Old BT Junction Box - What should i do with it? :)

Hi All,

Just moved into a house that has one of the old old BT Junction Boxes from the 60's / 70's and it has an old master socket feeding off from it.

I have an order placed for ADSL2 with Fibre being available in the next few months so i am thinking about replacing this box. Its also in the hallway looking just beautiful. I want to move into the loft... the line comes into the house from the roof.

I know its OpenReach property and i guess ill have to pay them to replace it, my question is... is it worth replacing? will i gain any speed / better service by replacing it?

No phones will be used on this line, router will be plugged directly into master / test socket.

Thanks in advance for any replies!

J

If there is one phone socket, and only one, then its current set up will not be detrimental to ADSL or VDSL services.

I would strongly suggest that if you wish to have the line shifted in to the loft , you get your Voice CP to get Openreach in and shift it.

I found what claimed to be a genuine BT master socket with filtered face plate on ebay. Nothing on it to suggest that it is a genuine BT socket, but it works fine.

Whether you gain any performance improvement depends in part on how strong the signal from the exchange is when it gets to your property.

I have found keeping routers out of the way in the attic convenient.

Do not touch it yourself. Get it moved by OR - arranged through your voice service provider.

Could any cable guy do it? i just bought the house so if anything comes of it.. ill say it was like it when i moved in?

OR will do it for £130 i believe, socket shift.

In reply to a post by WarioTBH:

Could any cable guy do it? i just bought the house so if anything comes of it.. ill say it was like it when i moved in?

If it is just one socket, there will be no real difference. If you move it, you are likely to cause a fault and a huge headache for yourself.

In reply to a post by WarioTBH:

I know its OpenReach property and i guess ill have to pay them to replace it, my question is... is it worth replacing? will i gain any speed / better service by replacing it?

No phones will be used on this line, router will be plugged directly into master / test socket.

Thanks in advance for any replies!

J

That depends. When you look at the junction box, does it have one cable going in and one cable coming out?

Many old installations were to a 'star' type layout whereby you had multiple phones in a house, all going back to the junction box rather than the master socket as it is now.

If it's literally one going in and one going out, you won't have any problems keeping it. The only thing that may affect you is if the terminations inside the box are corroded.

By law only Openreach can replace it. What you do with it is entirely at your own risk since as you've mentioned, it's Openreach property.

Do you have a picture of it?

If there are no hardwired extension into the back of the master then you won't see any advantage in replacing with a new master socket. Provided any extensions are connected via the socket on the front (and fed through a filter if they are voice only) it will fine. You can use a microfilter of course, but it is possible to put an extension socket with built in filter and both voice/xDSL output next to the old master and wire up any (voice) extensions via the filtered output of the extension socket.

Not as neat of course, but legal and technically OK.

Like this (ignore the fact it says ADSL - they are just low-pass filters for the voice extension and work find for any xDSL service).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Combined-Filter-Telephone-S...

NO.

It is not your property to interfere with.

In reply to a post by MHC:

NO.

It is not your property to interfere with.

I moved/tidied up mine, figured it's in my house so why should I have to pay someone to enter my property and move something they badly installed in the first place.

Likewise, when I ditched Virgin I cut the cable entering my property.

Presumably you would also move/cut the gas pipes? The contract with BT covers this - whether it is in your house or not it is still their property.

Friendly BT engineer's advice to anyone tempted to cut their phone cable for repositioning or whatever: you wouldn't cut a live mains cable in one pass because the cutting blade would short-circuit the two or three conductors therein. Similarly your phone cable contains one or two pairs of wires which if short-circuited may damage the equipment in the exchange.

If you really must perform this illegal operation, strip back the outer casing and cut each wire one at a time. But my friend has seen more than one DIY disaster and strongly advises against it.

Perhaps you would like to experience a 400v shock when touching telecoms equipment where someone had wired up something incorrectly?

As others mention: every service provider has a demarcation point - gas, electrics, water, telecoms and you cannot interfere with anything before that point and potentially afterwards.

"Similarly your phone cable contains one or two pairs of wires which if short-circuited may damage the equipment in the exchange."

LOL no it will not.

Of course it won't, and you know it. It would be just as easy to create the a short circuit in your household wiring as that's essentially the same two wires (and a derived ring line) with the same nominal 48V DC on it. Also, short circuits happen all the time - the equipment is designed to deal with it.

The real reason why the OR cabling shouldn't be tampered with is nothing to do with that, but to define a "clean" demarcation point where the responsibility of the supplier ends and that of the consumer begins. If it was open season on OR cabling, then it could cause all sorts of costs and disputes over who was responsible for any faults in that area.

No I wouldn't touch a gas pipe or the incoming electricity supply. This is just a low voltage cable.

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

The real reason why the OR cabling shouldn't be tampered with is nothing to do with that, but to define a "clean" demarcation poimake nt where the responsibility of the supplier ends and that of the consumer begins. If it was open season on OR cabling, then it could cause all sorts of costs and disputes over who was responsible for any faults in that area.

So if a house is star wired, where is the demarcation point?

I would argue that Ofcom should make BT provide a master socket with a detachable faceplate FOC.

No I wouldn't touch a gas pipe or the incoming electricity supply. This is just a low voltage cable.

So because you perceive the risk as reduced that makes it OK ?

So If I come round and unplug your freezer, that's OK ? There's little or no chance of me harming myself, a good chance I might not get caught, what harm could it do ?

Your logic is flawed.

I would argue that Ofcom should make BT provide a master socket with a detachable faceplate FOC.

I think the DVLC should make garages come and fit anti lock brakes on all cars without it FOC ...... ?????

Maybe because all my working life I've had to deal with and occasionally install network cabling I feel an Openreach cable isn't technically going to challenge me.

Still if someone could highlight any potential danger of death from a low voltage I'm all ears.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

The real reason why the OR cabling shouldn't be tampered with is nothing to do with that, but to define a "clean" demarcation poimake nt where the responsibility of the supplier ends and that of the consumer begins. If it was open season on OR cabling, then it could cause all sorts of costs and disputes over who was responsible for any faults in that area.

So if a house is star wired, where is the demarcation point?

I would argue that Ofcom should make BT provide a master socket with a detachable faceplate FOC.

There is no demarcation point in the absence of a Master Socket when a house is star wired.

However if the line ever develops a fault, a BT Engineer will install a Master Socket free of charge since you have no legal way of isolating extensions which may be wired to the junction box.

If you're concerned with performance speak to your ISP and explain that you are unable to isolate wiring due to the lack of a demarcation point. I believe in some circumstances, they can book an engineer appointment to install one.

Personally I would have had that rubbish out long ago but then I'm experienced and know what I'm doing.

Get your broadband provider to send an engineer, even if they charge an extra £50 for it, at least you'll get what you require.

You have missed the point, or are avoiding it.

The wiring up to and including the NTE belongs to Openreach, it is not yours to interfere with, the same as the gas, electric and water supplies in your property. Just because the risks are different, and it is in your property does not give you carte blanche to do what you will.

This thread indicates that the charge to get the job done by OR via your ISP is about £130 - any real life experiences out there who has had this work done and the total price paid? I personally would like all existing internal wiring abandoned and a new master socket fitted in a rear bedroom now used as a study. The wiring would be from the underground cable termination box at the front of the building possibly going through the loft to the rear bedroom. This could take some time to do so is it an hourly rate or a fixed price job?

It is an FTTC service to a privately sourced BT modem plugged into a very ancient small master socket [no lower half you can remove to isolate the numinous extensions that exist] using an ADSL filter. Then it is a self install CAT5e cable run to the rear bedroom where the router is located.

In reply to a post by chris6273:

There is no demarcation point in the absence of a Master Socket when a house is star wired.

However if the line ever develops a fault, a BT Engineer will install a Master Socket free of charge since you have no legal way of isolating extensions which may be wired to the junction box.

I have had that done. When the man came to do the work, he did say that he was under pressure to do work that is chargeable to the customer.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I would argue that Ofcom should make BT provide a master socket with a detachable faceplate FOC.

I think the DVLC should make garages come and fit anti lock brakes on all cars without it FOC ...... ?????

I own my car and can work on it as I see fit, but if I rented it, I would expect it to come with anti lock brakes.

You should differentiate between star wiring and extensions wired directly from the master. The "star wiring" is simply an internal extension network system which contrasts with a "daisy chained" topology, and it's possible to have a combination. Either can be implemented by direct wiring from the back of an old master (with or without socket), from the front socket of a master or via the faceplate IDC extension connectors.

To return to the point of direct-wired master extensions, these are historical and will be swapped out as faults are found and/or when there is cause for any other engineering work. The legislation for this was set out prior to BT's privatisation in 1984 as part of the network liberalisation process. There was no provision for changing existing wiring pre-emptively due to the costs involved, and I'm not sure that Ofcom have the power to compel OR to do this (if so, the costs involved would have to be built into the regulatory pricing model).

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

In reply to a post by chris6273:

There is no demarcation point in the absence of a Master Socket when a house is star wired.

However if the line ever develops a fault, a BT Engineer will install a Master Socket free of charge since you have no legal way of isolating extensions which may be wired to the junction box.

I have had that done. When the man came to do the work, he did say that he was under pressure to do work that is chargeable to the customer.

If you do get charged for it then you need to dispute this with your ISP since legally you're not able to touch the cabling unless an NTE is installed.

Ring your voice supplier and ask for a quote, I *believe* it is all done for a fixed price.

From what you describe the only issue might be that the engineer is within his rights to decline to work in your loft if not boarded out satisfactorily.

but if I rented it, I would expect it to come with anti lock brakes.

And if it didn't ?

I think the DVLC should make garages come and fit anti lock brakes on all cars without it FOC ...... ?????

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

but if I rented it, I would expect it to come with anti lock brakes.

And if it didn't ?

I think the DVLC should make garages come and fit anti lock brakes on all cars without it FOC ...... ?????

That might depend when I found out!

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

You should differentiate between star wiring and extensions wired directly from the master. The "star wiring" is simply an internal extension network system which contrasts with a "daisy chained" topology, and it's possible to have a combination. Either can be implemented by direct wiring from the back of an old master (with or without socket), from the front socket of a master or via the faceplate IDC extension connectors.

I thought the term star was used to describe situations where there is a junction box to provide a split to a second socket, before the master socket.

In reply to a post by TheEulerID:

To return to the point of direct-wired master extensions, these are historical and will be swapped out as faults are found and/or when there is cause for any other engineering work. The legislation for this was set out prior to BT's privatisation in 1984 as part of the network liberalisation process. There was no provision for changing existing wiring pre-emptively due to the costs involved, and I'm not sure that Ofcom have the power to compel OR to do this (if so, the costs involved would have to be built into the regulatory pricing model).

I don't claim to know exactly what powers OFCOM has at the moment. However the situation has changed since the '80s. BT's bacon has probably been saved by the introduction of DSL technologies, despite the onslaught of mobile phones. But DSL technologies make the positioning of sockets much more critical. If BT want to charge much the same for providing a new style master socket as fixing a fault they can hardly be surprised if some of their customers just do the work themselves. They could offer a 2 week FOC service to make it easier to allocate staff.

Sorry about the delayed response - I do understand your point. The incoming cable is Openreach property, so I understand I shouldn't touch it.

Take one large hammer hit it, then report it was broke when you moved in and get them to send or out OR chap as your voice phone does not work, then ask for it to be moved when they come to fix it,

In reply to a post by APTMAN:

... as your voice phone does not work ....

Wossa non-voice phone guv?

Presumably one that you use only for this or a textphone as used by the deaf