Is this the master socket

I'm trying to work out whether I have a master socket or not. I don't think I do but hopefully someone can confirm for me. I have two phone sockets, both identical in appearance front and rear.

This is what the front looks like:

Front view

And this is what the reverse looks like:

Rear view

I assume that's not a master socket? Assuming it's not then can I replace it with a chrome face plate that is a master socket? For example this one on Amazon says it is a master socket https://goo.gl/iSvFce

Is it relatively easy to wire? I don't want to book a third appointment and a third day off work for Openreach. Plus Openreach will just install a bog standard white box master socket which the landlord probably won't permit anyway.

Seems like the natural solution is to do it myself if it's possible.

Advice appreciated.

Not a master socket, but what are you hoping to achieve?

The one you linked to may just be the same as what you have now, a master socket has support for extensions built into it.

Thanks. I live in a studio flat with two sockets already so I don't need any extensions. My broadband keeps disconnecting. I had the same issue at my last apartment and following advice here I moved the router to the master socket and it fixed everything with a rock solid connection.

I'm expecting that if I replace the existing face plate shown in the photo with a master socket face plate (I think they have a capacitor?) I will get a better more stable connection and end the disconnects. Does that sound reasonable? They're only £6 so worth trying if I can wire it myself.

Thanks for the speedy response.

We need the rear view of both.

Thanks Roberto. I believe they're identical. I checked for any wiring or component differences but they appear identical. If you still think it matters let me know and I'll take a photo but visually they appeared the same front and rear.

There has to be a master somewhere. Possibly in a meter cupboard or utility space. These types of socket look pretty but are a PITA for broadband.

Have you asked your neighbours what sort of connections they have?

Is there a communal system for all the flats in the building?

I don't have the problem.

was aimed at op

It's a former office block converted into separate residential apartments. There are about 20 apartments in the block and the distribution point for the building is on the ground floor in a utility room. There's something that looks exactly like a master socket in the foyer where the post boxes are located but there's no phone cable connected. I've had two Openreach engineers but neither of them batted an eyelid over the face plate. However my ISP saw my photos and wanted to arrange a third Openreach engineer to come out and replace the socket with a master socket as they don't believe I have one inside the apartment and believe it would likely resolve my disconnection issues.

Not really sure what else I can add. As I've mentioned above I'm holding off on the third Openreach appointment if possible.

The picture you show looks to me like an RJ45 socket, as I use for my home wired ethernet network. I say this because there could be 8 wires connected to it.

I do also have a socket module like that which accepts a standard BT phone plug 431A. It only allows 6 wires to be connected to it. The one I have is not a master, but there may be a master version.

I would first of all find what the socket is connected to. In theory it should be a master socket.

The first 2 faceplate images you posted are of a RJ45 Module on a metal face plate, which is mostly used for either combined phone / data, data or LAN, but looking at the back image it looks more like Ethernet (i.e. LAN).

Either way that is not a master socket, if its used for a DSL connection then it will "most probably" be fitted to the master socket some place else.

It might also be used for an internal LAN using Cat cable.
Try and find where it leads to.

This is an image of a NTE5A Master Socket with all its fate plates.

Paul

It's definitely a 431A. I plug my ISP's supplied microfilter in to the face plate which splits the line into standard phone and RJ45 sockets.

As has been discussed, the master could well be in a bank of them in the utility room.

Converting one of your two sockets to a master will not help, and could well make things worse, as having two master sockets is not recommended.

Do you use both your sockets, and if so what is connected to each and are you using dangly filters in them?

In these housing developments often the master is in a central location. So my flat for example is top floor, on the ground floor is a utility cupboard with 4 electric meters and below it 4 BT master sockets which are caged up.

My flat and another have had their wiring cut, and the master down there bypassed. So my flat has a master internally but two others do not.

I feel like yours is going to be a similar setup.

Very common, as is the case in my flat the wiring runs from the master socket alongside the electrical wiring in the walls upto my flat. The issue running alongside the home electrical wiring is it causes a noisy unstable line.

In my flat the phone wiring alongside the electrical wiring failed the BT tests. Myself and the other line which bypasses the master downstairs have had our wiring rerouted up the staircase. No issues now.

I am tipping your issues are internal wiring running alongside all the electrical wiring. Like here we had 4 flats of electrical wiring and then the BT cabling wrapping around this. Imagine the interference of 4 homes electrical wiring... you mentioned yours is 20 so it could be much worse.

I would have a look around your whole building for a central location of masters.

Edited by ukhardy07 (Sun 07-May-17 21:36:34)

+1

It's a while since we had this sort of case, but I do remember this sort of thing. Possibly including your experience at the time.

Thanks everyone that is so helpful. My last reply was posted before I saw @Paul's reply so sorry about that Paul. I'm starting to get a better understanding. I thought I knew what a master socket looked like until I saw those Chrome ones on Amazon. Now I'm thinking there's more than one kind.

I have access to the distribution point in the utility room so I'll go and have a look. @RobertOs I just use one of the sockets at any time, I don't even plug in a phone. This afternoon I moved the router to the other socket to see if things improve. My router is connected to a micro-filter which is connected to the face plate. I get a good solid phone tone if I connect a test phone.

@UKHardy07 It feels like you're correct. I had disconnects in my last apartment which were resolved by bypassing the internal wiring and that was a new apartment so I expected the wiring to be good.

The cable behind my face plate has six wires, three are white and wired to one side of the face plate connector, the other three are green, blue and orange wired to the other side of the connector. The connector itself has slots for eight wires, two slots are empty.

I will forget about changing the face plate then as it seems it may make matters worse.

EDIT:

Okay here's a couple of photos of the distribution point...

Distribution point

...and again

And one Master socket with nothing connected in the foyer...

Master Socket

That is absolutely everything. Anything else is locked away and I can't get access.

Edited by deleted (Sun 07-May-17 22:16:09)

Are you able to remove the lower part of the master socket to reveal the socket behind?

If so, how good is your broadband connection if you connect your router to this internal socket?

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Are you able to remove the lower part of the master socket to reveal the socket behind?

If so, how good is your broadband connection if you connect your router to this internal socket?

That wouldn't help due to the OP said its outside their home (i.e. its in the foyer)

Paul

I can't remove the face plate to the master socket in the foyer no, sadly. It would also be difficult to test because my disconnections come and go. I'd have to sit in the foyer all day with a laptop

I haven't had any problems this afternoon since I moved the router to the other socket so I'm hoping it was interference on the first socket's wiring somewhere.

Can you post pics of the back of this second socket?

That master socket is the very latest version, that's a very new one so likely been changed recently

with so many flats it is unlikely that master belongs to you.

It would help to establish the cause of any poor performance. The lower part of the faceplate can be removed by squeezing the sides.

I'm going to hazard a guess that master is for the building and is for something like an alarm or something to call out. Possibly the fire alarm next to it.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

It would help to establish the cause of any poor performance. The lower part of the faceplate can be removed by squeezing the sides.

Not if its isn't for the OP line they cant, its located in the foyer, so there is more chances its not for their line.

Paul

And if it is for an alarm, would set it off if someone has been foolish enough to wire the device as an extension and not direct to the incoming line.

Leave the NTE in the lobby alone, it is almost certainly not yours.

Are the photos showing the insides of just one case ?

Are there smaller ones in utility cupboards on each floor ? There might be NTE's in there ?

Can we see good clear photos of the rear of both sockets please ?



p.s. Look in your utility cupboard , behind the water tank maybe ?

Thanks everyone. There are no other telephone sockets in the apartment, I'm sure of that, looked everywhere. There's one locked utility room on each floor of the building but again anything in there would be shared between apartments even if I could get access.

I'll take photos of the second socket tonight when I get home from work, front and back. The front is identical but maybe you can see something on the back that I missed. So far it seems more reliable but I've only been using it for one day.

Is what is the wiring like to the second socket in the flat...

i.e. is it star wired from another point in which case possible issues

If star wired then time to trace back to the point where the two meet and decide which socket you want live.

In reply to a post by edwinbradford:

Thanks everyone. There are no other telephone sockets in the apartment, I'm sure of that, looked everywhere. There's one locked utility room on each floor of the building but again anything in there would be shared between apartments even if I could get access.

I'll take photos of the second socket tonight when I get home from work, front and back. The front is identical but maybe you can see something on the back that I missed. So far it seems more reliable but I've only been using it for one day.

most apartments or even 3 floor houses don't tend to have correct fitted phone sockets, they tend to daisy chain them with out a master socket (which is just a plan socket like in your photo )

they just put the sockets in and run the extensions off the first socket which is likely the one closest to the flat front door then that will go to a distribution point in the building where your individual line comes from (norm in the entrance with the meters)

if you take the plate off the one with 2 sets of phone wire will be your main incoming line and the other phone cable should goto the second socket with should only have 1 phone wire (the whole white cable of 4) disconnect the 2 coloured cables that goes to the other extension socket (norm green,blue or orange colored)

i had to disconnect so many daisy chained phone extensions so only the Main incoming phone socket is live (norm near the front door) its not funny any more but easy fix

on the other socket it should have 2 of them purple cables going into it (first picture shown is likely the extension socket from the other one in your house) and the one with the main incoming line should be a BT master socket (most likely near front door in flat any way so landlord should have no problems with it or you just dont tell them

from the picture you have shone its obviously not been fitted by a phone engineer as all 6 cables have been pushed into it (only 2 should be used)

Edited by leexgx (Mon 08-May-17 10:26:45)

If identical, then somewhere else the two sets of wires meet and join to the incoming phone line, and you will want to at that point remove one of the 'extensions'

Okay here are the photos of the other socket.

Front of face plate

Rear of face plate

Looks the same to me. Does this tend to confirm what you thought? That they are two daisy chained sockets neither of which is a master socket?

Neither appears to have a capacitor, and neither two cables, one in and one out. There is a master socket somewhere else, otherwisethe circuit will be testing dis.

I'm wondering about the utility cupboard on your floor.

Or a utilitty cupboard in the OP flat ? As we both know the NTE can be in funny places , i have found them in the airing cuboard before now .

It " should " be in the flat but some years back with the so called 3M rule some funny things were done.

Completely agree mucker.

The others are asking about where your master socket may be. The importance of this is that once you are able to find it and gives us pictures of the back of the faceplate, we may be able to help you to another 1.5Mbps or more with a few minutes work from you.

You have to be careful removing the faceplate as all the wires on the back of those two sockets we hope are connected to the removable bit.

Wasn't the 3M rule only for CW1128 external cable coming into the property because of its high flammability?

That shouldn't be a problem here at all. It looks like it's 3 pair CW1308 from the DP here, which I presume is for internal distriibution into the flats. I think there are three flats per 10-pair block - which would be correct for one 3-pair per flat. And they're numbered. This cabling looks new and there are about twenty cables leaving the cabinet.

Are some of the flats still empty? There aren't many lines connected yet.

On the bottom strip on the right you'll see where the cable likely heads out to the master socket by the alarm box - and the emergency lift line too (the darker grey cable is probably labelled 'plant room').

The large multipair cable on the left which terminates on the 10 pair Krone strips is likely to be from the PCP outside.

The other picture here seems to have 3 x 20 pair and 1 x 30 pair cable terminations from various floors. Note that there looks to be a multipair cable in this picture (top left corner) which has been cut. I suspect this is all doing nothing and is left over from when the building was offices with a need for lots more phone lines on each floor.

If each flat gets its service from one of the 3-pair cables then I think it's a bit less likely that there would be master sockets in a centralized location on each floor, otherwise why not run a large multipair up to each floor and break it out there?

The way I usally find out what's going on is to trace the telephone cables with a toner set or cable tracer and see where the cable runs inside and out of the flat. If there's no master socket on that part, it's probably in the utility cupboard.

Just out of curiosity, if there was no master would it theoretically work but poorly - or not at all?

Pass.

No master - phone would work, some very old phones might not ring.

DSL wise no difference, only issue is the star wiring (apparent)

Ok so likely no master & star wired in this instance. Not really ideal.

Nope its when we were told to only run cable for 3M once in the EUs property, unless they paid for more cable.

Another issue is that the line with no NTE across it would fail remote testing as 'dis(connected)' Not technically an issue, but a stumbling block to fault reporting and the like ....

Does that mean it's possible to check if a master socket actually exists on the line? If so, how?

If you are a BT customer then there are some line tests that you can run I think by dialing 151 (not 17070). IIRC these tests give some error if there are 3 (or more I presume) master sockets. It is quite possible that the tests would also report an error if there are no master sockets.

I find it surprising that Openreach have activated a line without a master socket, if this is indeed the case.

Does that mean it's possible to check if a master socket actually exists on the line? If so, how?

Physically connecting a JDSU or Exfo across the pair and testing towards the customer .... those of us who are somewhat older might use an SA9083 multi meter to 'look' for the capacitance kick of the capacitor in the NTE (you can even see an ADSLFTTC router attempting to make a connection, or if there's a phone connected)

The 'cap kick' of an NTE is what the most basic of remote line tests is 'looking' for. The old CSS RAT test would return a message saying 'bells A and B line test OK' or summit similar.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Does that mean it's possible to check if a master socket actually exists on the line? If so, how?

Check for a 470k resistance between pins 3 and 5 (if correctly wired) or pins 3 and 2 (incorrect wiring). If it's there, you've got a master socket. If it's open circuit, there's no master socket.

Uh?

Pin 3 on a huge number of installations isn't connected, particularly at the master. Not forgetting the question was about remote testing.

Pin 3 on a master will always be connected internally with a 470k resistor to pin 5 and 1.8uF capacitor to pin 2.

So a simple check with a meter will confirm it as a master.


Remote testing will show an open circuit if there is no phone or mater on the line. The 470k resistor is known as the out-of-service resistor and is there to allow remote testing (routining) when no phones are connected.

But there are only two wires coming in to attach the tester to. No pins at all. The only way the test suggested could work at all is if one incoming goes from the A or B connector for that, (I don't know which way round incoming wires should connect and not worth googling as you will), and the other of A and B goes to 2 or 5. Is that how the wiring works?

In either case the remote tester has no options.

It is possibly implied in Zarjaz's post that the A terminal goes to pin 3, in the light of Sarah and your posts. Still no pins to choose from remotely, though the possibility of her correct/incorrect wiring could apply.

If my assumption that the 3-Pair CW1308 cables coming from the downstairs distribution cable are the flats' incoming phone lines is correct, then there's definitely something between those and the cables coming into the extension sockets pictured by the OP - as they seem to be using purple cable which is likely LSZH Cat5 or Cat5e.

Note that pin 3 on this extension socket is defintely connected, hence my suggestion.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

But there are only two wires coming in to attach the tester to. No pins at all.

You test from the extension socket in the flat using an adapter like one of these or one of these

Ahhhh. Sorry .

I was forgetting we are discussing this particular setup with that rack.

In reply to a post by caffn8me:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

But there are only two wires coming in to attach the tester to. No pins at all.

You test from the extension socket in the flat ...

Only just seen this. As I said earlier, BatBoy's question was about remote testing. You are talking here about local testing.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Another issue is that the line with no NTE across it would fail remote testing as 'dis(connected)' Not technically an issue, but a stumbling block to fault reporting and the like ....

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Does that mean it's possible to check if a master socket actually exists on the line? If so, how?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

As I said earlier, BatBoy's question was about remote testing. You are talking here about local testing.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Does that mean it's possible to check if a master socket actually exists on the line? If so, how?

As far as I can ascertain, BatBoy's question was decidedly non-specific about testing location

Look at the post that gave rise to it. I gave you both. Check I haven't fiddled the juxtaposition if you like but I assure you I haven't.

There is no need for posters habitually to quote all of or from the post they are replying to. The forum chaining/linking system in both threaded and flat mode makes it unnecessary. Quoting is only needed at all if there is possible confusion or to highlight a specific point.

Sorry, I did mean remote testing and I think Zarjaz's answer confirmed remote testing is possible

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Does that mean it's possible to check if a master socket actually exists on the line? If so, how?

Physically connecting a JDSU or Exfo across the pair and testing towards the customer

Your answer is equally helpful

Edited by deleted (Wed 10-May-17 18:46:58)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Your answer is equally helpful

I agree about that with reference to the specific case of this thread . There's no way I have the knowledge to argue with Sarah or MHC over the technical side.

It did indeed

If one had the directory number a remote test would easily prove the presence of an NTE 'somewhere' on the circuit.

Sorry for the slow response, I wanted to leave the connection running in the second socket for a few days before posting an update.

Since moving the router to the second socket I believe there's been a significant improvement in stability. In the last few days I've only seen one disconnection whereas in the other socket it would disconnect every few minutes at certain times of the day.

I'm going to surmise that the other socket is picking up interference from somewhere and that the second socket I'm now using has a better route to the master socket wherever that is in the building.

Depending on the resolution etc of the JDSU and the distances between the NTEs, it should be possible to check from the various NTEs in the house, with a bit of subsequent comparison of the results from each.

That's from the experience of using a TDR for several years, mainly on Ethernet circuits and occasionally on multi-wire circuits similar to phone wiring, when there were problems on that side of the company.

The TDR, Time Domain Reflectometer, was my "Pocket Radar Set"; and the JDSU works in a similar manner, for those who are unaware of that type of instrumentation.

Saved a lot of time, when trying to locate faults in cables; and also confirming that new cables were properly functional.

Also used it with an oscilloscope, to demonstrate the 180 Degree difference between reflections from Open-Circuits and Short-Circuits.

-----------

It may also be necessary to use an extension lead, say 10 Metres or longer, to connect the JDSU to the NTEs, due to the probable short lengths between the NTEs.

This would move the various NTEs to beyond/outside the "grass" distance/area seen in the centre on a typical PPI Radar display.

Edited by deleted (Tue 16-May-17 19:04:08)