Telephone line USO

Not sure which part to post this in, but does anyone have the 'latest' on how the BT (and KCom) USO for the provision of telephone services will be changed with the move to VOIP?

Particular queries at the moment are for those customers who do not have (or need) broadband, and how much 'copper' is going to disappear from where, or will it just be disconnected at the cabinets?

I believe that for BT customers that don't want broadband BT would provide a basic DSL/FTTP service that just carries the digital voice connection and would be provided with some form of router that allows the phone to be connected to it (but not deliver usable broadband to them).

However, it may well be that as we get further along that the industry might create new ways to do this (ie might have a basic box that just has a telephone port on it that deals with the DSL/FTTP connection - but that might not be worth their while for the relatively small number of people without broadband that want a phone line.

There will still need to be a broadband connection, ian, It is this connection I am unsure of.

It'll be FTTP if available or DSL if not. It will just be provided as a connection that the user cannot use and will only be for digital voice.

So, you are saying the existing copper/aluminium lines to properties will remain in place? How will they connect to broadband?. I assume FTTC cabinets will eventually be phased out.

Not to confuse WLR (aka PSTN) retirement - that is effectively no more public dial-tone, for another way of describing it, at the end of 2025 with the removal of copper to the premises.

The latter is likely to be with us into the 2030’s or until FTTP is much more broadly deployed. A long way to go yet.

Yes, copper will stay until FTTP is finished which is definitely going to be later than the digital voice move. This is about removing the BT back end exchange equipment that manages the old voice network and moving it to a fully IP based digital phone system (VoIP but in BT Retails case a closed system VoIP that you cannot use as a standards based VoIP system).

So, how will broadband be connected to properties via copper until 2030 (ish)? Same as now, via cabinets? Presumably lines will be disconnected in the cabinet when FTTP exists. When does that start?

In my village, which is extremely unlikely to have any FTTP by 2025, that presumably means a lot of extra FTTC connections. Where will the capacity come from?

Can I ask where the two of you are getting your info from since I have not found this stuff on any OfCom site?

Edited by mikejp (Fri 11-Feb-22 13:51:40)

There is No scheduled plan yet to recover the copper network. If there is no FTTP by 2025 then existing broadband will still be available to provide telephone, either from the exchange or FTTC.

So, thousands, if not millions of new FTTC connections? All planned in?

As said where FTTP is not available at a premises, then it will continue via SOGEA (basically FTTC without the underlying PSTN back to the exchange) and via SOTAP (basically ADSL again without the underlying PSTN element)

The programme has already started - you may have heard of the FTTP Priority Exchange programme - however they aren’t (pro)actively recovering copper as said.

There is lots of info out there both from Openreach and Ofcom which covers the timescales etc. I’ll link to it later when I emerge from meetings.

Exchange based broadband will satisfy most where they don't have an existing broadband service. Those out of reach will either be on the programme for FTTP or an alternative method e.g. 4g or possibly even LEO satellite service

Of course, but what are the plans to offer the greatly increased FTTC cabinet connections that would be required?

Its an interesting angle you are taking on this which I hadn't previously considered about FTTC capacity.

Don't need an FTTC connection to deliver the phone USO. Just a basic broadband service will suffice .

But surely BT aren't going to be providing via ADSL exchange based equipment so expectation would presumably be that they would provide FTTC if that is what is delivered to that area? Which does indeed beg the OPs question as to how many upgrades will be need to street cabs to support the current people that don't have broadband but do have a phone line.

I doubt if many new cabinets will be required. Ofcom reckons 95% of UK households can get over 30Mbps already, with 97% having internet access. Many of those will have lower speed FTTC available or already on VM which is not affected in the same way as Openreach suppliers.

A phone service requires tiny bandwith. Sipgate says:

Most calls require around 64kbps of bandwidth and you can make around 12 calls concurrently using 1mbps of bandwidth and to be able to hold 120 calls at the same time you’d need 10Mbps of bandwidth.

Plus of course mobile phone services are now widespread even if their broadband speeds are negligible.

I do hope someone else has thought of it! Seeing the OMR gradings for my county and the performance of HMG so far leads me to be concerned that the amount of government money available will not be enough to fill the commercial gaps. Therefore either FTTC or wireless broadband (please not satellite!) will be needed. Wireless again problematical. Progress on mast sharing is poor and there are loads of not and poor spots around. Barely 2g in places.

witchunt - where is "a basic broadband service" going to come from if not FTTC or wireless/satellite? VM coverage is non-existent.

All but a handful of exchanges have ADSL equipment capable of supporting a low bandwidth connection for most that don't already have a broadband service. The copper will still be connected to years to come

I would have thought the majority of households with a telephone service but no broadband would be typically the more elderly so more likely than not to be BT Retail customers.

So the question is, are BT retail going to be terminating their telephone line service or switching them to a VOIP solution needing a broadband carrier to provide the VOIP and if so is this likely to be a SOGEA service rather than SOTAP or wireless or 4G or satellite?

Edit: Replaced FTTC with SOGEA and replaced ADSL with SOTAP

Edited by deleted (Fri 11-Feb-22 16:16:58)

But we all know there isn't the physical capacity in the FTTC network to supply 97% on the country with an FTTC connection.
Fortunately FTTC is just one option.

Probably SOTAP.

As said line only needs around 128 Kbps to function adequately for voice.

SoTAP is the openreach product for a basic phone service over broadband metallic path between the customer premises and the exchange.

I thought ADSL used to run from the exchange on 'copper' not fibre, so if the exchange 'copper' is going..................? I am 4.5 miles from my exchange and when earlier on ADSL the performance was dreadful.

The exchange copper is not going anywhere for years yet.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Probably SOTAP.

As said line only needs around 128 Kbps to function adequately for voice.

Yeah I do realise that, when I made refer to ADSL I meant SOTAP and when I said FTTC I meant SOGEA

In reply to a post by witchunt:

SoTAP is the openreach product for a basic phone service over broadband metallic path between the customer premises and the exchange.

Its going to be a nightmare if over SOTAP, my old ADSL line went down for hours just at the mention of thunder although no issues with the telephone service that run over the same cable from the exchange.

Interesting, thanks. When in service and how does it connect to lines not in the FTTC cab? Is the 'old' copper path still there in the 'old' cab?

Excuse my 'supplementary', but will it carry the 48v supply?

Same copper as always . Power will have to supplied locally ( home)

In reply to a post by mikejp:

Can I ask where the two of you are getting your info from since I have not found this stuff on any OfCom site?

Some resource links...Openreach (BT Group) are driving this and Ofcom have variously stated they are strategically supporting their plans, and they will move regulatory and other pricing controls as needed in the transition.

Openreach - All IP Programme - Update, January 2022

Openreach - All IP FAQ

Openreach - WLR Withdrawal Youtube video

Openreach landing page for Transitioning copper services to IP voice services

BT Wholesale - The Journey to all-IP

In reply to a post by mikejp:

Excuse my 'supplementary', but will it carry the 48v supply?

No, there won't be any power on the telephone pair.

As mentioned already the copper isn't going anywhere.
Only PSTN is being closed (phone calls with a dial tone).

Take BT as an example.
Anyone who wants a simple phone only service will be provided with a BT Hub. It will connect as a very low bandwidth connection to either the FTTC cabinet or to the exchange.
The phone gets plugged in to the hub.

They have thought about capacity. Millions will be forced on to FTTP easing capacity in the FTTC cabinets.
Where necessary they can increase capacity on cabinets.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

Interesting, thanks. When in service and how does it connect to lines not in the FTTC cab? Is the 'old' copper path still there in the 'old' cab?

Yes, the old copper path continues to exist all the way from premises via the PCP ('old' cabinets) to the exchange.

Eventually FTTP will replace this, but FTTP network build-out needs to happen first of course.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

[...]
They have thought about capacity. Millions will be forced on to FTTP easing capacity in the FTTC cabinets.
Where necessary they can increase capacity on cabinets.

There will no doubt be issues and wrinkles here and there. But an awful lot of planning has gone into this change - Openreach are not jumping into this blind by any stretch of the imagination.

Pheasant - useful links, thanks. I note no mention of SOTAP in the Jan 22 PDF! Presumably hot off the press?

The overall concept of SOTAP has been around for a while, but a strict technical definition has not been published (yet). As the name suggests it's a transitional product.

I believe they were awaiting the final outcome/learnings of the Mildenhall exchange trial and SOTAP pilot before finalising the spec. However that apparently got kicked into the long grass due to some issue.

The official launch is still in August this year (I think).

See page 7 of this newsletter...

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cpp...

In reply to a post by witchunt:

But we all know there isn't the physical capacity in the FTTC network to supply 97% on the country with an FTTC connection.
Fortunately FTTC is just one option.

As per one of my links: "In 2020, the overall share of households in the United Kingdom (UK) that had access to the internet was 97 percent". Basically any (reasonably reliable) connection will do for VOIP. And my first link said that 95% have access to over 30Mbps.

mikejp

OR offer a 128Kb service which is what BT will use to provide BTVoice. There will be no ability to use it as a BB connection.

Mikep

You can run it over ADSL from the exchange, it does not have to be FTTC. There are very few premises that cannot get ADSL ( at 128Kb BW) and BT will have plans on how to serve these. In theory you can run BT Voice over EEs mobile network

In addition OR are targeting 26m FTTP connections by 2026 so by the time PSTN is completely removed there will be around 21m FTTP connections in place. Some little exchanges are already FTTP only provision as they have exceeded the 75% FTTP premises served.

In addition OR are targeting 26m FTTP connections by 2026 so by the time PSTN is completely removed there will be around 21m FTTP connections in place.

I think we need to be more careful with the wording here. The target is to build coverage to 26m, but there is no way on earth there will 26m FTTP connections by 2026.

Some hefty "acceleration" of the rollout will be needed just to make the 26M premises passed figure. At the current rate of 50K prem. passed per week build, its not going to happen until early 2029

Witchunt

Sorry for the lax wording, I was meaning passed not working. But with PSTN withdrawal I believe take-up will be high in areas with only ADSL or restricted VDSL capacity as the ADSL equipment will also be on it's last legs by then. I recognise that you will not be aware of BTW / BTRetail plans for ADSL equipment, but they must be thinking about it's wear-out. (Especially with it's high power consumption / cost ) .

And PSTN cease means non-headend exchanges can be closed. Considerable value in the scrapping of their electrical and electronic contents. Ending of leases also a consideration, though how many would benefit from early termination depends on how smart the regional staff were when they were sold and leased back.

Ten years ago I could have asked my wife about that 😳.

The savings could well outweigh the cost of add-on boxes to FTTC cabs and PCPs to cater for non-broadband households in their coverage.

Interesting thread, thanks all. I was on the point of posting a similar question, but this has answered everything I wanted to know. There are a number of older folks in my village in this situation, and if necessary I want to be able to explain clearly what their options will be.

Seems like the PSTN will be switched off but the lights at the local exchanges will remain on for many years

I don't think the exchange closure programme starts until 2030 and is only about 100 to begin with. I think SOTAP will be around for a while after that.

The actuaries and bean counters deep within BT Group must’ve run the figures on which of the bigger, city and perhaps some urban exchanges closures will save them the most cash.

The little tin sheds in the highlands probably don’t figure and they’ll cost out running in copper for decades. For everyone else the sooner they can move to fibre the better. Dual running platforms is ruinous.

In reply to a post by dect:

Seems like the PSTN will be switched off but the lights at the local exchanges will remain on for many years

Yes. Realistically, it can't really be any other way. Nor would it really be sensible to do it another way.

Obviously the focus of many on these forums is the build-out of FTTP. But for a great many others, i.e. those who have a reliable and fast-enough FTTC connection, the current arrangements (in terms of broadband) are quite suitable / adequate.

Demands of coirse may well shift over time - e.g. domestic demand for higher bandwidth connectivity driven by ever higher definition video or immersive games / experiences.

In reply to a post by binary:

Yes. Realistically, it can't really be any other way. Nor would it really be sensible to do it another way.

Obviously the focus of many on these forums is the build-out of FTTP. But for a great many others, i.e. those who have a reliable and fast-enough FTTC connection, the current arrangements (in terms of broadband) are quite suitable / adequate.

Demands of coirse may well shift over time - e.g. domestic demand for higher bandwidth connectivity driven by ever higher definition video or immersive games / experiences.

I was referring to the fact that if SOTAP is used to supply those with voice only services after the PSTN has been switched off the requirement to have copper going all the way back to the local exchange would still be required so the exchange couldn't be handed back after all the other kit/services have been scrapped or moved. Those still with SOGEA or FTTC services already go back to headend exchanges which in a lot of cases isn't the local exchange .

Edited by deleted (Sat 12-Feb-22 11:38:42)

In reply to a post by dect:

I was referring to the fact that if SOTAP is used to supply those with voice only services after the PSTN has been switched off the requirement to have copper going all the way back to the local exchange would still be required so the exchange couldn't be handed back after all the other kit/services have been scrapped or moved. Those still with SOGEA or FTTC services already go back to headend exchanges which in a lot of cases isn't the local exchange .

True. I guess it may become economic for Openreach (BT Group) to install extra FTTC cabinets to provide SOGEA to replace SOTAP and so allow the local exchange to be fully vacated, if FTTP build-out is still some way in the distance.

Dect

The lights will be off already, as you know they are mostly unmanned and only visited to change PSTN / ADSL terminations ( Or make a cup of tea/coffee)

In reply to a post by kitcat:

Dect

The lights will be off already, as you know they are mostly unmanned and only visited to change PSTN / ADSL terminations ( Or make a cup of tea/coffee)

I know you're right but back in my day they were a hive of activity day and night (well the ones on my patch were) and the lights were never off

I would like to explore this a little further now.

What will happen to the Telephone USO? Currently BT and I believe KCom are involved in that. Forgive my ignorance on this, but is it not going to get extremely complicated?

Firstly we have the cost of SOTAP - presumably some sort of equipment and work in the exchange? Is that part of the USO? Is it free to those customers who need it? What about the router or whatever it will be called?

Secondly those who need FTTC connections. Will the 'connection charge' and possible new cabs be 'free'? Now those without a useable router who will need a VOIP adapter? Is any cost for all this born by the ISP or BT/KCom? Where would Virgin fit in all this?

I assume all FTTP fibre routers will be useable without additions?

Lastly, the cost of the VOIP phones themselves and UPS?

mikejp

The Telephone USO is only applicable to presently unserved premises.

The max cost to BT/KCOM is £3400 at present. If it costs more than this to serve the customer has to pay the excess.

At present this remains the case. As such if a premises is not served with Telephone service at present BT /KCOM have to see how much it costs. In the future where copper does not exist they will have to use Fibre or a 'fixed' mobile connection. If this costs more than £3400 they will be able to charge the customer the excess ( if they agree to pay). I am aware of some sites that would have cost £100k + by copper this is unlikely to change except where Mobile is available.( "shooting lodges" in Scotland were often in this category) But other not spots exist in all parts of the country.

Agreed, kk, but it could be a moot point whether a premise became 'unserved'.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

At present this remains the case. As such if a premises is not served with Telephone service at present BT /KCOM have to see how much it costs.

Thanks kitcat for seemingly being one of the few on this site who knows that the difference between premises where we live, shop or booze, and a basic assumption (a premise, or of course several related assumptions; premises) .

Thanks so much, admonishment accepted. Anything useful to contribute to the topic?

Of course, it should be "Thanks, kitcat," shouldn't it?

Now back on topic?

Edited by mikejp (Mon 14-Feb-22 08:45:05)

You're in "good?" company? Such as Andrew (MrSaffron).

And for several years the BT Wholesale checker had both, on the same page.

If you want to know everything there is to know then actually ask a company dealing with it all. This is a forum where people do their best to help others.

"actually ask a company dealing with it all" Good idea. Who?

The telephone USO hasn't changed.
Openreach are still responsible for the 1st £3,400.
The customer only needs a telephone, just like before.

The rental from Openreach for the new low bandwidth product is 100% identical to the rental for PSTN.

Capacity is the responsibility of Openreach. Don't worry about cabinet capacity. Customers don't pay for that. The service can be provided from the exchange anyway.

The connection charge for FTTC is less than that of a new line activation. Providers often absorb this if taken with a broadband service.

For most people with an existing PSTN service their provider will migrate them free of charge to the new VOIP service.

For anyone taking a new voice only service the likes of BT already charge over £100 to activate a new line. The cost of activating a VOIP service will be more than likely be the same.

I understand people's concerns but you really are overthinking this.
It's changing from PSTN to VOIP, that's all.
There have always been hundreds of changes occurring in the background on the network that customers are unaware of.
What happens with Openreach's hardware is of no concern to the customer.
The use of landlines is dropping. I don't expect capacity to be an issue.

The customer may need to be provided some additional hardware to establish a connection. That's all they need to know and will be documented to them at the time. Pricing will likely be the same.

Calling a provider and asking is useless. Nobody is currently selling this.

Also my apologies to you Mike. It's just a decades-long bee in the bonnet I have and occasionally I still go on about it.

Thanks, John. Useful info

"There have always been hundreds of changes occurring in the background on the network that customers are unaware of." Indeed, John, but very few, if any, directly affect a customer, do they?

"The customer may need to be provided some additional hardware to establish a connection. That's all they need to know and will be documented to them at the time. Pricing will likely be the same." Same as what? - router all included in the 'line rental' or whatever it will be called?

"Calling a provider and asking is useless. Nobody is currently selling this." Indeed. Perhaps a useful note for one recent 'helper' on here.

Pricing will likely be the same for a voice only service, even with a router provided.
The Openreach pricing is identical. Routers don't cost the likes of BT much.

BT may choose to make a smaller/less capable version of their Smart Hub for anyone who wants a voice only service after PSTN is gone. It would save them money stripping out WiFi etc but they usually prefer to just have a single device in anticipation of the customer upgrading to a broadband service.

Some other providers will drop out of the voice only market completely.
Sky & Talktalk for example don't sell voice only.
I expect more to take that approach rather than develop solutions for a shrinking market.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

"Calling a provider and asking is useless. Nobody is currently selling this." Indeed. Perhaps a useful note for one recent 'helper' on here.

Mike

Its great you're raising this important topic but by your own admission if no one is currently selling it then information will be limited until they do and anything that is considered official is subject to change.

The only companies selling a Voce USO product are by definition BT and KCOM.

If you are in Salisbury and are not served at present for Voice service BT will provide you a voice only service on FTTP. There are other geographies ( not whole exchange areas yet) where this will also apply.

However most of these are not where most people think of when considering the Voice USO.

If you are miles from anywhere and unserved at present the cost is still likely to be above £3k and you will by definition not be in an FTTP area! So copper will still be the default choice. There may be a few places where other options will be looked at. eg Aultguish Highland NSALG 13-Oct-21 has been switched off for copper provision and is in the remote Highlands. ( Belsay, Bontddu, Crosthwaite are other instances in quite a long list)

Flattered you thought I knew that! I had no idea. It was 'John83' I think said it.

"Calling a provider and asking is useless. Nobody is currently selling this. "

I opened this topic to try and get as much information from the 'knowerati' as I could and it has been a great help.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

Flattered you thought I knew that! I had no idea. It was 'John83' I think said it.

"Calling a provider and asking is useless. Nobody is currently selling this. "

and you then added 'indeed' to his comment which to me implies you was already aware although as English isn't my first language I could be wrong.

In reply to a post by mikejp:

"Calling a provider and asking is useless. Nobody is currently selling this." Indeed.

Edited by deleted (Tue 15-Feb-22 14:41:35)

"Nobody is currently selling this."

Are we saying that all this is just speculation then? Best guess?

Ask the poster, not me.

broadband66

See my post above

In reply to a post by broadband66:

"Nobody is currently selling this."

Are we saying that all this is just speculation then? Best guess?

No. We know the details on how VOIP will be delivered.
The low bandwidth broadband tier (0.5/0.5Mb/s) from Openreach already exists and we know the pricing.
The telephone USO hasn't changed and AFAIK isn't changing in the immediate future.

It's just pointless calling a provider asking for details as they aren't selling the product yet.
Margaret from BT customer services isn't going to have done the reading up on the subject that many members of this forum have.

Even when a provider is selling it I doubt they would know any of the detail being asked.
I would be utterly gobsmscked if any of the BT sales staff knew the inner workings of the SOGEA product they already sell other than you plug the phone in to the router.

In reply to a post by kitcat:

OR offer a 128Kb service which is what BT will use to provide BTVoice. There will be no ability to use it as a BB connection.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

No. We know the details on how VOIP will be delivered.
The low bandwidth broadband tier (0.5/0.5Mb/s) from Openreach already exists and we know the pricing.

So which is it likely to be for SOTAP then chaps?

Openreach are delayed on getting the spec. finalised for SOTAP. Any inkling of the holdup? Seems pretty straightforward by all accounts 😀

[128Kbps is plenty for a single voice channel using a half decent codec…]

Even using G.711 you are only looking at 80kbps including the IP overheads.

I don't recall ADSL supporting limits in the same way as FTTC does, and historically the rate adaptive service performed better than the fixed rate (512k/288k, 1M/288k or 2M/288k) offerings on very long lines. The delay in releasing the SOTAP product may in some part be working out how to limit the rate adaptive service for a voice-over-IP only offering.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

I don't recall ADSL supporting limits in the same way as FTTC does

The ADSL spec doesn't need to support it.

The 0.5Mb/s service on FTTC uses the same profile 17a as all the other FTTC tiers. The way product limits are done on FTTC (40/55/80Mb) is just the DLM setting an upper limit.

IMO they will likely do the same on the ADSL version (SOTAP).
The modem would be free to choose the tones it wants like the rate adaptive ADSL we currently have but with an upper limit/cap on sync speed.

I think it's very unlikely they will do SOTAP with 20CN style fixed rate profiles.
The lowest fixed rate was 0.5Mb. If a line couldn't manage that it either wouldn't sync or would drop packets when SNRM dipped.
If they use rate adaptive ADSL with a very low sync speed it should be stable on those longer lines. There's no reason an ADSL DLM couldn't be made to do that.
I think the ADSL DLM can do/does banding/capping to some extent already.

SOTAP is very much up in the air though and it's anyone's guess how they will end up implementing it.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

The ADSL spec doesn't need to support it.

I was imprecise. I wasn't thinking of the G.992.x specifications, more the Openreach and/or BT Wholesale line management implementation.

There's no reason an ADSL DLM couldn't be made to do that.
I think the ADSL DLM can do/does banding/capping to some extent already.

Indeed, it depends on what functionality exists. AFAIK ADSL and FTTC have banding to cope with bad lines, and whilst FTTC has a number of open profiles (0.128-80M/0.128-20M for the 80/20 product, 0.128-40M/0.128-10M for the 40/10 product, etc.) I am not aware of ADSL having anything similar where the CP can request an open profile with the maximum not being sync rate (minus protocol overheads, obviously).

Will Openreach actually provide any more than the copper loop for SOTAP?

This intro / briefing note implies they won’t necessarily…talks about “LLU exchange infrastructure”

Will the necessary DSLAM and CPE specification and provision for SOTAP actually be in the hands of BTW (and perhaps some CPs that will provide their own SOTAP based voice provision)?

Are BT Wholesale, rather than Openreach, then effectively driving the SOTAP bus (ADSL based in specification)? I know this may be semantics to some as it’s seen as “all BT anyway”.