Sluggish

I have no idea what is going on, but everything seems sluggish, I have done a speed test and it okish, a couple of Mb/s down on normal, ping is not great, but nothing to worry about. Streaming was ok, but it took a while start and when adverts on Freevee, it took a while for the video content to start again as if it was buffering, also done it on You Tube.

Earlier, Alexa stopped playing music as if it lost connection. Even on here things seems sluggish, been happening for a couple of days, but seems worse today.
Very strange, I have not really had this before.

Maybe plusnet is trying to get me to have FTTP and doing something with the connection.
Before anyone has a go, it was a joke.

But something is certainly not right

Before this turns into another 'and so it starts' war and peace thingy - I'll just say this....sack the lot off and order fibre. You know you want to 🙈😂






[...kidding. sort of]

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Before this turns into another 'and so it starts' war and peace thingy - I'll just say this....sack the lot off and order fibre. You know you want to 🙈😂






[...kidding. sort of]

LOL,

Even if I was going for Fibre, I would wait until my contract ended now.

Just having a peek while I drink my coffee before going to work, and it is still sluggish.

It would be good to determine whether it's a wifi problem, or a WAN problem (which in turn could be the VDSL connection to the cabinet, or something further upstream with the ISP).

Plusnet let you have a static IP address for a £5 one-time charge, or at least used to. If you do that, then you can configure the TBB BQM to monitor your line. You'll then be able to see if there are times of high packet loss which correspond to the times you're observing problems. That will help rule WAN problems in our out, and also give direct evidence that you can use when reporting the problem.

If you don't want to do that, then you'll need to hook up a wired PC and do some continuous ping testing. I'm not a Windows user so I don't know any user-friendly apps for that. In "real" networks I use a Linux-based bundle called Perfsonar. (It can be configured to test to other Perfsonar nodes, by default sending 10 packets per second in each direction and measuring the RTT and packet loss separately in each direction)

If there appears to be a WAN problem, and if your router supports it, you can look at the VDSL modem stats to see if the error counters or retrain counters are incrementing at a high rate. Other obvious checks include plugging in a phone and listening for noise (dial 17070 for a quiet line test). You can also ask Plusnet to do a remote line test.

If there's a wifi problem then there could be some local source of interference that needs tracking down. Sometimes changing the wifi channel on your router will help.

Or it could just be that your router has developed a fault. They tend to be full of electrolytic capacitors made of "finest Chinesium" as someone else put it. If the problem persists, see if you can borrow a spare to compare.

And this is why everyone should be upgrading to full fibre. If indeed your problem is related to your sync rate dropping, because of some line fault - you wouldn't have this problem

Edited by gorebrush (Fri 27-Jan-23 08:31:11)

So what line stats do you see from your kit ?

You have been posting here long enough to know the basics of such self help

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Before this turns into another 'and so it starts' war and peace thingy - I'll just say this....sack the lot off and order fibre. You know you want to 🙈😂

Morning Squire 😎

Your problem has the hallmarks of packet loss - what are your router stats showing?

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Before this turns into another 'and so it starts' war and peace thingy - I'll just say this....sack the lot off and order fibre. You know you want to 🙈😂


[...kidding. sort of]

Watching that thread from afar was semi funny until it turned into abuse aimed at Adrian. I do agree with you Pheasant, and Adrian should look at a 80/20 fttp connection. He will always get 80/20* and a faster ping and all the other nice bits of fttp.

* we all know about contention and the bursty nature of ip transmissions

In reply to a post by candlerb:

It would be good to determine whether it's a wifi problem, or a WAN problem (which in turn could be the VDSL connection to the cabinet, or something further upstream with the ISP).

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Plusnet let you have a static IP address for a £5 one-time charge, or at least used to. If you do that, then you can configure the TBB BQM to monitor your line. You'll then be able to see if there are times of high packet loss which correspond to the times you're observing problems. That will help rule WAN problems in our out, and also give direct evidence that you can use when reporting the problem.

pn normally (when i was a customer) at least, they didn't ip change customer's ip often (more often or not it was a router reset that caused the ip change)but then i was also on a static ip.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

If you don't want to do that, then you'll need to hook up a wired PC and do some continuous ping testing. I'm not a Windows user so I don't know any user-friendly apps for that. In "real" networks I use a Linux-based bundle called Perfsonar. (It can be configured to test to other Perfsonar nodes, by default sending 10 packets per second in each direction and measuring the RTT and packet loss separately in each direction)

there's quite a few windows programs (no names to hand) that can continous lan pings, or adrian can use a virtual machine to do that (but i think adrian uses linux anyway)
p.s is a windows network not a real network (or do you networks in a data centre )

In reply to a post by candlerb:

If there appears to be a WAN problem, and if your router supports it, you can look at the VDSL modem stats to see if the error counters or retrain counters are incrementing at a high rate. Other obvious checks include plugging in a phone and listening for noise (dial 17070 for a quiet line test). You can also ask Plusnet to do a remote line test.

Probably worth doing the above first to rule out external factors.

If there's a wifi problem then there could be some local source of interference that needs tracking down. Sometimes changing the wifi channel on your router will help.

Or it could just be that your router has developed a fault. They tend to be full of electrolytic capacitors made of "finest Chinesium" as someone else put it. If the problem persists, see if you can borrow a spare to compare.

Luckily i've not had a router failure, but i did see an old tp archer fail when you had a wee too many wireless connections and wifi calling (took a while to figure out what was going on)

Edited by Taras (Fri 27-Jan-23 11:52:18)

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Before this turns into another 'and so it starts' war and peace thingy - I'll just say this....sack the lot off and order fibre. You know you want to 🙈😂

Morning Squire 😎

Top of the Morning to you Sir 😀

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

So what line stats do you see from your kit ?

You have been posting here long enough to know the basics of such self help

Hush man. We’re on about getting Adrian to turn. He’s nearly there…🤩🤣

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

So what line stats do you see from your kit ?

You have been posting here long enough to know the basics of such self help

Hush man. We’re on about getting Adrian to turn. He’s nearly there…🤩🤣

just keep on saying 80/20 fttp and i think it will work 😂😁 I'm sure Adrian is Bendable

In reply to a post by Taras:

p.s is a windows network not a real network (or do you networks in a data centre )

Both.

https://dilbert.com/strip/1995-06-24

Hush man.

sorry

😂. I know Adrian enjoys the banter.

It’s the new 80/20 rule. 👍😎

My computer is on Ethernet, so is my TV, even my printer is , the only stuff that is not on Ethernet is my phone, some smart home stuff and the Echo units.

But if there was a problem, why do speed tests seem ok.,

In reply to a post by gorebrush:

And this is why everyone should be upgrading to full fibre. If indeed your problem is related to your sync rate dropping, because of some line fault - you wouldn't have this problem

The sync rate is not dropping, that is why it is confusing,

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

So what line stats do you see from your kit ?

You have been posting here long enough to know the basics of such self help

This is what I get .

=================================================================================
VDSL Training Status: Showtime
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL Profile: Profile 17a
G.Vector: Disable
Traffic Type: PTM Mode
Link Uptime: 23 days: 4 hours: 40 minutes
====================================================================================
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Line Rate: 10.031 Mbps 39.999 Mbps
Actual Net Data Rate: 9.997 Mbps 40.000 Mbps
Trellis Coding: ON ON
SNR Margin: 7.7 dB 9.4 dB
Actual Delay: 0 ms 0 ms
Transmit Power: 7.6 dBm 13.5 dBm
Receive Power: -5.6 dBm -8.8 dBm
Actual INP: 0.0 symbols 45.0 symbols
Total Attenuation: 0.0 dB 20.5 dB
Attainable Net Data Rate: 13.458 Mbps 50.311 Mbps

there is something called VDSL counters and that is confusing me as it says something like Since Link time = 40 min 25 sec
And then

FEC: 860468 31
CRC: 4 7
ES: 3 7
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0

The big number is downstream, i know these are error, but then further down it says

Total time = 1 days 7 hours 57 min 6 sec
FEC: 912086 31
CRC: 936 7
ES: 19 7
SES: 16 0
UAS: 140 124
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 12 0
LOM: 13 0

Very confusing,

But it seems better this evening so far,, i have had a look at some sites while having a coffee and they seem to be moving along nicely now, so maybe it was something that was a problem for a couple of days
i will see what it is like when I watch something later

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Hush man. We’re on about getting Adrian to turn. He’s nearly there…🤩🤣

Nah I am not, got another letter from Zzoomm today, offering me six months free, very strange since last week they said on their face book page that it was the last week to get six months free.
I noticed today while on the way back from work that Zzoomm have been digging around their large cabinet, which is pretty close to the exchange. I doubt they would be digging to put more fibre in, so very strange.

As i have said before I am not going to do anything until after March, as that is when the prices increase and then I will look at my options.

Anyway, things seems fine again this evening, I will check to see if streaming is ok later after I had some food. Chatting to someone at work who live not that far away from me, and they have had the same problem, but they are with Sky, so it is very strange

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

As i have said before I am not going to do anything until after March, as that is when the prices increase and then I will look at my options.

Yeah that makes sense as you avoid the 10% hike in prices. Hopefully things settle this year

There is an article on ISPr about Openreach limiting FTTC speeds to 2mb/s in trial areas and blocking outgoing calls to get people to switch. I think it's outrageous but you may be next Adrian. Linky

That is not a fair summary of what the trial is proposing

In reply to a post by Taras:

Yeah that makes sense as you avoid the 10% hike in prices. Hopefully things settle this year

My contact is up in June, so only a couple of months at paying any extra costs if I have to and then decide if I am going to stay with Plusnet as I am or go elsewhere if someone gives me a better offer. Now broadband seems to be a good price at the moment, but that could change in the next few months.

Zzoomm must be getting desperate, looking at the letter they sent me, they are now saying that my house may increase in value if I connect to their network. Makes no odds to me if it does as i rent it
5x more reliable than my existing connection, they can't even say that as they have no idea how reliable my connection is and until this slowdown over the last few days it has been reliable. Also, looking at the Zzoomm Facebook page, it doesn't seem that reliable to me.
38 times faster than the UK average, that could be true
Excellent customer service, again looking at their facebook page, I beg to differ. I realise that people will use media like Facebook to complain that people will say they are getting a good service, but there are a lot of complaints

I can't see myself going to FTTP to be honest, I really have no need to.

In reply to a post by jpm:

That is not a fair summary of what the trial is proposing

The Article or my summary just to be clear?

In reply to a post by Banger:

There is an article on ISPr about Openreach limiting FTTC speeds to 2mb/s in trial areas and blocking outgoing calls to get people to switch. I think it's outrageous but you may be next Adrian. Linky

Yes I have seen it and I think it is disgraceful and does prove the point that Openreach have more control over the network than we are led to believe and also proves that this one person I know who was saying that his FTTC connection seems to have slowed down since they had FTTP laid in the street may be correct.

I am not in a stop sell area and from what I have heard and read, they are not touching people with a 40/10 FTTc for some reason. As for digital voice, They can do what they want with my voice service, I don't use it anyway, until today there have not been a phone plugged in it for over a year. I only plugged a phone in today on advice on here to check the phone line noise. There is a strange buzzing sound, i thought maybe that was the phone, but it is just a handset, nothing special.

In reply to a post by jpm:

That is not a fair summary of what the trial is proposing

Really? so pushing people's broadband speed to 2Mb./s is good is it? People still pay for that service, and they should expect the service they pay for, if Openreach want people to change to FTTP, then they need to get providers to get rid of the 24 months contract for a start and not to put the prices up for doing so.

Your summary. Firstly it's a trial so if the feedback is poor then it won't go any further, but also it's going to be a last resort action before a customer loses their connection.

The alternative would be for people's service to disappear one day and they have to join a (probably fairly long due to lots of people being in the same boat) queue to get a new service provisioned.

If someone's ISP hasn't done anything proactive to migrate customers away from services that are being removed, and there's three months until the deadline, what alternative do you propose?

If someone is just browsing the internet and not doing speedtests will they even notice the speed reduction. Blocking outgoing calls is a bit OTT.

The intention is to get someone's attention in a way that all previous efforts from their CP (letters, phone calls, emails) haven't. That's the only reason such a heavy handed approach would be deployed. The alternative is for someone's phone to work perfectly until the exchange is switched off and they lose service.

You hit the nail on the head. "Heavy handed". We'll agree to disagree.

My point is that it's less heavy handed than someone losing their phone service completely. When PSTN is withdrawn the line goes dead, there won't be some special part left running in case someone needs to call 999 or presses the emergency button on their care pendant.

We've got two years before the TV and newspaper advertising campaign needs to start, and I expect Ofcom to make noises about holding CPs liable if they fail to show that they have tried to contact their customers to get them to make the switch.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Your summary. Firstly it's a trial so if the feedback is poor then it won't go any further, but also it's going to be a last resort action before a customer loses their connection.

The alternative would be for people's service to disappear one day and they have to join a (probably fairly long due to lots of people being in the same boat) queue to get a new service provisioned.

If someone's ISP hasn't done anything proactive to migrate customers away from services that are being removed, and there's three months until the deadline, what alternative do you propose?

Maybe getting rid of the long 24 month contracts may help and not do stupid prices for doing so.
this is one of the things that pout me off going to FTTP.
If they want people to go onto FTTP then they have to make it worthwhile, no good saying faster speed, because a lot of people are not interested in faster speed.
What I don't understand is this article is about Digital voice, well surly all they have to do is get people to pop their phone into the back of the router when it is time.

In reply to a post by Banger:

You hit the nail on the head. "Heavy handed".

If only we could leave the migration open ended

We all know even from the comments on this board (by some) what would happen so there has to be an end to all migrations and the possible outcome of this trial is a good option and yes "heavy handed" but it has to be done.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

If they want people to go onto FTTP then they have to make it worthwhile, no good saying faster speed, because a lot of people are not interested in faster speed.

Correct. But in those two cities, the copper is about to be switched off, so its a case of change, or have nothing except mobile phone. OR aren't pushing FTTP as purely about speed, its just replacing/upgrading the network. OR sell the same speeds on FTTC & FTTP. The ISP/CP is the one limiting these options.

What I don't understand is this article is about Digital voice, well surly all they have to do is get people to pop their phone into the back of the router when it is time.

The concern here is about battery backup and elderly, not about the technology. (The loss of the 50v from the exchange batteries in power cuts). Many younger customers already don't have landline phones, (especially those of us with Virmin Media) so won't be planning for a phone to work in a power cut when we are in our 90s.

But as with analogue TV switch off, change is much harder as you get older.

Edited by jchamier (Fri 27-Jan-23 22:49:32)

Contract duration is a retail decision, Openreach sell FTTP on one-month contracts. Take it up with Ofcom.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Many younger customers already don't have landline phones, (especially those of us with Virmin Media) so won't be planning for a phone to work in a power cut when we are in our 90s.

I'm not fully convinced that people understand at the moment that if they use cordless phones they will stop working when the base station loses power, despite most of them having stickers on the bases explaining this.

In reply to a post by Banger:

There is an article on ISPr about Openreach limiting FTTC speeds to 2mb/s in trial areas and blocking outgoing calls to get people to switch. I think it's outrageous but you may be next Adrian. Linky

Not allow to do this. You pay for the service FTTC 40/10, 80/20, G.fast via FTTC Pod 160/30 or 330/50.

Openreach - YOU ARE DISGRACEFUL. I BE READY TO SUED YOU IN COURT if you do limit my speed at 2Mbps!

hehe, what happens when they do this in areas with no FTTP available?

In reply to a post by jpm:

I'm not fully convinced that people understand at the moment that if they use cordless phones they will stop working when the base station loses power, despite most of them having stickers on the bases explaining this.

and most of the cell sites have no battery backup. Its a change for society to get its head around.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

Maybe getting rid of the long 24 month contracts may help and not do stupid prices for doing so.
this is one of the things that pout me off going to FTTP.
If they want people to go onto FTTP then they have to make it worthwhile, no good saying faster speed, because a lot of people are not interested in faster speed.

The 24 month contracts are too long, same for mobiles. I mostly think you are put off from fttp, because of higher prices. I looked at zzoom's pricing and incorrectly thought you were on 80/20 but you are on a 40/10 product so I can see your price argument quite well. I don't know if you have OR FTTP yet, that way you can get 40/10 fttp, I'm on a 40/10 product and due to line conditions, extra ports and changing supplier i've gone down from 19/1.3 to 13/1.2. I now struggle with larger downloads, i'm now standing outside or a 5 minute walk for lte-a speeds for downloading larger files.

If i could choose between 40/10 fttp and what i have got, i'd go with the former. I also think though, you may think its extra flaff for no real gain.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

In reply to a post by Banger:

There is an article on ISPr about Openreach limiting FTTC speeds to 2mb/s in trial areas and blocking outgoing calls to get people to switch. I think it's outrageous but you may be next Adrian. Linky

Not allow to do this. You pay for the service FTTC 40/10, 80/20, G.fast via FTTC Pod 160/30 or 330/50.

Openreach - YOU ARE DISGRACEFUL. I BE READY TO SUED YOU IN COURT if you do limit my speed at 2Mbps!

I do think whilst a court case could cause OR to loose, OR really should look at offering free migrations over to fttp for any openreach isp customers (i'm sure somebody will say they already do) rather than limiting voice.and dsl speeds.

It makes sense for sailsbury to rip its dsl and copper network out

In reply to a post by Taras:

I do think whilst a court case could cause OR to loose

I personally don't believe Openreach would consider trialling it before they had their big money lawyers check the legality of it out first. Hopefully the limiting of the service would follow many other attempts to migrate the end User before this option was activated.

In reply to a post by adslmax:

I BE READY TO SUED YOU IN COURT

Lets hope those on benefits don't expect tax payers to cough up their legal costs.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Taras:

I do think whilst a court case could cause OR to loose

I personally don't believe Openreach would consider trialling it before they had their big money lawyers check the legality of it out first.

History has shown otherwise (companies in general - look at ford - yes i know its 'merica but the point stands!)....

In reply to a post by dect:

Hopefully the limiting of the service would follow many other attempts to migrate the end User before this option was activated.

Standard migration should be done. A full fibre network is cheaper to run, especially with pon.

In reply to a post by Taras:

Standard migration should be done. A full fibre network is cheaper to run, especially with pon.

Migration isn't the issue its those stone age customers out there (we have a few on here) who would moan and be obstructive (throwing their toys out of the pram) if their ISP/Openreach tried to migrate them to FTTP.

I personally believe if ISP's are passing on costs to their customers for a FTTP migration (separately itemised) then the customer is better off moving to another provider that doesn't.

In reply to a post by dect:

Migration isn't the issue its those stone age customers out there (we have a few on here) who would moan and be obstructive (throwing their toys out of the pram) if their ISP/Openreach tried to migrate them to FTTP.

Most naysayers are in the camp of extra work, another box, extra cost, no phone line etc.

In reply to a post by dect:

I personally believe if ISP's are passing on costs to their customers for a FTTP migration (separately itemised) then the customer is better off moving to another provider that doesn't.

Completely agree with that.

In reply to a post by jpm:

I'm not fully convinced that people understand at the moment that if they use cordless phones they will stop working when the base station loses power, despite most of them having stickers on the bases explaining this.

You really think people are that thick? Maybe some are and maybe some just don't think about it, but a lot of people also have a phone connected that is not cordless. I used to have a normal phone connected to my phone as well as my cordless phones. I don't have any phones connected to the main landline these days as I use VoIP

In reply to a post by Taras:

The 24 month contracts are too long, same for mobiles. I mostly think you are put off from fttp, because of higher prices. I looked at zzoom's pricing and incorrectly thought you were on 80/20 but you are on a 40/10 product so I can see your price argument quite well. I don't know if you have OR FTTP yet, that way you can get 40/10 fttp, I'm on a 40/10 product and due to line conditions, extra ports and changing supplier i've gone down from 19/1.3 to 13/1.2. I now struggle with larger downloads, i'm now standing outside or a 5 minute walk for lte-a speeds for downloading larger files.

If i could choose between 40/10 fttp and what i have got, i'd go with the former. I also think though, you may think its extra flaff for no real gain.

The 24 months contracts are certainly too long, been there, done that with a local wireless network that worked fantastic for around 12 months, and then it suffered with having too many people on their network, and they could not cope and the speed I was getting was worse than what I had with ADSL. So I was stuck in a contract for another 12 months. By the time the contract ended, FTTC was available here.

The higher prices are not the main problem, I can afford the higher prices, to a certain extent, I could afford Zzoomm 900Mb./s at £66 a month, could go for their 2Gb conection at £99 a month, it would mean putting less in my savings each payday, but I could do it, I would not, but I could. Openreach FTTP is available here, they have been following Zzoomm, scared that they are going to miss out on something, not interested before zzoom started, now Openreach is interested.
I have no problem with people wanting the faster speed if they need it or feel they need it, some people just think they do.
I know a few people who love to boast about that they have, faster phones, internet and computers and when asked what they do with it, I find they do less than me, it is just this, look at what I got thing, better than the Jones's next door. I buy things that I need, and do what I want, that is why I have a cheap Oppo phone, because I don't need to spend a stupid amount on a new phone just because it may download a web page a .0005 of a second faster.
This is the same with the internet, I went to a wireless broadband provider to get something a bit better than the 3Mb/s I was getting with ADSL and I did for a while, I got 10Mb/s, until it went belly up, and it's did what I wanted, then I went to FTTP, not so much because I could get 36Mb/s, but because the service I was on was going downhill. Now things are slightly different, we have 4k video, i use my internet for smart home automation and i listen to a fair bit of music using my broadband, saying that Music would work fine on 10 Mb/s and so would smart home stuff, but 4K video would struggle. Even if I could have got 80Mb/s FTTc I would not have bothered, not worth paying higher price for something I would not advantage off. This is one of my arguments for not getting FTTP, I don't need the higher speed. So get FTTP at the same speed I have now, I hear you say, but i see no point in going through all the hassle of getting it installed for no gain, ok i can save a few pence a month as 36Mb.s FTTP is slightly cheaper from Plusnet than FTTC.

It was a couple of weeks ok when I was trying to figure out why some games I have were not working correctly, and I decided to reformat the drive they were stored on and reinstalled them that I thought it would have been nice to have faster broadband as they are from steam, but then I got over it and thought they can download while i am sleeping.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

You really think people are that thick?

If you spent just a few microseconds outside Universe Adrian you would realise that you have once again fallen foul of the advice given by H L Mencken in 1926, "No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have researched the records for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people".

Have you actually got any facts to back up your statement rather than the anecdotal "a lot of people I know" or is it just another "Adrian fact".

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

You really think people are that thick?

If you spent just a few microseconds outside Universe Adrian you would realise that you have once again fallen foul of the advice given by H L Mencken in 1926, "No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have researched the records for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people".

Have you actually got any facts to back up your statement rather than the anecdotal "a lot of people I know" or is it just another "Adrian fact".

Maybe the people you know are a bit thick then, maybe you are a bit thick. Even my next door neighbour who knows nothing about tech realises that if she loses power, then he cordless phones will not work, not that it makes any difference now as they are connected to her Sky router.

The discussion seems to have wandered a bit, but I wonder quite what you mean by sluggish.

Sometimes a fast connection can seem sluggish because the DNS is slow.

What DNS settings are you using? It might be worth trying different ones.

In reply to a post by hoopla:

The discussion seems to have wandered a bit, but I wonder quite what you mean by sluggish.

Sometimes a fast connection can seem sluggish because the DNS is slow.

What DNS settings are you using? It might be worth trying different ones.

I never thought of that, I used to use open DNS years ago, but now just use the normal ones that plusnet uses.
I thought it was my VPN at first, then realised it is only my phone and computer that goes through the VPN

But as I said it seemed to behave correctly again.