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According to an email notification that I received today from my ISP (Aquiss) it looks like any user who wishes to migrate their non-LLU(?) xDSL and bundled PSTN account from any provider to another provider will find it impossible to place such an order from the beginning of September. Hence if folks wish to retain their PSTN voice service they will be stuck with their current ISP for xDSL and PSTN voice up to 2025, at the latest, when the PSTN switch off will occur. Moving only the PSTN voice service prior to September could cause the xDSL service to be ceased with the current provider and that may not be an option.
I guess a bundled xDSL broadband and "landline" voice service could be migrated to another provider if the user agreed to having VoIP with them? Presumably any gaining provider would have to provide the necessary hardware (or suggest suitable hardware) for a "landline" voice service to continue.
I wonder if this situation is widely known by users who currently rely on a copper connection for both broadband and voice and might consider ordering a migration to another provider from September? It's probably not an issue for a migration to e.g. BT retail's broadband + "digital voice" where a router is provided that allows certain existing analogue devices to be used together with the existing phone number, but that may not be the common practice.
From the email:
"After 31st August 2023, ADSL or FTTC circuits... will not be able to migrate, transfer, regrade, bandwidth modify, request a working line takeover or add any extra services to a phone line, in line with Openreach changes, without the agreement of you losing your historic analogue phone line service going forward".
Edited by 4M2 (Mon 07-Aug-23 20:33:05)
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Are you saying that the stop sell breaks AAISP's "Renumber and export" service which specifically allows you to port your number to VOIP without a break in the xDSL service?
Of course that only works if your broadband and voice is currently provided by AAISP and you won't be able to move to them after September so I suppose it does for many people.
Edited by Dassa (Wed 09-Aug-23 14:47:46)
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I guess a bundled xDSL broadband and "landline" voice service could be migrated to another provider if the user agreed to having VoIP with them? Presumably any gaining provider would have to provide the necessary hardware (or suggest suitable hardware) for a "landline" voice service to continue.
The stop/sell starts on 5th September, but simply after this date, anyone on a copper (FTTC/Gfast) service and wanting to change provider of which there are only copper services available (i.e no FTTP), have to move to SoTAP/SoGEA/SoGFast, either keeping the voice via VoIP or ditching that entirely.
This does not apply to MPF lines however such as Talk Talk or Sky's which currently have no stop date.
Matt
Edited by uno (Wed 09-Aug-23 15:28:35)
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The above post has been made by an ISP REPRESENTATIVE (although not necessarily the ISP being discussed in the post).
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Please see Matt's post above.
Edited by 4M2 (Wed 09-Aug-23 16:44:50)
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The stop/sell starts on 5th September, but simply after this date, anyone on a copper (FTTC/Gfast) service and wanting to change provider of which there are only copper services available (i.e no FTTP), have to move to SoTAP/SoGEA/SoGFast, either keeping the voice via VoIP or ditching that entirely.
This does not apply to MPF lines however such as Talk Talk or Sky's which currently have no stop date.
Matt
Thanks for the clarification. Firstly: it seems that Aquiss are using the 1st of September as a cut-off date for their own particular reasons. Secondly: after stop/sell I assume that with a migration xDSL broadband would only be available and, if required, voice would be VoIP. The VoIP service would have to be with the same provider if the phone number wished to be retained, otherwise if the number was ported to another provider the xDSL would be ceased on that line? Thirdly: as I expected, it does not apply to full LLU MPF lines.
Edited by 4M2 (Wed 09-Aug-23 16:46:51)
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Secondly: after stop/sell I assume that with a migration xDSL broadband would only be available and, if required, voice would be VoIP. The VoIP service would have to be with the same provider if the phone number wished to be retained, otherwise if the number was ported to another provider the xDSL would be ceased on that line?
Yes. There is an Openreach order type for working line take over also converting FTTC to SOGEA and porting the PSTN number out as part of the process. Zen use this - you could have FTTC and PSTN from two different providers and migrate to Zen SOGEA + DV in one go.
Alternatively you could migrate to SOGEA only, which will cease the PSTN service, then start the number port the day before the migration or during the 30 days grace period which is now mandated by Ofcom. You would be without the PSTN service for a few days.
Are you saying that the stop sell breaks AAISP's "Renumber and export" service which specifically allows you to port your number to VOIP without a break in the xDSL service?
They will likely have to handle the process differently. If currently they do a FTTC+PSTN WLTO from another provider, followed by a PSTN renumber and export this will not work as that type of WLTO wil no longer be permitted.
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Can SoTAP and SoGFast be ordered yet?
Wherever I look I keep being told it is not available.
Thanks
Dan
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All quite irrelevant to areas such as mine that no longer offer copper anyway. 
I know it's advancement but there must be a lot of folk, like me, that were happy with what ADSL offered?
It just seems like a way of doubling the cost for half the service.
Keef- Sheerness Kent UK - Vodafone FTTP via THG3000 &
Three via ZTE MF286D
Previously - NowTV, John Lewis, Shell Energy, Plusnet, Sky, EE, New Call Telecom/Fuelbroadband, Virgin/NTL/Bell Cable, Crosswinds, IC24, FreeOnlineNet, X-Stream, Totalise, Freeserve, Force9, TescoNet, AOL, Freenetname, Pipex, E7
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So your exchange is/was a FTTP Priority Exchange where all Openreach copper-based services are put into Stop Sell?
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Looks that way. 
Keef- Sheerness Kent UK - Vodafone FTTP via THG3000 &
Three via ZTE MF286D
Previously - NowTV, John Lewis, Shell Energy, Plusnet, Sky, EE, New Call Telecom/Fuelbroadband, Virgin/NTL/Bell Cable, Crosswinds, IC24, FreeOnlineNet, X-Stream, Totalise, Freeserve, Force9, TescoNet, AOL, Freenetname, Pipex, E7
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Edited by hk11 (Thu 10-Aug-23 01:51:18)
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All quite irrelevant to areas such as mine that no longer offer copper anyway.
I know it's advancement but there must be a lot of folk, like me, that were happy with what ADSL offered?
It just seems like a way of doubling the cost for half the service.
I agree, while ADSL here would be useless for what I want, as I can only get 3Mb/s I expect there are some people who are happy with that, and some that are closer to the exchange will get better speed. I know someone who still use dial up, but I think I have persuaded them to use a mobile network, they use something called Nippy or something like that.
I had to find one of my old modems a few weeks ago as the one they had decided to give up.
I realise we have to advance and I realise that technology changes, and old technology is not produced and it costs more to keep things going, but when things are done , certainly in this country it is not done correctly, you only have to look at our digital TV change over to see what a mess was made of that. Likewise, I know this change over have been on the cards for a long time, but I bet if you ask a thousand people on the street, you may get one or two that have heard about this.
I don't mean in places like yours, I mean like where I live, where copper is still available and used.
I have a few niggles about this pushing people onto fibre thing and yes I know this thread is mainly about the phone change not broadband as such, but it is all linked.,
Anyway, the niggles,
No battery back up for phone, for those that reply on it. I know a lot of people use mobiles, but some don't
Another device in the house that some people may get confused about and turn off.
Incompatible equipment, while we are told that vulnerable people will be helped. Yeah, ok pigs will fly.
Upselling will be a problem, I never had it really with FTTC as I could only get the lower speed, Plusnet did offer their TV package, and their phone service which is a sort of upselling. I did go with their mobile phone service, I went with that before they sent me the first info about it. Anyway, we get upselling with mobile phones, well some do, I do get the odd email from smarty trying to get me to change to a higher package, the last time I change it was for my benefit, cheaper and with more data and i can tell them not to contact me.
With Fibre this upselling can be huge with people getting bombed with emails and text and other ways to get people to go from a slower speed to a faster one, certainly ones that choose speeds blow 100Mb/s. It is happening already, I know of someone who is with Vodafone fibre, at their lowest speed of 75Mb/s, but they keep getting emails and even a phone call once about going to 100Mb/s for a quid extra per month and then once that is done they will nagg them to go higher. They change the contract preferences, but still get the emails.
A lot of people just have the internet because in this day and age it is required for life, but they don't require super-duper speeds and yet are going to be pushed into packages that cost more than what they are paying now, but saying that a lot of providers are now increasing the prices of ADSL and FTTC to match FTTP.
Like certain shops who have a brand name on offer or with their loyalty prices and take their own product off sale for a while to get people to buy the still more expensive branded product.
Now broadband ADSL is £20, their FTTC package is a pound more and I have seen providers doing that with FTTP. Plusnet tried it with me, offer me FTTP for less than what they offered FTTC. My other problem with all of this is the way we are now going back to 24 month contracts, I hate long contracts, certainly when prices increase part way though and with 24 months, twice and nothing can be done about it.
i am lucky that Zzoomm is here and they offerer a 12 month contract at a decent price, not that I was interested in going to FTTP and still not bothered about the extra speed, most of the time I don't even notice the difference, but the price is good.
Sorry for long post,
Adrian
Desktop machines Mac mini pro with macOS Ventura, also pc Ryzen powered with windows something or other.
Zooming with Zzoomm FTTP,
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I get the argument about power outages, but its rare for them to last any length of time. Maybe where i live im lucky, but not had one for years that lasted more than a few mins.
You can also get a cheap PAYG phone for like a tenner these days, in the event you need a back up. Again not ideal but its a perfectly workable solution
But yes i agree more information needs to be out there about the switch. Im tech savvy, check news articles etc and i only recently found out about the 5th September stop sell on new phone lines
Edit: Most people have DECT phones these days too that rely on a power supply so its not a new issue
Edited by bobble_bob (Thu 10-Aug-23 11:12:33)
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Can SoTAP and SoGFast be ordered yet?
Wherever I look I keep being told it is not available.
Thanks
Dan
Openreach selling it but sadly many ISPs not bothered to use it. Lazy sod
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Openreach have never sold ADSL. They merely provide copper circuits between customer premises and frames in the exchange with their SMPF or MPF products. The broadband equipment and service is supplied by BT Wholesale or LLU providers such as Sky and Talk Talk.
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I get the argument about power outages, but its rare for them to last any length of time. Maybe where i live im lucky, but not had one for years that lasted more than a few mins.
You can also get a cheap PAYG phone for like a tenner these days, in the event you need a back up. Again not ideal but its a perfectly workable solution
But yes i agree more information needs to be out there about the switch. Im tech savvy, check news articles etc and i only recently found out about the 5th September stop sell on new phone lines
Edit: Most people have DECT phones these days too that rely on a power supply so its not a new issue
I have not had a power outage for a long time, I think there have been a few flickers over the last few months, but that is about it.
PAYG phones are not really cheap, the phone may be but normally if you don't use it then you lose the money on it, it used to be you need to use it once in 30 days, i presume that have not changed., also what about if you have naff mobile signal? Even in this city there are places where mobile phone use is almost impossible.
i knew about the stop sell a while ago, not a problem for me as i already have VoIP, but some people are getting confused about it. As i said it has not been communicated correctly and is confusing people, even some younger ones.
i know what you are saying about Dect phones, but some people also have a normal phone for emergencies
Adrian
Desktop machines Mac mini pro with macOS Ventura, also pc Ryzen powered with windows something or other.
Zooming with Zzoomm FTTP,
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Can SoTAP and SoGFast be ordered yet?
Wherever I look I keep being told it is not available.
Thanks
Dan
Openreach selling it but sadly many ISPs not bothered to use it. Lazy sod
As tdw42 posted, out of reach is only the network and infrastructure provider, and we are supposed to believe that they are separate from BT. Yeah, sure they are.
Adrian
Desktop machines Mac mini pro with macOS Ventura, also pc Ryzen powered with windows something or other.
Zooming with Zzoomm FTTP,
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As tdw42 posted, out of reach is only the network and infrastructure provider, and we are supposed to believe that they are separate from BT. Yeah, sure they are.
The point here is the ADSL was never supplied by Openreach as the wires went from your home to the exchange and at the exchange you had a choice of providers. Sky, TalkTalk and BTwholesale ran ADSL hardware and your ISP could choose.
With VDSL/FTTC the equipment moved to the street, so there was no way an operator like Sky or TalkTalk could compete, so the regulated Openreach provided wholesale services to all the providers at the exchange, again TalkTalk, Sky, and BTwholesale.
So they have a legal separate operation agreement, and Ofcom would like to know if you have any evidence. In the long run (25/30 years time) we may no longer care when the likes of CityFibre of nexFibre have created alternative networks.
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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I get the argument about power outages, but its rare for them to last any length of time.
Depends where you live. In a metropolitan environment there is usually some sort of redundancy in the network so the grid operator can work round the problem in a comparatively short space of time. That covers the majority of the population. However, in the rural parts of the community most outages are caused by something breaking in the single link from the grid to the community. There is no redundancy and a single mission-critical link. When this link breaks (typically something like a tree falling and bringing down the line or a pole falling over) the experience from our connection is that the outage will last 12 hours give or take. That is 40 miles from a major urban community so not way out in the wilds. People in more rural areas will quite possibly see longer outages as repair teams are mobilised, get to the problem site, identify the problem, bring in the kit required to fix the issue then make good.
A minority of the population but one-size-fits-all will always pose risk for those outside the metropolitan elites.
Also please remember that ADSL/VDSL cabinets and mobile phone masts are normally built with very limited power back up. We have no mobile signal (although there is a planning application in for a mast) and the AIO VDSL cabinet went down 4 hours into our last 12 hour outage so the community (even those with their own power back-up) was without any internet access until the power was restored.
Edited by GonePostal (Fri 11-Aug-23 00:36:43)
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There are PAYG sim providers who don't have minimum use policies and only require you to maintain a positive balance. My wife uses an old unlocked mobile and has never had more than £3 balance over past couple of years. She only has to make one call or send one text in a 12 month period.
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The point here is the ADSL was never supplied by Openreach as the wires went from your home to the exchange and at the exchange you had a choice of providers. Sky, TalkTalk and BTwholesale ran ADSL hardware and your ISP could choose.
With VDSL/FTTC the equipment moved to the street, so there was no way an operator like Sky or TalkTalk could compete, so the regulated Openreach provided wholesale services to all the providers at the exchange, again TalkTalk, Sky, and BTwholesale.
So they have a legal separate operation agreement, and Ofcom would like to know if you have any evidence. In the long run (25/30 years time) we may no longer care when the likes of CityFibre of nexFibre have created alternative networks.
I know how it works.
As for being separate, you must be a fool if you think Openreach is separate from BT, BT still owns it and still pulls the ropes. Openreach should be separated from BT. Taking BT off their vans don;'t change anything.
Adrian
Desktop machines Mac mini pro with macOS Ventura, also pc Ryzen powered with windows something or other.
Zooming with Zzoomm FTTP,
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There are PAYG sim providers who don't have minimum use policies and only require you to maintain a positive balance. My wife uses an old unlocked mobile and has never had more than £3 balance over past couple of years. She only has to make one call or send one text in a 12 month period.
But do these PAYG providers just have a voice part? I must admit i have not looked around for a while as have had no need to, but the last time I looked, they all had a data and I could not see any that did not have the 30 day thing. If there is they make it flipping hard to find.
The problem with mobile phone networks is they think we all need ton of data and super duper speed.
Adrian
Desktop machines Mac mini pro with macOS Ventura, also pc Ryzen powered with windows something or other.
Zooming with Zzoomm FTTP,
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As for being separate, you must be a fool if you think Openreach is separate from BT, BT still owns it and still pulls the ropes. Openreach should be separated from BT. Taking BT off their vans don;'t change anything. We can disagree there, but unlike the 100 years of copper wire, Openreach now has full competition with the likes of CityFibre, Virgin Media, nexFibre, and the alternate networks (your local Zzoomm, my local Toob, and others).
The "monopoly" position will disappear. I suspect by 2060 things will be quite different.
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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The problem with mobile phone networks is they think we all need ton of data and super duper speed. How else do they compete? PAYG as we knew it ended as a LOT of PAYG usage is under 18s whom can't get credit and these days all want/need smartphones.
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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...do these PAYG providers just have a voice part? I must admit i have not looked around for a while as have had no need to, but the last time I looked, they all had a data and I could not see any that did not have the 30 day thing. If there is they make it flipping hard to find.
The problem with mobile phone networks is they think we all need ton of data and super duper speed.
I use Vodafone PAYG: one call, text or top-up of credit must be done within a 180 days of the last call, text or top-up. One's account credit for a call or text is reduced by £1. However only for the period of that day unlimited minutes and unlimited texts plus 50MB of data are available.
PAYG mobile is not perhaps an ideal solution after a PSTN switch off or cease but it might be relevant as a short term solution to any voice issues,
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Can SoTAP and SoGFast be ordered yet?
Wherever I look I keep being told it is not available.
Thanks
Dan
Openreach selling it but sadly many ISPs not bothered to use it. Lazy sod
As tdw42 posted, out of reach is only the network and infrastructure provider, and we are supposed to believe that they are separate from BT. Yeah, sure they are.
Yes, they are separate.
Openreach are selling SOGFast to providers and have been for some time.
BT do not offer SOGFast.
G.Fast from BT is currently only available with a PSTN line (or was last time I checked (very recently)).
Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 14-Aug-23 12:16:22)
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Can SoTAP and SoGFast be ordered yet?
Wherever I look I keep being told it is not available.
Thanks
Dan
SOGFast is definitely available. Sky for example bundle it with their VOIP.
BT sell G.Fast but not SOGFast though I expect that might change with the looming stop sell.
I'm yet to see SOTAP being sold by anyone.
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I guess a bundled xDSL broadband and "landline" voice service could be migrated to another provider if the user agreed to having VoIP with them? Presumably any gaining provider would have to provide the necessary hardware (or suggest suitable hardware) for a "landline" voice service to continue.
The stop/sell starts on 5th September, but simply after this date, anyone on a copper (FTTC/Gfast) service and wanting to change provider of which there are only copper services available (i.e no FTTP), have to move to SoTAP/SoGEA/SoGFast, either keeping the voice via VoIP or ditching that entirely.
This does not apply to MPF lines however such as Talk Talk or Sky's which currently have no stop date.
Matt
Wonder how well VOIP works when ADSL/VDSL is saturated during call?
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