Suspicious visit from EE?

I suspect it was simply a disguised sales call, but I've just had a strange visit from someone with an EE badge, claiming to be working in conjunction with MoneySavingExpert, saying they are investigating reports of internet problems in the area.

I'm NOT with EE, but he claimed other providers rent the network from them (I don't think this is true, especially in the case of Plusnet, who I'm with, whom I'm pretty sure use Openreach infrastructure).

He asked how my internet has been lately (I said "no problem") and claimed they just need to do "a quick speed test" to check if my line needs upgrading; did I have my mobile handy?

I said no, and shut the door in his face.

I'm entirely happy I did the right thing, whoever he was, but am now wondering if he was even from EE, or any ISP, or if the whole thing might have been an attempted distraction burglary - householder is distracted going to get phone...

Has anyone encountered these tactics from EE? Do you think they even were EE? Should I be having a word with the local police station?

EE are part of BT (as are PlusNet) and BT are moving more to having EE as their "retail arm". However, EE and BT Retail are not the same as OpenReach - OpenReach whilst also being owned by BT is separate from all of the retail arms. I would not expect an EE badged rep to suggest they are OpenReach as it would likely breach the BT conditions for how they have to separate OpenReach from the other businesses.

I would have not allowed them my mobile either. I don't believe EE would turn up at random doors like this and so I suspect you are right that it was some sort of scam. I would consider contacting EE and informing them, firstly to see if it is legit and secondly, assuming it wasn't, to let them know people are impersonating them which could impact their brand and image.

I just tried to message EE on Facebook, asking whether they have canvassers in the area today, but their FB Messenger is unmanned, and just responds with advice to install their app! And they don't publish any email address!

I've tried posting on the MoneySavingExpert forum, to ask if they have any kind of bona fide collaboration with EE at the moment.

X would probably be the best contact route but if you are anything like me you may not use that platform.

A bit like you, evidently.

In reply to a post by TLM:

A bit like you, evidently.

Indeed, it has its benefits but on principal I deleted my account years ago and nothing since Mr Musk took ownership makes me think I should rejoin.

In reply to a post by TLM:

Should I be having a word with the local police station?

Yes. I would be very surprised if MoneySavingExpert are endorsing a particular provider - there are plenty of scams which use Martin Lewis' name and even voice to promote bitcoin scams and the like.

"investigating reports of internet problems in the area" also sounds exceedingly suspicious.

It says it all that there's a fine line between some unscrupulous and over-zealous sales reps and actual criminals! I know some sales people desperate for commission will say pretty much anything to get your attention, including things that aren't true. The pseudo-test might just have been an excuse for him to say: "Oh dear, it's not very good, we could fix that for you!"

But equally, it could have been to make me turn my back to fetch the phone, while he or an accomplice gains entry.

Or maybe he would have snatched the phone and scarpered, if I had presented one?

Did they mean MoneySavingExpert or Money Expert?

https://ee.co.uk/help/profile/manage/ee-door-to-door

If you can be bothered I would make a complaint, they should be straight up with you about it being a sales visit and not lying about problem solving.

He (and the logo on his shirt) claimed MoneySavingExpert.

I completely agree that even if it was a bona fide EE rep, they should be honest that it's a sales visit, and not use the ruse that they're investigating some alleged fault. But it's a reality that people will be more ready to indulge them if they think it's anything but a sales pitch!

Unfortunately, I don't have a doorbell cam, and am starting to doubt what I saw, but I was pretty sure EE and MSE logos were both on his shirt. Nicely done, too - not like someone just ran it off on a printer and tacked it on.

MSE replied that they NEVER cold-call, but he never actually claimed to be from them. More like gave the impression MSE reports were what alerted them to an issue!

Thanks for the link. I might give EE a call tomorrow, if I feel up to it. If he is one of theirs, they should know he's telling porkies to try to get business. But equally, they should know if someone is impersonating them!

If it was the MSE logo then judging by the statement on their website that they do not do cold calling or employ people to do that job I'd say it's fraudulent and would report it to the police.

My guess, and it is just that, is that this is over zealous work by folk who will say anything to earn a sales bonus.

This is sharp unpleasant business.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

My guess, and it is just that, is that this is over zealous work by folk who will say anything to earn a sales bonus.

This is sharp unpleasant business.

That's why I'm going to try to get an answer from EE about whether they did have people in the area, before reporting my suspicions to the police.

It's still not OK if he was from EE, but it falls short of being a would-be burglar.

It's still not OK if he was from EE, but it falls short of being a would-be burglar.

Completely agree.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, telecoms in this country has become like the Wild West.

Morning

You did the right thing, and the mix of scammer and legit is why we need to stop all legit door to door sales, or make it extremely clear they are genuine e.g. full branded vehicle and immediate presentation of ID and paperwork.

If you don't mind can you email me andrew@thinkbroadband with the date/time and town/village name. Reason being I've fired off a press enquiry already on this, and would like to see if EE can confirm if in area or not.

The 'quick speed test' is the exact same way the phone scammers operate.

Thanks Andrew, mailed you as requested.

I really appreciate you looking into this. I'm not in great health, and didn't really need the hassle of taking it up with EE on my own.

It will have much more clout coming from you, I'm sure.

I'm watching this thread with interest, thanks for posting about it

You did absolutely the right thing. You should call Trading Standards to see if they will act. There are bound to be people who fall for the scam whatever it is and they need to be stopped.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Morning

You did the right thing, and the mix of scammer and legit is why we need to stop all legit door to door sales, or make it extremely clear they are genuine e.g. full branded vehicle and immediate presentation of ID and paperwork.

i think

In reply to a post by TLM:

claimed they just need to do "a quick speed test" to check if my line needs upgrading

comment raises some serious questions if it really is EE. If it is a scammer, than these need to be logged somewhere. Its very very easily to be fooled by this type of scam. But also i agree door to door sales by big companies need to stop.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Reason being I've fired off a press enquiry already on this, and would like to see if EE can confirm if in area or not.

The 'quick speed test' is the exact same way the phone scammers operate.

Thanks Andrew, hopefully we get some answers and a greater push to protect the public.

In reply to a post by jpm:

If it was the MSE logo then judging by the statement on their website that they do not do cold calling or employ people to do that job I'd say it's fraudulent and would report it to the police.

It could be a "MoneyExpert" logo designed to look very much like Money Saving Expert to a casual glance.

I'm pretty sure it was MoneySavingExpert with the words in full, so I don't know how I could have imagined a whole word that wasn't there.

But I was a bit disoriented by the whole thing, so I am starting to doubt myself now, and don't have photographic evidence.

MSE do utterly refute that they cold-call, either alone, or in association with anyone else, so he shouldn't have been referencing them or displaying anything suggesting he was affiliated with them.

I'm sure Mr. Saffron will get to the bottom of whether EE were in the area.

If they weren't, it's even creepier, as whoever it was was definitely up to no good, and may have been planning to burgle.

Hey, interesting article from the Express back in January - sounds suspiciously similar!

https://www.express.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/18...

The member of the public had a visitor displaying both EE and MSE logos, and claiming to be testing internet speeds

I presume you don't have a ring doorbell or similar obviously.
You asked it they went to your neighbours?

No, I don't have a video doorbell. And don't know if they also went to the neighbours - who wouldn't typically be home at that time anyway. One definitely doesn't have a video doorbell. I'm not sure about the other.

In reply to a post by TLM:

No, I don't have a video doorbell. And don't know if they also went to the neighbours - who wouldn't typically be home at that time anyway. One definitely doesn't have a video doorbell. I'm not sure about the other.

May be worth canvassing as many property as you can, fanning out from your property as they wouldn't have just visited you. May be you have a local Facebook page?

Edited by PCJM40 (Wed 17-Jul-24 10:18:14)

In reply to a post by TLM:

I'm pretty sure it was MoneySavingExpert with the words in full, so I don't know how I could have imagined a whole word that wasn't there.

It's definitely Money Expert. They work on behalf of EE.

https://ee.co.uk/help/profile/manage/ee-door-to-door

MoneySavingExpert confirmed a while ago when "Money Expert" last hit the press that they don't do anything that involves door to door sales.

Not quite "definitely" JOhn, though I agree with the bulk of your post.

Showing proof of ID is not necessarily proof of representation. Easily forged especially if only flashed for a few moments. As is the clothing.

I wouldn't trust any such person. Particularly for a speedtest at the doorstep using the resident's wifi. As you and we all know, such a speed test proves nothing.

This is a very old technique where the rep is technically not selling anything so can legally say that, but is asking for permission to make a referral. With the usual receipt of a referral fee from the principal resulting.

This is dreadful... just shows how low EE and BT are prepared to sink.
This sort of door to door "selling" really should be banned and the staff that do it can only really expect abuse... what on earth do BT and EE think they are doing? It is bound to cause scammers to try and exploit this sort of activity.

I really think complaints to Trading Standards are in order.

Andrew (aka MrSaffron) has kindly been able to clarify for me that EE were in the area, so it's likely them.

I still think the guy displayed a MoneySavingExpert badge, and NOT the similarly-named Money Expert, but I don't have video evidence to prove it.

Edited by TLM (Wed 17-Jul-24 19:09:15)

In reply to a post by TLM:

Andrew (aka MrSaffron) has kindly been able to clarify for me that EE were in the area, so it's likely them.

I still think the guy displayed a MoneySavingExpert badge, and NOT the similarly-named Money Expert, but I don't have video evidence to prove it.

You wouldn't be the 1st to confuse the 2 logos and won't be the last.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2019/07/had-a...

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/mobiles/no-more-ju...

A quote from the MSE page above

MoneySavingExpert.com will never, ever, EVER cold call you.

MoneySavers often tell us they've had cold callers on their doorstep claiming to represent MSE.

These people are NOTHING to do with us. We're a consumer help website, here to fight your corner. We don't in any way, shape or form take part in – or even endorse – the practice of cold calling.

Here's a post from just this week (though I think it might be you 😂)

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6541...

Send a message to Money Expert themselves and ask if they were in your area?

I think is is borderline despicable for EE to employ an outfit styling itself "Money Expert", given the likely false recognition as "Money Saving Expert". And it is clearly despicable for "Money Expert" to style itself so similarly to "Money Saving Expert".

But it is probably quite counterproductive for both EE and "Money Expert", because Money Saving Expert has huge brand recognition and it is well known that they don't sell at the door and that any apparent endorsements from them are a scam. So, even if genuine, what EE are doing screams scam.

I think this is worse:

I'm NOT with EE, but he claimed other providers rent the network from them

I assume Ofcom would have an issue with that statement as it is something that Ofcom have specifically stopped with the structuring of BT. Openreach != EE. Same parent but supposed to be arms length companies - EE do not rent the network out to other ISPs.

That's why I dispute that I'm "confused" about the logo. Pretty much everything he said was hogwash, so I don't see why he would draw the line about displaying a fake logo, either.

As EE do partner with (the unrelated) Money Expert, he has a ready defence to any complaints: 'The householder must have got confused!"

In general, I don't want a door cam (I prefer to just not open the door), but this is one of the few occasions when I can see the potential usefulness.

Ordinarily, I just don't answer to unexpected callers, so I don't have to have the debate on the doorstep about why I don't want whatever it is! But it just so happened I knew I had a parcel out for delivery, so I opened the door, eagerly expecting it!

I'm sure the claim that they rent the network to others was to forestall any objections about investigations by someone who's NOT my provider!

If he claims they own it anyway, it appears more reasonable they would have people checking supposed "issues".

A bit of me thinks they dream this stuff up, because all they want at the end of the day is a sale ….

A truly awful situation.

In reply to a post by Bam16:

This is dreadful... just shows how low EE and BT are prepared to sink.

Try Googling "Phorm BT" - they are lower than snakes' bellies.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=phorm+bt

It happen in my area as well. EE scammer call on my door. Been in Dawley, Madeley, Woodside, Brookside according to Telford facebook. https://i.ibb.co/sR1pNNX/Screenshot.png

Edited by adslmax (Fri 19-Jul-24 08:24:07)

In reply to a post by hunnymonster:

In reply to a post by Bam16:

This is dreadful... just shows how low EE and BT are prepared to sink.

Try Googling "Phorm BT" - they are lower than snakes' bellies.

Wow, that was disgraceful. Could you imagine BT or the old GPO interspersing dial tone or ringing tone with adverts, never mind interrupting the calls themselves, perhaps based on who the subscriber was ringing? Strowger was invented to prevent the telephone company involving itself in the subscriber's affairs.

It is surprising, given the apparent service ethos of BT, that they would be the ISP to attempt to breach their role of information carrier.

It is also 15 years old and was, I seem to remember, talked about at length on these forums.

Yes, I remember that too... "talked about" was putting it gently

Strowger has not been operational for twenty plus years.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Strowger has not been operational for twenty plus years.

You must have been waiting all those 20 years to deliver that little gem. But you missed the point. Strowger invented Strowger to prevent data carriers [OK speech] from involving themselves in the business of customers. Which is why it was an apposite mention in relation to Phorm.

In reply to a post by DFScale:

You must have been waiting all those 20 years to deliver that little gem.

"Strowger, an undertaker, was motivated to invent an automatic telephone exchange after having difficulties with his telephone service. He became convinced that the manual telephone exchange operators were deliberately interfering with his calls, leading to loss of business."

Just googled that little gem as I don't have the excellent in depth knowledge like Zarjaz.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Strowger has not been operational for twenty plus years.

But what a wonderful system it was

My (deceased) brother worked as an engineer in the GPO exchanges as his first job. One day he took me in to show me the racks of them chattering away. Utterly fascinating to me.

He happened to spot someone doing the handset rest trick to dial a number without paying. (I forget the detailed explanation). He took delight in two or three times just knocking it out on the penultimate digit. In the end the "hacker" gave up. No doubt trying again later of course.

IIRC it would have been from a public telephone box. Does that make sense?

In reply to a post by pluralist:

My (deceased) brother worked as an engineer in the GPO exchanges as his first job. One day he took me in to show me the racks of them chattering away. Utterly fascinating to me.

He happened to spot someone doing the handset rest trick to dial a number without paying. (I forget the detailed explanation). He took delight in two or three times just knocking it out on the penultimate digit. In the end the "hacker" gave up. No doubt trying again later of course.

IIRC it would have been from a public telephone box. Does that make sense?

Yes possibly from an old phone with buttons A and B.

IIRC It was the Caterham exchange which was very useful if you knew how to benefit from ringing it.

Yes, it was in the days of buttons A & B.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

He happened to spot someone doing the handset rest trick to dial a number without paying. (I forget the detailed explanation).

A.K.A. "tapping the number". The sound in the exchange of someone doing so was immediately recognisable. The days before subscriber trunk dialling when you could make trunk calls at the cost of a local call, provided you knew every local exchange prefix and had the patience/ability to dial huge numbers without error

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Strowger has not been operational for twenty plus years.

1995 ! Although that was the BT PSTN. I belive Hull kept them a while longer and there may still be some in some "private" UK networks.

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Strowger has not been operational for twenty plus years.

1995 ! Although that was the BT PSTN. I belive Hull kept them a while longer and there may still be some in some "private" UK networks.

Yep, mine was a conservative estimate… there was still the equipment, awaiting recovery, in Borne End exchange , when I started, that was 26 years ago. I guessed it was still working somewhere.

The story I was told, was that the kit went to Africa where it carried on doing its thang.

Indeed. It was.

But:"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

In reply to a post by pluralist:

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Yes. You can check this with remote sensing.

It's not that simple.

A falling tree will definatley disturb air. Whether that can be classed as a sound is dependent on whether anything with working ears is in the vicinity. Its unlikely that in a forest there are no hearing animals in the required range, so I would argue yes it does.

In reply to a post by MattJessop:

A falling tree will definatley disturb air. Whether that can be classed as a sound is dependent on whether anything with working ears is in the vicinity. Its unlikely that in a forest there are no hearing animals in the required range, so I would argue yes it does.

I agree with your first sentence, but the word "sound" might be best used when considering only human perceptions in the context of this question.

In the absence of a human witness to the event then there would be no perception of sound and thus one can not with certainty and absolute confidence say that there was a sound.

So, if "sound" is only what humans can perceive then there is a very narrow frequency of sound waves that would be considered sound. If the sound is outside of human hearing range (eg ultrasound) does that mean it is not sound as humans cannot perceive it?

In reply to a post by ian72:

So, if "sound" is only what humans can perceive then there is a very narrow frequency of sound waves that would be considered sound. If the sound is outside of human hearing range (eg ultrasound) does that mean it is not sound as humans cannot perceive it?

Outside of the context of human hearing then for sure there are inaudible frequencies, e.g. dog whistles. However consider this further issue regarding the unobserved falling tree. Take this syllogism:

A tree falls in the forest
All trees in the forest make a sound when they fall
Therefore the tree made a sound when it fell.

Is it true to state that all trees in the forest make an audible sound to the human ear when they fall?

I've lost interest.

It is a philosophical and metaphysical debate about what "sound" is. I don't agree with the debate that sound only exists if a human being is there to hear it. I am more on the physics side - sound is made up of waves and the waves exist and impact on the environment whether or not something "hears" it. A philosophical debate for those that have the time to have it - but for me the sound waves exist and will affect the environment even if in a small manner and therefore the sound itself exists. I also am not convinced that any tree falling in the forest would be completely silent.

It is indeed a metaphysical question. Which is why it is still argued about by philosophers.

In terms of hearing, is tinnitus a sound?

In reply to a post by pluralist:

In terms of hearing, is tinnitus a sound?

It certainly is for me

Yes, but no sound waves in the air are involved. It is entirely in your head.

I believe it is quite distressing when it is serious and frequent. I get it very slightly and rarely. I never notice when it stops, just that at some point I realise it has stopped.

I get it pretty much every day but most of the time I don't really notice it. Worst is lying in bed trying to get to sleep. If I have been in a loud environment then I can have it even whilst watching TV. It is not debilitating like it is for some but definitely can be annoying.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

Yes, but no sound waves in the air are involved. It is entirely in your head.

Not always true:

In reference to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus#Types:

In rare cases, tinnitus can be heard by someone else using a stethoscope. Even more rarely, in some cases it can be measured as a spontaneous otoacoustic emission (SOAE) in the ear canal.

Weird.

That's interesting BIll, thanks Though I don't think it really relates to the original question about the falling tree.

Very interesting is the part about possible occasional cause by prescription drugs either during use or on withdrawal.

In reply to a post by pluralist:

Though I don't think it really relates to the original question about the falling tree.

This thread has enjoyed quite a few brief off-topic excursions, I figured one more wouldn't hurt

Agreed, but .

PS: An even bigger "drift" in TTTS at the moment.

When I used to use my mobile phone in my (steel) cabin when passing, say Cape Town, I could always hear/feel the zip-zip of the GSM signal. Solved with a magnetic car aerial position near a window.

Also, during a SLT procedure (Selective Laser Trabeculoplasty) I could hear clicks for each firing of the laser, although the ophthalmologist could not - so he said.

Cheers!

Apologies for Off Topic,

@Ancient_Mariner ,
I've also had the SLC treatment, and yes during one of the treatments I could hear clicks.
I'm sure the professionals didn't believe me when I mentioned it later.
Anyway, I hope the treatment has worked for you, it's not always 100% successful.

It helped initially, but a few years on and my IOPs have just jumped up.

I was on drops, but found that the preservative caused upset and on the suggestion of the ophthalmologist I ceased using them for a couple of weeks, found that they were not actually doing anything other than being painful to use.

Has the SLT been successful for you?

I am booked in next week, so will see what my options are.

Cheers!