In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I'm a bit tired so won't make suggestions at the moment, but I'm posting to point out that if you do manage to sort out a way to move to TalkTalk, then you are likely to have the same problem if and when you want to leave TalkTalk.

To explain - what the helpful Vodafone person missed out was that there are two flavours of MPF. (Which stands for Metallic Path Facility - basically the use of the copper wires!). MPF and SMPF.

For all practical purposes "MPF" means both the phone and broadband are completely handled by LLU equipment. That will normally belong to Vodafone, TalkTalk or Sky.

"SMPF", (Shared Metallic Path Facility), in general means the phone service is provided through Openreach Wholesale Line Rental, (WLR), but the broadband can be with any ISP - BT Wholesale based or LLU. The confusing bit here is that (so far as I know) when you have both your phone and broadband with a BT Wholesale broadband supplier, (e.g. BT Retail, Plusnet, IDNet, etc.), it is still SMPF - shared between Openreach WLR and BT Wholesale broadband.

Vodafone use SMPF outside their LLU area, MPF within it. Sky and TalkTalk basically no longer offer SMPF except in rare circumstances. TalkTalk would be (Full) MPF and leaving them could give the same problem.

Sorry to be a prophet of doom .

Don't worry about being a "Prophet of doom", I would far rather know where I stand now, where I can go next and how I might be able to avoid this problem in the future - if I can! Actually it seems that changes taking place in the industry may make this increasingly difficult - despite the existence of the seemingly toothless OFCOM.

For some years now I have tried to make a point of changing ISP every year in order to benefit from "Introductory Offers" - I do the same with my car and house insurance. There has usually been no significant problem doing this with ISPs in the past, I get a different ADSL Modem/Router from the new ISP, return the old one to the ISP I am leaving and typically suffer 24 hours of no 'phone or Broadband.

Would I be correct in believing that Tesco/Vodafone switched me from SMPF to MPF without my knowledge and this is where my problems began?
How can I tell whether an ISP uses SMPF or MPF? They are unlikely to tell me, even if the salesperson knows and the online signup certainly isn't going to warn me.

I am sure that there are good technical reasons for all these shenanigans but it certainly seems that it makes switching harder and OFCOM seems to be incapable of keeping up with what is going on

In reply to a post by LockyOK:

Would I be correct in believing that Tesco/Vodafone switched me from SMPF to MPF without my knowledge

They probably put you on MPF from the start as that is what they operare at your exchange. Who were you with before Tesco? Did you mean that they were SMPF?

ISPs sell you a BB service; they don't necessarily specify to custs what technology they will use to achieve that service. Tesco is one of the better ones in that they do.

I think this is a deficiency in BB contracts. As an analogy, when you look at buying a car you can usually see the complete spec. of all the technology used to make the car.

Considering the specification of all the parts in a car you get told very little at the time of sale.Certainly no-one ever tells you the family/specification of the silicon that forms the electronic subsystems and most dealerships sales staff are probably stumped if you ask for location of OBD2 port

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

you get told very little at the time of sale.

Don't ask a car salesman, look online. Same goes for BB.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

<snip>
ISPs sell you a BB service; they don't necessarily specify to custs what technology they will use to achieve that service. Tesco is one of the better ones in that they do.
<snip>

Not in my case they didn't and frankly, getting any useful information out of Tesco/Vodafone has proven to be an absolute nightmare

No, they might not tell you but you can find it out on their website. See that link RobertoS gave you here. Not many ISPs are so open.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

No, they might not tell you but you can find it out on their website. See that link RobertoS gave you here. Not many ISPs are so open.

"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."

"But the plans were on display ..."

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

"That's the display department."

"With a flashlight."

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."

It's called research before you buy!

To be fair, the percentage of the population that understand anything about broadband outside how to use a browser and email has to be small. Expecting people to research the various land-based technologies before choosing a supplier is in my opinion pushing it.

Re the car example, do you know what type of power assistance the steering of yours has - assuming it has any? Whose engine management system does it have?

What suppliers should be doing is drawing specific attention to key factors such as this one, and in particular the implications. However, can we really expect any ISP to point out to potential customers that they may have a problem moving elsewhere later? Do Virgin Media?

As you say, Tesco, with that entry on their website, are amongst the better ones. But I only found it because I knew what I was looking for in the google search terms.

On the other hand, I'm with you to the extent that anyone always seeking for the cheapest deal on anything - not just broadband, particularly annually with discount deals, is one day going to come a cropper. Fortunately this isn't a major one.

Personally I keep the line rental BT based (WLR) with a different company to the one supplying broadband - that way the broadband can be 21CN WBC or partial LLU (SMPF) and there is no chance of falling into the trap of full LLU (MPF.)

Currently both line rental (Zen) and Broadband (xilo/uno TTB SMPF) are on one month minimum terms which does make things more expensive but it does give one more flexibility. The option of Plusnet FTTC broadband only and keeping line rental with Zen is also open to me but that would involve a long term contract with Plusnet for FTTC.

For the cheapest deals then line rental and broadband packages on long term contacts are the best but it is not always clear whether they are full LLU or not. Many folks walk into a TalkTalk full LLU package without being aware of it. However once with TalkTalk there is the option of re-contacting and switching from ADSL2+ to VDSL, something which my cousin has just done and he is not bothered about flexibility, LLU etc. since the service is fine and inexpensive

Best of luck with the migration of broadband and the line rental switch - think I would tend to avoid BT Retail and perhaps choose a Plusnet WLR/WBC contract in order to get out of the full LLU predicament.