Alternative to Hyperoptic with 1Gb upload? :: General Broadband Chatter

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jabuzzard
(experienced) Mon 20-May-24 17:54:53

Re: Alternative to Hyperoptic with 1Gb upload?

[re: seb] [link to this post]

No it's no 10GBaseT is not certified for use on Cat5e cable period. You might get away using a very short patch lead but trying to use it in structured cabling is as daft as a brush.

In a domestic environment you could use Cat6 which *is* certified for 10GBaseT for up to 55m and provided it is not bundled.

jabuzzard
(experienced) Mon 20-May-24 18:01:06

Re: Alternative to Hyperoptic with 1Gb upload?

[re: BLaZiNgSPEED] [link to this post]

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:
In 2018 we bought JONIFUN Cat 7 Ethernet Cable 15m - Fastest Cat7 Flat Ethernet Patch Cables 10GB for £12.39 as we didn't have an extra Ethernet cable. We opted for the Cat7 flat and we had no problems bending the cable. Looks like these are more flexible and thinner than our other Cat5e cables and lay on the edges of our laminate flooring.

We didn't feel like it was a waste of money as price difference wasn't specially different, only a few pounds more. Plus in future we won't need to change cables again and this will be a hassle.

Technically Cat7 and Cat8 cable are a bundle of four minature Twinax cables which is electrically very different from the balanced pairs of Cat5, Cat5e, Cat6 Cat6a that went before it. If this is not properly terminated at each end using CG45 or Terra connectors then you will get electrical reflections that could cause problems, especially at longer distances and higher speeds.

Basically at 1Gbps and 15m you are getting away with it, but try 10Gbps and it is likely not to work.

Note that zero equipment available for sale has CG45 or Terra connectors and even the supposedly Cat7 and Cat8 cables you buy does not, so technically it a trading standards issue as the cables are not compliant with the claimed standard, you *have* to use either CG45 or Terra connectors for the cable to be compliant.

XGS_Is_On
(committed) Mon 20-May-24 19:48:33

Re: Alternative to Hyperoptic with 1Gb upload?

[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:
Technically Cat7 and Cat8 cable are a bundle of four minature Twinax cables which is electrically very different from the balanced pairs of Cat5, Cat5e, Cat6 Cat6a that went before it. If this is not properly terminated at each end using CG45 or Terra connectors then you will get electrical reflections that could cause problems, especially at longer distances and higher speeds.

Basically at 1Gbps and 15m you are getting away with it, but try 10Gbps and it is likely not to work.

Note that zero equipment available for sale has CG45 or Terra connectors and even the supposedly Cat7 and Cat8 cables you buy does not, so technically it a trading standards issue as the cables are not compliant with the claimed standard, you *have* to use either CG45 or Terra connectors for the cable to be compliant.

Do you mean GG45 connectors?

10 Gbps works fine with regular RJ45 connectors and not great cable over home distances. Even with the microreflections and crosstalk 10-20m is short enough that it doesn't matter. At those distances failure to achieve 10G is a fault, not expected behaviour.

XGS_Is_On
(committed) Mon 20-May-24 19:49:47

Re: Alternative to Hyperoptic with 1Gb upload?

[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:
No it's no 10GBaseT is not certified for use on Cat5e cable period. You might get away using a very short patch lead but trying to use it in structured cabling is as daft as a brush.

In a domestic environment you could use Cat6 which *is* certified for 10GBaseT for up to 55m and provided it is not bundled.

Textbook versus reality. Runs fine nearly all the time.

seb
(founder) Mon 20-May-24 20:55:40

Re: Alternative to Hyperoptic with 1Gb upload?

[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]

I had it in my head 30 metres (which all my runs are less than) was ok for Cat5e on 10GBase-T

https://www.universalnetworks.co.uk/10gbaset-can-thi...

100m on Cat6a and Cat7 cable types
55m on Cat6 cable which is already deployed in many data centres
45m on Cat5e, the most commonly installed UTP cable types

Admittedly others don't include it so you're probably right it's not guaranteed.

seb

Sebastien Lahtinen
[email protected]

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.

seb
(founder) Mon 20-May-24 20:59:19

Re: Alternative to Hyperoptic with 1Gb upload?

[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:
Anything above 25Gbps the optics are either horribly expensive or you require expensive MTP patch cables which are also expensive. A 1m MTP cable is £48 from fs.com and two 100Gbps multimode transceivers are £222. If I wanted to use a bog standard LC-LC fibre optic cable the transceivers would be £212 *each*, and bizarrely single mode is cheaper. I think because they are on four wavelengths while the multimode is a single wavelength, they are £380 each!!!
On the other hand a 1m 100Gbps DAC cable is £36. Got a dozen 100Gbps links, you can bet your bottom dollar every link that I can do with DAC is done with DAC.

Tell me about it. We run 100G between buildings in datacentres wink

You can get 100G QSFP28 optics for much less if you go multimode. Single lamda optics are more flexible if you need to put them in waves. We still pay less than the above wink

seb

Sebastien Lahtinen
[email protected]

The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.

BLaZiNgSPEED
(committed) Wed 22-May-24 15:00:25

Re: Alternative to Hyperoptic with 1Gb upload?

[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]

Unfortunately, without actually having real life experience using 10Gbps I'll not know how much I'll get using any of the cables I have.
Something else to bear in mind apart from the cable we must not forget the hard drive and network card. You need a motherboard that supports 10Gbps or upgrade to a 10Gtek® 10Gb PCI-E NIC Network Card.

Unfortunately, most motherboards even amongst the best only give 2.5Gbps. I was looking at various motherboards to upgrade my PC and noticed how only a few even had 2.5G LAN.

The 10Gbps LAN motherboards can be found https://www.gigabyte.com/sg/Motherboard/10GbE-LAN
They cost a whopping £1200 more expensive than a high end gaming PC! Ok, I found the cheapest one Gigabyte Z690 AORUS MASTER £464.99

Still you might be better off getting a cheaper motherboard and separately buy a 10GbE LAN card.

Conventional hard drives can also be a bottleneck and might not even give full 1Gbps! Here's what I found out.
A typical 7200 RPM HDD will deliver a read/write speed of 80-160MB/s. 80Megabytes=0.64Gbps.

So if you were to use a traditional hard drive in speed test you'll be limited to as low as 640Mbps. Solution? Needs upgrading to Solid State Drive and reinstalling Windows or any other OS on it. Where as a typical 2.5' Sata SSD will be 560MB/s, which in gigabit 560MB/s is 4.48 Gigabits.

To harness 10Gbps or more you need the latest SSD M.2 but only motherboards with SSD M.2 slot will allow such installation. Along with 10GbE LAN support or network card and the cable that comes last!

This is why Community Fibre limit to 3Gbps because most customers simply don't have the required hardware to run it.

Because the hard drive has a write/read speed limitation broadband speeds have to be capped at a certain speed or you won't achieve them due to this bottleneck. 4.48Gbps is the most realistic FTTP speed package expectation for the mainstream market. But not many people know that they need high end PCs. It is also the CPU processor that needs upgrading.

candlerb
(knowledge is power) Wed 22-May-24 18:36:38

Re: Alternative to Hyperoptic with 1Gb upload?

[re: seb] [link to this post]

In reply to a post by seb:
I had it in my head 30 metres (which all my runs are less than) was ok for Cat5e on 10GBase-T

Depends what you mean by "ok". Will it work on, say, a 2m patch cord? Very likely. But then again, over short enough distances you could probably just use damp string.

Is it designed or certified to work? No. The 10GbaseT standard specifies Cat6 or Cat6A.

jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Wed 22-May-24 20:59:08

Re: Alternative to Hyperoptic with 1Gb upload?

[re: BLaZiNgSPEED] [link to this post]

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:
Something else to bear in mind apart from the cable we must not forget the hard drive and network card. You need a motherboard that supports 10Gbps or upgrade to a 10Gtek® 10Gb PCI-E NIC Network Card.

My 2021 desktop PC with 12th Gen Core i7, has no spinning rust drives. I have two 1TB SSDs which are both individually capable of 8 Gigabit/sec speeds (read and write). No issue doing that performance. A £68 add-on PCIexpress card can give 10GigE port, and all I need is a 10GigE switch. My Synology NAS already has the expansion card supporting 1/2.5/10GigE over copper. Its not “free in the box” as 2.5 GigE is today on desktops, but it won’t be much longer.

Those whom encrypt their drives in desktops are likely to get lower speeds.

(Apple users, the Mac Mini and the Mac Studio are available with 10GigE built in from Apple).

I haven’t a clue about USB4 / Thunderbolt 4 adaptors for laptops.

_{24 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM}

Chrysalis
(legend) Thu 23-May-24 14:57:12

Re: Alternative to Hyperoptic with 1Gb upload?

[re: BLaZiNgSPEED] [link to this post]

Pretty much yeah, a few of us have touched upon this problem, that 2.5gigabit has failed to become mainstream in the same way that gigabit did. Its still locked into high end with 10 gigabit still seen as non consumer. This is why we struggling to see consumer routers with a full set of 2.5 gig ports, so it remains prohibitively expensive.

On my LAN my firewall/router is a full set of i226 so fully 2.5gbit. My ONT is 2.5gbit. My main switch has one 2.5gbit port (this one linked to firewall) and 4 gigabit ports, and my PC has a onboard 2.5gbit port. rest of LAN is all gigabit. In practice this means my firewall is in and out both 2.5gbit links to ONT and main switch, routing my internet, but everything else is connected on 1gbit links. If i was to upgrade to a multi gig package, it does at least mean though I will be able to utilise it, just not all to one device. Probably how I would want it to be honest, it would act as a means of QoS.

Interestingly, if I go over about 30-40% utilisation on my PC sending data (at 1gbit link on realtek 2.5gbit NIC) I get an extra 5-15ms of latency (LAN latency) as well as much higher CPU usage, it has horrific behaviour in that regard, but none of my native Intel gigabit ports behave in that way. Had been considering sticking a i350 or something in here to use until I am full 2.5gbit LAN until I seen the cost.

Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 23-May-24 15:05:44)

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