NIMBYism

I've been accused of NIMBYism on another thread, by one of the most senior and respected members of this Forum. I've started another thread here, because the original thread was a simple question by a newcomer. I suspect I'm about to put my head in the lion's mouth, so I don't want to cause a big digression over there.

NIMBYism is a pejorative term and lazy generalisation that is very easy to throw around, and on a Forum such as this it's an easy point scorer and is usually going to meet with widespread assent. Preaching to the converted, after all. But Forum members are not representative of the general public, as we occasionally try to remind ourselves. There are generally (at least) two sides to any question, and the opinions and values of folks on here are not necessarily those of the ordinary public.

When Swish built here in 2021-22 they caused widespread disruption: almost all our footways and driveways were dug up at some point, there were piles of pipes and rubbish on every street corner, and temporary traffic lights everywhere meant getting around was often a nightmare. My next door neighbour was so annoyed by it all that he declared he would never do business with them, and he hasn't. He still has FTTC and is content with it - no, he doesn't "complain about how bad his internet is". I disagreed, and signed up with Swish, because I valued a faster, more reliable connection, and for me the installation upheaval was worth it. But I don't think my neighbour is a NIMBY - he just has different values, he doesn't weight a better connection as highly as I do.

The point of raising the eunetworks build is that the Swish fibre build experience is still fresh in people's memories, and now this winter we've been through it all again. eunetworks are not done yet, and there is much grumpiness about it. Villagers are going to be extremely annoyed if OR (or any other comms company) turn up in a few months and do it all for a third time. I know, I see them and talk to them on a daily basis. @Pheasant and others may be able to rationalise this as all for the greater good and view all naysayers as NIMBYs, but most people don't see it that way.

Personally I hope OR will come here asap. I hope that they'll be able to do most of their build by pulling fibre through their existing ducts and not digging, but for me, even if they do dig, almost any disruption would be worth it. I want an alternative to Swish that I can have some confidence will still be there tomorrow morning, and right now I don't have one. But I can understand the viewpoint of those who think that enough is enough and the benefit does not justify the pain. Do I or the Telcos morally have a right to ignore their point of view?

Last year EE and Three (as MBNL) applied to build a 5G mast in my village. We can't get 5G, and 4G isn't great (I typically get around -120dBm indoors, only just useable, but I use VoWifi and don't need data at home so it doesn't matter much). The proposal was not for a couple of those discreet monopoles that pop up all over the place these days, but for a 20m Meccano gantry with 8 antennae, straight from a North Korean industrial estate, to be sited on the village green in the middle of the village. Much as I would like 5G here, I sided with the protesters that 5G wasn't worth this horrendous eyesore and loss of amenity. There are alternative sites - we proposed a bit of waste ground by the allotments less than 200m away that I'm sure would have been almost as good for their purposes. So I don't think that every proposal for comms infrastructure necessarily needs to be blindly accepted. There are always tradeoffs. Does that make me a NIMBY?

Actually that last question doesn't matter. I learned long ago that name calling is the last resort of those who have no argument or who have lost the argument. I will listen to reason, but if you simply brand me with labels I will take no notice whatsoever.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

I suspect I'm about to put my head in the lion's mouth

Honestly what are you hoping to achieve by creating this thread apart from causing unnecessary mischief. I suspect you want your opinions\actions to be vindicated by others but all you're going to do is cause trouble between members.

He wants to be heard. I don't see that as causing mischief. If we are mature, we can let him have his say. It is a reasoned and balanced contribution which acknowledges that others have different views.

It's sort of irrelevant isn't it. The roads and footpaths are public land and there's no reason why a utility company digging them up has to be doing it for "the benefit of the community". In exchange for not really having any control over what happens to the road, the residents get it maintained by the local authority rather than having to deal with it themselves. If you search around for the connectivity deserts that get caused by non-adopted roads and residents who are happy with their 12Mbps ADSL2+ then that's the alternative.

I believe a lot of the problems stem from a sense of entitlement that people have to control "their" road, or they'll talk about "their" parking space in front of their house. The disruption caused by digging is a one-time thing, the benefits (or lack of, if people are successful in chasing a company away) could be decades long.

On the topic of "no benefit to us locals", at the end of the road I live on is one of those blue lines on the euNetworks metro maps, it connects to a datacentre in the town and then loops back out the other side. The company building that datacentre paid the electricity network operator an awful lot of money to increase the supply they were able to get, and new power cables were installed causing a lot of disruption, new substations were built. As a result when an underground cable blew up a couple of weeks ago, we lost power for three minutes before UKPN remotely closed another switch to route a supply in from elsewhere. It's often not possible to see the benefit to your village of a fibre network running through it, but there are downstream benefits to everything that gets built.

In reply to a post by Thaumaturge:

I will listen to reason, but if you simply brand me with labels I will take no notice whatsoever.

This thread suggests otherwise to be honest

Edited by jpm (Mon 03-Mar-25 12:38:09)

In reply to a post by DFScale:

He wants to be heard. I don't see that as causing mischief. If we are mature, we can let him have his say. It is a reasoned and balanced contribution which acknowledges that others have different views.

Hear hear!

In reply to a post by DFScale:

He wants to be heard. I don't see that as causing mischief. If we are mature, we can let him have his say. It is a reasoned and balanced contribution which acknowledges that others have different views

So lets hear your view on what the OP wants to discuss, until I made my comment nobody wanted to say anything.

In reply to a post by PCJM40:

In reply to a post by DFScale:

He wants to be heard. I don't see that as causing mischief. If we are mature, we can let him have his say. It is a reasoned and balanced contribution which acknowledges that others have different views

So lets hear your view on what the OP wants to discuss, until I made my comment nobody wanted to say anything.

I have made my comment and you have actually quoted it in full.

In reply to a post by DFScale:

He wants to be heard.

In reply to a post by DFScale:

I have made my comment and you have actually quoted it in full.

The problem with wanting to be heard is that those same people are not happy with what others think about their comments and ironically that is why the OP has specifically started this thread. The reason the OP started this thread has nothing to do with broadband just look at the title. May be the moderators should start a board for general non-broadband chatter.

Edited by PCJM40 (Mon 03-Mar-25 13:44:10)

Remember that on forums you come across people you probably wouldn't be friends with and who won't know you, so they only have what you say as context. I live on a road which has not been dug up and I suspect my neighbours would be most annoyed if it was dug up (we have ducts under here so shouldn't need to for fibre, when it comes!). Not wanting poles etc is quite understandable in some cases, but in the end it's about balancing everyone's interests. Some people don't care about speed but others do and just because your neighbours don't want faster broadband doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to get it. It's about finding a balance.

Someone senior in one of the altnets told me a while ago that people claimed no one on the road wants their fast broadband and everyone is happy with their existing service--what the person didn't know is that the altnet had tonnes of pre-orders before they planned the rollout. Again someone just listened to their own friends and maybe not everyone wanted to debate with them, but the community definitely wanted the service.

On the rubbish bit that's just bad - When I lived in a flat a few years ago we had Hyperoptic who installed cables above the raised ceiling so you couldn't see anything in the hallways. Then Virgin Media came and did a horrible job just putting conduit everywhere visible. Hyperoptic's installers told us they wouldn't get away with putting it visible but Virgin clearly did and it was cheaper. That really annoyed me as the halls were pretty clean before. So I get where this is coming from. Poles and ducts are ultimately a similar issue. The only thing is if you want a more expensive solution, are you willing to pay for it (and is everyone willing to do that).. Most people complain but won't pay so the economics gets complex.


seb

A reminder the euNetworks build is going through the village and will take the best and likely shortest route, that's all. Unfortunately you're on a logical route between two points of prescence. Similar happens to folks on main roads a fair bit.