PC hardware advice

I have a rather aging PC with a Gigabyte GA-8GEM667 motherboard

One of the hard drives was showing signs of failure, so bought a replacement and replaced yesterday

I'd also been intending to upgrade the processor from Celeron 2.2Ghz to Pentium 4 2.8Ghz Northwood Socket 478, so took the opportunity as the PC was opened up to do this at the same time. All checked as supported by mobo manufacturer
As the previous heatsink also needed replacing, I fitted a Super Silent 4 Ultra PC heatsink / fan

Upon turning the PC back on, got post error and found the issue was with the power for the heatsink / fan wasn't seated correctly

At that point I noticed that the fan on the PSU (X-Power GTX Lite 580W) wasn't running, but was lit up blue still. The Super Silent appeared to be running OK at this point after properly connecting and no more high frequency constant beeping
Unplugged one of the hard drives thinking may be not enough power - still no fan running on PSU

System also has DVD writer, CD-ROM, 2 IDE hard drives, floppy drive, AGP graphics card (SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON X1300 256MB)

More testing later and the PSU went bang, therefore thinking this is just a simple PSU failure issue, but a little concerned that there may be an issue with the CPU or heatsink.
Never having replaced a CPU or heatsink before, I'm not sure what I should be looking for if there is a problem. Prior to the PSU failure, the PC just wouldn't start up, nothing displayed on screen which to me suggests a power supply issue

I'm in the process of sourcing a replacement PSU - any suggestions welcome. I Liked the GTX Lite, so will likely replace with the same

Thanks

Nicola

If there's a fan on the heatsink it should spin on power up. If not, you can always wait a little and see if the heatsink gets warm (might not get very warm).

Based on what you've said a replacement PSU is in order anyway, so wait to see what happens then. If not sure about the whole thing, just try a barebones boot up (CPU, mem, gfx) to see if you get BIOS/POST screens. It helps eliminate everything else if there's a problem at that stage.

Did you reset the BIOS to a low setting prior to the CPU change? Older setups didn't always have mobo safetys built in, and your 2.8 might have been booting at the 2.2 settings (which doesn't necessarily mean anything bad, but might).

A 2.8GHz Northwood draws about 20% or more than a 2.2 celery. Althought the PSU might have been rated at 580w at one time, age will have degraded its abilities to provide that kind of power, especially if said PSU was not built to provide 'x' power to the rail the CPU uses.


See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply_unit_%28co...

* There is a popular misconception that a greater power capacity (watt output capacity) is always better. Since supplies are self-certified, a manufacturer's claims may be double or more what is actually provided.[6][7] Although a too-large power supply will have an extra margin of safety as far as not over-loading, a larger unit is often less efficient at lower loads (under 20% of its total capability) and therefore will waste more electricity than a more appropriately sized unit. Additionally, computer power supplies generally do not function properly if they are too lightly loaded. (less than about 15% of the total load.) Under no-load conditions they may shut down or malfunction.For this reason the no-load protection was introduced in some power supplies.

* Another popular misconception is that the greater the total watt capacity is, the more suitable the power supply becomes for higher-end graphics cards. The most important factor for judging a PSUs suitability for certain graphics cards is the PSUs total 12V output, as it is that voltage on which modern graphics cards operate. If the total 12V output stated on the PSU is higher than the suggested minimum of the card, then that PSU can fully supply the card. It is however recommended that a PSU should not just cover the graphics cards' demands, as there are other components in the PC that depend on the 12V output, including the CPU , disk drives and optical drives.

From what I can find out (and it's not a lot) that PSU doesn't have a particularly good repuatation, and it does seem to be very cheap. With PSUs you get what you pay for. Personally, as you have to buy a new one, I would pay a little more and get one from a reputable manufacturer - Corsair, Antec, and CoolerMaster are all pretty highly aclaimed.

Was an emergency replacement just over 3 years ago from a Maplin store and choice was very limited at the time
I was also concerned at buying something which either didn't have enough power connectors or the right ones

Also OCZ for me. PSUs are like HDDs and memory. Everyone has had good and bad luck with different brands.

To the OP:


Using:

http://www.antec.outervision.com/PSUEngine

Have specced a PSU assuming:

2.8 Nthwd
2 x sticks DDR RAM *
x1300 gfx
2 x 7200rpm IDE *
1 x CD ROM
1 x DVD RW
1 x FDD
2 x 80mm fans *
2 x PCI cards *

* Had to guess at these a bit.

The spec includes a capacitor ageing of 40% (3 years use). Comes back as 394w. Normally I would recommend at least a 450w on that basis, but you have to balance two things. Will you be adding to the system? If so, plan ahead. How long do you intend to run this system assuming it still works? It's made up of older parts, and you might end up spending cash on a PSU to power a series of breakdowns. Just something to keep in mind.

+1 Vote for OCZ from me. Really solid pieces of kit.

I like their modular offerings e.g. http://www.ebuyer.com/product/152008 particularly as they can help cut down on unnecessary cables.

Always read the specs carefully in regards to what connectors a PSU comes with particularly if running higher end GFX cards. e.g. my NVidia GTS250 requires 2 6pin PCI-E connectors. So I found a PSU that could provide that from 2 separate power rails.

I have the Stealth XStream 700w one. Non-modular. So far, so good.

Thanks Camieabz

That's an excellent link and not bad guesswork

The only PCI card I have in the system is a 56k PCI modem. The NIC is onboard
I think one of the drives is 5400rpm - the new one is a WD 7200rpm.
2 x 512MB DDR RAM
Other than that, I can have up to 6 USB devices plugged in at a time, although that does vary somewhat

I've been looking to replace with a 600W PSU to future proof a little

Very similar, although that looks to be slightly deeper / chunkier. Not the cheapest PSUs out there, but peace of mind is priceless to me. I've used various OCZs in half a dozen boxes now and no problems to date at all. (Famous last words!).

I was considering modular - it's a really packed system, so getting rid of the unneeded cables has it's pro's

In my case, it's more a case of support for the AGP gfx. I've since discovered a multitude of adaptors, so not so much of an issue

It doesn't hurt.

Many systems never come near to drawing on the PSU's total rating, as it's hard to use all of the parts at once (two optical drives, two HDDs, max CPU, max gfx). Benchmarks suites might push things a bit though. However it's important with the older systems to check the CPU rail. In this case P4 Northwoods used the 12v rail, while other older CPUs used the 5v rail.

A better read:

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psurailhistory/rails.html

Suffice it to say, as long as the PSU you select has the correct ATX plug for the mobo, I'm pretty sure the rail won't be an issue nowadays. They tend to be rated massively in comparison to what they were in 2000-2004.

It's 20 pin connection for power to the mobo

Yup. You'll just need to check the spec of the one you want to make sure it's either 20 pin or (more likely) a 20+4 connector.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connecto...

Doh

Guess it would likely have helped to have connected the 4pin 12V power to the mobo, as well as the fan connector

Hi, I got just a cheap generic 550w ATX PSU in my PC it has been working trouble free since 2005 and cost me £25. It supplies power to Intel Pentium Prescott 3.20 GHz processor.

Good choice at Eclipse Computers Coventry. http://www.eclipsecomputers.com/products.aspx?cat=0&...

I had a very bad experience with Eclipse when I originally bought the graphics card I have from them.

As ordered it was AGP and clearly stated so on their website, but when it arrived it was PCI Express. They claimed it said PCI-E on the website. I would not have ordered it if it had been, as the mobo does not support PCI-E at all

They then changed their minds and said I was correct and I had ordered a AGP card, but these were out of stock so thought they'd send me the PCI-E one instead. I got a refund on cost, but not delivery and they refused to reimburse me for the delivery cost to send the wrong card back, despite it being their error. It was also close to Xmas, so meant a very long queue in the Post Office to get it sent back

I will never order anything from them again

Since I've gone through about 6 PSU's in this PC and they were all cheap ones, I've taken the advice here onboard and am going for a Corsair which suits my needs and is only a little more than my budget allows

Thanks for the suggestion anyhow

In reply to a post by E7er:

Hi, I got just a cheap generic 550w ATX PSU in my PC it has been working trouble free since 2005 and cost me £25. It supplies power to Intel Pentium Prescott 3.20 GHz processor.

A youngster - my Win98 PC purchased in '98 was running until late 2009. It was then scrapped but the PSU given away to replace one that had failed. It is still going strong.

For nearly 12 years it ran 24 hours/day - over 104,000 hours and since then another 15,000+

Hi, thanks for the info of your experience with Eclipse Computers, I was about to purchase an HDMI AGP graphics card from them. Thanks again!

That's some going there, but then again I nkow it's perfectly possible

Those at work typically last 4 - 5 years (apart from the older beige Elonex's we have), but are generally switched off at the end of the day.

This current one had done quite well and had been going just over 3 years running 24/7 with very heavy use

2 of them went when the power was turned off in the house without shutting the PC down (despite instruction beforehand). Despite believing they were plugged into surge protectors, things had been moved around and they unfortunately weren't.

I blew 2 when I fitted a USB extension kit and got the polarity wrong. They were both very cheap Maplin own brand PSU's

The original one that came with the PC (which was given to me by my youngest sister as it had a problem and she'd bought a replacement - problem was a virus), was replaced when I upgraded the motherboard. Was almost 5 years then and was
running W98 for about 7 years

The main feed to the house for the electricity supply is dodgy and the area has suffered from low voltage supply issues - doesn't help matters

I have my preferred suppliers these days - Scan, Ebuyer, Novatech, Aria and Microdirect (in no particular order)
Have bought quite a bit via Scan in the last 2 years, as delivery is usuallly very reliable. Would be good if they were linked with Quidco!

Eclipse came highly recommended to me, but I was totally put off by my experience.

Also used to use Dabs until they were bought by BT - prices just aren't compettive enough

Have ordered the new PSU from Novatech and provided it tracks OK, I should get 3% cashback - a grand total of about £2! All adds up though

Novatech for me! (Helps that I live nearby, and can collect if I want to, but I'd use them anyway.)

The only problem that I have ever had with anything from them was a video card that was playing up. After about 5 minutes online chat with one of their reps (to be fair I had to wait a couple of minutes for one to be available) I had a returns no. They then e-mailed me a pre-paid label to print off, so all I had to do was wrap it up and post it at no cost to myself. A couple of days later and there's a telephone call confirming that the card is faulty. I took the opportunity to exchange it for a better one (OK I had to pay the difference, but....) and it was with me next day.

I don't think that I could expect better service than that. (Oh, and although it was all free postage, rather than paying extra for next-day delivery, both the original and the replacement arrived the day after I ordered them.) And, no, I don't work for Novatech; just a satisfied customer for the past 10 years or so.

Good to know

I live near Misco or rather what was Simply Computers - not sure they are even there now since the Misco buy out. I'd avoid ordering from them though, even though I'm still in contact with our old account manager. They were our supplier when I worked for the council

If you regularly suffer voltage fluctations / brown-outs / black-outs on the mains in the long run it would probably be financially advantageous to invest in a decent UPS that will step in and stabilise the line voltage as required. Your PSUs will thank you and in turn your other PC components will thank you when your PSU doesn't go pop and kill them.

Just food for thought

Exactly my thinking, despite the PC's age

I have a "low supply" typically 215 to 220 V for a lot of the day but that should not be a problem as most good supplies are rated 90 - 265 V and 45 to 65Hz.

People criticise Dell but experience of their reliability and longevity still tells me they are one of the best brands around.

If not my local computer shop I use Scan first choice - they're about 30-40 minutes drive. Second choice is Microdirect - 15 minutes drive. Though I have reservations with buying RAM from MD, I've too often seen their staff handling unbagged memory cards with their bare hands, fingers on contacts. That was a few years ago so perhaps they're better now.

E-buyer, Microdirect, Dabs and occasionally overclockers.co.uk

Depends on the best price/delivery situation. Sometimes better to split orders between them.

PSU delivered and waiting for me at home

http://www.corsair.com/power-supplies/non-modular-ps...

Good choice Nicola in my humble opinion.

Same here. Ive got one of their modular PSUs and it just oozes quality.

Just to get the credit where it's due, most Corsair PSU's (including the TX650) are infact made by Seasonic.

Not that i'm knocking Corsair, i've bought enough of their memory over the years, both are mightily solid brands.

Edited by deleted (Fri 18-Mar-11 22:54:59)

In reply to a post by nredwood:

..... Since I've gone through about 6 PSU's in this PC.....

There were a few boards of about this vintage that exhibited strange behaviours including PSU strains and related BSOD's etc. Memory is something of a stranger these days but something tells me that they may well have been Gigabyte boards.
The problem was eventually found to be within the PCB manufacturing process whereby the boards were wrongly cut and exposed PCB tracks were unwittingly brought out to the edge of the board at the backplane end.
The cure was simple - Remove the board, stick a narrow strip of insulation tape across the back of the board so that the edge was no longer exposed to the case or addin cards metalwork.

If it isn't that, watch out for the board mounts as I've often seen a metal standoff and screw where plastic or even nothing at all should have been used. Sometimes, insulating washers are left off and even a slightly bent case chassis can cause problems.
Often, these "short hazards" won't be noticeable until the temparature rises enough to cause expansion and bang!

Finally got around to getting the PC going again

Very happy with the PSU and all seems to be working well with the new CPU, heatsink and hard drive

Thank you to all for the advice

PSU replaced and all working fine along with the new CPU and heatsink

Thanks for al the help and advice