Closing apps

Snow Leopard.

When I'm closing an app, rather than use the "Quit <app>" from the menu bar I'll often right-click the dock icon and quit from there. Especially if the app's window has disappeared behind another in the foreground!

Is there any downside to doing it this way as, although any relevant "Save changes?" dialogs come up, count-down boxes don't?

(Obviously, "Force Quit" on a bombed app is a different matter.)

Never seen a countdown box on a normal Quit command, only Save prompts where appropriate.

I'd be very surprised if there were. As you get the "Save changes?" dialog the application is obviously intercepting the close message and doing the appropriate housekeeping. As you say, "Force Quit" is another matter. I'm actually surprised to see that option - it really shouldn't be necessary except in extreme circumstance.

I think the Windows method of only providing such an option if the application fails to close in a timely manner is the better one. (Yes, I know there are other ways to force a Windows application to close, but it's not a part of the default UI.)

In reply to a post by ian_c:

Never seen a countdown box on a normal Quit command, only Save prompts where appropriate.

Depends on the app- most don't, Opera does, and one or two others I've got I think... but can't remember which!

As you say, "Force Quit" is another matter. I'm actually surprised to see that option - it really shouldn't be necessary except in extreme circumstance.

It's just a kill -9. Perfectly standard in Unix.

I'm well aware of that. All OSes provide the option to force kill a process somehow. But I am still of the opinion that it has no place in the default UI which is aimed at the more naive user. It is much more user-friendly to try to close an application gracefully and only present the SIGKILL option if that fails.

Just my opinion.

In reply to a post by AnotherExPipex:

I am still of the opinion that it has no place in the default UI

Depends what you mean by "default UI". It only appears if the normal Quit fails, or if the Activity Monitor is reporting "Application not responding".

edit- in my experience

Edited by billford (Wed 21-Jul-10 12:26:17)

Huh? So if a process hangs (which they sometimes do, on all systems) the user should have no recovery until the OS deems it OK? Very Windows thinking that.

Kill -9 kills only the specific process and is quite safe to use under the Force Quit menu because that only lists running applications, not any system processes. It is quick and convenient when Firefox an application stops responding and I don't have to wait for the OS to give me permission.

I have never met a Mac user who uses it in anything other than an emergency (and most of them don't even know it is there).

Haven't fired up Ubuntu for a while, but I imagine it has much the same functionality.

Depends what you mean by "default UI".

It's under the Apple menu.

In reply to a post by ian_c:

It's under the Apple menu.

So it is... never noticed that before

QED. Third para

Touch�

I thought it was an ever-present option. (But I don't care enough to fire up my Mac to check.) If it does behave as you suggest then that is a better design than I had supposed.

I was wrong- it is ever-present, see earlier in the thread.

It was just somewhere I'd never noticed it!

So if a process hangs (which they sometimes do, on all systems) the user should have no recovery until the OS deems it OK? Very Windows thinking that.

I'd consider it to be more a matter of protecting the user from hasty action that they might regret. So, for once, we are in agreement - Very Windows thinking that.

Haven't fired up Ubuntu for a while, but I imagine it has much the same functionality.

Sorry - missed that bit. No, Linux behaves like Windows in this respect (well certainly KDE does). You won't find a SIGKILL option as part of the default UI. You can (obviously) do it from the command line, or it will be presented as an option if a program doesn't close in a timely manner. Good design.

Obviously opinions vary, but I still don't see it as having a place in the default UI. The user should be protected from unintended consequences of their actions.

hasty action that they might regret.

In what way might they regret it?

In reply to a post by AnotherExPipex:

Obviously opinions vary, but I still don't see it as having a place in the default UI.

I'd agree with that, it should either not be there or follow the option on the dock icon

The user should be protected from unintended consequences of their actions.

That's a whole can of worms that I'm not getting in to

Well, if I "force quitted" an application with an important document in it then I guess that I might later regret it.

Having spent many years nursing naive users I would definitely stand by my statement!

(Best one was the lady who reported that her keyboard was on fire - when I got there I found a bit of red tinsel left over from Christmas in it.)

Ubuntu/ Gnome has System Monitor under System > Administration that let's you kill any process (roughly its equivalent of the Apple Menu).

That is much more dangerous. Force Quit only allows you to kill applications.

In reply to a post by AnotherExPipex:

Having spent many years nursing naive users I would definitely stand by my statement!

(Best one was the lady who reported that her keyboard was on fire - when I got there I found a bit of red tinsel left over from Christmas in it.)

Oh, so have I... the prize probably being a highly qualified QA engineer who took six months to discover that you could type upper case by holding the shift key down instead of CapsLock, character(s), CapsLock

But I've still got reservations about over-protective OS's/apps.

Why would you force quit it, rather than hit the very familiar cmd-Q (Force Quit puts a "Lost data" warning in front of the actual kill command - ignoring it this has identical consequences to clicking "Don't Save")?

Edited by ian_c (Wed 21-Jul-10 13:20:42)

Ubuntu/ Gnome has System Monitor under System > Administration that let's you kill any process (roughly its equivalent of the Apple Menu).

Well, I'd have said that was more directly equivalent to Task Manager in Windows or Activity Monitor in OS X than to an option on the applications menu bar.

I'll offer a friend who didn't realise that her iPhone was also a fully functional iPod...

Why would you force quit it, rather than hit the very familiar cmd-Q

You tell me. I'm the one who's arguing that the option shouldn't be there!

In reply to a post by AnotherExPipex:

Ubuntu/ Gnome has System Monitor under System > Administration that let's you kill any process (roughly its equivalent of the Apple Menu).

Well, I'd have said that was more directly equivalent to Task Manager in Windows or Activity Monitor in OS X than to an option on the applications menu bar.

It is, but in terms of user interface it is in exactly the same place as Force Quit on OSX.

Force Quit is a hand-held and heavily protected alternative to Activity Monitor/ Terminal. It gives a degree of control to the user (and gives AppleCare staff an easy to navigate to option rather than freaking "naive" users with arcana).

Given Job's well known antipathy to task managers, I suspect the UI people had to work very hard to persuade him that Force Quit was a good thing.

But I've still got reservations about over-protective OS's/apps.

I'm not sure that I would classify Windows' default behaviour of warning you before closing an application to be "over-protective"!

Given Job's well known antipathy to task managers, I suspect the UI people had to work very hard to persuade him that Force Quit was a good thing.

If so then he was right and they were wrong. Activity Monitor is the place for such an option.

But it's all just a matter of opinion and not worth getting worked up about.

In reply to a post by AnotherExPipex:

But I've still got reservations about over-protective OS's/apps.

I'm not sure that I would classify Windows' default behaviour of warning you before closing an application to be "over-protective"!

That would be identical to Apple's then...

Then I don't understand the different options. What's wrong with a close button and, if the application hangs, the option to force quit? No need for a separate "Force Quit" (IMO) if it just duplicates the functionality of "Quit".

If so then he was right and they were wrong. Activity Monitor is the place for such an option.

Here's an idea - try looking at it in action. Then you wouldn't look quite so much like you are using pedantry as a substitute for reason.

Force Quit is not Activity Monitor. Not is it a task manager. It is a quick and convenient place to kill hung Firefox applications. It has no wider use and gives proper warnings about lost data.

It is for when Firefox the application won't respond to cmd-Q. And you are quite right - it is a UI implementation of a keystroke (and actually a little safer since with keystrokes it is easy to use them with the wrong application in focus, while the menu lists running applications and notes if they are not responding). Different ways of doing things for different preferences. Whoda thunk it.

Apple > Force Quit... > [select the application you want to kill] > Force Quit > [Do you want to force xxx to quit? You will lose any unsaved changes.] > Force Quit

Hard to do by mistake.

Here's an idea - try looking at it in action.

Here's an idea. I have. Don't be so pompous.

Well, I still prefer the Windows approach of try to close the task gracefully and if that doesn't happen offer the option of "Force Quit". I really don't know, in any OS, that an application is irretrievably hung until I try to close it. And once I've found out that I can't close it because it's hung, then let the computer do the work - that's what they're there for.

Different strokes for different folks - nothing to start a religious war about!

In reply to a post by AnotherExPipex:

Here's an idea - try looking at it in action.

Here's an idea. I have. Don't be so pompous.

Your petard, I believe

I can't remember the last time I dragged a cursor up to the menu bar to find 'quit', it's COMMAND-Q all the way. It may be because my left hand rests on the keyboard constantly likely due to the way I use a computer for work.

In reply to a post by macduffintosh72:

it's COMMAND-Q all the way.

That would be an easy keystroke combination for me too... might be worth seeing if I can get into the habit

Still easier to use "Quit" from the dock if the app has got itself hidden behind another window though.

Good point! I do love contextual menus though they're not used enough by most people and are applicable in all the applications I use. Changing the desktop image using a CTRL-CLICK (or two-finger tap on trackpad) on the desktop is an easy example.

F9 is useful too, when you've "lost" an application!

That's a fn-F9 for me though I could change that configuration to one key.