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Looks like EE has potentially become quite congested in my area, 4g struggling to clear 20mbps, but magically hits the EE essentials cap in the early hours of the morning, hmm I wonder what would cause that.
Now 5g is officially available at my address, indoor and outdoor coverage.
I turned it on and its even worse, about 7mbps. Outdoors it only slightly improved.
Full signal bars on both 4g and 5g.
What good is 5g if its oversold like crazy?
BT please sell back to the original EE owners so we can go back to it being a high priced premium network.
Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 19-Nov-23 16:18:14)
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Re: Isnt 5g supposed to be really fast?
That's the mistake, thinking the "G" is related to speed. Its a protocol, and it depends how much capacity is allocated to the protocol. Unfortunately the (simplistic) marketing is all about speed, as they have nothing else to talk about.
My town has no 5G on EE, Vodafone or O2, and yet I can regularly manage 150 to 200 Mbps on 4G, which if you talk to some Americans they think is impossible.
If you have phone that can report the bands (e.g. Android with Cellmapper, or iPhone Field Test) you can see if you are getting a real 5G NR NSA signal, or if you have a 5G indicator which is actually still a 4G LTE signal. Thanks to the GSM Association the 5G indicator is virtually meaningless.
Depending where you are EE are deploying 5G on various frequency bands, in some cases replacing 4G, but in most cases additional to. This means often it is quite a high frequency such as Band 78 which is 3400 MHz and will have issues getting indoors, unless you are right by a glass window (without any heat reflecting film).
A useful list of frequencies and deployment here:
https://mastdatabase.co.uk/gb/spectrum/
BT please sell back to the original EE owners so we can go back to it being a high priced premium network. Unlikely as Orange wanted out, and Deutsche Telekom still have a shareholding.
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Edited by jchamier (Sun 19-Nov-23 16:53:39)
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What bands am I looking for? To determine if I have fake 5g or real 5g.
My 4G used to be great so I think it does look like a simple capacity problem.
Network cell info lite reports it as LTE, but its possible that app is not recognising it properly. So I took it with a grain of salt.
Cellmapper reports what seems to be band B3 1846mhz.
However when I dropped it to 4G, it stayed on the same band.
If I force the phone to connect to NR only, it fails to connect to anything, even outside.
Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 19-Nov-23 20:50:27)
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LTE is 4g!!!!!! Go to raw on Network cell info lite and screen grab the info. Note that the info will give a clue to where you are located .
Regarding 5G; 99% of 5g in the uk is piggy backing onto 4g - ie 5g nsa, once we get more standalone 5g things will improve.
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Network cell info lite reports it as LTE, but its possible that app is not recognising it properly. So I took it with a grain of salt.
Cellmapper reports what seems to be band B3 1846mhz.
Run both of these apps when also doing a speedtest. The way 5G is set up (Non-Standalone Architecture) the 5G is like an overtaking lane. The phone sits on 4G until the overtaking lane is needed.
However when I dropped it to 4G, it stayed on the same band.
If I force the phone to connect to NR only, it fails to connect to anything, even outside.
Because the only "standalone architecture" in the UK is limited access, and in London with Vodafone.
EE's uses Band 3 for the bulk of its UK wide capacity on 4G/LTE
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Edited by jchamier (Mon 20-Nov-23 05:04:22)
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LTE is 4g!!!!!! Go to raw on Network cell info lite and screen grab the info. Note that the info will give a clue to where you are located . And as you state, the UK (and much of the world!) is using Non-Standalone Architecture, the phone will ALWAYS be connected to 4G/LTE for signalling and use the 5G NSA signal as an overtaking lane.
Regarding 5G; 99% of 5g in the uk is piggy backing onto 4g - ie 5g nsa, once we get more standalone 5g things will improve. Vodafone have standalone around in some cities, see "Vodafone 5G Ultra" for those with some Samsung handsets on the right plans.
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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5G is awful in a lot of places, as already been posted, 5G don't mean speed, even if it is marketed as such. I know a few people who have phones with 5G and say 5G is so bad sometimes they disable it.
Adrian
Desktop machines Mac mini pro with macOS Ventura, also pc Ryzen powered with windows something or other.
Zooming with Zzoomm FTTP,
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Problem is here the 4G has gone bad as well, if it was just 5G I wouldnt be bothered.
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I know its 4G, but an app doesnt necessarily recognise something right.
As an example on this phone net analyzer thinks I am connecting over 3G.
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Seems a little bit complex, so if I understand you right me seeing the same band for both doesnt matter, as extra band's open up if I push enough traffic?
I have now reported the slow speeds to EE without mentioning the 4G/5G stuff, and made it very clear it is back to full speed during quiet periods but tumbles like a stone outside of those hours, and it used to be full speed or close to full speed round the clock so a clear service degradation.
Later I will see if I can switch apps whilst a speedtest is running and screen record it.
Edited by Chrysalis (Mon 20-Nov-23 08:24:45)
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Bear in mind also that on this 5G NSA that most of us can have, the upstream is still always 4G. That's the basic problem.
Connections: OnePlus 8 Pro on Three 4+ (LTE)/5G and at home Three Mobile, with (Three)ZTE MF286D router giving about 113/20Mbps.
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Seems a little bit complex, so if I understand you right me seeing the same band for both doesnt matter, as extra band's open up if I push enough traffic? I've seen that happen on Three using my Android phone. With "NSA" the phone sits on 4G and only uses 5G when it needs it. Some phones have options to force using 5G more often, but one reason for this is to save battery.
I have now reported the slow speeds to EE without mentioning the 4G/5G stuff, and made it very clear it is back to full speed during quiet periods but tumbles like a stone outside of those hours, and it used to be full speed or close to full speed round the clock so a clear service degradation. We had that during the first lockdown, speeds of 80 Mbps before dropped to 0.5 Mbps. EE was able to add capacity electronically, but eventually by mid 2021 they replaced the transmitter panels on the local mast and that oepend up a LOT more capacity. All 4G. No sign of 5G here on EE or Vodafone or O2.
Later I will see if I can switch apps whilst a speedtest is running and screen record it. Depending on how much download allowance you have a large file from thinkbroadband may be another way to test.
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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We have to always factor in congestion, which can happen on the 4g spectrum quite easily plus 3 at night switch off alot of their bands to save money .
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We have to always factor in congestion, which can happen on the 4g spectrum quite easily plus 3 at night switch off alot of their bands to save money .
EE have an entire mast here (on the telephone exchange) that powers down overnight.
Congestion was much worse on 3G, as it just stops. On 4G at least things keep working just slower and slower... 
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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5G are suppose to be less congestion in network area but never does! Most people disabled 5G and get better signal on 4G
Edited by adslmax (Mon 20-Nov-23 15:58:28)
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5G are suppose to be less congestion in network area but never does! Most people disabled 5G and get better signal on 4G
You're confused, better capacity when there is the same/similar amount of radio spectrum allocated.
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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Problem investigated with no problems found SMS reply from EE.
Following data is with 5G enabled on phone and 5G icon.
What i could get in cellmapper in time I had before test ended.
All tagged as unknown -LTE
1846mhz
1861mhz
2162mhz
2662mhz
Speedtest result 8.55am 121 down 56 up
9.47am 95.1 down 63 up
10.22am 118 down 70 up
Was busy for a while.
15.57pm 22 down upload failed to finish, error in app
15.59pm 14 down upload failed to finish, error in app
16:00pm 18 down upload failed to finish, error in app
With phone set to 4G, it now flat lines at around 10mbit after an initial spike, wont lie it looks like a throttle. Upload test still fails.
Going to do some testing to one of my servers, and see if rwin or something is getting modified by some shapers.
Edited by Chrysalis (Wed 22-Nov-23 16:08:05)
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All tagged as unknown -LTE
1846mhz - Band 3
1861mhz - Band 3
2162mhz - Band 1
2662mhz - Band 7
You can see here which protocols are run on which frequencies by each network operator - https://mastdatabase.co.uk/gb/spectrum/
LTE for all means you are NOT receiving a 5G signal, you should get "NR" as the protocol. So as in my first reply the "5G indicator is lying" to you.
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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Yeah thanks for confirming my thoughts, although I wouldnt be bothered if 4g was working normally.
I have noticed as well, its not just a speedtest thing, using apps and such, I am getting missing images and very visible lag over mobile data (at this time of the day) when in months past I wouldnt have this issue.
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This reminds me of when 4G was released, it was more reliable and obtained faster speeds telling the phone to stick with 3G, I did this for I'm not sure how long, maybe a couple of years, before 4G had matured enough to not only be reliable and faster but also was able to handle voice calls.
5G is just exactly the same, I've disabled it and sticking with 4G. Once 5G has matured enough to be able to handle voice calls like you might expect a mobile signal to do from the outset, then that usually means its good enough to use daily, of course by then 6G will be around the corner and I'm sure I will do exactly the same thing, stick with the previous version for some time.
The main issue is marketing, they want people to upgrade perfectly good phones and one way to do that is to come out with the next version, so they just rush it half finished to market.
We are probably 3 or 4 years away from wide availability of a finished 5G version, which is 5G standalone.
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Not quite true… its about capacity. When 4G first launched (EE in 2012) it was only 10MHz of spectrum allocated as the rest of the radio waves were used by 2G and 3G. Same with O2 and Vodafone whom (2013) launched with 10 MHz spectrum. Over time the capacity increased, and depending on your area/town/city each operator has different amounts they can deploy.
In my part of my town, EE has 75 MHz of spectrum deployed to 4G across 2 carriers of Band 3, and two carriers of Band 7. Whereas Vodafone has 25 MHz across one carrier of Band 20 and one carrier of band 1.
5G today is more efficient (even non-standalone) but there is only limited capacity deployed because a lot of people still using handsets that don’t do 5G….
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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We are probably 3 or 4 years away from wide availability of a finished 5G version, which is 5G standalone.
My understanding is that this isn’t quite true…. (Not that simple).
Standalone means a 5G core network as well as 5G NR (new radio) signal being transmitted.
Non-Standalone means using the 4G core network, but using 5G NR (new radio) signals to provide additional capacity, whilst using the 4G signals (LTE) to manage the setup and calls.
The 4G core is pretty good, some parts of the UK people see speeds over 500 Mbps on 4G, but to get all the benefits of 5G, including low latency (which many people really don’t care about) the whole new core has to be built. Which is expensive.
Also the 5G antenna panels are mostly ‘active’ and ‘Massive MIMO’ which is quite different to the passive antenna panels used for 2G/3G/4G and these things are massive (size of large doors) mounted high up in the air, or on buildings.
4G (actually LTE) was a massive jump forward from the old circuit-switched days, to the packet switched world. Same as moving from dialup to an ISP to a broadband system. It also means you can share the capacity with many more people, slower speeds but still connected, instead of getting saturation.
Those whom remember London railway stations before 4G will remember the congestion/saturation effect.
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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What good is 5g if its oversold like crazy?
The purpose of 5G is to allow the networks to get more for the same spectrum and provide efficiencies to them.
You aren't the beneficiary. You just got duped into thinking it so you'd get 5G things.
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Got a dual sim phone so going to order a 5p mobile sim which is on uncapped EE bandwidth, as I am curious if this is something related to me being on essentials, I suspect it might not be a mere 100mbit cap but also a lower priority during peak hours, I have barely use mobile data since moving over to that and the previous good performance was on uncapped.
I already observe e.g. that giffgaff is consistently faster than O2.
Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 23-Nov-23 15:20:18)
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I already observe e.g. that giffgaff is consistently faster than O2.
Quite some finding, usually the opposite everywhere else in the UK 
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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Well its ordered now, so I guess some time next week we find out if the performance characteristics change.
Already shipped and first class.
Edited by Chrysalis (Thu 23-Nov-23 19:13:36)
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Ok sim has been here since early afternoon, I have some data. These are all with phone in 4G mode since we established I dont actually have 5G connectivity.
2.40pm
EE 76 down 64 up
1P 148 down 74 up
3.52pm
EE 48 down 44 up
1P 72 down 65 up
4.32pm
EE 54 down 36 up
1P 92 down 49 up
After 5pm everything changed massively on EE
5.02pm
EE 7.2 down upload failed.
1P 145 down 78 up.
5.14pm
EE 7,9 down 0.78 up
1P 142 down 72 up
5.18 pm
EE 16 down upload failed
1P 144 down 74 up
5.35 pm
EE 11.2 down 0.72 up
1P 114 down 64 up
Pre 5pm EE download speed gradually speeds up during test before it peaks, after 5pm it has an initial spike then flatlines at a very low speed, Pre 5pm upload is fast, after 5pm it either fails or is sub 1mbit. 1p keeps the same pattern, and actually sped up after 5pm, perhaps due to traffic shaping prioritising its traffic on a uncapped tariff?
Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 24-Nov-23 17:47:11)
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Pre 5pm EE download speed gradually speeds up during test before it peaks, after 5pm it has an initial spike then flatlines at a very low speed, Pre 5pm upload is fast, after 5pm it either fails or is sub 1mbit. 1p keeps the same pattern, and actually sped up after 5pm, perhaps due to traffic shaping prioritising its traffic on a uncapped tariff?
Interesting 1p is faster when EE slows down. If you are on essentials it looks to me that as one of the downsides of reduced price is you get reduced speed when the local cell site is heavily loaded. Insane when you can just switch to 1p and a) save money and b) get faster speeds. Worth tweeting that nonsense to @EE and @MarcAllera (the EE/Consumer CEO) as that is just corporate insanity.
Since you have a 5G indicator, it is possible that upgrades are coming soon, and some masts very local to you may have 5G enabled already just not reaching your home.
The upgrades are complex, first the backhaul to the mast has to be radically increased (e.g. 1 or 2Gbps to 10Gbps) and then the antenna panels have to be changed or new ones added, along with the additional radio equipment. These things are expensive.
Your list of frequencies confuses me.
1846mhz - Band 3 - EE - general 20 MHz block on Band 3 used most of the UK
1861mhz - Band 3 - EE - one of the 10 MHz extension blocks on Band 3
2162mhz - Band 1 - Looks like O2's band 1 signal - do you have an O2 SIM as well in the same phone?
2662mhz - Band 7 - EE - one of the 15 MHz blocks
Potentially 45 MHz of spectrum deployed on EE, but that O2 signal is random.
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Edited by jchamier (Fri 24-Nov-23 18:15:14)
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I do plan to report it, but as always its getting past first line support, good idea on tweeting it, speedtest app also saves the graphs now so I can show the traffic pattern as well.
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No O2 sim, I dont think cellmapper is particularly user friendly to use so not keen on diving back into the app again.
I did screenshot it and read from the screenshot, the 2162 is RX frequency and 1972 TX frequency.
MCC MNC TAC all had ? so is it possible it was just reporting a detected band within range but not connected? Its one of the many that appeared when speedtest ran.
Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 24-Nov-23 18:31:34)
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No O2 sim, I dont think cellmapper is particularly user friendly to use so not keen on diving back into the app again. mobile networks are a complete industry of their own. Cellmapper is best when it reports to the web page, crowd sourcing, as the web is easier to use.
I did screenshot it and read from the screenshot, the 2162 is RX frequency and 1972 TX frequency. Confirmed as an O2 signal, if you're not an O2 customer your phone is ignoring.
MCC MNC TAC all had ? so is it possible it was just reporting a detected band within range but not connected? Its one of the many that appeared when speedtest ran.
With ?? I think that means its a signal the phone is receiving but it can't decode the MCC (Mobile country code) or MNC (Mobile Network Code) or TAC (internal deployment region) for the signal as it is not the same network as the SIM in the phone.
MCC in the UK is always 234, the MNC is the next two digits, as follows:
234-10 = O2
234-30 = EE (where 30 was old T-Mobile, and 33 was old Orange)
234-15 = Vodafone
234-20 = Three
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Edited by jchamier (Fri 24-Nov-23 18:48:48)
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Only the first band wasnt ??
The rest all had ? and also only appeared during the speedtest, thats why I reported them as I was asked to report new ones that appeared during the test.
So the only one not as a ? was 1846 RX and 1751 TX. The first one. MCC 234 MNC 30 TAC 25xxx.
Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 24-Nov-23 19:09:16)
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So the only one not as a ? was 1846 RX and 1751 TX. The first one. MCC 234 MNC 30 TAC 25xxx.
1846 / 1751 is the 1800 band, known as Band 3. Pretty much mostly used by EE. 234-30 shows it is EE.
Band list here shows the downlink and uplink ranges:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_frequency_bands
Nothing stopping EE from using Band 3 for 5G NR, other than a lot of customers without 5G ready handsets whom would no longer get a good usable 4G signal.
If you go to cellmapper.net and find your location, you can choose a network and then see the cell sites nearby that have been picked up by other users. Most sites are three sectors, clicking on a site will show you the coverage, but also the frequencies deployed by that network on that site.
Some might say 5G ENDC which means a 5G signal is around in the area. 5G NR coverage can't be plotted in Non-Standalone Architecture mode as the signalling is carried over 4G LTE - finding the actual mast with 5G is a case of either trying to eyeball the actual antenna or testing speeds in areas with 5G logo outdoors!
5G bands are named with n in front, so band n3 would be 5G NR signal on the 1800 band:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G_NR_frequency_bands
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
Edited by jchamier (Fri 24-Nov-23 19:43:09)
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Ok both the two nearest cell sites to me say '5G ENDC Available Yes', nearly all the ones within mile are.
Most cell sites are 1,3,7 with some 1,3,7,20, mine is the only one within 5 miles thats just 3. Mine has only 3 cells listed, the rest are at least 20.
Can I block a cell site from being used so it picks one of the other larger ones further away? I am thinking more cells probably means more backhaul?
Edited by Chrysalis (Fri 24-Nov-23 21:04:24)
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Ok both the two nearest cell sites to me say '5G ENDC Available Yes', nearly all the ones within mile are. Good news means 5G is active somewhere nearby, and is probably why the 5G indicator is lit. It is possible these cells could have 5G added in the next few months too.
Most cell sites are 1,3,7 with some 1,3,7,20, mine is the only one within 5 miles thats just 3. Mine has only 3 cells listed, the rest are at least 20. May be an older infill site that has slower backhaul network connection.
Can I block a cell site from being used so it picks one of the other larger ones further away? I am thinking more cells probably means more backhaul? Not without some very specialist / expensive low level software for Android that needs root and only supports some chipsets. Its very complex...! The free version shows various things, but to do something such as tell the phone to ignore a cell is really against the design of mobile phone networks. I'm pretty sure NSG could do this (it seems to do most things) but a lot of the control stuff is in the paid version. Expensive monthly.
Network Signal Guru
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.qt...
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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Most cell sites are 1,3,7 with some 1,3,7,20, mine is the only one within 5 miles that's just 3. Mine has only 3 cells listed, the rest are at least 20. May be an older infill site that has slower backhaul network connection.
This has been an interesting read, mainly because my area's masts seem to also be Band 3's, I have 3 Band 3 masts directly around me. and then a load of band 20 masts scattered around.
Admittedly most my mast sites are Orange locations and the one that was next to the house was taken down unfortunately, but that was 3G only short range. Now we just struggle with intermittent coverage and 5G which depending which room or side of the house your in could be 10Mbps or 150Mbps.
Sometimes lower, sometimes higher.
Seems most the sites are 5MHz bandwidth with the odd 10.
To be honest they need to add another site as the area is adding / building an additional 10,000+ houses and that certainly won't help with the existing mast site that is covering the whole area currently.
Problem is that all proposals for new masts keep getting declined by locals, I don't know why they are so opposed of flagpole masts, they are barely noticeable
One on BT Exchange with Band 1, and one near high density areas with band 1
Funnily enough around here Vodafone only have band 20 which contrasts to O2 which is primarily Band 40 with the odd Band 1 in those areas and some 3 and 20 in the areas without.
Many Thanks,
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BOOM
Network Signal Guru free version installed.
Selected band 7 and deselected all other bands.
Now on a more distant cell weak signal.
Speedtest on EE at around 9pm 34 down 4.6 up.
Not great but certainly better than my local cell.
Since my cell only has band 3 its easy to force another by forbidding band 3. I suspect if I was local to the other cell tower I would be getting band 3 and 7 bonded for even more speed right?
Added bands 1 and 20 now as well although it didnt speed it up further..
1p matches the EE throughput on this other cell. So weak signal might be keeping it down on this one? I will see later if off peak affects the speed of it.
Network signal guru I think is a lot more user friendly than cellmapper, some info from it on this other mast.
2 sessions, one is 100/100 the other is 60/60.
The 60/60 is ims apn, and 100/100 everywhere apn.
QPSK modulation 15mhz width. Occasionally changing to QAM16 modulation.
Whenever it changes to QAM16 error rate is over 30%, is 0% on QPSK.
Currently connected to band 1 2100mhz 2x2 mode
Final update I did some testing outside, freezing so was brief.
Band 1 went up to around 70mbit down, 7 45mbit, band 20 only a couple of mbit.
My local mast band 3 has no performance difference indoors or outdoors is max signal all the time, and currently is testing about 5-10mbit on EE, and over 100 on 1p.
Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 25-Nov-23 21:27:12)
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currently is testing about 5-10mbit on EE, and over 100 on 1p. That looks like a price plan throttle then. No idea why if 1p can give 100, you'd think it would be load related it would also throttle the cheap MVNO !!
23 years of broadband connectivity since 1999 trial - Live BQM
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Funny enough I was going to post I wonder if its like entanet's old STM its dependent on load on the cell, as I am pretty sure another day it slowed down before 5pm, and one evening it was fine at 9pm. (by fine I mean no weird almost no throughput upstream and at least above 20mbit down).
Also that the EE/1P differential doesnt seem evident or as evident on the other cells.
The 1P package is uncapped. It would be weird if that was slower than EE essentials I think. EE essentials also can be had for cheaper than 1P at least on my retention deal, I have 125 gig for £15. £15 gets you 50 gig on 1P.
But of course what I can do on 1P is pay for like a £5 sim every month, and if I find I need traffic one month, just buy a booster for that month. Harder to do that on EE as their min baseline prices for sim only are much higher.
Edited by Chrysalis (Sun 26-Nov-23 16:09:15)
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