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Standard User zzing123
(learned) Thu 16-Jan-20 02:05:34
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Re: Cat6 vs wifi6


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jchamier:
Plus the problem that the new feature of WiFi 6 is not actually enabled on most of the new routers:
https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-fe...


Yes, but the thread is about Wifi6 vs CAT6.

When you compare wifi standards, we have seen big increases (say from g to n) but the difference between ac Wave 1 and ac Wave 2 (which is MU-MIMO) is almost negligible. OFDMA is pretty much the same thing. Physics-wise it's properly interesting tech, and it goes to the previous argument I laid out, that it's all about spectrum management.

For a quick recap, MIMO is 'Multiple in-Multiple Out', which means that in a specific timeslot (remember each device can only shout at a single time only: think of a field of people holding megaphones), what MIMO does is that someone shouts at a high-pitched voice and someone else shouts at a low-pitched voice and using a DSPs doing FFTs you can get two perfectly distinct 'sounds' from the same noise, and thus deduce a message. The physics of the same noise being made in the same timeslot however, remains the same, but through proper engineering you get multiple clients talking at the same time.

OFDMA is slightly different, in that you spread across different frequencies. So while everyone knows channel 1, 6 and 11 is used in Wifi 2.4GHz (each being 20MHz bands), 5GHz has much more bandwidth, but at those frequencies, channels don't go through walls as easily (this is why 7-800MHz 5G using the old TV bands really matters and why many £billions are spent btw), but generally 5Gz wifi is operating at 20, 40, 80, or 160 MHz channel widths, with most choosing contiguous 40 or 80MHz, and operating at channels 52-64 and 100-128 across the EU (You ain't got contiguous spectrum cos ETSI and Ofcom said so). OFDMA allows you to use non-contiguous channels, meaning an AP can use channel 52, 100, 104 and 128 for example to form 4x20MHz channels and an 80MHz as a whole, giving more performance. Of course any Wifi 5 device or below will only see a 20MHz channel, so meh. It's complex, and involves even more DSP that I can only surmise in a metaphor as a person broadcasting an interleave of 4 different letters of a word at very inaudibly different pitches at the same time and the receiver deciphering it together to form a word at the end of it.

Evenso, there's a commercial argument and a chicken/egg argument. As the SNB article states, OFDMA is about RU's which corresponds to DSP capacity. That means silicon and chip design in laymans terms. Radio chips aren't entirely dissimilar to GPUs in that they're massive arrays of Execution Units each covering and coalescing areas of spectrum as quickly and efficiently as possible. Just like a GPU driver can only do so much to rendering performance, it's the same with this ethereal 'Wifi Firmware'. So why would you build a new chip when you don't have a standard ready? Because muppets will buy it. So current Wifi 6 is pie in the sky for all we know, but at least it's a Proper Engineer's best guess as to what the standard will be, and so long as the chip has enough leeway and the firmware programmers are smart enough, a 'Wave 1' device can be estimated. So basically OFDMA will be 'ax Wave 2' just like MU-MIMO was 'ac Wave 2'. MU-MIMO was always baked into the ac standard, but Wave 1 was the modem maker's best guess of what the standard would be prior to the standard's ratification, while Wave 2 is the full implementation of the standard. Same shenanigans with AX.

Either way, the thread is about Wifi 6 and CAT6. Increases in the science and engineering of managing RF (Radio Frequency) are all well and good, and this is by no means faulting the scientists. This really is Proper Engineering with capital P and E, but there is one constant: the spectrum hasn't changed. So while different Wifi standards will give a measurable, benchmarkable performance uplift that many, many column inches will be written about, pretty much all the low-hanging fruit has been solved already in Wifi 5, and the increases are really about capacity and working the spectrum as hard, fast and efficiently as it can be. At best, you will really only see a modest real-world uplift in ideal performance of Wifi 6 over Wifi 5, and then only if all client devices are shiny new, and in an area with no interference (so not urban) until the TalkTalks of this world decide their 802.11n router is really a pile of *ahem* even for them.

The fact of the matter, is the single best step you can do, to get the most linear benefit (as in +100% for each AP you add up till you cover every last Hz of spectrum reserved for WiFi) is to wire your backhaul and invest in a proper network topology with a good switch and router. Only then, as you swap APs in and out you can harvest the +15% or so every time the IEEE decides to ratify a new standard, but even then, wait until the standard is ratified, and the chipmakers have baked a fresh set of silicon.

In the meantime, Wifi 5, or 802.11ac "Wave 2" devices are the current standard, until this page goes green, and it's still only half-baked: http://ieee802.org/11/Reports/tgax_update.htm
Standard User jabuzzard
(committed) Thu 16-Jan-20 11:02:28
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Re: Cat6 vs wifi6


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
I would suspect that is mostly out of ignorance. Properly done a ceiling WiFi access point should just look like s smoke alarm with no wires visible at all. They are very unobtrusive, I had mine up for over a year and my mother stayed several times before she noticed it. At which point she wanted to know why the access point in her house was not the same. It's on a to do list of things to change now.

I would note living in Scotland from February next year it will be law to have a range of smoke, heat and CO alarms installed in *EVERY* house (yep it's retrospective and applies to every house without exception)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43443725

So one or more unobtrusive WiFi access points is neither hear nor there. I would point out lots of advantages around being out the way of children and pets, not requiring dusting and not taking up any space. That's all before we get into better WiFi. I have personally never met a person who having seen a proper install would throw a wobbly about having one installed.
Standard User jchamier
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 16-Jan-20 14:17:38
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Re: Cat6 vs wifi6


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by jabuzzard:
(yep it's retrospective and applies to every house without exception)

I agree a proper install is very discrete. I'm also glad I don't live in scotland, retrospective legislation is not good.

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Standard User jabuzzard
(committed) Thu 16-Jan-20 16:35:26
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Re: Cat6 vs wifi6


[re: jchamier] [link to this post]
 
Sure but would you actually want to live in a property that didn't have proper fire and CO alarms? Given that the majority of fire deaths occur in homes without working smoke alarms, I sure as hell would not?

I would also add the fire/CO alarm standards required in the rest of the UK outside Scotland are an absolute joke. I mean no requirement for a heat detector in a kitchen, where the majority of domestic fires start for crying out loud.
Standard User ian72
(eat-sleep-adslguide) Thu 16-Jan-20 16:51:40
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Re: Cat6 vs wifi6


[re: jabuzzard] [link to this post]
 
My fire alarms in my old house were a little hit and miss and I could be generally poor at replacing batteries when they were low. That would probably give you palpitations but I suspect is the case in a number of houses around the country.

The house I am currently in has mains powered alarms that are reasonably new so the problem has been solved, for now.
Standard User oldskool
(member) Mon 27-Jan-20 16:46:02
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Re: Cat6 vs wifi6


[re: ian72] [link to this post]
 
Thanks for all the contributions. I'm just waiting for a quote on running cat6 into the ceiling of each floor.

I'm planning on getting 3 of these : TP-Link AC1350 - 1 for each floor of the house
https://www.amazon.co.uk/TP-Link-Gigabit-Controller-...

Does anyone know if the free Omada controller app is all I need to use to configure 3 of these points? I want to make sure if I'm getting the work done there are no surprises when the intention is to get cabled AP's capable of delivering good 5GHz signals to each floor, ideally meshed for good handoff. I may need to adjust the power outputs too.

Hopefully I can do all of this with the app. Let me know if I missed anything.
Thanks
Standard User alexatkin
(member) Mon 27-Jan-20 17:24:31
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Re: Cat6 vs wifi6


[re: oldskool] [link to this post]
 
Wow, that's by far the most ugly ceiling mounted access point I've ever seen.
Standard User oldskool
(member) Mon 27-Jan-20 17:33:26
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Re: Cat6 vs wifi6


[re: alexatkin] [link to this post]
 
I'm not too worried about that

Its this 3 pack I found, the quicker one
https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/37925-tp-lin...

Comes with a cloud controller, even thought I don't actually know what practical advantage it gives me, I'm not fussed about stats.

FTTP is coming in a few months, but until then I will use my rock solid tp-link modem/router with perhaps this switch
https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/products/25611-tp-lin...

Is QOS any good on these switches? I'd like to set one of the ports to high priority for the gaming machine. I won't be getting a router that can do this so wondered about this switch.
Standard User oldskool
(member) Mon 03-Feb-20 21:21:15
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Re: Cat6 vs wifi6


[re: oldskool] [link to this post]
 
If anyone is interested, all the tp-link kit arrived today

3x EAP245, 1 for each floor
Omada controller
Managed switch with POE

All connected up, the Omada controller is glorious to configure and easily manage all points

Mesh works well

Feels stable and coverage is brilliant

All hardwired back to the switch with cat6

Electrician will finish cabled and fixing into the ceiling later in the week


As it turned out, not too difficult to cable it all up
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