OK am, usless aft and evg

Router Name : Diamond
Model Name : Vigor2820Vn
Firmware Version : 3.3.7.3_232201
Build Date/Time : Sep 13 2012 19:09:39
ADSL Firmware Version : 232201_A Hardware: Annex A

Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 448000 7616000 11 22

At the moment a speed test result returns:
Download speed achieved during the test was - 0.61 Mbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 0.6 Mbps-7.15 Mbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :7.62 Mbps(DOWN-STREAM), 0.45 Mbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 6.5 Mbps

TalkTalk CS claim there is nothing amiss with my service despite the fact from around 8am to 1pm I get a respectable 5.57Mbps down and 0.3 up. During the afternoon and into the evening the speed drops down incrementally to generally aroind 0.6Mbps and even as low as 0.01 on some nights. So effectively I am getting a part time service,

All hardware has been swapped out and the test socket used. Hardwired to the desktop. Results remain the same even if another PC is hooked into the network. TalkTalk want £150 to send an engineer out to investigate the issue. Declined and asked for my MAC code which arrived the next day.

Now as of today FTTC was switched on so I could order FTTC from any supplier.

If this was your feed. what would you do? Either place an order for FTTC and put up with the yo-yo speeds until I get FTTC or order some fireworks as part of a plan to get TalkTalk to sort the matter out. Thoughts on a postcard please. [Well replies here really].

i thought the "acceptable range" was 40% of the IP profile? Yours is 11%.

As it is a time of day related speed change this could either be noise on the line only generated at those times somewhere along the copper or oversubscribed backhaul from the exchange to the ISP.

FTTC will eliminate the copper from the cabinet to the exchange, but you will still be using the copper from the house to the cabinet.

Having said that, having an FTTC install will at least mean a BTOR engineer will be in your house and physically doing stuff to your wires for free

I'd go for the FTTC maybe with a different provider so as to change the backhaul.

In your position, I'd go with Myth's suggestion - order FTTC, possibly with a different provider.


TalkTalk are clearly not interested in the original issue. Judging by the wording of your speed test result and the use of G.DMT on a line that looks as if it could manage much more on ADSL2+ (MrSaffron's calculator estimates up to 19.5 Mbit/s downstream at that attenuation), I'm guessing that your current service is over BT Wholesale 20CN. If that's the case, it would be interesting to know what the PlusNet exchange status checker says about 20CN VP capacity. The issue sounds more likely to be backhaul congestion than anything to do with your line, considering the time correlation, low attenuation and healthy noise margin but without error statistics, it's impossible to be sure.

If the only ADSL available is BT Wholesale 20CN and the backhaul VPs are congested, every ADSL ISP will suffer the same issues. Rather than waiting around in the hope of the obsolescent 20CN being upgraded, I'd defect to FTTC which uses an entirely different setup other than the same wires between you and the cabinet. As Myth says, you also have the advantage of an engineer install with FTTC. Especially if you get a BT Openreach engineer rather than a contractor, there's a good chance of any outstanding issues with your line being resolved at the same time.

If you're leaving your current setup behind, I'd just put up with it for the next few weeks - it isn't worth the hassle.


Considering the (lack of) customer service you've received from TalkTalk, this suggests you may want to look elsewhere for an FTTC ISP.

Thanks folks for your thoughts. Here is an update. Out of the blue an OR turned up at my doorstep as I had complained about my broadband. Good of TalkTalk to let me know he was coming Eh?

I explained I wasn't going to lean on TalkTalk as FTTC had arrived and I had ordered FTTC from Zen a couple of days previously with an installation date next Wednesday morning. The ensuing conversation was that from my cabinet, the backhaul was overloaded with the cable diameter of minimum diameter causing considerable crosstalk. He checkout the cable run from my home to the cabinet and said it was first class and with a FTTC service, there was no reason why I shouldn't get 70Mbps rather than the estimated 38Mbps.

Apparently I was being throttled by TalkTalk and was on Fast Path (?) rather the interleaved, with attenuation of 10 instead of 6 so it wasn't surprising that I had poor download speeds. There wasn't much he could do really to improve the situation and as FTTC was only days away he was prepared to get me FTTC ready. So he proceeded to move the master socket to the same room where my computer is and replaced the Master Socket faceplate which has a socket for the modem and one for the phone.

It was an AM visit and by the evening the speed had dropped once again to 58kbps down and 68kbps up. Just for the record FTTC arrives as part of the BDUK rollout and the exchange only has ADSL.

Looking in the router, I see this information this evening after three days of use:
ADSL Information ( ADSL Firmware Version: 232201_A)
ATM Statistics TX Cells RX Cells TX CRC errs RX CRC errs
5557509 3265302 3 0

ADSL Status Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 448000 8128000 10 22

So there we are. I really will be gutted if I get slow speeds with FTTC installed but anything will be better than 58kbps down and 68kbps [I really do mean k and not M]. As for TalkTalk; well they are off my Christmas card list for ever.

He arrived "out of the blue", didn't find a line fault (?), moved the NTE5 and fitted a filtered faceplate - will you be charged for this OR engineer's visit?

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 448000 7616000 11 22

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

...

Apparently I was being throttled by TalkTalk and was on Fast Path (?) rather the interleaved,

...

ADSL Status Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 448000 8128000 10 22

.

the original stats showing DL sync of 7616kbps very much suggests (guarantees?) interleaving was turned on.

The subsequent stat of 8128kbps pretty much suggests (guarantees?) that interleaving was off.

Am not sure what this means, apart from something is very variable on your line which you knew already

In reply to a post by Myth:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 448000 7616000 11 22

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

...

Apparently I was being throttled by TalkTalk and was on Fast Path (?) rather the interleaved,

...

ADSL Status Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 448000 8128000 10 22

.

the original stats showing DL sync of 7616kbps very much suggests (guarantees?) interleaving was turned on.

The subsequent stat of 8128kbps pretty much suggests (guarantees?) that interleaving was off.

Am not sure what this means, apart from something is very variable on your line which you knew already

The engineer reset the line. The engineer's diagnostic meter's screen clearly showed I was throttled and that I was in Fast at 10 whereas interleaved at 6 would have been a better choice. Not doing anything about this as FTTC will be installed on Wednesday.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

He arrived "out of the blue", didn't find a line fault (?), moved the NTE5 and fitted a filtered faceplate - will you be charged for this OR engineer's visit?

Apparently not. Being an unfixable fault due to backhaul congestion and crosstalk issues from the cabinet upstream. The master socket was internally broken due to cack handed original installation and had to be replaced anyway. Speed issues will be resolved with FTTC being installed later in the week. I can live with a lousy service for a couple of days especially as my need for the internet during that time will be minimal. I had ordered a data extension kit for my installation in any case.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

TalkTalk want £150 to send an engineer out to investigate the issue. Declined and asked for my MAC code which arrived the next day.

So hopefully you wont be charged if the peak time throughput slow down had something to do with the line from the cabinet to the exchange (E-side) and there was a faulty NTE5...

In reply to a post by 4M2:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

TalkTalk want £150 to send an engineer out to investigate the issue. Declined and asked for my MAC code which arrived the next day.

So hopefully you wont be charged if the peak time throughput slow down had something to do with the line from the cabinet to the exchange (E-side) and there was a faulty NTE5...

I guess TalkTalk will try it on but as I am on the verge of being a Zen customer my TalkTalk DD has been cancelled, so we have headed off potential issues there. However the engineer's notes said "uplift carried out". What actually does this mean?

The village has an electronic mailing list centring on topics of the day and ADSL/FTTC issues figure highly at the moment. It seems that problems out of cabinet 1 [the last one to be enabled] are not uncommon with a fair number of people reporting a significant drop off of speed from the day that cabinet 1's twin arrived. What caught my eye was that they were all from TalkTalk subscribers!

So while my situation has improved a little for the moment and with FTTC being installed in my home on Wednesday using Zen, then perhaps I have side stepped a troublesome issue.

You are confusing SNR and Interleaving/Fastpath. There is nothing wrong with being on fast path if you have a decent line. TalkTalk by default use 9db SNR I think. BT Wholesale are usually 3 or 6. This has the biggest effect on line sync speed.

I have no idea how the engineer proved you were being throttled. I would have thought they would only be able to see line stats.

In reply to a post by huwwatkins:

You are confusing SNR and Interleaving/Fastpath. There is nothing wrong with being on fast path if you have a decent line. TalkTalk by default use 9db SNR I think. BT Wholesale are usually 3 or 6. This has the biggest effect on line sync speed.

I have no idea how the engineer proved you were being throttled. I would have thought they would only be able to see line stats.

He simply said I would be better off with Interleaving and 6db instead of Fast and 10db. But not being an expert on these matters, accepted what he said including comments on throttling. My only regret was not taking picture[s] of the diagnostic reports on has very complex and bulky testing equipment. My view was that he was a very competent and knowledgeable engineer on all things relating to the internet. He was a OR employee and said he spent most of his time sorting out problems that contractors created.

Line speeds suggest that if this is a TalkTalk connection it is on IPStream Connect service and that is well known for having poor peak time throughput issues

If there is not LLU presence from talktalk at the exchange where the fibre will terminate I would be very surprised if they even let you order FTTC.

In reply to a post by huwwatkins:

You are confusing SNR and Interleaving/Fastpath. There is nothing wrong with being on fast path if you have a decent line. TalkTalk by default use 9db SNR I think. BT Wholesale are usually 3 or 6. This has the biggest effect on line sync speed.

I have no idea how the engineer proved you were being throttled. I would have thought they would only be able to see line stats.

Maybe wrong, but I have always been of opinion OR could bypass ISP connection.

If Openreach bypass the provider, then there is an ADSL connection. Openreach does not own any ADSL based hardware.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Line speeds suggest that if this is a TalkTalk connection it is on IPStream Connect service and that is well known for having poor peak time throughput issues

If there is not LLU presence from talktalk at the exchange where the fibre will terminate I would be very surprised if they even let you order FTTC.

The exchange is Elstead, Surrey. Sam Says there is no LLU presence but the information on that site is not always accurate. The Village Electronic Newsletter has reported that FTTC orders have been accepted by TalkTalk and Sky. Zen were quite happy to take my order as well. Only on Wednesday will we know of any technical issues that prevent the installation from proceeding.

The comments about the Talktalk service not being LLU based was based on the upstream speed for the connection.

TalkTalk LLU free runs the upstream so should see a connection speed above 448 Kbps, and also has used ADSL2+ since 2006.

So lots of signs indicate that there is no LLU presence from TalkTalk.

On the fibre, Zen don't care if the exchange has LLU. Does Sky have a LLU presence on the exchange, as if they don't then suggests a change of policy, as they've previously only done FTTC on lines where they could also unbundle the telephone. Less certain of the TalkTalk policy on this.

Looking at speedtests so far only ADSL type showing up and at speeds suggesting no LLU at all

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

I guess TalkTalk will try it on but as I am on the verge of being a Zen customer my TalkTalk DD has been cancelled, so we have headed off potential issues there. However the engineer's notes said "uplift carried out". What actually does this mean?

So while my situation has improved a little for the moment and with FTTC being installed in my home on Wednesday using Zen, then perhaps I have side stepped a troublesome issue.

Sorry I don't know what "uplift carried out" means but if your line to the cabinet and your home wiring is now in good shape then FTTC from Zen should prove to be excellent

What does BT BROADBAND AVAILABILITY CHECKER say for your phone #?

@ MrSaffron: Above will be definative for FTTC. While OP's exchange has no LLU, WBC nor FTTC, it is possible that his cab diverts to another FTTC'ed exchange.

I think you mean to say:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If there is not LLU presence from talktalk at the exchange where the fibre copper will terminate I would be very surprised if they even let you order FTTC.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

What does BT BROADBAND AVAILABILITY CHECKER say for your phone #?

@ MrSaffron: Above will be definative for FTTC. While OP's exchange has no LLU, WBC nor FTTC, it is possible that his cab diverts to another FTTC'ed exchange.

If Zen accepted the order for FTTC after doing the phone number check etc. then there should be no problem? MAC key was provided by TT, broadband was IP Stream and line rental WLR...

No harm in checking that there's no screw-up?

Both sort of apply.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

No harm in checking that there's no screw-up?

Sure

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Both sort of apply.

In other words, you expect TalkTalk to allow fibre orders only where they have presence at the exchange to provide POTS using TalkTalk equipment over MPF, and presence at the GEA-FTTx handover node (which may be at a neighbouring exchange) for fibre backhaul?

I was going by your statement here: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/4270487-r... w.r.t. Sky not having LLU at exchange where PTSN (copper) goes.

You think TT is diff from Sky in this respect?

Yes

There have been a few cases like this in Cornwall.

Of course over time TalkTalk and Sky may change their position and be happy to just use WLR for the phone and take the cost hit (its not massive but on their level of margins it is significant)

I see no reason to say with certainty that because TalkTalk say they will accept WLR voice with GEA-FTTC that Sky will.

Its not a technical issue, but a product/price choice that is individual to each provider.

So at the moment the only way one can be certain that line rental remains WLR, when taken as part of a FTTC and line rental package, is if the ISP offers fibre broadband only without line rental as an option? Exceptions at this time being BT Retail; additionally Plusnet and Zen who do offer both BB only and a BB + line rental package that is WLR...

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Zen who do offer both BB only and a BB + line rental package that is WLR...

Zen line rental is always WLR3 at the moment, but this could change.


Zen's Phil Long has indicated Zen may start providing ADSL2+ at exchanges where Zen has presence from the Zen MSAN. This will be SMPF unless Zen also start offering POTS from the Zen MSAN (a possibility, though not one I'm aware Zen has commented on).

Zen FTTx customers at Zen served exchanges were switched from BT Wholesale WBMC to Zen backhaul en masse. I have no problem with this - those customers are likely to receive a better quality service than over BT Wholesale WBMC, and there's no contractual commitment by Zen to continue delivering services in the same way.

It is certainly conceivable that one reason behind Zen's decision to market their new fibre broadband products primarily as fibre and phone bundles is because they intend to start providing POTS over MPF from their own MSANs in the future. If they have customers on packages suitable to be switched over to Zen MPF POTS, it provides the commercial justification to launch such a service.

Zen already provide VoIP services, so with MSANs in the exchanges backed by an MPLS network, they're not missing many of the elements needed to offer POTS and Fibre Voice Access (on FTTH) services.


As Zen seem determined to keep offering 'broadband only' products, you will always be able to avoid MPF by selecting a non-Zen WLR3 provider and taking Zen's broadband only service.

Actually I just asked RichieatZen, in your other thread http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/f/4271415-zen-u... , whether Zen line rental can be paid separately to Zen FTTC and thus ensure that the line rental remains WLR on a 30 day minimum term. Obviously BB would have to be on a 12 months minimum term, also he now confirms that there is no activation charge for "Unlimited Fibre 2" broadband only

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Actually I just asked RichieatZen, in your other thread http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/f/4271415-zen-u... , whether Zen line rental can be paid separately to Zen FTTC and thus ensure that the line rental remains WLR on a 30 day minimum term.

I noticed that, and thought it was a very sensible question.

It is possible that Zen will say that it's a condition of taking Zen broadband and Zen line rental on the same line that you take them as a bundle. If they don't, and you go for 'broadband only' plus out-of-bundle voice service, I suggest you make it a term of the contract and have suitable notes put on your account that the line rental must remain on WLR and you will not be switched to any future Zen MPF voice service.

I trust Zen and believe in their products. It's just that I would hate you to think you were with them on one basis, potentially paying a supplement for doing so (your proposal is cheaper than Zen FTTC and BT Retail line rental, but more expensive than Zen's FTTC and line rental bundle), then be caught up in a future mass migration to MPF that was based on you taking both services from Zen on the same line.

Guess we will have to wait for an answer from Zen

But if line rental and FTTC could be treated as two separate items on one's Zen account then any potential future change to a FTTC and line rental package would involve the 30 days minimum term on line rental being changed to a 12 months minimum term and that would perhaps have to be a new contract agreed by both parties?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Guess we will have to wait for an answer from Zen

But if line rental and FTTC could be treated as two separate items on one's Zen account then any potential future change to a FTTC and line rental package would involve the 30 days minimum term on line rental being changed to a 12 months minimum term and that would perhaps have to be a new contract agreed by both parties?

If Zen decide to change the underlying means of delivering your services, they wouldn't be able to change the contract terms unilaterally, though there are certain circumstances where the terms of your contract might allow new terms to be imposed when accompanied by a right of termination if the changes are to your detriment.

The contract between you and Zen may well not prohibit Zen from changing you to MPF where that is technically feasible (i.e. lines where there is no broadband or where there is Zen broadband). If, in the future, Zen launched an MPF phone service and chose to migrate you from WLR3 to MPF, you would be bound to your contractual minimum term and Zen would take the risk that their choice to migrate you could expose them to BT Openreach early termination fees for MPF.


My post was really just a 'heads up' that Zen may go down the MPF route in exchanges where they have presence, and it's best to bear that in mind if you wish to purchase phone and broadband separately from Zen with the intention of staying on WLR3.

As you say - over to Zen for the definitive answer, if there is one bearing in mind I'm hypothesising about potential future services.

Yep, if no definitive answer then it would be no problem to switch line rental to another WLR landline provider, e.g. IDNET http://idnetnew.idnet.net/solutions/home/phone/ on a 30 day minimum term for a similar "line only" deal also at £11.22, prior to taking Zen FTTC

That's one way to side-step the potential problem.

Or just go to Plusnet for fibre broadband only with an activation fee of £50, preferably if one's in a "low cost area" LOL!

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

In reply to a post by Myth:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 448000 7616000 11 22

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

...

Apparently I was being throttled by TalkTalk and was on Fast Path (?) rather the interleaved,

...

ADSL Status Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 448000 8128000 10 22

.

the original stats showing DL sync of 7616kbps very much suggests (guarantees?) interleaving was turned on.

The subsequent stat of 8128kbps pretty much suggests (guarantees?) that interleaving was off.

Am not sure what this means, apart from something is very variable on your line which you knew already

The engineer reset the line. The engineer's diagnostic meter's screen clearly showed I was throttled and that I was in Fast at 10 whereas interleaved at 6 would have been a better choice. Not doing anything about this as FTTC will be installed on Wednesday.

your first post stated 7616kbps @ 11dB

This was before the OR engineer visited. 7616 is interleaved.

After the engineer had reset your line you had 8128kbps @10dB. This is Fastpath.

The SNR doesn't really matter as you had maximum line speed before you reached the SNR threshold. The only thing throttling you was the equipment in the exchange only being ADSLMax equipment. Unless the OR engineer was inferring you were being throttled within TT network based on your speedtest results.

What does BT BROADBAND AVAILABILITY CHECKER say for your phone #?

(asked previously of wrong person)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

What does BT BROADBAND AVAILABILITY CHECKER say for your phone #?

(asked previously of wrong person)

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14 Hours to go before Zen FTTC arrives and then I should be able to use iPlayer!

My original posting seems to have spawned quite a discussion that I thought you might like an update. Some basic facts are that my exchange is Elstead in Surrey and through the BDUK scheme, FTTC went live from my cabinet on 2nd October. Previously only ADSL was available however for the last few months, peak time speeds nosedived to unacceptable levels. The ISP was TalkTalk who reluctantly organised an engineer to visit my home to improve my speed. It didn't.

CS from TalkTalk seems to be designed around the lowest common denominator and certainly not for anyone with an IQ greater than 10 and when they do mess up big time, fail to apologise and their over obsession with compliance with the Data Protection Act drives me nuts. So time to jump ship.

For better or worse, decided to run with Zen with these products:
Unlimited Zen Fibre 2 - Monthly charge: £30
Line Rental Plus - Monthly service charge: £22.06 [Gives 5000 minutes 24/7]
Zen VoIP - Monthly charge: £5.10 [Gives 1000 minutes 24/7]

Yes, a lot to pay each month in switching where previously I pad BT line rental of £15.45 plus TalkTalk's bill of around £33, so equivalently around £5 more. To close that gap down I will probably ditch Zen's landline call package in favour of the free minutes in Zen VoIP. Oddly that doesn't include 0845 numbers unlike their landline call package.

My current FFTC speed is shown here: http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/button/13813...
My service is described as:
Current maximum download speed: 76616Kbps
Current Line technology: WBMC

Never changed ISPs before and its certainly not something for the fainthearted to do especially with the knock on effect of reconfiguring the email client with different SMTP details suitable for use with my own domain name. Then there is the minefield of ceasing the call package with TalkTalk over a BT Line.

So there we are, I have migrated away from a lousy service to something a lot better and certainly a different world away from my first internet connection in 1999 using dial up facilities to Freeserve - now that really did cost an arm and a leg crashing through the £100 barrier month after month PLUS call charges.

No problems with the connection between the master NTE5 and the cabinets now then? Certainly better than the estimated 38Mbps

In reply to a post by 4M2:

No problems with the connection between the master NTE5 and the cabinets now then? Certainly better than the estimated 38Mbps

Doesn't seem so although odd I only get 8Mbps up.

Here is a test as of now: http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/button/13814...

Obviously on an 80/20 package, but we have seen cases where the upstream was capped at 10 Mbps. Give the DLM a few days to settle and then pester Zen, mentioning that others with a variety of providers have seen this, and it needs Openreach to check the line port configuration.

Don't fiddle a lot with the wiring in the first day or so, as DLM is at its most sensitive then.

If using XP I would suggest a quick check that your RWIN is a suitable size on the PC for UK type latency. Or if the tests are over WiFi (another reason for that sort of shape) double check on Ethernet.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Obviously on an 80/20 package, but we have seen cases where the upstream was capped at 10 Mbps. Give the DLM a few days to settle and then pester Zen, mentioning that others with a variety of providers have seen this, and it needs Openreach to check the line port configuration.

Don't fiddle a lot with the wiring in the first day or so, as DLM is at its most sensitive then.

If using XP I would suggest a quick check that your RWIN is a suitable size on the PC for UK type latency. Or if the tests are over WiFi (another reason for that sort of shape) double check on Ethernet.

Modem and router has remained on since installation.
No changes to the physical wiring since installation.
Using Windows7 Pro patched with today's offerings from MS
Desktop PC hardwired to 1Gb port on Draytek 3820Vn

Openreach modem description: NGA ECI-CPE-MODEMS TYPE 1B
ECI Model: B-Focus V-2FUb/r Rev.B
Manufactured: 08/2013