Internet Drop Outs

Please can someone help with my internet disconnections I am losing patience with BT and my ISP. Currently on average I have approximately 30 disconnections daily ranging from stable periods for a few hours and then a burst of disconnects to lots of disconnections all day long.

I have spoken to my ISP (Be Unlimited) and carried out all their tests, checks and changes. I have had equipment replaced at the exchange by BT and my ISP, I have changed all filters on the line, had a test socket installed, changed modem, the line has been monitored for 24 hours, quiet line tests carried out, I have been put on the most stable profile etc. etc. You name I have done it including 3 BT engineers called to my flat, 2 broadband specialists and 1 phone engineer. Even when plugged directly into the test socket the same issues occurs.

This has been ongoing for 18 months and I get passed back and forward between BT and my ISP each blaming the other for the fault. The latest development during a 24 hour test carried out by Be is that there is noise on the line but when BT check it the line tests clear. I have asked Be to provide me details of the noise but it is their policy not to disclose this so when I go to BT all I can say is that there is noise on the line and they check it again and the result is clear.

The strange thing is 2 years ago I lived in the same block of flats 2 floors below and the internet connection there on the same set up was perfectly fine. Since then the flat I live in now was built on top of the existing block but the wiring was already in place when the original buliding was erected.

As a last resort I am trying to get the old phone line ripped out and a new one installed although BT has told me they don'd do this and that I should speak to Open Reach, who have told me BT do this, who have told me Open reach do it and it goes on and on.

Open Reach, BT and Be unlimited have passesd me round and round blaming one another. All i need is for someone to tell me how to fix it. Is this electrical interference? If so how can I easily detect what causes the issue?


Stats below (when the connection is up)

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 0:35:59

DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,001 / 8,857

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 11.5 / 24.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 15.5 / 15.5

Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 60 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 9 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): 0

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 28 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 4,566

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 2

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 3,334 / 2

When the connection drops the braodband and the internet lights go out.

In the last 24 hours I have had 36 disconnections.

Any help is much appreciated.

Error Seconds are occurring with low regularity (0.01/sec).

Expected download speed at your current sync rate: 942.23 KB per second (or 7538 kbit)

Expected upload speed at your current sync rate: 106.49 KB per second (or 852 kbit)

Problem: Downstream sync speed of 8857 kbit is 6851 kbit slower or 56 percent of the average for connections with the same downstream attenuation of 24dB.

Problem: High frequency of HEC Up errors (1.54/sec).

Problem: Resubmit statistics in at least 4.4 hours. Ideally more time is needed to say whether any errors were just one-off occurrences.

Problem: Signal Noise Margin Down (15.5dB) is extremely high. Be* may have put you on this profile to compensate for a high error rate. If you know that your line is actually reliable, lowering the value to the average of 6dB should give a sync speed increase. Call Be* to change it (3dB steps only).

Problem: Signal Noise Margin Up (15.5dB) is higher than average and may be this high in order to compensate for current/previous high error rates.

Problem: Your upstream sync speed of 1001 kbit is 81% of the average of 1239 kbit for connections with the same upstream attenuation of 11.5dB.

Problem: Zillions (60) of Loss of Framing errors, which should ideally never or rarely occur. There must be (or have briefly been) a problem with your line.

Hi,

Thanks for the response. I have looked at my connections stats again and they are below. These were taken just after another drop of connection.

I am not too sure on your comments as I am not the most technologically savy person, however Be* have moved me from an ADSL2 line to an ADSL line and have changed my profile to the most stable. This could explain some of your comments.

Do you recommend I ask Be* to decrease the signal noise margin by 3db increments? Could you explain what the framing errors are? I have had 3 BT engineers that say the line from my property to the exchange is absolutely fine.

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 0:00:16

DSL Type: G.992.1 annex A

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,246 / 8,133

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.5

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.0 / 22.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 12.0

Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 264 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 51 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): 0

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 3 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0

Just disconnected again stats on the router show:


DSL Connection

Link Information

Link Status: Disconnected

DSL Type: G.992.1 annex A

I would guess that something is causing a lot of noise on your line, and this is causing you to disconnect. One way to diagnose this is to install Routerstats lite and see the graph of Noise margin over a 48-hour period. If this is what's happening, you can get some idea of what may be causing it based on the time and regularity.

Do you knw if this is Mac compatible?? Be* say line noise is the issue too but BT say this is not the case

Oh sorry, I know nothing about Macs but I guess not. BT are talking about noise on the phone that affects voice calls. BE are talking about radio frequency interference that affects ADSL. You can't hear RFI.

In reply to a post by mccaffj:

Do you knw if this is Mac compatible?? Be* say line noise is the issue too but BT say this is not the case

BT will tell you anything to avoid spending money. ADSL2+ doesn't work well on a noisy line. Doesn't Be allow you to alter your own SNR margins ? That was my understanding.

It looks as if some kind of regular external interference is impinging on your line and killing your connection. This could be due to almost any kind of electrical equipment. As another poster suggested, setup and run routerstats for a while to see if you can see a pattern developing as to when ti happens which may allow you to pinpoint the cause. If you are lucky you may be able to do something about the cause. However, this could be happening almost anywhere between you and the exchange and may be near to impossible to pinpoint without specialist help from BT, if then in some cases. Unfortunately, ADSL2+ is far more sensitive to such noise bursts than ADSL1 is.

BE have moved me to ADSL from ADSL2 and also increased the noise margins. I had the same set up 2 floors below my current flat previously (Be on a BT line) and had no issues at all, the 3 BT engineers including the ADSL engineer state there is no problem on my current line even though they have seen my Connection drop.

The last 2 days have seen my connection deteriorate to droping reconnecting and then dropping again. I can't believe no one will take ownership of this problem and no one can fix it. I have previously chnaged ISP to Virgin as well and had the same issue, but switched back to Be due to rubbish customer service from Virgin.

Will ripping the line out and installing a new one sort this out? How can I detect electrical/radio interference? I am waiting to borrow a Windows pc so i can run router stats.

In reply to a post by mccaffj:

I have previously chnaged ISP to Virgin as well and had the same issue, but switched back to Be due to rubbish customer service from Virgin.

That indicates the problem is not in the exchange. Hopefully in your property.

How can I detect electrical/radio interference?

MW radio tuned around 600kHz should do it.

In reply to a post by mccaffj:

Do you knw if this is Mac compatible?? Be* say line noise is the issue too but BT say this is not the case

Strange you should ask that question as I have just downloaded Router Stats Lite onto my Mac (OS Snow Leopard) It has been running successfully now for 30 mins so will report back tomorrow.

However if you google 'Crossover for Macs' you can download a program that allows windows based programs to operate on Macs. They allow a 30 day trial. I did download the trial version but the Router Stats Lite program installed itself without the need for the link so cannot say whether the Crossover program works or not. I was told about Crossover at the Apple store yesterday.

The reason I wanted Lite on my Mac is so that I can monitor a backup router wirelessly (PC which has Lite installed is hard wired) while I use it in the test socket at the weekend to see whether I can eliminate the possibility of noise interference from within the house. Personally I think it is between me and the exchange but together with Zen we are trying to eliminate things. So disconnecting my DG834G upstairs in my office and tring the DG834GT in the BT test socket. Doing it at the weekend so that not having telephone extensions is less inconvenient.

Hope that helps.

Just a short update to say that Router Stats Lite has been operating since last night on my Mac.

I thought it installed without using the Crossover program I mentioned but in fact having already installed Crossover it loaded automatically through Crossover. So well pleased with that.

An update on the noise issue - Zen have noticed a spike in noise levels between 30 mins and 45 mins past the hour though it wasn't showing on my stats. I am going to change routers on Sunday and also hook up a MW radio to see if I can locate anything inside the house that might be causing interference. Firstly with the router plugged in the usual location and then later in the test socket to see if there is any difference.

I will report back on progress or otherwise.

hey all,

I have a windows pc on loan please see router stats details below. Do these sound odd, any explanations off the back of these? Also how do i put the graphs up on this forum for you guys to see?

My noise level ranges from downstream 6db down to 0 when the connection drops then it spikes at 13.5db and then drops again. After reconnection after a drop the noise margin is 13.5db. The connection is currently dropping on average twice every 5 minutes.

Upstream is stable at 7db except when it drops to 0 for a disconnection.

connection speed is between 7 and 8 kbps except when the drop reduces it to 0. These are stats when pugged direct into the test socket in my flat.

Well, that's what I would have expected - noise on the line causing drops. To host an image you have to put it on a site somewhere and post a link to it here. A popular site to host images is http://imageshack.us/

It's not odd because lots of people have these sort of problems. For example http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/3781161-r...

ok i have another BT engineer out today. The 4th one and I am going to get him to look at these stats. i had a long period last night of about an hour and a half of connection so I cannot see a pattern emerging. Today as soon as started to hit the internet, it dropped. My router stats closed last night so I lost the graphs, i am running it again and will post an image later.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

It's not odd because lots of people have these sort of problems. For example http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/t/3781161-r...

Oi!

I nearly thought it was fixed yesterday after BT had been out but had a couple of spikes overnight....alot less than normal.

Edited by deleted (Sat 16-Jan-10 09:44:22)

another BT classic. Engineer scheduled to show up didnt bother to and then the cable outside my building broke. BT didnt bother to call back and tell me why the technician didn't come out after I chased so I called again to be told that the issue was fixed and that the ticket was closed. Classic... where do they find these muppets.

After BT fixed the external cable my connection speed has jumped to 14 megs or whatever it is called and my noise margin dropped from 15 db to 5. I used to have a 8 meg connection and I was told this was the fastest I could get? Totally confused now. Drop outs still persist though and BT want to send an engineer on Monday when i told them I wanted a weekend engineer so I didnt have to take time off work.

spoke to a neighbour today as well who says they have drop out issues too! they live on the second floor. it seems everyone above the 1st floor has an issue!

sorry for all the complaining but i am going nuts and the terrible BT customer service is doing little to help all they seem to do is read from a list of possible solutions and then dont care.

Anyone out there a BT engineer who would like to comment/help??

In reply to a post by mccaffj:

another BT classic. Engineer scheduled to show up didnt bother to and then the cable outside my building broke. BT didnt bother to call back and tell me why the technician didn't come out after I chased so I called again to be told that the issue was fixed and that the ticket was closed. Classic... where do they find these muppets.

After BT fixed the external cable my connection speed has jumped to 14 megs or whatever it is called and my noise margin dropped from 15 db to 5. I used to have a 8 meg connection and I was told this was the fastest I could get? Totally confused now. Drop outs still persist though and BT want to send an engineer on Monday when i told them I wanted a weekend engineer so I didnt have to take time off work.

spoke to a neighbour today as well who says they have drop out issues too! they live on the second floor. it seems everyone above the 1st floor has an issue!

sorry for all the complaining but i am going nuts and the terrible BT customer service is doing little to help all they seem to do is read from a list of possible solutions and then dont care.

Anyone out there a BT engineer who would like to comment/help??

What a shambles they are!

Do you have any router stats you can share? Have you tried loading the Routers Stats or Router Stats Lite programs to record what is going on with the line?

I dropped sync speed last night when the usual router could no longer maintain the connection with the noise levels. Swapped to my back-up this morning a Netgear DG834GT (broadcom chipset) and it is recording a much more stable line but sadly at a lower sync rate and just below that necessary to get back to a 5000 profile. I waited until almost 9am too.

So now await the call and detective work with Zen in the morning. Will keep folks posted on progress.

Router Stats (full version) also works on my Mac using the Crossover program so I recommend it to people.

In reply to a post by mccaffj:

I used to have a 8 meg connection and I was told this was the fastest I could get?

I don't know who told you that, but the only way to tell is from your attenuation. Any other figure is a guess.

Uptime: 0 days, 0:08:02
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,321 / 15,324
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB] 27.81 / 459.44
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 13.0 / 25.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 4.0 / 3.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 334 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 373 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 558 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 35,149
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 23
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 36,176 / 20

So there you go - almost double what you were told

In reply to a post by mccaffj:

spoke to a neighbour today as well who says they have drop out issues too! they live on the second floor. it seems everyone above the 1st floor has an issue!

Then perhaps the source of the noise problem is on the ground or first floor.

In reply to a post by jcym:

In reply to a post by mccaffj:

spoke to a neighbour today as well who says they have drop out issues too! they live on the second floor. it seems everyone above the 1st floor has an issue!

Then perhaps the source of the noise problem is on the ground or first floor.

I would have thought the opposite.

Vey possibly, for without thinking I just assumed that, like my block, the line enters on the ground floor.

ok bt have done some work at the exchange and my connection hasn't dropped for a while now. Probably jinxed myself there. I was told you get compensated for a BT engineer not turning up is that true? Sounds fair as if I wasn't in they were gonna charge me £125+VAT.

If they did some work in the exchange and this meant they didn't need to come to your premises then they *did* turn up to fix your line.

In reply to a post by JonRennie:

If they did some work in the exchange and this meant they didn't need to come to your premises then they *did* turn up to fix your line.

That really depends on what BT said when the appointment was made. If BT said that they would require access to the OP's premises, then someone from BT should have contacted him around the time of the appointment, telling him what they were going to be doing. I can't really see how anyone can claim to fix anything without testing it, and you can't do that from the exchange.

Edited by deleted (Tue 19-Jan-10 08:40:46)

yeah the fact they havent actually fixed anything doesnt help, line still drops and some calls me everyday to says its fixed. Seriously retarded people out there.

please please some help now on the verge of going back to smoke signals to communicate. BT have broken my phone line, fixed it and then knocked out something in the junction box that again broke my phone line and connection. The connection is getting worse and worse, 30 drop outs an hour. It used to be 30 a day.

Why can no one fix this???? Loading a web page is painful. When they fix the phone line as well it seems to reset my adsl profile to a max speed not stability setting that kills the connection even worse.

Looking at my router stats for the last 24 hours the line was fine between 7am and 7:40pm when I was at work. I have come home and it drops like mad. But I cannot see what makes the line drop, tries turning off the TV the lights, washing machine etc but to no avail. Could it be someone else's router causing interference?

Post your line stats again from your router.

Did you get Routerstats running?

Hi,

I got router stats running but could not see a pattern in the drop outs. The issue being there are so many. In a 1 hour period I had 30. Yet another BT engineer came round yesterday and told me there were no issues on my line but the problem is getting worse. After he lefy I have barely been able to connect. Currently the connection drops every 20 seconds or so.

Router Stats showed a long period from 7 am to 7pm when there was approx 1 disconnection, but as soon as I get home and use the internet the drop outs increase? Any suggestions? To me that looks like the line can't handle broadband.

Below are the router stats again:

Link Information
Uptime: 0 days, 0:11:50
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,161 / 11,748
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 10.0 / 22.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 10.0 / 9.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 2 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 3 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 7 / 2,525
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 7 / 144
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 119,863 / 143


Should I just give up? BT have managed to mess up the connection at my junction box too knocking the wire out another engineer was sent to fix this. The engineer yesterday also said that my connection was loose when he looked at it yesterday, this is after an engineer put it right after it was knocked out. BT are also replacing the "main cable" into my property when some roadworks are carried out in 2 weeks, but I don't think this will fix the issue.

Another strange thing is that BT say the fastest line speed I can support is 8 meg, currently I can get 16 meg though? Although I currently get 10 as I have been put on the most stable connection by my ISP.

Should I chnage the router and filters again?

In reply to a post by mccaffj:

Router Stats showed a long period from 7 am to 7pm when there was approx 1 disconnection, but as soon as I get home and use the internet the drop outs increase? Any suggestions? To me that looks like the line can't handle broadband.

Sounds like something you're doing is causing noise on the line.

What do you turn on immediately prior to trying to use the internet? Could be a faulty power brick causing noise interference. A bit of detective work required - I agree that all the BT loose connections won't have helped stabilise the line but it seems more aligned to your computer use if it suddenly drops when you start to use.

How do I get BT to acknowledge that, I have said that to them and my ISP says that too? When they send engineers they test the line for voice communication only and say its fine. I am seriously at the end of the line now.

i know exactly how you feel im suffering a similar prob, but in my case no bt engineer visits, as ukonline , would sooner switch me to interleave and half my data rate, which is unacceptable to me as i use my connection for online gaming and the server is located in Canada, good old ubisoft,lol
at least bethere got bt to visit your home(sfi) which to date is more than my isp has done, even though they didn't find the fault, makes you wanna go and rip up the got dam line don't it, its sucks

BE's responsibility runs from BE HQ to the exchange. BT's responsibility runs from the exchange to your master socket. From there on in, it's down to you.

If you can't handle diagnosing it, you really have to get BE to get BT to do it for you, but you may have to pay BT £100++ if they decide it's your fault.

Be have sent three engineers and BT 2. No luck. As the phone line handles voice calls BT don't care. I am stuck between the 2. I am now considering switch the internet to BT but they have no cancellation policy and their speeds are rubish and they are expensive too.

I don't know what you mean - what BE engineers?