Who is responsible for sorting out REIN issues ?

Hi all, my line has been suffering from random sustained interference for months, I see sadly I cannot post snr plots here but a typical incident drops the snr by 5dB initially quite slowly, recovers 1dB after a few minutes then remains low for a further 10-30 minutes. My ISP is Plusnet and until I managed to get someone to disable the DLM this was causing total havoc.
The interference is clear on the radio, loud buzzing noise from 540-720Khz. All frequencies in my router above 730Khz have been knocked out. I am on a long rural line about 4.5Kms.
Often this happens around lunchtimes but not everyday.
Plusnets response to any report is "you have more than 1Mbps, don't complain"!!
Personally I have long suspected part of my problem is an old bell wire style drop cable that runs alongside the power cables for some distance, I also suffer a 1dB drop everytime it rains.
Quiet line test has only fairly faint mains hum.
Here is a link to an example snr plot from today

Router is Tplink W8960n, all comments welcome

Edited by fourtytwo (Sun 21-Aug-16 20:52:04)

In reply to a post by fourtytwo:

Personally I have long suspected part of my problem is an old bell wire style drop cable that runs alongside the power cables for some distance,

That's not good. From where to where?

The drop cable starts across the road at the pole and comes high on my gable (to avoid tractors) power cable comes from pole my side of the road to same gable. Both sets of cables then run together along the joint of soffet and facia boards down the gable and along the guttering for about 3 meters before the old phone wire goes into the attic to a joint box where it becomes CW1308 I believe, there's a lot of excess old bellwire coiled up in the attic, I believe it used to continue along the gutter and down to the front door/hall but it's been moved at some point as there is still white paint all over it.

My neighbors were lucky enough to get there dropwires replaced a few years back when they changed a power pole that also supported there drop wires but I am still on the old stuff.

You need those two cables separated for sure.
The mains cable should not be anywhere near the data cable otherwise the EMI from the mains will mess up any signals that pick it up.
I don`t know who to contact , but if your neighbors have had the dropwires replaced they might be able to give you a few pointers.?
Short of shielding the cables in lead the interference will not go away, but if they were using different routes and not near each other the interference would be a lot less imho.
That old bell wire style drop cable is not good , that also needs replacing with a better up to date cable.
Just looked at the graph and that SNR drop is mains hum as the shape is the same as that given by a meter to test AC or DC mains interference.

Edited by deleted (Sun 21-Aug-16 21:30:01)

Interesting then (from your closing remark) that it occurs regularly at around the same time. That should be traceable. Who in the vicinity turns what on, where?

In reply to a post by ironman12345:

You need those two cables separated for sure.
The mains cable should not be anywhere near the data cable otherwise the EMI from the mains will mess up any signals that pick it up.
I don`t know who to contact , but if your neighbors have had the dropwires replaced they might be able to give you a few pointers.?
Short of shielding the cables in lead the interference will not go away, but if they were using different routes and not near each other the interference would be a lot less imho.
That old bell wire style drop cable is not good , that also needs replacing with a better up to date cable.
Just looked at the graph and that SNR drop is mains hum as the shape is the same as that given by a meter to test AC or DC mains interference.

And who pays for the extra poles to be installed?


I monitor and manage connections for a friend and they have shared poles with three phase power and numerous 'phone line running for around about 1 mile. Is there a problem? NO.


And why would EMI from a mains cable at 50 Hz, and even allowing for 101st harmonics cause problems with VDSL? They are in totally different frequency ranges.

In reply to a post by MHC:

I monitor and manage connections for a friend and they have shared poles with three phase power and numerous 'phone line running for around about 1 mile. Is there a problem? NO.


And why would EMI from a mains cable at 50 Hz, and even allowing for 101st harmonics cause problems with VDSL? They are in totally different frequency ranges.

It has nothing to do with harmonics of 50Hz. Mains picks up all sorts of noise sources including for instance motors with poor suppression and badly filtered switch mode power supplies, spikes from switching appliances. The mains supply is intrinsically noisy. However it would be useful to trace the source of the noise as it may be easier to cure it at source rather than just reducing its coupling to the phone line. BT/Openreach have people who handle REIN cases but trying to contact them is the main problem.

To clarify, are the QLTs during those periods of poor performance?

Is it any/every day of the week; or is it clearly not happening on, say, Saturday and/or Sunday?

Edited by deleted (Mon 22-Aug-16 07:36:40)

In reply to a post by ironman12345:

You need those two cables separated for sure.
The mains cable should not be anywhere near the data cable otherwise the EMI from the mains will mess up any signals that pick it up.
I don`t know who to contact , but if your neighbors have had the dropwires replaced they might be able to give you a few pointers.?

There drop wires were replaced several years ago during work by the power company, they were in part supported by a power pole that was replaced. Sadly my drop wire comes directly from the OR pole to my house

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Interesting then (from your closing remark) that it occurs regularly at around the same time. That should be traceable. Who in the vicinity turns what on, where?

YUP most days including yesterday evening (Sunday) but some days there is none or I fail to catch it. As for traceing I have tried to null it with a mains AM receiver but that's limited to inside the house so I am now set up with a battery portable to race outside and try a better trace.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Is it any/every day of the week; or is it clearly not happening on, say, Saturday and/or Sunday?

I wish it was consistent then it would be much easier to be ready for it with an AM receiver but some day's nothing, other days different time but on average just before and just after lunch if at all, but then sunday afternoon so a bit inconsistent, definitely not industrial hours but then this is a farming area and during harvest (now) farms operate 24/7

In reply to a post by MHC:

And who pays for the extra poles to be installed?
And why would EMI from a mains cable at 50 Hz, and even allowing for 101st harmonics cause problems with VDSL? They are in totally different frequency ranges.

There are no extra poles involved, in my case it's directly from the existing OR pole to my house. There is huge amounts of EMI on power cables at all sorts of frequencies originating from electronic equipment and arcs from brushgear etc. As for pickup it depends upon the kind of telco cable and the twisting rate, the more twists the less EMI at higher frequencies, the new drop wires I have seen are twisted almost as miuch as CAT5 where's my drop cable has no twists at all.

Thanks for the quick answer.

What about the QLTs, do you try that test during those bad spells etc?


Apart from farms, are there any "industrial" units near your lengthy line?

Regarding farms - any milk collection runs, with possibly a tanker engine or other related device running for a relatively short period?

Sludge collection?

Edited by deleted (Mon 22-Aug-16 09:34:05)

Good morning
I have done QLT's both during and outside of events and not noticed any difference, just a steady background hum with no crackles etc however radio goes crazy with loud buzzing.

No industrial units as such but some intensive pig units, no dairy herds here, sludge tankers all tractor driven, I know I have been scratching my head too, this thing has to be 10's of Kw or more!!

I keep thinking of large PWM drive of some sort because the frequency shifts during the event, starting around 750Khz then moving towards 550Khz weakening as it goes.

I found a BT/OR form for there ISP customers to fill in here
so I added it to my Pnet fault ticket asking if the needed help to fill it in!!

I already posted this once but it seems to ave lost it!

In reply to a post by fourtytwo:

Good morning
I have done QLT's both during and outside of events and not noticed any difference, just a steady background hum with no crackles etc however radio goes crazy with loud buzzing.

The steady background hum is coming from the mains cable , the radio goes crazy as it is picking up the EMI from the cable and emanating as loud buzzing.
Is there a main grid anywhere near your home that might have bad transformer hum.?
You could test this theory by moving the radio nearer to the mains cable or meter inside your home.
If the buzzing gets worse then your mains supply is being supplied by a grid that could need some more transformer shielding, just a thought.

Edited by deleted (Mon 22-Aug-16 11:23:57)

Could the pig units have some form of automated feeding; or sludge clearance at the other end of the natural cycle?


The frequencies you have given are in themselves clearly above audio frequencies, which in conjunction withe the QLTs being apparently fine, suggest that it might (only might) be interfering via the power supply/main adaptor for the modem/router, rather than the phone line/broadband connection route.

I suggest you try an EMI/RF Filter in your mains connection - often incorporated in to multi-way mains extensions; and relatively cheap.

Edited by deleted (Mon 22-Aug-16 11:40:00)

Is there a main grid anywhere near your home that might have bad transformer hum.?
You could test this theory by moving the radio nearer to the mains cable or meter inside your home.

Yes I have 440V/3Ph and neutral on poles along the street at the front and 11Kv/3ph about 50 meters down the back garden, my end of the village is fed from a pole transformer about 150M up the road where there is also a large contracting farm and pig unit.
Next time I get an event hopefully I will see it on the snr plot and rush around with my battery portable

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Could the pig units have some form of automated feeding; or sludge clearance at the other end of the natural cycle?
The frequencies you have given are in themselves clearly above audio frequencies, which in conjunction withe the QLTs being apparently fine, suggest that it might (only might) be interfering via the power supply/main adaptor for the modem/router, rather than the phone line/broadband connection route.
I suggest you try an EMI/RF Filter in your mains connection - often incorporated in to multi-way mains extensions; and relatively cheap.

The trouble is pig units are bio sealed and the farmer naturally doesn't take kindly to visitors however I will endevour to have a chat at some stage but to him EMI is a bit meaningless.
Long ago I fitted ferrites to the router power supply lead with no apparent effect.

So don't you just need this bell-cable dropwire replaced and all will be well?

Edited by deleted (Mon 22-Aug-16 12:14:29)

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

So don't you just need this bell-cable dropwire replaced and all will be well?

I feel very very strongly this would cure the problem or at least reduce it to insignificance but I cannot get anybody in Plusnet to listen to me despite various fault tickets complete with evidence over many months
Does anybody know of how to push a problem up the tree in Plusnet, I don't particularly want to leave ?

imo you need to report a phone fault. is the mains hum present at the master socket with all extension wiring disconnected? If so, report that as a phone fault distorting your calls and request the drop wire is replaced.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

imo you need to report a phone fault. is the mains hum present at the master socket with all extension wiring disconnected? If so, report that as a phone fault distorting your calls and request the drop wire is replaced.

That's a very good idea I will try it in the test socket next time I think its safe to resync DSL, problem atm is it's taken me about 4 days to get it stable. The mains hum is quite quiet so I am not sure I could say loud enough to distort voice calls and I fear if an eng visited on that basis they may do nothing and charge me for a wasted visit

A quiet line test should be just that, quiet. You shouldn't get any mains hum. Sounds to me like electronic interference

Well I certainly promise to try the phone in the test socket ASAP, and I guess report it as mains hum in QLT that way I have not made any claims as to the disturbance level Its certainly way above any hiss in fact I cannot hear any hiss because of the hum, but I am not aware of it using the phone for voice calls.

Just did a QLT on the test socket and its the same as an extension, hum is higher than hiss but hiss can still be heard, anyway I will report it and see.

Is that mains hum about the same level on the QLTs, whether the BB has been interfered with or not?

And is it easily heard, rather than having to strain to hear it?

Yes I would say it's the same level in both cases.
It's easily heard on the QLT but not during a conversation except if there is a pause or it's one of thos annoying silent calls.
Just tried the Pnet phone fault report, it d/c my dsl while it did a test then said oops!! call us......
Recorded message keeps trying to get me to go to internet lols, 13 minutes so far but determined

OMG the phone people REACT when you report a fault, BT coming this Thursday!!
Had to wait 25 minutes for call to be answered, could be better, then tested line found nothing of course but listened to my story of the old drop cable and could also hear hum so my hopes are up!!

You have to agree to a £50 charge if they decide it's your fault, and it was a good thing I had already tested the phone without filter in the test socket

Edited by fourtytwo (Mon 22-Aug-16 15:08:32)

If the Mains Hum or any other noises, "Snap, Crackle and Pop, engineering tones etc are EASILY heard during the QLTs, then there is a FAULT of some sort; and should be reported, preferably as a PHONE Fault, rather than Broadband.

The basic Phone Line should be either silent or a struggle to hear any form of noise.


Also subject to your using a simple corded phone for the QLT - I keep an old phone for that purpose - and it is not as ancient as I would like it to be.

Before reporting, check any mains/mains adaptor "phone" equipment you have, such as Answering Machines etc.

And there is always the chance that it is not phone-related equipment.

By unplugging, rather than simply switching off.

Fault finding and correction can be a long tedious task!

Signs, Symptons, Diagnosis, Treatment, Prognosis - Ad Infinitum

Edited by deleted (Mon 22-Aug-16 15:14:20)

All the extensions are disconnected as soon as I go into the test socket, the phone I use is line powered (no batteries or external mains power) just plain old analogue. We don't use the answerphone it's unplugged from the mains as it fills up with microsoft and other scam messages!!

Nope don't have to struggle to hear the hum. Already reported and BT coming Thursday yeyyyyy

In reply to a post by fourtytwo:

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

Could the pig units have some form of automated feeding; or sludge clearance at the other end of the natural cycle?
The frequencies you have given are in themselves clearly above audio frequencies, which in conjunction withe the QLTs being apparently fine, suggest that it might (only might) be interfering via the power supply/main adaptor for the modem/router, rather than the phone line/broadband connection route.
I suggest you try an EMI/RF Filter in your mains connection - often incorporated in to multi-way mains extensions; and relatively cheap.

The trouble is pig units are bio sealed and the farmer naturally doesn't take kindly to visitors however I will endevour to have a chat at some stage but to him EMI is a bit meaningless.
Long ago I fitted ferrites to the router power supply lead with no apparent effect.

You say that long ago you fitted "ferrites" to the router PSU lead , but ferrite rods are or used to be fitted to radio`s and coil wound for internal aerial use.?
Are they still fitted to the PSU lead.?

You say that long ago you fitted "ferrites" to the router PSU lead , but ferrite rods are or used to be fitted to radio`s and coil wound for internal aerial use.?
Are they still fitted to the PSU lead.?

Sorry Ironman I didn't make my answer clear, they are the split click together ferrite cores designed to filter EMI, I actually fitted two for good measure, they act as common mode chokes, you often see them molded into power cords or have some heat shrink around them, quite effective. Ohh yes they are still fitted.

PS I wish I could make the quote system work, still learning

In reply to a post by ironman12345:

You say that long ago you fitted "ferrites" to the router PSU lead , but ferrite rods are or used to be fitted to radio`s and coil wound for internal aerial use.?
Are they still fitted to the PSU lead.?

I guess he's talking about fitting a clip on ferrite (or similar) to the cable. The inductor that results helps to stop the cable acting as an antenna for unwanted high frequency signals.

Many cables have moulded on ferrites these days - they're the 'lumps' moulded on to the cable.


I'm a radio amateur, and sometimes find it necessary to wind audio frequency cables around a ferrite ring to prevent unwanted RF pickup.

NP yes they are used in mains power cords , I got confused a bit there.
Ferrite is very handy for choke use.
Sorry.

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by ironman12345:

You say that long ago you fitted "ferrites" to the router PSU lead , but ferrite rods are or used to be fitted to radio`s and coil wound for internal aerial use.?
Are they still fitted to the PSU lead.?

I guess he's talking about fitting a clip on ferrite (or similar) to the cable. The inductor that results helps to stop the cable acting as an antenna for unwanted high frequency signals.

Many cables have moulded on ferrites these days - they're the 'lumps' moulded on to the cable.


I'm a radio amateur, and sometimes find it necessary to wind audio frequency cables around a ferrite ring to prevent unwanted RF pickup.

Sorry David_W I got a bit confused there. I agree ferrite "rings" can bloke certain frequencies and "rods" can be used for the opposite.?

In reply to a post by ironman12345:

Sorry David_W I got a bit confused there. I agree ferrite "rings" can bloke certain frequencies and "rods" can be used for the opposite.?

Ferrite plus wire makes an inductor. How that inductor is placed in circuit determines what role it plays.


A ferrite added to a cable is, in essence, a low pass filter - it blocks high frequencies.

If you wind a coil around a ferrite rod and place a tuning capacitor across it, you have an LC tuned circuit, which can be used used as part of a simple LF or MF radio. Add a 'crystal' (diode), a high impedance earpiece and one resistor and you have a crystal set.

BT/Openreach have people who handle REIN cases but trying to contact them is the main problem.

The simple truth is that the CP providing the affected broadband service needs to raise an SFI task, the visiting engineer then performs various tests, and if they believe there is a REIN issue, they will raise a REIN case for a REIN trained/equipped engineer to visit.


I might add that the OP's issue doesn't sound like a REIN fault to me, sounds like a good old fashioned noisy line.

and request the drop wire is replaced.

Openreach won't just come out and replaced their spans on your say-so.

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by ironman12345:

Sorry David_W I got a bit confused there. I agree ferrite "rings" can bloke certain frequencies and "rods" can be used for the opposite.?

Ferrite plus wire makes an inductor. How that inductor is placed in circuit determines what role it plays.


A ferrite added to a cable is, in essence, a low pass filter - it blocks high frequencies.

If you wind a coil around a ferrite rod and place a tuning capacitor across it, you have an LC tuned circuit, which can be used used as part of a simple LF or MF radio. Add a 'crystal' (diode), a high impedance earpiece and one resistor and you have a crystal set.

Yes! I understand that David_W, I am nearly 80 and have built crystal sets.
Before that was the simple "Cats Whisker" but reception was very limited and crystal sets could only tune within the range of the crystal, fun though at least back then.
Still build electronic items [microelectronics] mainly PC systems.

But I guess this is not helping the OP, interesting though.

Edited by deleted (Mon 22-Aug-16 22:26:09)

In reply to a post by fourtytwo:

PS I wish I could make the quote system work, still learning

Click the quote button on a post that contains a quote and to will see how it is done. You can also edit the quote before posting - as you can see I removed most of your post .

You can also use anything you have copied to your clipboard from any source. Just the [ then q then ] to open and nearly the same to close, just /q instead of q .

I suggest that you really meant that crystal sets could only tune/operate within the frequency range of the LC circuit; combined with the sensitivity or rectification ability of the Cat's Whisker/Gallium contact ""diode", replaced in mid-20th century by semiconductor diodes, such as the OA81.

You may remember the double versions of about the late 1950s, where one set tuned to a nearby strong station, to produce a DC supply for the second set - with an early transistor added for amplification, so as to hear more remote, weaker stations.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I might add that the OP's issue doesn't sound like a REIN fault to me, sounds like a good old fashioned noisy line.

Hello Zarjaz, as previously explained the drop in dsl snr is accompanied by a loud buzzing noise from the radio.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

and request the drop wire is replaced.

Openreach won't just come out and replaced their spans on your say-so.

I wouldn't expect them to but I would expect them to investigate, not sure where you got that quote, was it me

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Click the quote button on a post that contains a quote and to will see how it is done. You can also edit the quote before posting - as you can see I removed most of your post .

You can also use anything you have copied to your clipboard from any source. Just the [ then q then ] to open and nearly the same to close, just /q instead of q .

Thank you so much, this is the bit I get confused with trying to edit quotes within quotes but its just following the hierarchy,

thanks for the tip about how to make any piece of text into a quote

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

I suggest that you really meant that crystal sets could only tune/operate within the frequency range of the LC circuit; combined with the sensitivity or rectification ability of the Cat's Whisker/Gallium contact ""diode", replaced in mid-20th century by semiconductor diodes, such as the OA81.

Well yes I agree with the above, but crystal`s each had a high and low range and depending on the LC circuit could be replaced [or switched] between to cover more ranges.
But that was years ago even before push/pull AD161/162 final amplification.
These days I mostly use a logic probe to test the state of gates on microchips which as you know contain thousand`s and more semiconductors.

You've also picked up that the closing of a quote (on these forums but rarely elsewhere) inserts a blank line. Inserting a carriage return, never mind two as some people do from habit, is not needed.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 23-Aug-16 09:46:43)

I suspect that you are confusing (quartz) Crystals used in Oscillators for Transmitters and also the Local Oscilattors of Fixed-Frequency receivers, rather than the (diode) crystals of Crystal Set radios.

At one time, I had a really nice 3.5 MHz Crystal in a B9A(?) valve/tube, so clearly visible for teaching purposes.

The crystal itself was about 2.5 inches high by 0.5 inches thick by about .05 inch thick. (62.5 mm x 12.5 mm x 1.25 mm)

Gold plated for contact purposes.

It provided the main timing pulses for a very early Numerical Control System for Milling Machines etc.

About 60 years back!

In reply to a post by ironman12345:

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

I suggest that you really meant that crystal sets could only tune/operate within the frequency range of the LC circuit; combined with the sensitivity or rectification ability of the Cat's Whisker/Gallium contact ""diode", replaced in mid-20th century by semiconductor diodes, such as the OA81.

Well yes I agree with the above, but crystal`s each had a high and low range and depending on the LC circuit could be replaced [or switched] between to cover more ranges.
But that was years ago even before push/pull AD161/162 final amplification.
These days I mostly use a logic probe to test the state of gates on microchips which as you know contain thousand`s and more semiconductors.

WILL YOU TWO PLEASE DESIST AND TAKE YOUR CRYSTAL RADIO DISCUSSION ELSEWHERE instead of hijacking my thread about REIN issues.

Forget broadband and get your noisy line sorted then your bb may be ok. If not then you can talk about REIN.

as previously explained the drop in dsl snr is accompanied by a loud buzzing noise from the radio.

Lots of things make audible noise on an MW radio, that doesn't mean that the source is producing REIN.

You need specialist equipment to hunt in earnest.

]
]

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

WILL YOU TWO PLEASE DESIST AND TAKE YOUR CRYSTAL RADIO DISCUSSION ELSEWHERE instead of hijacking my thread about REIN issues.

Point taken ,NP.
But if you read back in the posts you will see that I have stated "But this is not helping the OP to solve the problem" or something like that.
BTW no need to shout.

wrong quote number the above quote was meant to be fourtytwo.

Edited by deleted (Tue 23-Aug-16 19:21:21)

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Forget broadband and get your noisy line sorted then your bb may be ok. If not then you can talk about REIN.

I fear you have not read the post properly otherwise you would not make such a statement.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

as previously explained the drop in dsl snr is accompanied by a loud buzzing noise from the radio.

Lots of things make audible noise on an MW radio, that doesn't mean that the source is producing REIN.

You need specialist equipment to hunt in earnest.

Unusual then that the drop in snr precisely coincides with the start and end of noise on the radio and indeed an am radio is suggested here and in other forums for use in this manner, perhaps you have not read that information before!

The way I see it is that two things need attention:
1: The two cables that are running near each other might need sorting.
2: You say that you can here [hum] interference on your line.?
If so the only route is to report a noisy line and at the same time mention the cables to the engineer.

Sorry about the ferrite stuff, but you mentioning a radio somehow got that going.

Unusual then that the drop in snr precisely coincides with the start and end of noise on the radio and indeed an am radio is suggested here and in other forums for use in this manner

Yes, a radio can give an indication, but it is just that.

perhaps you have not read that information before!

Though I daresay you'll doubt me, but I have more than a little experience in this field, hence my advice in earlier posts.

I fear you have not read the post properly otherwise you would not make such a statement.

And I fear you are ignoring the sound advice you are being offered.

REIN is a strange one, and as Zarjaz pointed out, it is easy to jump to conclusions. Zarjaz is an openreach engineer himself and has a wealth of experience with this, so my two cents is to take some advice.

I had a noisy line for a long time and it was not fixed by getting a REIN engineer, despite REIN being suggested to be the issue by openreach... A standard engineer was able to change the E side and D side. Problem fixed.

"Quiet line test has only fairly faint mains hum."

From your first post. I fear you can't remember what you typed.
A QLT is as the name suggests QUIET!

In particular there is no mains power on a phone line. So a faint mains hum is clearly a problem.

Do you use a cordless phone or a (cheapo) corded one?

If cordless, then the hum could be from that or its power supply. Get a corded one for line testing. Typically under £10 from DIY and electronics shops.

Mine is stuffed away in a cupboard, but used every now and then for this and similar purposes.

This is just an update and reply to everybody (I hope)
Firstly BT did visit Thursday afternoon however as my ISP (Plusnet) have not yet made clear if they will charge or not for this visit nor posted anything on the outstanding fault ticket concerning it I feel I cannot yet venture an opinion and I am sorry for that.
Secondly I am sorry if at times I seem intemperate, this thread has become so rambling it's difficult for anybody to read, you are quite correct I cannot prove REIN as I don't have the correct instruments, I do have an analogue phone, DSLSTATS, a modem free of ISP hobbling software and an AM radio! I can also tell you when I started this I was able to sustain a BT wholesale speedtest of just over 4Mbps but now its down to 2.6Mbps. In the last 2 days alone there have been 6 incidents when snr dropped by 6dB or more 4 of those caused sync loss yet my ISP seems to think I am lucky (as I am within the expected speed range of 0)!!
Many thanks for all your comments and I wil post again when I finally get some information from PLUSNET!!

If you haven't done so yet, you need to post on the Plusnet Community forums. Reps visit there frequently - normally posting several times a day. They also less often visit here, but not this particular forum. More the dedicated Plusnet one, General, Fibre and ISP Unhappiness. The best place though is the Community ones. You get the same people, but sooner.

These are senior staff, streets ahead of the front line support. They are good, though not magicians.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

If you haven't done so yet, you need to post on the Plusnet Community forums. Reps visit there frequently

The problem there is the moderators they insist on coalescing all posts from an individual into one long confusing thread with a historic title nothing to do with the present problem!

Anyway Plusnet have replied to tha fault ticket saying cryptically the engineer fixed something and could I monitor, well I believe what was fixed was some QLT noise by re-crimping some connections and replacing an old master socket, we also redistributed the filters at the tail of the extensions rather than being in-between the test socket and everything else.

Meanwhile the REIN?? remains, in the 48hours Thursday.Friday there were 6 hits of >=6dB of which 4 caused a resynch. Despite the sync rate being 4235Kbps the BTwholesale test has fallen to 2460Kbps so I have reported this on the fault ticket. The IPprofile for this line is IP Profile for your line is - 3.74 Mbps so I guess network congestion maybe, I am sorry I guilty of drifting off my own subject but just to illustrate the effect! The only way I keep this lines sync rate up is to disconnect again after each event is over (10-20 minutes).

As I cannot post pictures here I want to describe the snr loss curve and hopefully you will understand why a simple modem/dslam re-sync doesn't restore it. Initially the snr drops by >=6db over about 1 minute, this often causes a resync, after about 5 minutes the snr recovers about half its initial loss, then after a further 10-20 minutes it fully recovers. Radio5live interference follows this pattern being blotted out completely for the first 5 minutes followed by background noise for the remaining 10-20 minutes. The only way to restore the pre-existing sync rate and hence snr is to wait till the event is completely over and then disconnect the line to force another re-sync.
In those cases where the event does not cause a sync loss the sync speed remains but at a much lower snr as the tone bins affected are locked out till the next re-sync hence I am often running at 3dB instead of 6!

Edited by fourtytwo (Sun 28-Aug-16 15:46:17)

Just a thought -- why not get an old 2Wire 2700HGV and use it as a modem? They are supposed to be really good on long and noisy lines.

BTW: I bought myself a TP-LINK WD8968 as a replacement for my old (and cranky) Netgear DG834N. It turned out to be less stable than the Netgear -- a real disappointment. If only I could get my old 2700HGV working! [sigh]

That isn't anything I've ever seen happen there. Unless perhaps you have confused them by insisting it is REIN.

You are looking at these forums I hope? IIRC there are some "User Group" or something ones as well which aren't what I meant. Describing what is happening rather than posting about what you have decided it probably is might prevent it.

As I have no idea what or where you have posted there that's all I can comment about it.

Then of course, there is what I said about the Plusnet forum here. I can assure you the mods on this site don't do that. Like I said, the forum you chose here isn't very likely to have ISP reps visiting. And really, only ISP reps are going to get a solution for you.

In reply to a post by micksharpe:

Just a thought -- why not get an old 2Wire 2700HGV and use it as a modem? They are supposed to be really good on long and noisy lines.

BTW: I bought myself a TP-LINK WD8968 as a replacement for my old (and cranky) Netgear DG834N. It turned out to be less stable than the Netgear -- a real disappointment. If only I could get my old 2700HGV working! [sigh]

Hello Mick, well I don't like the look of these newer exorbitant claim modems, its all in the wifi and probably increased noise levels around the dsl so I am not surprised with your findings. As for the netgear I used to have one and the 8960 is streets ahead, but I have never tried a 2700 if I get the opportunity I will and thanks for the tip!

Your points answered below

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

That isn't anything I've ever seen happen there. Unless perhaps you have confused them by insisting it is REIN. Nope I started a thread about QLN plot's.
You are looking at these forums I hope? IIRC there are some "User Group" or something ones as well which aren't what I meant. I am posting to this thread on this site
here
Describing what is happening rather than posting about what you have decided it probably is might prevent it. I have posted both what is happening and my opinions

As I have no idea what or where you have posted there that's all I can comment about it.
Then of course, there is what I said about the Plusnet forum here. I can assure you the mods on this site don't do that. Like I said, the forum you chose here isn't very likely to have ISP reps visiting. And really, only ISP reps are going to get a solution for you.

Well initially I was probing for other peoples opinions and experiences as I had had no satisfactory response/interest from Plusnet

Edited by fourtytwo (Sun 28-Aug-16 16:56:30)

In reply to a post by fourtytwo:

Despite the sync rate being 4235Kbps the BTwholesale test has fallen to 2460Kbps so I have reported this on the fault ticket. The IPprofile for this line is IP Profile for your line is - 3.74 Mbps

Just a quick update the speedtest rate has risen to nearly the profile today 3780 vs 3810Kbps either a bit of midnight processing or someone reading the fault ticket

Another lil update, firstly as I had no faith anybody would do anymore I took matters into my own hands, I removed the close coupling between the drop cable and power cables and since then no events on my DSL, OK it's only been just under 48 hours as I did it Monday morning.
The reason I am posting this now is startlingly Pnet want to send another BT engineer to investigate REIN so I had to come clean I very much hope he might replace the cr*p drop cable altogether or at least decide it needs re-routing. In any case my opinion of Pnet is rising, they escalated my ticket internally did a decent investigation and decided it needs more work, so here is hoping
Ohh and nobody at Pnet this time told me I was getting more than 1Mbps so should be happy, perhaps the penny is dropping that this really p*sses of customers.

Edited by fourtytwo (Tue 30-Aug-16 20:40:21)

Glad you got a fix in the end

Happy days!

In reply to a post by fourtytwo:

I removed the close coupling between the drop cable and power cables ... I had to come clean...

Heh!

"It�s easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission." -- Grace Murray Hopper

Glad you got it sorted.

In reply to a post by fourtytwo:

Another lil update, firstly as I had no faith anybody would do anymore I took matters into my own hands, I removed the close coupling between the drop cable and power cables and since then no events on my DSL, OK it's only been just under 48 hours as I did it Monday morning.

If you removed the close coupling between the 2 cables and the interference has gone away for 48 hours, then I was on the right track way back by stating "those 2 cables will definitely need more shielding or re-routing".
And the graph that you posted at the same time was definitely mains hum according to the shape.
So it looks like REIN interference from the mains was in the mix after all.

Edited by deleted (Tue 30-Aug-16 22:21:24)

Pnet want to send another BT engineer to investigate REIN so I had to come clean smile I very much hope he might replace the cr*p drop cable altogether

Just to let you know if they do send a REIN engineer (and this is entirely unlikely, as they only come after the case has been raised by an Openreach engineer) the REIN engineer WILL NOT be replacing any dropwire, they come and investigate the presence of REIN, and if they find evidence will try and locate the source. And thats it.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Pnet want to send another BT engineer to investigate REIN so I had to come clean smile I very much hope he might replace the cr*p drop cable altogether

Just to let you know if they do send a REIN engineer (and this is entirely unlikely, as they only come after the case has been raised by an Openreach engineer) the REIN engineer WILL NOT be replacing any dropwire, they come and investigate the presence of REIN, and if they find evidence will try and locate the source. And thats it.

Here is what Pnet said to me "I have been looking into the line regarding any further tweaks that we could try on the line and software, looking through this I believe there is nothing further we can investigate without an engineer to attend to investigate the source of the high number of errors and fluctuating SNR. I have raised the fault to our suppliers and they are requesting an engineer to be sent."
Hopefully I am on the way to BT accepting this as REIN and sorting it out in however many visits it takes!! I will sit on Pnet and they will sit on BT until this is resolved.

In reply to a post by ironman12345:

In reply to a post by fourtytwo:

Another lil update, firstly as I had no faith anybody would do anymore I took matters into my own hands, I removed the close coupling between the drop cable and power cables and since then no events on my DSL, OK it's only been just under 48 hours as I did it Monday morning.

If you removed the close coupling between the 2 cables and the interference has gone away for 48 hours, then I was on the right track way back by stating "those 2 cables will definitely need more shielding or re-routing".
And the graph that you posted at the same time was definitely mains hum according to the shape.
So it looks like REIN interference from the mains was in the mix after all.

I also came to that conclusion long ago though many here disagreed but I felt I had to go through due process first and only finally when that process appeared to fail did I take action. Many thanks to all the supporters including ukhard07 & micksharpe as well as yourself of course. I will update when something new happens.

I thought you had it resolved now?

It's resolved unofficially, now it has to be fixed officially as the fix involves BT's drop cable!

In reply to a post by ironman12345:

And the graph that you posted at the same time was definitely mains hum according to the shape.

What shape is that?

I used the wrong word by saying "definitely" but if you trace a mains frequency using an oscilloscope the shape of the trace is very near.
Obviously that does not mean a lot as the 2 would have to be compared closely, a wild theory I guess.
But the OP has separated the cables [mains & drop cable] and lost the interference.?

You mean the minor fluctuations in SNR margin (<0.5 dB) going up and down over minutes? I don't see how that correlates to alternating voltage on an oscilloscope over milliseconds.

An update especially for the trolls on this site who don't think anybody else can possibly know what they are talking about!
Today BT replaced the entire drop cable agreeing that REIN was caused by induction between the immediately adjacent power cables and the old figure 8 drop cable.
This is not a solution for every BB fault, it has taken many months of observation, record keeping and snr chart capture from DSLSTATS to provide the evidence. As any engineer knows intermittent faults are the worst!
But if you come to this site for advice do not take any notice of the negative elements and instead trust your intelligence.
For those who have supported me I thank you
P.S. As for those who think that someones use of the English language is inadequate, words fail me!!

Thanks for the update.

Result! Excellent news


Although, I can't really see any trolls here, everyone was trying to help you I think.

But you're right, don't get put off by negative views, faults should be fixed.

I understand why so much of your post concentrated on the negative advice...

However, I'd have preferred that after you told us that BT did something physical, you told us what they did, and what the impact on your service and statistics was. Same routing of cable, just with twisted pair now? Or new routing to avoid power entirely (like your unofficial fix)? SNR doesn't drop? SNR drops by just 1dB instead? Change in what can be heard on the QLT? Changes to the radio hum? Reduced error rates? Has the problem disappeared, or just "reduced to insignificance?"

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

I understand why so much of your post concentrated on the negative advice...

However, I'd have preferred that after you told us that BT did something physical, you told us what they did, and what the impact on your service and statistics was. Same routing of cable, just with twisted pair now? Or new routing to avoid power entirely (like your unofficial fix)? SNR doesn't drop? SNR drops by just 1dB instead? Change in what can be heard on the QLT? Changes to the radio hum? Reduced error rates? Has the problem disappeared, or just "reduced to insignificance?"

Yes I am sorry maybe I didn't say as much as I should have.
Firstly the QLT that was the subject of the first BT visit didn't resolve anything as far as the BB was concerned and in fact I learnt that what I was hearing was normal (background hiss and a little hum) but the guy replaced the old master socket and re-crimped the gable joint in jellies as insurance.
After that visit the REIN was as bad as ever with 6db+ snr hits causing re-syncs. In desperation I tore out the remaining length of figure 8 ty-wrapped to the big incoming power conductors to the house along the barge boards, bear in mind the REIN events/re-syncs only occur on 3-5 days a week so patience is required at each step however I was able to establish the hits had dropped in magnitude to ~3db and that was no longer sufficient to knock out the BB (as it runs a tsnr of 6db). At this stage I was left with a phone wire waving in the wind.
After collecting more evidence Pnet/BT agreed to another visit. The engineer did a very thorough job with his tester, looked at the plots I had printed for him before/after the drop cable move and said yup it's REIN by induction from the power cables and that drop cable needs replacing, initially from the house to the flying part but then said well the whole lot's a bit old I will just do it all.
Given the problems already experienced he decided to clip it to the brickwork rather than the barge board that has the effect of a ~200mm separation along the length concerned (~5Mtrs).
Needless to say whilst BT were here there were no REIN events however today there have been three so far, each one has been limited to no more than 3db. This indicates it is the re-routing of the cable that has done the job and the actual change in wire type is acting as insurance but may solve the wet problem I also had (snr droops in rain).
ATM I am watching and waiting before changing anything else though next up is the RJ11 connection to the router that will go twisted to further reduce susceptibility.
If all goes to plan and the droops remain just 3db I will be able to reduce the tsnr and increase the speed a little. Ohh I almost forgot radio5 live, it still gets blotted out but I did receive a nice letter from the BBC basically saying they have no resources for investigation, it's up to householders to self diagnose, trace the offender and ask them nicely not to do it, or alternatively had I thought of buying a DAB set!!
Once again thank you to the nice people here Sometimes it's just moral support to continue the struggle to achieve how it should be in the first place

Edited by fourtytwo (Wed 07-Sep-16 17:35:05)

What power cables are attached to your wall?

In reply to a post by broadband66:

What power cables are attached to your wall?

I live in a rural village, power is distributed by overhead cables from poles in the street to each house, in my case these cables then run along the barge boards to the garage where the meter is located. Telephones are also distributed overhead from poles in the street and in my case to the same gable as the power and the telephone wire was clipped down the barge board to the power cables...hope this makes sense

Thanks for taking the time to do the update. That adds a lot of information.

It is good that the drop in SNR has fallen into a "manageable" region now, but boy - it still seems like a lot.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Thanks for taking the time to do the update. That adds a lot of information.

It is good that the drop in SNR has fallen into a "manageable" region now, but boy - it still seems like a lot.

Its my pleasure, this village has a very severe interference problem the 5live transmitter is only 25 miles away, we don't have any hills and its 10Kw!! I feel like I am living in a metric wave oven given the REIN is powerful enough to blot out the transmitter here!!
In a way this was never a BT problem as the wiring is pretty standard for them and would have been sufficient were it not for the severe REIN in this village, so back to my original question "who is responsible for resolving REIN issues" i.e. the source of the problem ?
Well I have eliminated Ofcom and the BBC so who does that leave ?
Most people in the village are not aware of the problem other than there routers re-syncing sometimes several times a day, I see this same issue on several BB support sites (inexplicable router re-syncs) and wonder just how widespread REIN is. Presumably those of us on long lines with high losses suffer the worst and of course maybe overhead power cabling is partly to blame meaning its a predominantly rural problem like lack of fibre and we all know that will not be fixed anytime soon!! So we enjoy the countryside and pay our penances for being here

The Wireless Telegraphy (Control of Interference from Apparatus) Regulations 2016 (SI 2016/426) give powers to Ofcom to intervene in cases where equipment not intended to act as a radio transmitter is nevertheless radiating in excess of the limits laid down by the EMC Regulations in force at the time it was placed on the market / put into service.

However, Ofcom have very limited investigational resources and these are concentrated on safety of life services in conjunction with other organisations involved - aircraft radio (including navaids), marine radio, radar and radio systems used by the emergency services. They carry out some activity in relation to unlicensed and deliberate transmission in the broadcast bands ('pirate radio') and might intervene in other cases of interference with licensed transmissions.

There is no funding to investigate unintentional interference with broadcast radio and television. If you can localise the source of interference yourself and the user of the offending equipment refuses to act, then Ofcom might become involved, but they are not going to carry out the investigation for you.


Though the 5 Live transmitter is 25 miles away, the signal strength will be considerably lower at your location than at the boundary of the transmitter site. A source of interference much weaker than 10kW input power but local to you will obliterate the signal.

So are you saying that your issue was because of parallel power and telephone cables attached to your wall?

If so, is that REIN or just the normal advice to separate those type of cables?

REIN is "Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise", which covers all forms of electrical noise that is induced repetitively. It can indeed be caused by the parallel cables.

BTW's advice on REIN

I doubt if the transmitter is causing direct interference; but could it be arising from any feeder cables to it.

Our TV Tx is about 9 Kms in a straight line, with a total power of 45 KW - and I have not observed any problems relating to it, of this nature.

I upgraded to 40/10 VDSL in June 2014; shortly about August/September, I overheard the mobile side of a Public Service communication, whilst using my tower PC of the period.

From the one-sided, on the street, conversation, I picked up details such as names, very exact location etc.

This was about 23 KMs (13.4 Miles) in a straight line.

I'm very doubtful whether it was directly the mobile radio in use at the scene; presuming it being some form of cross-talk within the BT system.

------------

Some months later, I had a some-what similar experience; but this time it was the sound of a local radio station "somewhere".

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

I doubt if the transmitter is causing direct interference; but could it be arising from any feeder cables to it.

I understood the original poster was saying that the interference was affecting BBC 5 Live AM reception - in other words, the transmitter was being interfered with rather than being the interferer.

Broadcast transmitters are usually amongst the best installations there are for spectral purity because of the high signal strengths involved. If there is any evidence of poor on-air signal, Arqiva will likely be interested.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

I upgraded to 40/10 VDSL in June 2014; shortly about August/September, I overheard the mobile side of a Public Service communication, whilst using my tower PC of the period.

From the one-sided, on the street, conversation, I picked up details such as names, very exact location etc.

This was about 23 KMs (13.4 Miles) in a straight line.

I'm very doubtful whether it was directly the mobile radio in use at the scene; presuming it being some form of cross-talk within the BT system.

It sounds like a local analogue mobile installation broke through somehow. I'd guess at the interfering mobile being very close to your location. I'd also think it more likely that the breakthrough was the RF energy getting directly into your computer speakers (or the signal cable between the sound card and speakers), which often aren't the greatest performers in the presence of a fair amount of RF energy. Resolving audio is a little curious, though, as almost all analogue PMR is FM, which is unlikely to be trivially demodulated (usually you just hear a thump at key down and another at key up).

I would be rather surprised if sufficient RF energy could travel down a BT cable, into your computer and somehow to an AF amplifier sufficient to be demodulated, but it's possible, especially if there was a reasonable amount of coupling between the BT and speaker cables.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

REIN is "Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise", which covers all forms of electrical noise that is induced repetitively. It can indeed be caused by the parallel cables.

BTW's advice on REIN

Thank you so much for that link wombat A very interesting read about how they perceive it and there admission that in the case of 3rd party generation it's practically insoluble! I quote "Where the suspected source of REIN is third party this can be more problematic.
The success rate in these cases is typically less than 10%."

David

Unfortunately, you have replied on the wromg line and postings.

I can assure you almost absolutely (without being there) that the Mobile was about 23 KMs (15 Miles) away; as not only did the general one-side conversation, state clearly the road name - the only road of that name in a large area; but the speaker gave the location as being immediately outside a major garage chain, to make it easier for other Emergency Service Vehicles to find the location - so very clear, very concise.

The garage chain is readily confirmed using the given road name, in Google Earth and Street View.

Like yourself, I would not expect a typical ESV Mobile to cover such a distance, with various significant hills, both directly in line; and also if more devious routes are considered - even ore hills.

Unlikely to be Skip or Reflection, leaving the old POTS/BT inherited one as being possibly involved.

The only major group of radio masts near there involved with the ESV Radio Services is almost in line. about 4 KM from the Mobile location - BUT keeping in mind that these would be transmitting the UNHEARD responses from the Controllers; and very unlikely to be Repeating the very low-power MOBILE messages which I HEARD.

hence my thought turning to the former POTS Exchange/BT inherited building.

But even that does not seem to fit in.

It may have been somewhere in the hill-top main Masts to Controller Offices, probably via BT links, that some form of cross-talk/leakge occurred.

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

I doubt if the transmitter is causing direct interference; but could it be arising from any feeder cables to it.

I understood the original poster was saying that the interference was affecting BBC 5 Live AM reception - in other words, the transmitter was being interfered with rather than being the interferer.

Broadcast transmitters are usually amongst the best installations there are for spectral purity because of the high signal strengths involved. If there is any evidence of poor on-air signal, Arqiva will likely be interested.

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

I upgraded to 40/10 VDSL in June 2014; shortly about August/September, I overheard the mobile side of a Public Service communication, whilst using my tower PC of the period.

From the one-sided, on the street, conversation, I picked up details such as names, very exact location etc.

This was about 23 KMs (13.4 Miles) in a straight line.

I'm very doubtful whether it was directly the mobile radio in use at the scene; presuming it being some form of cross-talk within the BT system.

It sounds like a local analogue mobile installation broke through somehow. I'd guess at the interfering mobile being very close to your location. I'd also think it more likely that the breakthrough was the RF energy getting directly into your computer speakers (or the signal cable between the sound card and speakers), which often aren't the greatest performers in the presence of a fair amount of RF energy. Resolving audio is a little curious, though, as almost all analogue PMR is FM, which is unlikely to be trivially demodulated (usually you just hear a thump at key down and another at key up).

I would be rather surprised if sufficient RF energy could travel down a BT cable, into your computer and somehow to an AF amplifier sufficient to be demodulated, but it's possible, especially if there was a reasonable amount of coupling between the BT and speaker cables.

Once again my thread is polluted by irrelevant rubbish!! Please make sure you know what you are talking about before posting here and you are referencing the specific issues I raised in this thread.

As for the actual line in question it has now been running at a Tsnr of 4db for 2 weeks without break, the REIN is still present but reduced in amplitude to <2.5dB mostly by the drop wire replacement and re-routing of the same. The source of the REIN remains unidentified, it still blots out R5live and the BBC's response was switch to DAB. So it appears NOBODY is responsible for sorting out REIN issues despite the fact we are under an onslaught of non-compliant Chinese products (personal experience) making REIN an increasing problem.

People are trying to get involved and help. There must be someone you can pay handsomely to fix your issue.

If you're not satisfied with some of the suggestions then ask to get the thread locked and move on.