Router does not support PPPoE - device to do auth only?

Hi everyone!

My ISP uses PPPoE for authentication. My router (Eero) does not support PPPoE. I'd like to avoid double NAT (if that's even possible). Is there a device that could potentially sit in-front of the router that handles the auth only and lets the Eero handle everything else?

If I'm not mistaken, having a modem/router in bridge mode would just pass the PPPoE requirement to the router - but since that won't work is there a modem/router that has a "modem" mode, similar to how Virgin's hubs work?

Thanks!

Why the choice of Eero as a router if it doesn’t do PPPoE? Seems an odd choice to make.

You want a "wired router" and then configure the Eero to work as an access point only.

In reply to a post by aidanh:

You want a "wired router" and then configure the Eero to work as an access point only.

From the support pages i doesn't appear eero support Access Point only mode.
Please seen link below:

Eero

Thanks
Dan

Wow, that's terrible! Ignore my suggestion then. I didn't think it was possible that somebody would design a wifi router without an access-point only mode, every wireless router I've ever owned has had this option.

I've seen quite a few but on those you can disable DHCP and that basically turns it into an AP.
I'm more surprised that it doesn't support PPPoE, although as its designed for the US that could be why but I've never used a router that doesn't support it.

Thanks Dan

In reply to a post by Thelolinator:

I'd like to avoid double NAT (if that's even possible).

Well if not all is not lost. What need to do is something like this:-

The router from you isp I will call (ISP)
The router you already own I will call (Yours)

(ISP) get it IP address ie 192.168.0.1, you need to make shore this is different IP address (Yours) router ie 192.168.1.1 , both them can not use same IP's
(Yours) you will need to know it Wan MAC address.
(ISP) in this system DHCP register (Yours) Wan MAC address to lets say 192.168.0.100
(ISP) set DMZ (Demilitarized Zone) as 192.168.0.100

Connect (Yours) router from it WAN port to the (ISP) Lan Ports.

Connect all your kit to (Yours) router Lan-WiFi.

This way you will be able to do things like Port Forwarding.

Edited by amiga_dude (Fri 04-Jun-21 16:15:20)

Eero user here on Vodafone broadband. (Soon to be back with plusnet)

There’s no magic solution to this and I was very surprised to to find the Eero didn’t support PPPoE.

Ive not found any real issues though having the Vodafone router manage the connection and then the Eero as the first device. I normally switch off the Wifi in the Vodafone router to avoid any interference.

In reply to a post by aidanh:

Wow, that's terrible! Ignore my suggestion then. I didn't think it was possible that somebody would design a wifi router without an access-point only mode, every wireless router I've ever owned has had this option.

Is there any point to a SOHO/domestic “router” (in the UK) that doesn’t do PPPoE and can’t be placed in access point mode?

You need at least another box to make it function as it should.

Why do people buy it exactly? Seems flipping bizarre to me, unless they like lots of boxes with pretty lights.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Is there any point to a SOHO/domestic “router” (in the UK) that doesn’t do PPPoE and can’t be placed in access point mode?

Okay with Virgin Cable if you set the Virgin Hub into modem mode. This then provides the public IP over DHCP. eero I believe is now owned by Amazon, and is a US product, so probably only planned for DHCP cable networks.

In comparison reviews I believe the ASUS and BTwholehome products generally get scored higher.

Eero should not be sold in the UK, or sold as "suitable for virgin media only".

Edited by jchamier (Sat 05-Jun-21 20:42:39)

No. Amazon bought Eero and the sum total of the development work they have done for the UK market is to change the power adapter in the box.

In reply to a post by Thelolinator:

If I'm not mistaken, having a modem/router in bridge mode would just pass the PPPoE requirement to the router - but since that won't work is there a modem/router that has a "modem" mode, similar to how Virgin's hubs work?

You need a device that does "half-bridge" which handles the PPPoE logon and then spoofs the public IP to your eero.

Worth asking the Draytek world if the Draytek 130 modem can do this. It is the sort of advanced feature they MIGHT support. It isn't something their marketing pages mention however. Over 10 years ago a Thomson ADSL router (with the old BE ISP) could be convinced to do something similar.

https://www.draytek.co.uk

Some creativity with RouterOS on Mikrotik would be similarly achieved, but this is frankly a ridiculous thing to have to do.

I’d be taking advantage of Amazon’s returns policy and getting something fit for purpose, out of the box, that does what’s needed not spending more time and cash cobbling together a solution.

These things aren’t designed for UK based IsPs - with the VM cable exception you’ve noted. Just send it back.

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the replies - much appreciated.

Just to note I’m currently with Now Broadband (waiting for FTTP rollout sometime this year, so wanted a rolling contract) and the Eeros currently are working as access points - I was looking at another potential ISP that does rolling contracts but with PPPoE so was hoping there might’ve been a solution where the Eeros weren’t acting as just APs.

In reply to a post by amiga_dude:

In reply to a post by Thelolinator:

I'd like to avoid double NAT (if that's even possible).

Well if not all is not lost. What need to do is something like this:-

The router from you isp I will call (ISP)
The router you already own I will call (Yours)

(ISP) get it IP address ie 192.168.0.1, you need to make shore this is different IP address (Yours) router ie 192.168.1.1 , both them can not use same IP's
(Yours) you will need to know it Wan MAC address.
(ISP) in this system DHCP register (Yours) Wan MAC address to lets say 192.168.0.100
(ISP) set DMZ (Demilitarized Zone) as 192.168.0.100

Connect (Yours) router from it WAN port to the (ISP) Lan Ports.

Connect all your kit to (Yours) router Lan-WiFi.

This way you will be able to do things like Port Forwarding.

I did try to use DMZ in this way but couldn’t get it to work (Eero’s had no internet connectivity). Could just be Sky’s awful router 🤷‍♂️.

Unfortunately I needed a mesh system (otherwise I prefer your more typical type of router that I can put OpenWrt on) - and I also wanted to have HomeKit router support as well. The market for that is severely limited and Eero is the only one that fit the bill so went with that - rather unfortunately I was surprised to find out they didn’t support PPPoE.

I did previously have Linksys’s MX10 mesh system - but they haven’t pushed ANY updates for it since March 2020 and their previous systems were more featureful (including HomeKit support) - how crazy to regress in such a way. So those were swiftly returned.

Apart from Virgin and the FTTP provider I’m waiting for that doesn’t require auth with PPPoE - does anyone know of an ISP that the Eeros would support?

Thanks again!

Edited by Thelolinator (Sun 06-Jun-21 10:51:12)

I think that TalkTalk (residential) just have the modem establish VDSL sync and then issue IP addresses by DHCP (as in there's no PPPoE).

https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/Articles/Set-up-...

Edited by jpm (Sun 06-Jun-21 11:04:28)

That would still require a TalkTalk (or another) router to act as the VDSL modem would it not? Presumably then OP is back at square one with double NAT or DMZ quandary.

In reply to a post by Thelolinator:

waiting for FTTP rollout sometime this year, so wanted a rolling contract

Which FTTP provider are you waiting for?

In reply to a post by Thelolinator:

Apart from Virgin and the FTTP provider I’m waiting for that doesn’t require auth with PPPoE - does anyone know of an ISP that the Eeros would support?

I think you're out of luck. If you can't return the Eeros, then maybe eBay them?

Any other brand of mesh WiFi is going to be better in the UK than the Eero products. Many connect as access points to an existing router, such as the stuff given by the ISP, so all you need to do is disable WiFi on the ISP provided router to have a fully functioning mesh.

BT Whole home is in Argos too, so you can buy in a traditional store:
https://www.argos.co.uk/search/bt-whole-home-wifi/?c...

Some brands:

* ASUS
* Netgear
* BT Wholehome
* TPLink

Well not all ISP's use PPPoE which is frankly from a technical perspective a dumb hangover from the days of dialup. Notably TalkTalk and Sky don't use it.

Second the optimal placement for a VDSL modem is almost never an optimal placement for WiFi access points, so meh you need an extra box, and besides with full fibre you are going to have a separate ONT anyway.

Yep you just need to tag for VLAN31 from memory of setting it up for my brother. Also I believe that Sky do plain DHCP with the use of option 61.

Frankly PPPoE in a world of xDSL makes zero sense from a technical perspective. It's nothing more than a hangover from the days of dialup.

Hmm yeah fly in the ointment there…is that the OP’s present ISP does actually use PPPoE…never mind how inferior it may be. It is what it is.

All the other stuff about optimal WiFi vs VDSL placement is an irrelevance as he wants to use a mesh WiFi solution.

If you can present a workable bridge solution with PPPoE, without double NAT that would be blooming marvellous 😀

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

That would still require a TalkTalk (or another) router to act as the VDSL modem would it not? Presumably then OP is back at square one with double NAT or DMZ quandary.

Well you could just plug an Openreach/Draytek modem straight into the Eero's WAN port and it would work.

I'd be quite happy to lose PPPoE, it would make everything plug-and-play and presumably remove the need for ISPs to terminate lots of PPP sessions.

Edited by jpm (Sun 06-Jun-21 21:23:08)

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

Frankly PPPoE in a world of xDSL makes zero sense from a technical perspective. It's nothing more than a hangover from the days of dialup.

Out of interest, how do other shared wholesale networks direct traffic to the right ISP ? I understood Openreach used the username to identify the right VLAN / path to direct the traffic, and the ISP used the username & password to authenticate before providing the public IP. But it has been years since I’ve read the SINs.

Edited by jchamier (Sun 06-Jun-21 21:54:03)

In reply to a post by jpm:

Well you could just plug an Openreach/Draytek modem straight into the Eero's WAN port and it would work.

Where would you enter the ISP’s authentication information? The Draytek 130 modem website says you need to do this in your router, not in their modem.

This was in response to suggesting TalkTalk could be used as an ISP. They don’t use PPPoE on Openreach GEA services so it would work with the Eero that just wants DHCP WAN.

Thanks.

Ok I follow you now.

Incidentally I’m changing over to TTB (on Openreach based FTTP) this week - have been working on the presumption that they use PPPoE as per BT, Cerberus etc on GEA, but it appears this may not be the case and they simply use DHCP. Interesting.

Their online documentation re FTTP is patchy at best, needs a proper update and I’m still waiting to get on boarded properly.

According to their "how do I connect a third party router" page, TalkTalk Business still use PPPoE. I am just talking about the residential service.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Ok I follow you now.

Incidentally I’m changing over to TTB (on Openreach based FTTP) this week - have been working on the presumption that they use PPPoE as per BT, Cerberus etc on GEA, but it appears this may not be the case and they simply use DHCP. Interesting.

Their online documentation re FTTP is patchy at best, needs a proper update and I’m still waiting to get on boarded properly.

Only Talktalk residential use DHCP.

Their business customers use PPPoE.

I'm only aware of Talktalk residential and Sky (also nowtv) who don't use PPP over the OpenReach GEA network.

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 07-Jun-21 14:50:51)

With any xDSL connection Openreach effectively build a layer two connection to the ISP anyway so ask yourself what does building a PPPoE connection over the top of the existing layer two network bring to the table? You can see this is the case because you can only contact your own ISP's PPPoE servers.

Basically the short answer is not a lot and it has a whole bunch of downsides such as additional latency, a small reduction in the usable bandwidth, and a whole bunch of cost in terminating all those PPPoE sessions.

The alternative is just use the perfectly good layer two network that Openreach build between the cabinet and your ISP. If you really want to authenticate each session then do what Sky does and use option 61 on the DHCP response to have the customers router provide login details. TalkTalk don't even both with that you just have to tag your traffic for VLAN 31 and you are good to go.

If two of the largest ISP's in the country don't feel the need to use PPPoE that should tell you something about the need for it.

I guess it might have been necessary with ADSL as this was done using ATM in the early days for the back haul to the ISP in the UK (you use PPPoA rather than PPPoE), but Ethernet has beaten all other protocols into the ground these days.

In IT you have to regularly step back and ask yourself why am I doing it this way. If you don't you continue in a rut of doing it the way you have always done even though the underlying rational behind those decisions has long since changed making a different approach way more sensible.

I don't think there is a decent solution beyond changing the mesh solution or changing the ISP.

Thanks John. Been speaking with the FTTP Provisioning team from TTB this afternoon, and am now in possession of my PPPoE login and static IP details.

Hopefully ready for changeover later in the week!

In reply to a post by jabuzzard:

TalkTalk don't even both with that you just have to tag your traffic for VLAN 31 and you are good to go.

Can you expand on that?

I've been with Talktalk residential (twice) and never had to VLAN tag any of their traffic.

VLAN 101 on the modem as with all OpenReach FTTC.
The OpenReach ONT adds a similar VLAN tag for FTTP.

You simply need to select DHCP/IPOE on any router and Talktalk automatically assign an IP.

I've never heard of them using VLAN 31 though.

Oh interesting - so what I've found out currently:

Eero supports VLAN tagging and talktalk is one of the few that allows authenticating that way (does anyone know any others)?

I'm currently with NOW TV so I can use some Netgear routers and any ASUS router that supports Merlin to authenticate via DHCP Option 61. I was considering switching to a provider with PPPoE but doesn't seem like a wise choice with my current hardware.

So, here what I'm thinking:

Stay with NOW TV and buy two ASUS routers, with one connected as a wired AP. When FTTP comes to town (due this year apparently), leave the rolling contract and move over ASAP - considering switching back to a router setup that supports HomeKit then.

Unless someone knows of another ISP that has 12 months or rolling contracts and allows VLAN tagging for auth, seems like my best course of action, right?

What does HomeKit actually give you when it's a feature on a router? My preference here would be to return or sell the Eero setup and buy something else, rather than messing around.

The alternative is you just put up with double NAT, and connect any games consoles you have directly to your ISP router.

Edited by jpm (Mon 07-Jun-21 17:05:15)