Should there be a new NTE faceplate for BT Digital-Voice?

Should there be a new NTE faceplate for BT Digital-Voice to connect any digital voice equipment to your home wiring instead of the previous analogue wiring?

No, because digital voice will be from your router. If you are on FTTC, then your router will still connect as it always have the phone will just connect to the router, For fibre then you will have the ONT and your router connected to that and then your phone will be connected to your router, I presume unless it is connected directly to the ONT.
Not need for a new NTE faceplate. I want to get rid of mine to be honest if I can.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

unless it is connected directly to the ONT.

ONT powered voice ports disappeared as the retail ISP/voice provider may not be the same as the fibre network provider.

e.g. Openreach providing the fibre, and Sky providing the ISP data services and voice services.

Pretty sure FVA has been dead and buried for years. Openreach stopped putting voice ports on their ONTs before the pandemic.

No. It's a waste to spend time developing such a product, and there are instructions that people want to DIY this type of solution can follow.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

No, because digital voice will be from your router. If you are on FTTC, then your router will still connect as it always have the phone will just connect to the router,

If you have a wired phones the present NTE faceplate will connect it to the incoming phone line. With BT digital voice wired phones will need to be connected the router with a suitable plug. Not everyone will manage to do this easily.

With due respect, and doubtless I get get pilloried by the majority demographic (on here anyway), but extension wiring….like it’s 2023. It’s so niche no ISP other than good old A&A can be bothered dishing out instructions.

Openreach did trial a number of voice reinjection (VRI) faceplates which allowed a VoIP / Digital Voice analogue phone service to be connected to the fixed house extension wiring.

However, with the introduction of the NTE5c premises could have an NTE5c, an original NTE5 or an older style master socket so it isn't just a case of the ISP sending out one type of replacement service-specific faceplate (SSFP) which the customer could swap, it would either require the customer to correctly identify what type of master socket they have and/or an engineer visit.

Given the continued reduction in use of fixed wiring, e.g. many premises will have a cordless phones with a DECT base so it only requires the connection from that to the master socket to be moved to the ISP router phone socket, I suspect that VRI SSFPs were quietly dropped.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

If you have a wired phones the present NTE faceplate will connect it to the incoming phone line. With BT digital voice wired phones will need to be connected the router with a suitable plug. Not everyone will manage to do this easily.

I can see your point, these people will have to get someone in to do it. My next door neighbour have digital voice from Sky and I connected their extension to it. It was a waste of time as now they have disconnected it, got fed up with the spam calls.

a lot of people will get rid of the home phone, I think, the only reason most people have one is that it was available

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

With due respect, and doubtless I get get pilloried by the majority demographic (on here anyway), but extension wiring….like it’s 2023. It’s so niche no ISP other than good old A&A can be bothered dishing out instructions.

Totally fair point.

However it's worth noting that telephone extention wiring kits have continued to be a staple item in DIY stores over recent years, which suggests there's been some demand.

There was also the advice about ensuring people have a wired phone alongside their cordless one in case of a power cut (advice which is defunct in a post-PSTN world!), and some suggestion (or was it even in the building regs for new builds for a period?) of having a wired extension upstairs.

There's also the somewhat niche but quite real issue of buildings with thick walls.

I can well imagine, as the switch to DV goes on, some people being quite surprised that all their intricate home extension wiring suddently means nowt (unless they opt for a voice reinjection solution).

That said, it's easy to see it all becoming a relic of the past in households, a bit like disused gas piping to rooms for gas fires, or in grander properties (perhaps subsequently converted to flats) the remains of maids or servants call bell systems.

That's what I mean, the people who use a landline and have corded handsets dotted around the house plugged into extensions must be miniscule. I would bet that within the minority of people who use a landline phone, those who don't have a DECT system are an even smaller minority.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

a lot of people will get rid of the home phone, I think, the only reason most people have one is that it was available

I think it was Ofcom that reported the number of phone calls made on "land lines" is less than a quarter of what it was 10 years ago. Many many calls have been replaced by other means (e.g. email) that even in corporate business where we used to have a phone on every desk that has gone.

However it's worth noting that telephone extention wiring kits have continued to be a staple item in DIY stores over recent years, which suggests there's been some demand.

Probably so they can/could put the modem somewhere else than the insanely stupid places even many new builds put them.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

Should there be a new NTE faceplate for BT Digital-Voice to connect any digital voice equipment to your home wiring instead of the previous analogue wiring?

Nope, phones will die. You should be grateful that routers are even including a socket for these old phones, they are a thing of the past and belong in the bin.

and what about all of te alarm systems that use them connectivity? They work over VoIP but still need a physical connection.

There was talk years ago of new faceplates but nobody seemed to ever see one and they seemingly faded away before appearing.

Its often the most vulnerable who still rely on an old fashioned telephone which is extremely easy to use compared to a dect handset. Both technically and physically.

That said if you are with a BT isp the digital voice adapters provide wireless extension sockets and are quite reasonably priced. They are really quite a good idea to transform a traditional telephone into a modern dect one. Unfortunately they are a proprietary closed standard that only works with BT routers... So hard luck if you change isp. It is weirdly hard to find a generic telephone to dect adapter.

Otherwise buy a master socket from screwfix for £5 and put it next to your master socket, move the extension wires across and connect to your router.

Or rip out the master telephone line from your existing master socket, wrap the ends in insulating tape and hide in the wall. But you are not really meant to do that.

Happily the only time I have had to face this so far the extensions were not hardwired which made it easy. My tip for that is to look for an old microfilter with a capacitor in it as without the master socket you need the capacitor to make some telephones ring.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

No, because digital voice will be from your router. If you are on FTTC, then your router will still connect as it always have the phone will just connect to the router, For fibre then you will have the ONT and your router connected to that and then your phone will be connected to your router, I presume unless it is connected directly to the ONT.
Not need for a new NTE faceplate. I want to get rid of mine to be honest if I can.

Yes because (presumably??) much of what a current master socket does s no longer needed when the analogue service is shut down. The incoming copper connects to the modem, and that does the work of creating the ability to use an analogue phone over VoIP.

So there must surely be the potential (even if the DGAS about customers morons at BT don't do it) for something a tad less intrusive than anNTE5 +ADSL faceplate?

In reply to a post by Erwins_pussy:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

No, because digital voice will be from your router. If you are on FTTC, then your router will still connect as it always have the phone will just connect to the router, For fibre then you will have the ONT and your router connected to that and then your phone will be connected to your router, I presume unless it is connected directly to the ONT.
Not need for a new NTE faceplate. I want to get rid of mine to be honest if I can.

Yes because (presumably??) much of what a current master socket does s no longer needed when the analogue service is shut down. The incoming copper connects to the modem, and that does the work of creating the ability to use an analogue phone over VoIP.

So there must surely be the potential (even if the DGAS about customers morons at BT don't do it) for something a tad less intrusive than anNTE5 +ADSL faceplate?

Yes, just an RJ11 socket, with a surge arrester inside it.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/mk-base-rj11-telephone-da...

A bit like most of the rest of the world have been using for yonks

You still need a demarcation point, i.e. somewhere to plug the copper uplink for the router, and you still need the surge arrester that's in the master box.

A replacement for pure digital copper services without a splitter and phone jack would be only marginally thinner.

OR could develop such a thing, but the target is for 85% of us to have FTTP available by Dec 2026 anyway, so it's not really worth it.

I suspect it could be quite a lot thinner. It wouldn't need an internal BS 6312 plug and socket to connect two halves together, for example.

The reason I'm interested is that I currently have an NTE5+ADSL front plate fixed to a small enclosure with connectors in it from which extension sockets are wired.

I need to move the master socket to somewhere else, & I was going to change the enclosure at the same time, and it would be nice to have something smaller than the existing master.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

With due respect, and doubtless I get get pilloried by the majority demographic (on here anyway), but extension wiring….like it’s 2023. It’s so niche no ISP other than good old A&A can be bothered dishing out instructions.

The majority demographic here, or that in the whole country?

Please don't take this as saying that you're one, because it absolutely isn't, but that thinking is partly that of the DGAS BT morons I mentioned before.

Their "demographic" is that nobody uses landlines for voice. It is that nobody uses landlines for alarms of any type. Because they don't.

It is that everybody has a mobile phone and good coverage. Because they do.

It is that everybody has a good, and reliable, broadband service which they use. Because they do.

They are morons, because they assume that the entire country is like them, and they DGAS about the fact that it is not.

In reply to a post by binary:

There was also the advice about ensuring people have a wired phone alongside their cordless one in case of a power cut (advice which is defunct in a post-PSTN world!)

The BT morons DGAS about power-cuts, as they all live somewhere where they are rare, and short duration, so they assume it's like that everywhere.

There's also the somewhat niche but quite real issue of buildings with thick walls.

The BT morons DGAS about thick walls because they all live in places without them, so they assume it's like that everywhere.

I can well imagine, as the switch to DV goes on, some people being quite surprised that all their intricate home extension wiring suddently means nowt (unless they opt for a voice reinjection solution).

The BT morons DGAS about analogue extension wiring because they don't have any, so they assume it's like that everywhere.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

Openreach did trial a number of voice reinjection (VRI) faceplates which allowed a VoIP / Digital Voice analogue phone service to be connected to the fixed house extension wiring.

However, with the introduction of the NTE5c premises could have an NTE5c, an original NTE5 or an older style master socket so it isn't just a case of the ISP sending out one type of replacement service-specific faceplate (SSFP) which the customer could swap, it would either require the customer to correctly identify what type of master socket they have and/or an engineer visit.

Given the continued reduction in use of fixed wiring, e.g. many premises will have a cordless phones with a DECT base so it only requires the connection from that to the master socket to be moved to the ISP router phone socket, I suspect that VRI SSFPs were quietly dropped.

You can buy them on eBay.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

a lot of people will get rid of the home phone, I think, the only reason most people have one is that it was available

One reason I have them is that I valued the reliability of the old POTS system.

But it seems that the DGAS morons at BT don't value it, so they assume that nobody does.

Rather than blaming BT you may want to review Ofcom’s guide

In reply to a post by Erwins_pussy:

You can buy them on eBay.

There are plenty of NTE5A and NTE5C sockets plus xDSL faceplates for both, but I've never seen a voice reinjection faceplate listed.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

You still need a demarcation point, i.e. somewhere to plug the copper uplink for the router, and you still need the surge arrester that's in the master box.

I stumbled across an NTE5C 'TearDown' on You Tube, and Openreach now seem to have ditched the Surge Arrester ? (And no soldered components, all rather 'Chad Valley' )

https://youtu.be/jD67a-ZC7VY?t=162

Edited by broadbandjockey (Sat 25-Nov-23 17:36:05)

No, because this would be irrelevant as you'll still need your BT Smart Hub 2 router to connect for digital voice.

Also, with FTTP being upgraded why would Openreach install a new NTE for FTTC that uses DV?
Alternatively there's a solution to have what you want and that's a Digital Voice Adapter. https://www.bt.com/help/user-guides/phones/digital-v...
This allows you to plug in to a power socket and still get a Telephone Socket that works via a wireless Digital Voice service. But this will only work with a BT Smart Hub 2 router.

However, no doubt that for the elderly people this will be a problem, especially the ones with Alzheimer's disease/dementia. They will need to be technical and know how to either connect the wireless Alexa digital handset phone as it will need initial WPS registration with router or they need help with someone plugging their phone to the router.

There's also one further drawback that you're forced to use only the ISP router and for those elderly people who are not interested in broadband have no choice but to still opt for a broadband service since they need Digital Voice.

This is why the purpose of an NTE faceplate is defeated since DV is very much reliant on a broadband connection. There's no way you can have a faceplate without it connecting to the actual internet service. That is also another reason Openreach want to retire analogue so they don't have to deal not only with the outdated copper cables but also the extra faceplate dependency that requires a phone port. The only way to effectively retire the copper line for good while still retaining a phone service is to have Digital Voice. This has been made with FTTP in mind. No one wants to have to deal with a separate copper line just for analogue voice.

My biggest complaint isn't the lack of a separate telephone port on the socket for DV but the dependency to use a BT Smart Hub 2 router or the actual ISP router. This can be a big problem for people who want to use their router. Because as you know you can't disable automatic firmware upgrades with most ISP routers. If router fails and you don't have a backup then the DV telephone service ceases to works.

I like DV and certainly this is the future. But I'd like compatibility with future third party routers. For example the wireless phone should've been made to work with a third party router via a WiFi registration in the same way that does now. Except that this isn't a WiFi device but a special wireless service only for the phone. It shouldn't be exclusively tied to the ISP router because then you have to give up the phone should you want to use your own router.

Edited by BLaZiNgSPEED (Sun 26-Nov-23 01:47:20)

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

. . . those elderly people who are not interested in broadband have no choice but to still opt for a broadband service since they need Digital Voice.

Not true. The ISP will have to supply some way for the customer to connect but there is no compulsion to take on an internet service to maintain a phone connection. That is the ISP's problem. The most likely way forward is that the ISP will provide a basic router with phone socket or ATA and then enable a broadband service locked down to 1MBps or less. The customer is not opting for this solution, it is the provider's solution to maintaining the service. This will be required to be provided at no cost to the customer.

Non-technical people will require help to set this up and it will be interesting to see what arrangements are made for such people with landline phones on extensions elsewhere in the house.

Edited by GonePostal (Sun 26-Nov-23 08:57:38)

For people who have an existing POTS landline-only service from BT, BT/OR are installing media gateways in exchanges to allow the existing service to continue post Dec-2025.

You won't be able to order it as a new service though. Eventually the existing users will be gone, so that should not affect the long-term exchange closure programme.

Does anyone order a new voice-only landline service these days? If they do, I expect they'll be recommended to buy broadband with a digital voice service included, from the likes of BT, Sky, Vodafone or Zen.

In reply to a post by jpm:

That's what I mean, the people who use a landline and have corded handsets dotted around the house plugged into extensions must be miniscule. I would bet that within the minority of people who use a landline phone, those who don't have a DECT system are an even smaller minority.

There's a job in policy & decision making waiting for you in BT.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Rather than blaming BT you may want to review Ofcom’s guide

Will that be the Ofcom with real powers, a determination to use them to make broadcasting, telecommunications & postal industries, and online video-sharing platforms behave, and a proven track record of using those powers, or a different Ofcom?

And anyway - any business run by people with scruples, morals, principles, in an decent and honest way, with actual care for the interests of its customers and of wider society would not need an external regulator to tell them how to run their business.

In reply to a post by tdw42:

In reply to a post by Erwins_pussy:

You can buy them on eBay.

There are plenty of NTE5A and NTE5C sockets plus xDSL faceplates for both, but I've never seen a voice reinjection faceplate listed.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195595346888

That's a modified VDSL filter, it's not the product that Openreach announced and then never released. See page 12 of https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cpp...

In reply to a post by Erwins_pussy:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195595346888

That's a hacked/modified xDSL SSFP, not a genuine VRI one. Expensive for what is involved for DIY.

That looks like a standard SSFP to me, and a double ended PSTN jack cable.

The FVA faceplates have/had a switch on the side allowing toggling of the voice feed from the rear NTE input to the tags inside which feed back from an external cable from the router/ONT

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

. . . those elderly people who are not interested in broadband have no choice but to still opt for a broadband service since they need Digital Voice.

Not true. The ISP will have to supply some way for the customer to connect but there is no compulsion to take on an internet service to maintain a phone connection. That is the ISP's problem. The most likely way forward is that the ISP will provide a basic router with phone socket or ATA and then enable a broadband service locked down to 1MBps or less. The customer is not opting for this solution, it is the provider's solution to maintaining the service. This will be required to be provided at no cost to the customer.

Non-technical people will require help to set this up and it will be interesting to see what arrangements are made for such people with landline phones on extensions elsewhere in the house.

Yes, I'm aware of this phone service with 1Mbps. But the point is that this is still going through a broadband connection and still relies on the customer to connect the telephone to the router however, basic it may be.

I'm not aware of a special phone socket for these users apart from the BT Digital Voice plug in socket. I have googled and I cannot find a Digital Voice faceplate. The closest I have found is this.. https://www.run-it-direct.co.uk/blog/full-fibre-fibr...
But the FTTP modem has a telephone port but this is only when you get upgraded to FTTP from Openreach.

For existing FTTC customers they still have to use the router. This will be confusing for some users as plugging phone into the existing faceplate will not have any dial tone.

In reply to a post by Erwins_pussy:

In reply to a post by tdw42:

In reply to a post by Erwins_pussy:

You can buy them on eBay.

There are plenty of NTE5A and NTE5C sockets plus xDSL faceplates for both, but I've never seen a voice reinjection faceplate listed.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195595346888

I have exactly the same NTE5C MK4 Faceplate as part of an FTTC upgrade 3 years ago. The telephone port on BT Digital Voice does not work. Please see this image... https://www.ispreview.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/bt-op...
This socket becomes redundant on DV. If you plug the telephone line you'll get no dial tone because the Digital Voice service is being served on an SOGEA.

What we are currently getting with DV is SOGEA so the analogue service does not work.

So for the seller on eBay to claim that this is a "BT Digital Voice phone socket reactivation" is a scammer!

Hint: Returns: No returns accepted.

Because he knows that when we receive it the phone service will not work. £44 for this is criminal. The same socket costs £9.50 on amazon. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Openreach-Telephone-Master-...
Yet the seller claims in the description that Digital Voice will work by plugging phone into that socket. Very deceptive! He should be reported to eBay.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

For existing FTTC customers they still have to use the router. This will be confusing for some users as plugging phone into the existing faceplate will not have any dial tone.

Strange how some people are seem to want to pick a fight while confirming the original point.

In reply to a post by Erwins_pussy:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Rather than blaming BT you may want to review Ofcom’s guide

Will that be the Ofcom with real powers, a determination to use them to make broadcasting, telecommunications & postal industries, and online video-sharing platforms behave, and a proven track record of using those powers, or a different Ofcom?

And anyway - any business run by people with scruples, morals, principles, in an decent and honest way, with actual care for the interests of its customers and of wider society would not need an external regulator to tell them how to run their business.

Think you mistake BT for a non-profit. The primary duty of the people running it is to generate a return for the shareholders. Has been since privatisation. This isn't optional, it's a legal obligation.

Eventually the existing users will be gone, so that should not affect the long-term exchange closure programme

I have a building which needs a land line. It has had a landline since 1934(ish). It has no electricity so broadband is a bit of a waste, as is FTTP because no electricity by the connection = no connection.

I, as a customer, won't go away for another few years (I hope...) so I guess I will just lose POTS when the local exchange closes....

If you have an existing active PSTN-only line then the recently announced Openreach 'SOTAP for analogue' product once it reaches retail sellers (I suspect only BT will be interested given the likely low numbers) will do.

There is absolutely no change at the customers premises - the connection to existing exchange equipment, due to be shut down at the end of 2025, is moved to what is effectively a multi-port ATA and the conversion to VoIP done there rather than at the customer.

It's currently unclear to me whether "SOTAP" refers to the low-speed (1Mbps) digital service for voice-only lines, or an analogue service supplied by media gateways in the exchange.

If you have a POTS line from BT and they migrate you onto the latter, then as you say, you should be good at least until local exchange closure.

Do you have any other buildings nearby? Your long term solution may be to run a cable to another building and plug into an ATA. Or just carry a mobile phone.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

It's currently unclear to me whether "SOTAP" refers to the low-speed (1Mbps) digital service for voice-only lines, or an analogue service supplied by media gateways in the exchange.

The original SOTAP product which was proposed some time ago, in trials this year, and as of today a launched product is naked ADSL with no PSTN service, i.e. the equivalent of SOGEA being naked VDSL with no PSTN, so you have broadband service and optionally VoIP over the broadband.

The recent 'SOTAP for Analogue' product only recently came to light https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/11/openre... but it hasn't been launched yet.