LLU versus non-LLU ISP

I am currently connected via LLU, originally through Nildram, absorbed by Talk-Talk.
I intend to change ISP with two serious contenders :
1) "Be", who does have LLU presence in my exchange (Berkhamsted)
2) "Zen", who does not
I am at some 4km (crow flies) from the exchange and hence would not expect to see any significant improvement in speed via an LLU connection with "Be" (which would presumably be ADSL2+), compared to a BT ADSL Max connection (which is presumably what Zen would provide).
However, would I see a better stability on a poor line via an LLU connection, e.g. not continually resynching ?
I am not necessarily asking for advice on Be versus Zen, but the more general question of whether I would be better off on an LLU connection at a long distance from the exchange ?

Impossible to say, other than if the line is ADSL2+ now and stable then it should be under the new ISP too.
Zen will have the IP profile system from BT Wholesale, which can be a pain if the line flaps around in speed.

Thanks for that. I should have said that, at present, the line does flap around in speed and hence my question whether LLU or non-LLU would be best. Sounds from what you say that I might be safer with LLU.

If you can post your stats, we should be able to offer better advice

If only I could give meaningful stats ... they vary so much.
Currently I am getting :

Rx
Noise Margin: 8.4 dB
Connection Rate: 3776 Kbps
Line Attenuation: 52.0 dB
Power: 19.0 dBm
Max Rate: 3808 Kbps

SuperFrames: 181483
SF (CRC) Errors: 11797
Reed Solomon: 0
RS Corrected: 0
RS Un-Corrected: 0
HEC: 11399
Errored Seconds: 289642
Severe ES: 3833

Interleave Depth: 1
Bitswaps: 0

Tx
Noise Margin: 9.0 dB
Connection Rate: 192 Kbps
Line Attenuation: 27.5 dB
Power: 11.6 dBm
Max Rate: 224 Kbps

SuperFrames: 184965
SF (CRC) Errors: 1
Reed Solomon: 0
RS Corrected: 0
RS Un-Corrected: 0
HEC: 0
Errored Seconds: 0
Severe ES: 0

Interleave Depth: 1
Bitswaps: 0

(the error rates relate to a 50 min period).
The Tx sync rate very often drifts down to 64kbs

Any advice gratefully received.

That low upstream (TX) connection rate is a typical symptom of poor internal wiring.

Is there any audible noise on the line? How is everything connected up to the BT master socket? (extensions, phones, sky boxes etc.)

Thanks for that comment GeeTee .... I too am very puzzled by my low Tx rate, which I have most (but not all) of the time. I can occasionally synch all day at even Rx/Tx 4200/700 kbs (which is good for my distance from exchange) but then for no apparent reason the Tx rate wil drop to 64kbs leaving the Rx rate almost the same.

I've been round this problem till I'm exhausted with my current ISP, who merely changes my profile at each complaint ... but I believe that I have a problem in the exchange (or my overhead line where it goes through trees).

In answer to your query :
- I hear v little noise on line doing 17070/opt 2
- No change in performance if I bypass internal wiring and connect modem straight to master socket
- ditto if I connect directly to test socket (this would also bypass my iPlate faceplate)
- interestingly, lifting my phone receiver or receiving a call can, when things are bad, cause the Rx SNR margin to immediately improve by up to 5dB. Conversely, occasionally, this can also cause the ADSL connection to drop ! Before you ask it, yes, I do have my filter correctly connected, and I have changed it several times (currently using ADSL Nation). This behaviour has been suggested to me as indicating a poor connection somewhere which is improved by the higher current flow when receiver lifted.
- the Rx SNR margin plot (Routerstats) is violently jagged for much of the time
- Oh ... and I have tried changing the modem from the current DG834PN (which should be good on a long line, so I believe).

The bottom line is that my current ISP does not seem to intervene very well with BT and hence my desire to change ISP, and hence my enquiry about whether it matters whether or not I change to an ISP using LLU or using BT wholesale.

Thanks again for your comment

Symptomatic of an HR (High Resistance) fault somewhere I would say.

If you have money, or even without if you don't really use your connection in the daytime Mon-Fri, your best bet in my opinion is Be LLU vai AAISP.

That way you get one of the best broadband connections through an ISP well known to be the best problem solver.

Thanks for that RobertoS .... I hadn't heard of AAISP before, but certainly like the look of their website.

Comparisons.

Spot on with the HR Dis I'd say. The additional current supplied to the line when the receiver is lifted "blows" the fault condition off the line temporarily. Same happens when an intrusive line test is run by the CP / ISP - hence why they are so damn hard to get anyone to do anything about until they degrade to the point of complete service failure.

p.s. please don't ask me to explain the electronic theory behind the above.... I can't!

I thought you were on the right track, for initial testing, before his later post. So I wasn't contradicting you - just had more info to play with.

Thanks to both GeeTee and RobertoS.
This point about waiting until service degrades to complete collapse before you can get action is very true. My overhead line runs from the street cabinet at the bottom of my garden on a totally unnecessary excursion of some 200 extra metres via two poles (both are for my exclusive use) and through two thickets of trees in order to reach my property. Three yrs ago I had the same problem and even with a more pro-active ISP (Nildram rather than T-T) I had to wait for collapse of the voice service due to abrasion by the trees, before getting action (i.e. restringing of the line). Maybe this is my problem again now, but v diff to get an ISP to push BT OpenReach into action.
In view of my problems it looks to me that I would be in an even bigger mess if I moved away from LLU ADSL2+ to a BT wholesale product with the associated problems of auto rate adaption.
I like the look of AAISP + Be LLU, but they really are pricey, so am still pondrring what to do...... other than just sit and wait for total collapse of service !!
Thanks again

In reply to a post by mje_uk:

...
I like the look of AAISP + Be LLU, but they really are pricey, so am still pondrring what to do...... other than just sit and wait for total collapse of service !!
Thanks again

Forget all about BE. The service is currently having serious congestion issues. Perhaps a C&W reseller would suit you better if you must have LLU and your exchange has C&W on it.

No, my exchange (SMBK) has no C&W presence and I feel that I need to focus on LLU operaters because of the instability of my long line.
Thanks for that, anyway

Are they?

i've not noticed.

Also

BE value would probably suit you well.

Edited by epyon (Sun 21-Aug-11 15:26:42)

Thanks epyon :
<BE value would probably suit you well.>
Yes ..... from the point of view of providing LLU/ADSL2+ at reasonable cost at my exchange, that seems like a good bet (although I would lose my fixed IP address, but I am prepared to manage without).
The real problem is to find an ISP prepared to pressurise BT into sorting out my flaky line. That's my main reason for despair with my present ISP (the dreaded Talk-Talk) who merely seem interested in selling me alternative packages to the Nildram one which they have taken over/rubbished.
Thanks again

What makes you think you have a flaky line?

In reply to a post by epyon:

Are they?

i've not noticed.

Also

BE value would probably suit you well.

Yes they are
http://beusergroup.co.uk/?id=769

It will suit him/her if they do not mind a congested service. Personally im guessing they do not want that.

In reply to a post by mje_uk:

No, my exchange (SMBK) has no C&W presence and I feel that I need to focus on LLU operaters because of the instability of my long line.
Thanks for that, anyway

Only other alternative looking at your exchange i would consider if you are dead set on LLU is maybe Sky. Some swear by them some swear at them.

Hello Batboy,
<What makes you think you have a flaky line? >
My previous posts on this subject talk about :
- Rather high error rate
- Violently jagged SNR margin (Rx only) at times, and often triggered by a phone call
- Very low Tx sync rate (64k) most of the time even when Rx is nearly 4meg, although occasionally the line will sync all day at 4m/600k Rx/Tx
- Lifting phone receiver or receiving (but not necessarily answering) a call causes Rx SNR margin to improve by ~5dB, usually to slump back after ~10 mins
- Previous history of line with abrasion by trees

Could still be a flaky something or other at the exchange I suppose, rather than the line itself, (there was an intervention by BT on the voice side a month or two ago to fix a loss of ring-out signal). However all symptoms seem to suggest that I need an ISP with the willpower to kick BT into action.

Regards

I've not noticed either

Now fixed as shown by the f8lure graphs

In reply to a post by mje_uk:

Hello Batboy,
<What makes you think you have a flaky line? >
My previous posts on this subject talk about :
- Rather high error rate
- Violently jagged SNR margin (Rx only) at times, and often triggered by a phone call
- Very low Tx sync rate (64k) most of the time even when Rx is nearly 4meg, although occasionally the line will sync all day at 4m/600k Rx/Tx
- Lifting phone receiver or receiving (but not necessarily answering) a call causes Rx SNR margin to improve by ~5dB, usually to slump back after ~10 mins
- Previous history of line with abrasion by trees

Could still be a flaky something or other at the exchange I suppose, rather than the line itself, (there was an intervention by BT on the voice side a month or two ago to fix a loss of ring-out signal). However all symptoms seem to suggest that I need an ISP with the willpower to kick BT into action.

Regards

How did you rule out your router and internal phone wiring?

Not fixed at all, still various complaints in BEs private forums.

Though to be honest i don't care, getting my FTTC tomorrow and will be rid of the BE shambles. The regular snake oil like peddlers of the product are welcome to it

Id advise the OP to think very carefully especially as they currently have issues.

If they are reading still i suggest they ask there self do you want to add to the issues you already have?

If so go right ahead and listen to the BE supporters (see their posting history they wont have a word spoken against them) and sign right up.

Me im gone like the the other 16,000 in the first quarter of this year that have jumped the sinking BE ship LOL

Hello BatBoy,
<How did you rule out your router and internal phone wiring? >
Cos earlier on in this discussion you will see that I have eliminated both of these.
Regards

In reply to a post by mje_uk:

Hello BatBoy,
<How did you rule out your router and internal phone wiring? >
Cos earlier on in this discussion you will see that I have eliminated both of these.
Regards

Ah yes, I searched for "test"...

Did you take your line stats from the test socket?

Hello BatBoy,
<Did you take your line stats from the test socket? >
No ... not the ones in my post ... BUT .... it makes no difference ... I have looked at both.
Regards

In reply to a post by mje_uk:

Hello BatBoy,
<Did you take your line stats from the test socket? >
No ... not the ones in my post ... BUT .... it makes no difference ... I have looked at both.
Regards

Odd.

Did you try another router?

Hello Batboy,
<Did you try another router? >
I've already replied yes to this one, see below ....
<How did you rule out your router and internal phone wiring? >
Cos earlier on in this discussion you will see that I have eliminated both of these.
Regards

In reply to a post by mje_uk:

Hello Batboy,
<Did you try another router? >
I've already replied yes to this one, see below ....
<How did you rule out your router and internal phone wiring? >
Cos earlier on in this discussion you will see that I have eliminated both of these.
Regards

Ah yes, spotted that too

I would still like to see line stats from the router connected to the test socket and nothing else.

But say you have got a line fault, you'll need Openreach to sort it out.

Hello Batboy,
<But say you have got a line fault, you'll need Openreach to sort it out>
Precisely !!!!! But one cannot kick BTOpenReach directly about a broadband problem .... one has to proceed through ones ISP and who are in general more inclined to fob you off with a profile change or some such excuse rather than involve BTOR at a cost. .

Sign up to Be as you have been preached to and see what happens LOL

.......... http://aaisp.net.uk/broadband-trial.html

As previously suggested AAISP could be worth a try if you are convinced the problem is with the line itself and not any other issues.

I'd let the evidence and facts speak for themselves and not someone who has a bee in their bonnet with regards to BE

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Not fixed at all, still various complaints in BEs private forums.

Though to be honest i don't care, getting my FTTC tomorrow and will be rid of the BE shambles. The regular snake oil like peddlers of the product are welcome to it

Id advise the OP to think very carefully especially as they currently have issues.

If they are reading still i suggest they ask there self do you want to add to the issues you already have?

If so go right ahead and listen to the BE supporters (see their posting history they wont have a word spoken against them) and sign right up.

Me im gone like the the other 16,000 in the first quarter of this year that have jumped the sinking BE ship LOL

Ah, so it is probably nonBEliever. The style was somewhat reminiscent, but the case even weaker due to anonymity.

We seem to have drifted away from the original subject of whether, with a long line from the exchange and subject to other problems causing it to flap around, one is better off with an LLU ADSL2+ type connection, or one from BT Wholesale.
My distillation from the advice so far is that the former is probably preferable, not because it offers higher speed but because it should resync less frequently. (Pls correct me if I have got the wrong mesage here)

In addition to this is the separate question of why the line flaps around and here we have stumbled into the very important structural problem of why ISPs are not keen to chase BT

Regards

Who else would post with such a fundamental and one sided hatred of BE

I know of 2 cases this week with similar HR dis faults on BE

One is still undergoing troubleshooting by BE and the other BE arranged an Openreach engineer visit and the problem has been fixed

With no DLM on BE, it's much easier to control the line if there are problems

It isn't that LLU should resync less frequently. It is that the resync has no longer term effects, in that as soon as you do a resync yourself, when the cause is absent, the throughput immediately rises to the level for the new connection speed.

It is however the case that the BT DLM, which has always been the biggest technical problem with their service, has been revised on many 21CN (WBC) exchanges, and is now far more responsive wrt IP Profile.

So on those exchanges the difference is less than it used to be. The treatment of the noise margin on non-LLU still seems just as aggressive.

Customer support on non-LLU ISPs is highly dependent on which you choose, and the same applies on LLU.

Edit - typo.

Edited by RobertoS (Sun 21-Aug-11 18:36:58)

In reply to a post by nredwood:

I'd let the evidence and facts speak for themselves and not someone who has a bee in their bonnet with regards to BE

Oh no not more "facts" from your wheeze hole LMAO

In reply to a post by mje_uk:

We seem to have drifted away from the original subject of whether, with a long line from the exchange and subject to other problems causing it to flap around, one is better off with an LLU ADSL2+ type connection, or one from BT Wholesale.
My distillation from the advice so far is that the former is probably preferable, not because it offers higher speed but because it should resync less frequently. (Pls correct me if I have got the wrong mesage here)

In addition to this is the separate question of why the line flaps around and here we have stumbled into the very important structural problem of why ISPs are not keen to chase BT

Regards

As stated go sign up to BE, and enjoy

Thanks RobertoS for that clarification, I think that sums it up.
I am going to give the dreaded Talk-Talk another go and risk high blood pressure. Assuming that gets me nowhere other than another twiddle of my "profile", I would like to migrate to AAISP, but that is not financially realistic, hence I guess I'll give Be a try.
Thanks again

You really are an extremely unpleasant individual

I'm prepared to be corrected if I'm wrong but I believe that there is no long term contract with A&A, just one month's notice would be required when leaving.

Thanks burakkucat,

<there is no long term contract with A&A, just one month's notice>

er .... quite ... that had occured to me too ! 30 days notice from date of termination, I think. Mmm !

Regards

So join A&A, make use of them to get your line's infrastructure fixed and then move on?

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

So join A&A, make use of them to get your line's infrastructure fixed and then move on?

Does the AAISP guarantee apply to BE-based lines?

Technically, no
http://aa.net.uk/broadband-trial.html

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Does the AAISP guarantee apply to BE-based lines?

No doubt you will give me your opinion.

Personally, I'm not bothered one way or the other. My only concern is to give the OP a pointer as to how he can get the defect(s) of his current infrastructure resolved. When the metallic path problem is fixed, he could then, if he so desires, migrate to Be.

Thank you for your interest in what I have posted. I do not wish to join any debate about the merits (or otherwise) of Be because, quite simply, I have no experience of that provider.

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Does the AAISP guarantee apply to BE-based lines?

No doubt you will give me your opinion.

Personally, I'm not bothered one way or the other. My only concern is to give the OP a pointer as to how he can get the defect(s) of his current infrastructure resolved. When the metallic path problem is fixed, he could then, if he so desires, migrate to Be.

Thank you for your interest in what I have posted. I do not wish to join any debate about the merits (or otherwise) of Be because, quite simply, I have no experience of that provider.

Somebody has already answered and it appears your advice was faulty.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Somebody has already answered and it appears your advice was faulty.

So now you have decided to reduce Nikki Redwood to "somebody".

Here is some more advice for you:

(1) Go back to the first, the opening post of this thread and re-read it. You will then, hopefully, see that the OP is not with Be but currently with another LLU CP, TalkTalk. Please do not bother waffling on about needing to do a RTD before joining A&A. That is well known.

(2) Remember that I will not tolerate any of your meddling or attempts to become the focus of this current thread. In similar circumstances, I have requested that your behaviour is observed and that action should be taken if you "cross the line". I am prepared to do the same, once again.

(3) Act in a sensible, logical and knowledgeable fashion -- as I know you can -- and we will be able to happily co-exist. Unfortunately you are prone to being your own worst enemy.

Post as much as you like -- or dare -- in this thread. From this point on, you will not elicit any further response from me. However I will continue to monitor this thread.

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Somebody has already answered and it appears your advice was faulty.

So now you have decided to reduce Nikki Redwood to "somebody".

Here is some more advice for you:

I don't need your advice, it's invariably wrong.

Nicola or Nic but never Nikki or Nicky

In reply to a post by nredwood:

Nicola or Nic but never Nikki or Nicky

My apologies, Ma'am.

In reply to a post by burakkucat:

In reply to a post by nredwood:

Nicola or Nic but never Nikki or Nicky

My apologies, Ma'am.

Feel free to apologise to the OP also.

Apology accepted

Unfortunately expecting the resident troll to read or comprehend anything is wishfful at the best. Batboy would not know how to read or make any sense.

You are part of anonymous group and as such will be reported to the police.

Well .... after many calls to Talk-Talk they say that all they can do is twiddle my line parameters, and are unable to activate BT to do anything .... that I have to do myself. Twiddling my line parameters does not give me a workable service ... I can only sync when making a phone call now. Talk-Talk maintain that I must have a line problem (not surprisingly) about which they can do nothing. Of course, were I to get my voice service from them, then that would be different !
I thought that ISPs rented facilities from BT which, if they didn't work, they should call BT on. I am quite sure that the BT engineer from Mumbai will tell me that "you have a very excellent line Sir" and I will get no action ... I have been here before. Is the relationship between BT and ISPS always like this, or is it just T-T ?

Looks as if my only way out is to pay £50/month to AAISP .... what a nonsense this fragmentation of service between several suppliers with compartmentalised responsibilities is. !!

OK! Let's look at this another way:

- you have a High Resistance Fault;
- TT are being hopeless. (The rights and wrongs of that are another matter, though technically I believe it is up to them to get it sorted);
- AAISP with Be is too expensive for you;
- you are looking at LLU to solve the symptom, not the cause.

How much downloading do you do per month?

There are many ISPs who provide similar packages to Zen, and who will get your fault fixed. You will find them almost certainly better than TT in day-to-day use as well.

My first recommendation would be Plusnet, which comes on a monthly contract, and whose reps on here are very good. Telephone support is less so. See also their traffic management though.

I think they would get your line sorted out, and you can then see how things go. It is easy to move from them to Zen, IDNet, vivaciti, Be themselves or wherever, but as a normal user ISP Plusnet has a lot going for it.

Edit - layout tweak.

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 23-Aug-11 11:06:05)

Thank you very much indeed for that RobertoS

Looks like I have to free myself from T-T whatever happens, and so the problem is to find an ISP willing and competent to take over a bum line.

<You are looking at LLU to solve the symptom, not the cause>
Not sure I understand that. Do you mean that, as I already have a problem somewhere or other which is better tolerated on LLU than BT Wholesale, I should first get the problem fixed by an LLU provider and then it doesn't matter whether I then migrate from there to another LLU ISP or not ?

How much downloading ?
I am uncertain now, because T-T don't give you any data and I do not collect any.
Before T-T swallowed Nildram I operated fairly comfortably within their 30Gb/mnth ceiling with carry-over. Put another way, I listen to internet radio "all" of the time, surf/email say 4 or 5hrs/day every day, iPlayer TV perhaps a couple of hours/ month (when the line is stable enough !), relatively little other downloading, no gaming). Thus the 60Mb of PlusNet Extra would be fine.

<My first recommendation would be Plusnet>
Getting lost here again, I'm afraid - I must have misunderstood something. SamKnows says that PlusNet do not have an LLU presence on my exchange. Are you suggesting that (although non-LLU) PlusNet would still be best to sort my line out .... and would do better than say Zen (non-LLU) or Be (LLU) ?

I note that Zen is pricey, but not as stratospheric as AAISP. I think say £25/month is the most that I would feel happy paying .... Broadband only that is ... plus line rental from BT.

<See also their traffic management though>
Looks OK to me except the 2Mb/s on iPlayer TV is not satisfactory

Which leaves me wondering whether I can really go to PlusNet (or anyone other than a premium ISP such as AAISP), saying that I have a bum line, please take me on ? Presumably, I should check that _before_ getting a MAC key from T-T (which will doubtless be yet another struggle).

Very grateful for your advice .....

Nearly but not quite .

The sympton is that the line is very unstable. Moving to LLU would make that less of a nuisance but probably wouldn't solve it. The only situation where it would solve it would be if the trouble was on the line card you are connected to at the exchange, which (not being an engineer) I don't think causes HR faults.

Plusnet is not LLU. I'm saying they are a risk-free move and are as likely as anyone except AAISP to get the line fixed, as long as you get onto one of their reps on here.

From there you can stay or move, depending how you find the iPlayer experience with them.

As well as Plusnet, yes Zen is a good option.

If we rule out the LLU for now, as in a way that is a red herring, then AAISP on their BT Wholesale service are quite a bit cheaper than their Be service, and again only a monthly contract. Their line monitoring is brilliant, and is how they are often able to solve problems such as yours.

The constant internet radio may use a fair bit of the daytime allowance on AAISP though

I would request your MAC from TT straight away, then almost toss up between those three. AAISP best for fixing the line, Zen good and cheaper, Plusnet cheap and better than many for fixing it. Only you can decide between them, but whichever you go for you are not tied in.

If you feel you want to discuss the problem first with them, AAISP will happily do that as you can see from their website. I expect Zen would do so also, but I don't know. For Plusnet I would not ring them, I would PM bpullen on these forums and perhaps even point him to this thread, particularly today's posts.

Thank you RobertoS.

I follow your analysis with just the comment that I am _already_ on LLU ADSL2+ with TT.
If I moved away from that to BT W and assuming that the problem is somewhere on the Cu line (rather than card in the DSLAM or whatever), then things would be even worse than at present, until the line was fixed..... which I suppose is the whole point of the exercise anyway !
(At present I can usually get the line to sync and run ADSL2+ by making a longish phone call first !).

Thanks again, I will ponder which ISP to move to, and report any interesting problems with getting a MAC from TT

PS ...sorry I'm a newbie ... what is a PM ?

Private Message. See at the top left of My Home.

My Home is also an excellent "Home Page" for the forums, as you can set up the list of forums you are mainly interested in, and can also add occasional "Favorite threads".

Much easier to handle than the full forum list.

Yes, I'd forgotten you are on TT LLU.

That raises a potential nasty. Do you pay line rental to them as well, so it is probably full LLU?

Migrating from that is less simple than if the phone is with someone else. Does the number work in other ISP's checkers?

No ... I get LLU broadband only from TT (line rental with BT).
I have been told by Be that my LLU card is "untagged" (whatever that means) so I should be able to move easily (subject to TT awkwardness of course)
The phone number works on all checkers that I have tried

Thus moving to PlusNet or Zen or AAISP (21CN) means a move from LLU to ordinary 21CN, hence my comment about possibly making the situation even less pleasant until the line problem is sorted.
I guess it's a situation of "no pain = no gain" !

Thanks again

Yep .

On many 21CN (WBC) exchanges the IP Profiling system has been greatly improved. So if you are lucky things won't be as bad as they were. Noise margin could still be tricky.

You can get TalkTalk to sanction work by BT but you will never get any where with TalkTalk over the phone , you need to register on the TalkTalk members forum .

Even so TalkTalk are a budget ISP and very slow with support issues that require BT to get involved .

I would go with AAISP as they seem to be very good at fixing line faults and not to a budget ISP that by definition will have budget support IMHO .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Plusnet is not LLU. I'm saying they are a risk-free move and are as likely as anyone except AAISP to get the line fixed, as long as you get onto one of their reps on here.

Happy to see this through to resolution if you do decide to move to us.

Kind rgds,