Sky to Vivaciti?

Hi, I am currently on Sky Unlimited broadband. I used to be on Be and with their package was able to control SNR and get about 2Mb/s more downstream and 300Kb/s more upstream than I get on Sky (and I am on the gamer profile on Sky). Be also had much more control. I moved to Sky to try out Anytime+ - well, been there, done that and it was all it wasn't cracked up to be.

So, my year is up. I am not using Anytime+ and want to get the extra bit of speed out of my line.

I am obviously on a Be exchange and have been looking at the Vivaciti Unlimited package (the up to 12Mb/s one because my line maxes out at almost exactly 12Mb/s).

Is this a better option than Be? My exchange was announced for FTTC in the last batch and is scheduled (supposedly) to get it by the end of this year so I don't want to be long term tied in to an ISP. Are Vivaciti as good as people say? Is there anyone else I should consider (I want LLU and the Be network works well). Do Vivaciti provide a router or require you to use theirs? I have a decent router already so don't need an ISP supplied one.

Anything else I am missing?

Thanks.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Hi, I am currently on Sky Unlimited broadband. I used to be on Be and with their package was able to control SNR and get about 2Mb/s more downstream and 300Kb/s more upstream than I get on Sky (and I am on the gamer profile on Sky). Be also had much more control. I moved to Sky to try out Anytime+ - well, been there, done that and it was all it wasn't cracked up to be.

So, my year is up. I am not using Anytime+ and want to get the extra bit of speed out of my line.

I am obviously on a Be exchange and have been looking at the Vivaciti Unlimited package (the up to 12Mb/s one because my line maxes out at almost exactly 12Mb/s).

Is this a better option than Be? My exchange was announced for FTTC in the last batch and is scheduled (supposedly) to get it by the end of this year so I don't want to be long term tied in to an ISP. Are Vivaciti as good as people say? Is there anyone else I should consider (I want LLU and the Be network works well). Do Vivaciti provide a router or require you to use theirs? I have a decent router already so don't need an ISP supplied one.

Anything else I am missing?

Thanks.

Are you unbundled o( FMPF) or ADSL only(SMPF) with sky ? as that will make a big difference for migrating away from sky,
BTW you can have both phone & ADSL with sky and still be (SMPF) llu, something you need to find out,
If you are only partial LLU'd (SMPF) then all that is required is a valid MAC code from sky,If you are Full LLU with sky ,then if you want to use the existing line, it would need to be returned to btwholesale, do this by requesting a return to donor from bt,

The existing sky services on that line would be ceased at the time it was swapped back over,then you would have to wait until the bt data base got updated so All (SMPF) or btwholesale ISP's could place an order on that line,

this can sometimes take upto 2 weeks, other alternative would be order a new line from one of many wholesale line providers,inc( bt retail) basically shop around for a deal that best suits you,
then order adsl from vivaciti on that line, and then unless you wanted a backup cease the sky, but you would loose your existing telephone number doing it that way

Sorry, should have said. I only have broadband with Sky (so partial LLU) and have requested my MAC code. So, no issues with moving away.

Just wanted any info on Vivaciti and whether they are a good option (ie a better option than going to Be direct).

Xilo also do BE Wholesale

In reply to a post by ian72:

Sorry, should have said. I only have broadband with Sky (so partial LLU) and have requested my MAC code. So, no issues with moving away.

Just wanted any info on Vivaciti and whether they are a good option (ie a better option than going to Be direct).

Well by going with vivaciti or any of the other ISP selling the BE wholesale service ,
You will get support from that isp instead of BE support, so uk based support instead of overseas based, also the peering and routing will be vivaciti's and not BE retail,
So unlikely to ever see any tsunami's that a lot of BE retail customers saw last year.
Along with most other issues that can/do affect BE retail customers

I'm under no illusion's that BE retail /o2 network is run at near capacity in some areas /exchanges,

But to how good vivaciti's support is, i can't say but i would doubt that it would be worse than BE retail,
One of the main things as far as I'm concerned is what is their stance on potential line faults, and should there be issues that are within the isp's network or peering partners how long they take to fix the problem first time around,

I'm sure someone can clarify on this

Also as with most Resellers /Wholesalers there is no nanny state IWF filtering , that is renowned for not being correctly implemented by most of the main retail isp's

I'm not saying that BE retail give bad support but there is definitely room for improvement My opinion based on my findings

In reply to a post by nredwood:

Xilo also do BE Wholesale

As do several other resellers , Xilo charge £40 to migrate in ,Vivaciti is free currently, then you have AAISP they put a usage cap on it , there are also others too

Not as many cheaper than Be Retail though

In reply to a post by nredwood:

Not as many cheaper than Be Retail though

Maybe not, but there are at least 2 so far that are,We could well see more in the near future, now that FTTC/P is being rolled out , but who knows ?

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

In reply to a post by ian72:

Sorry, should have said. I only have broadband with Sky (so partial LLU) and have requested my MAC code. So, no issues with moving away.

Just wanted any info on Vivaciti and whether they are a good option (ie a better option than going to Be direct).

Well by going with vivaciti or any of the other ISP selling the BE wholesale service ,
You will get support from that isp instead of BE support, so uk based support instead of overseas based, also the peering and routing will be vivaciti's and not BE retail,

Sadly, you're confused. Vivaciti are only a reseller not an ISP - they don't have a forum here for example, just the resellers forum.

I think your logic is a bit floored there, I see a forum on here for the post office!

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

In reply to a post by ian72:

Sorry, should have said. I only have broadband with Sky (so partial LLU) and have requested my MAC code. So, no issues with moving away.

Just wanted any info on Vivaciti and whether they are a good option (ie a better option than going to Be direct).

Well by going with vivaciti or any of the other ISP selling the BE wholesale service ,
You will get support from that isp instead of BE support, so uk based support instead of overseas based, also the peering and routing will be vivaciti's and not BE retail,

Sadly, you're confused. Vivaciti are only a reseller not an ISP - they don't have a forum here for example, just the resellers forum.

So what about all the ISPs that just wholesale the BT product? Are they not actually ISPs? Vivaciti is actually providing a full ISP service using a number of different providers from what I can see so why do you say they aren't an ISP?

I suspect they don't have a forum because they are relatively small and therefore there wouldn't be enough individual posts to warrant a forum (some ISP forums have been removed in the past because of inactivity, doesn't mean they aren't an ISP anymore).

Before WBC the criterion was that the "ISP" had its own BT Central(s) or Central Plus(es). This was also before the Post Office and Vodaphone started on BT Wholesale White Label. Vodaphone now having dropped out, or imminently so.

For whatever reason, the powers that be here added a forum for the Post Office after a while, and Orange retains its even though it has become White Label.

Straight resellers never had ISP rating here and still don't, though there has often been discussion with the staff. The thing is that (nearly?) all were only reselling Entanet. Which does have a forum, that I consider is now unnecessary - given the introduction a while ago of the Resellers one for the reasons following.

I think now that we have a number of sophisticated resellers each offering a wide range of products from several providers they should qualify as ISPs on this site. They always did from the perspective of the man-in-the-street. The most commonly discussed here being vivaciti, ADSL24 and xilo/uno.

We even have acknowledged ISPs doing reselling, for example AAISP. And the likes of ukfsn which I would still classify as a reseller.

DO we even know whether or not the three I gave as examples want their own forum here, rather than the resellers one? I can see reasons why the may not. Don't forget, the presence of any ISP forum here is at the request of the ISP. There are many not represented.

Seb and John have several times said the subject is under review. It can't be simple.

In reply to a post by ian72:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

Well by going with vivaciti or any of the other ISP selling the BE wholesale service ,
You will get support from that isp instead of BE support, so uk based support instead of overseas based, also the peering and routing will be vivaciti's and not BE retail,

Sadly, you're confused. Vivaciti are only a reseller not an ISP - they don't have a forum here for example, just the resellers forum.

So what about all the ISPs that just wholesale the BT product? Are they not actually ISPs? Vivaciti is actually providing a full ISP service using a number of different providers from what I can see so why do you say they aren't an ISP?

I suspect they don't have a forum because they are relatively small and therefore there wouldn't be enough individual posts to warrant a forum (some ISP forums have been removed in the past because of inactivity, doesn't mean they aren't an ISP anymore).

Vivaciti Does have a forum it's own Vivaciti forums They i belive have their own network too, something that is required by Be wholesale, if they are a wholesaler, a reseller doesn't need it's own network, info on Be Wholesale

In reference to beusergroup.co.uk/technotes/index.php?title=Resellers#Becoming_a_Re...:

Resellers take the BE service and sell it, they provide their own support and end user hardware but everything else is provided by BE (IP space, DNS, DHCP services etc.)
Control over IP Addressing: No
Control over transit: No
Control of DSLAM port: Yes
API Access: No
Existing Infrastructure Required: No
-------------------------------------------


Wholesalers L2TP or PPP link into the BE network and have control over their own IP space. End users use PPPoE or PPPoA and customer ports in exchanges do not use the BE network other than to transverse internally to the POP of the wholesaler.
Control over IP Addressing: Yes
Control over transit: Yes
Control of DSLAM port: Yes
API Access: Yes
Existing Infrastructure Required: Yes

Which would make most who offer Be wholsale Wholsalers not resellers of the Be products So as IP adresses Full control of the dlsam Makes them an isp(Virtual ISP ) not just a reseeler , some of them will be partners of companies like this,pseudonetworks who appear to rent their network's to the reseller , unless they deal direct with BE wholsale if that is possible or not i'm not sure

On another note BeWholesale fears 2012 olympic games could crash office broadband networks
Sound a bit ominus don't it But if they think that their wholsale service will take a knock, i wouldn't like to be an o2 or Be retail customer during the olympics , one solution would be for it not to be available via streaming , why any sporting event should be allowed to cause kaos online i don't know ,

On another note BeWholesale fears 2012 olympic games could crash office broadband networks
Sound a bit ominus don't it .

This applies to nearly all the well-know ISPs. You may not remember the last Olympics, and more recently the Commonwealth Games held in Manchester. Most ground almost to a halt - even a few complaints of getting only around 500kbps from Zen customers.

But if they think that their wholsale service will take a knock, i wouldn't like to be an o2 or Be retail customer during the olympics , one solution would be for it not to be available via streaming , why any sporting event should be allowed to cause kaos online i don't know ,

It's just Be making the point. Note that part of what you link to is warning their resellers to have adequate provision, and the way I read it the other part is referring to the end user businesses where all the employess will be streaming the stuff and could crash their internal LANs.

They may even be wanting to be compared to what happens to the big boys like BT, Sky and TalkTalk, and premium ISPs like Zen, AAISP, Timico, IDNet and many smaller ones that are rarley heard of here.

This is indicated by "However just as important are the benefits of a fixed pricing model, together with unlimited usage, allowing businesses to control their Internet spend and avoid any additional expense when the Games are all over", as on many ISPs there could be huge excess usage charges to SOHO and large business users.

On Newnet I got a reduction to about 40% of IP Profile, on O2 LLU I didn't notice anything significant.

Edit - typo.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 13-Jan-12 13:44:08)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

On another note BeWholesale fears 2012 olympic games could crash office broadband networks
Sound a bit ominus don't it .

This applies to nearly all the well-know ISPs. You may not remember the last Olympics, and more recently the Commonwealth Games held in Manchester. Most ground almost to a halt - even a few complaints of getting only around 500kbps from Zen customers.

But if they think that their wholsale service will take a knock, i wouldn't like to be an o2 or Be retail customer during the olympics , one solution would be for it not to be available via streaming , why any sporting event should be allowed to cause kaos online i don't know ,

It's just Be making the point. Note that part of what you link to is warning their resellers to have adequate provision, and the way I read it the other part is referring to the end user businesses where all the employess will be streaming the stuff and could crash their internal LANs.

They may even be wanting to be compared to what happens to the big boys like BT, Sky and TalkTalk, and premium ISPs like Zen, AAISP, Timico, IDNet and many smaller ones that are rarley heard of here.

This is indicated by "However just as important are the benefits of a fixed pricing model, together with unlimited usage, allowing businesses to control their Internet spend and avoid any additional expense when the Games are all over", as on many ISPs there could be huge excess usage charges to SOHO and large business users.

On Newnet I got a reduction to about 40% of IP Profile, on O2 LLU I didn't notice anything significant.

Edit - typo.

I didn't notice anything on my old easynet connection either,But if that will be case this time around with be retail and it's weak point, previous ( peering capacity ) which may not be able to handle the extra demand, unless they increase it before hand, and monitor things more closely so they can react quicker should further capacity be required,

But if that will be case this time around with be retail and it's weak point, previous ( peering capacity ) which may not be able to handle the extra demand, unless they increase it before hand, and monitor things more closely so they can react quicker should further capacity be required

That's the point I'm making.

I think they are saying their new network should be up and running by then and that they will not have a problem on the retail side, but some end users' LANs could crash.

Also the Be resellers are all on different contracts. Some I expect go through the Be network and may need to have extra bandwidth in place on it, (ie rent more), others only go into the Be MSAN/DSLAM from the end user and then out to someone else's backhaul and onward routers. These latter would need to make sure they had sufficient in place to satisfy the demand, and Be will want to ensure that in both cases, and any other variations, they do arrange this as otherwise the end users who know they are on resold Be will think it is Be's fault, when it isn't.

There's also the case of resellers of Be who also resell some other service, the two obvious wholesalers being TT and C & W, with similarly different setups. The ones splitting out at the exchange MSANs from a combination of these will really need to prepare capacity availability.

So overall I'm agreeing with you about the underlying problem, but I don't think the Be network itself is expected by Be to have significant issues.

I didn't notice anything on my old easynet connection either

Via UKOnline by any chance!

No problems noticed during the World Cup, whereas it was noticed on other ISP's including BT who have a much larger infrastructure than BE

I worked for a charity that were classed as a service provider with BT Wholesale (and we had access to the BT Wholesale hotline for service providers)

This was simply because we had our own RADIUS server

In reply to a post by nredwood:

I didn't notice anything on my old easynet connection either

Via UKOnline by any chance!

For memory i think the isp was easynet, As was a buisness connection not sure as to what product or cost,but it had a good upload speed,

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

last Olympics, and more recently the Commonwealth Games held in Manchester.

More recently?

Last Olympics : 2008
Manchester CW games : 2002

In reply to a post by vivaciti:

I think your logic is a bit floored there, I see a forum on here for the post office!

Funny I guess you intended the pun seeing how you are based in a carpet shop?

The point is, you don't have a forum here because you don't qualify - the Post Office obviously do.

If you think you deserve your own space, take it up with the site owners.

Based in a carpet shop? We are not based in a carpet shop! You clearly don't have all the information you think you do!

So you didn't intend the pun?

>>They i belive have their own network too

My hunch is that the referral operators that market on ThinkBroadband don't have their own network and don't have a relationship with Telefonica but go via another firm, like Daisy or suchlike

Not sure this is the case with Vivaciti or Xilo and certainly isn't the case with A&A

Although, Be do have a partnership with Daisy, but that's partly due to other plans on the Be Wholesale side of things

In reply to a post by JonRennie:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

last Olympics, and more recently the Commonwealth Games held in Manchester.

More recently?

Last Olympics : 2008
Manchester CW games : 2002

Ah, being a yoga devotee I often type whilst standing on my head, so reverse the two citations.

More seriously, my addled brain slipped Manchester in because that's where I live and nowhere else counts. I meant the latest, 2010 in India.

In reply to a post by nredwood:

Not sure this is the case with Vivaciti or Xilo and certainly isn't the case with A&A

Although, Be do have a partnership with Daisy, but that's partly due to other plans on the Be Wholesale side of things

It is definitely the case with Vivaciti and Xilo - they resell Daisy's Be Wholesale product.

Which makes Vivaciti and Xilo et al fundamentally different to A&A. A&A are most certainly not resellers contrary to another post in this thread.

It also makes them fundamentally different to the Post Office and Orange. Lines become blurred, but neither the Post Office or Orange are what I would classify as resellers. Even on a white label managed BT wholesale service, they buy their own dedicated virtual path capacity in both major legs (they can even be different capacities!) and are in direct control and purchase of QoS policies, line profile policies etc, even though it is all BTw end-to-end. Contrast this with Vivaciti and Xilo et al who have no direct control of the product they re-sell from an intermediary and which they must share with other re-sellers.

For the end user, the quality of the chain is far more important than the structure however.

All of these are ISPs - an ISP is whoever the end user pays their money to or has their contract with. Someone tried to imply Daisy Wholesale are the ISP and not Vivaciti - while I get the distinction, I would say Daisy Wholesale are not an ISP whereas Vivaciti are.

In reply to a post by vimto_girl:

All of these are ISPs - an ISP is whoever the end user pays their money to or has their contract with. Someone tried to imply Daisy Wholesale are the ISP and not Vivaciti - while I get the distinction, I would say Daisy Wholesale are not an ISP whereas Vivaciti are.

I disagree, they are Resellers not ISPs - that's why they're in the Resellers forum.
If you call support, they will contact the ISP on your behalf - support is dependent on their priority, not yours.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

I disagree, they are Resellers not ISPs - that's why they're in the Resellers forum. If you call support, they will contact the ISP on your behalf - support is dependent on their priority, not yours.

A reseller is by definition an ISP. Daisy Wholesale by definition are not an ISP.

Support do not necessarily need to contact an intermediary - it depends what support they are giving you. Any ISP supplying ADSL is ultimately dependant on another chain somewhere. Even on an LLU end-to-end product, you have to join the Openreach queue. And whatever system and access Daisy has for resellers is super-fast I can assure you, things are done before you even have a response from for example Be Retail.

It makes perfect sense that on the TBB forums, Vivaciti are in the ISP section of the forum, under the sub-forum Resellers and other Providers with the description "For discussion about DSL providers who are not listed on their own". So please stop bleating on, you only ever make yourself look stupid and desperate.

You should have just stuck to staying Vivaciti do not perform their own routing and peering, but instead they resell Daisy Wholesale who in turn perform that to a far higher standard than Be retail. This would be the straight up truth.

If you want to say that, say it. You don't have to seek my permission. These discussion forums are for people to post their own opinion. They don't have to bow to other's wishes, however hysterical.

Edited by deleted (Sat 14-Jan-12 12:55:04)

Sorry, just to correct you, we do not resell services from BE Wholesale through Daisy.

In reply to a post by vivaciti:

Sorry, just to correct you, we do not resell services from BE Wholesale through Daisy.

Apologies for the mistake.

Why don't you tell us who you do resell through? Would you mind breaking this down for all your packages? Are any of them Daisy?

You are very evasive about this, I contacted you as a potential customer not long ago to make sense and differentiate your very confusing packages. It was very hard to get an answer even about which LLU presence corresponded to which package, although it eventually came. As to who the reseller provider was, you plain refused to answer this.

So in my defence, I just made my own conclusions as best I could. Other ISPs such as Xilo have just introduced Be packages through Daisy, on the back of their deal with Be Wholesale. You have also just introduced your Be package at the same time and were contributing to the thread discussing Xilo offering Be through Daisy, saying your packages would be coming soon too. So it made sense. Guess it is coincidental timing.

You speak seeming very knowledgably about how ISPs run their businesses, but where do you get your facts from? You are dabbling in company Commercial in Confidence matters that you would not be privy to. So what reliance can we place in your pronouncements?

Or, as you say, have you jumped to your own conclusions?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

You speak seeming very knowledgably about how ISPs run their businesses, but where do you get your facts from? You are dabbling in company Commercial in Confidence matters that you would not be privy to. So what reliance can we place in your pronouncements?

Or, as you say, have you jumped to your own conclusions?

Huh? Like what exactly?!

Apart from the Vivaciti details (which I didn't exactly jump to as you can see!), everything else I say is confirmed fact, and/or open knowledge, and isn't exactly controversial or special information? They are quite broad points with no sensitive information, made to differentiate the structure of how ISPs operate.

What exactly do you have doubts about?

In reply to a post by RandomJointer:

...the referral operators that market on ThinkBroadband...

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear... don't you ever learn?