What speed with LLU provider.

Hi, my contract with BT is up and looking to renew or change provider. The only LLU provider at my exchange in Newtownstewart is Talk Talk. I have the option of getting fibre with BT which would only be a couple pounds dearer than Talk Talk fibre and £10 cheaper than current adsl contract.. However I could switch to Talk Talk LLU services. Sam knows states that adsl2 is not enabled but adsl max is. This would be significantly cheaper for me but am afraid to take the risk of changing to TT and getting rubish speeds. I currently get around 6megdown and 0.4meg up. This is fine for me, so dont need the extra speed of infinity (with BT) but would ironically be cheaper. However I would hate to lose speed. Below are my router stats. Could anyone advise on what speed I would be likely to get with TT LLU? And what are peoples opinions as to stcking with BT and going to infinity or switching?

Downstream 8,128 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps

Noise margin (Down/Up) 9.0 dB / 23.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 36.0 dB / 19.0 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 19.8 dBm / 12.1 dBm

You'll get slightly better Down sync, 9.5 Meg (8 Meg throughput), and much better Up Sync, about 1 Meg, on ADSL2+ from an LLU ISP.

But beware that you have to move your phone to TT, which makes it harder to come back to most others ISPs.

But paying a couple £s extra for fibre would seem worth it. You will gain loads of speed even you have no use for it today.

You are already on ADSL Max - as witnessed by your 8128 / 448 line speed. Those are the absolute upper limit for ADSL Max.

TalkTalk LLU uses ADSL2 or ADSL2+ which should see you get somewehere between 11000 - 14000Kbps with your current line attenuation.

One thing to be aware of when switching to TalkTalk is that your phone line is switched onto their equipment at the exchange (full or MPF LLU) - which if you decide at a later date to switch back to a BT provided phone service (that's most other telephony providers) then there can be a significant charge for the move (up to £130).

Personally if I were in your position I'd be looking to move to fibre broadband - be that BT Infinity or one of the many other providers that use the same technology, Plusnet springs to mind. Shop around and research the various pricing and data cap / shaping policies each provider has.

Where did you get the info that you can get BT Infinity?

What does this checker say about your line? (Blank out the number but leave the rest of that line in please). Is this your exchange?

A couple of things don't add up here .

How much do you download and upload a month now? How much do you pay BT for broadband, and have you added the line rental into the Infinity price?

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 08-Oct-12 00:32:17)

Hi thanks for the reply. BT sent me email recently saying I could get fibre and there checker also says I can get infinity. My exchange is not the one you linked to. It is Newtownstewart, Strabane, NI. Have checked prices through and TT fibre is only a couple of pounds cheaper though I am comparing their basic package(unlimited) with BT 40g cap. I know (apples and oranges) but my monthly average usage is about 16gig.

Remember handover may be at another exchange, so it is possible for Max at an exchange that has cabinets offering FTTC

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

TalkTalk LLU uses ADSL2 or ADSL2+ which should see you get somewhere between 11000 - 14000Kbps with your current line attenuation.

But what about when his attenuation goes up by 3 dB with ADSL2+?

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Remember handover may be at another exchange, so it is possible for Max at an exchange that has cabinets offering FTTC

My problem was that for some reason my lookup of his exchange failed . I don't think I was drunk in charge of a samknows, but .

The ADSL checker on www.coolwebhome.co.uk takes this all into account for your these days

Doesn't appear to:

In reference to www.coolwebhome.co.uk/calc/calculator.php:

Your Estimated connection speed using ADSL mode (maximum 8 Mbps)
Normal speed range at 36dB attenuation is 5650Kbps to 7000Kbps
...
Estimated connection speed using ADSL2+ mode (maximum 24 Mbps)
Normal speed range at 36dB attenuation is 10000 Kbps to 13700 Kbps

The same attenuation as for ADSL!

Anyway it's the poster to whom I was replying that you need to tell.

11-14000 kbps downstream would be more than enough for me. Would anyone be able to advise on upstream adsl+2? My two concerns are 1) Just checking the thinkbroadband map in my area and anyone who has posted talk talk speed results show nowhere near those kinds of speeds. 2) I have heard so many horror stories regards TT it would be a big leap to go with them. Are these fears unfounded?

No reason to not expect the upstream to be in the usual ADSL2+ range of 700 to 800 Kbps

What do you expect TalkTalk to offer in that respect?

Editing my post as I mistook upstream for downstream...so TT is back on the table

Edited by deleted (Mon 08-Oct-12 22:52:35)

Well what sort of upstream speeds were you expecting to see?

Unlikely to see any ADSL2+ going much faster, apart from those using Annex M but I don't expect you to see much from Annex M

I currently get almost consisitent 400kbps with BT so those speeds would be an improvement. Once my speed was sorted(with help from all the guys on this forum) I have had faultless service with BT and very consistent speeds. To switch to TT seems a big risk. Everyone here though seems to be saying that speeds should be ok with them. I live in the countryside maybe two-ish miles or more from the exchange (I think) on a new line from the road to my house. would this distance effect adsl+2. And why does Samknows say adsl+2 is not at my exchange?

Had talktalk for 2 years on a longer line 45dB and got 7 Meg connection from it, so you should go faster (was 5.5Meg with ADSL). Now trying Sky to see what they are like.

As for SamKnows depends on whether they get the updates and roll them into their database.

Upstream sync should be around 1022Kbps with ADSL2+ connected to TT kit at the exchange.

Resellers will do partial LLU using TT exchange kit which might be an option due to your totally understandable cautiousness regarding TT full LLU. Resellers' prices will generally be higher than TT but one month minimum terms will be available and landline rental can be kept with BT.

However, currently, to migrate from resellers' TT partial LLU to BT based broadband (e.g. 21CN WBC ADSL2+) may involve a £48 fee if a move were to be contemplated in the future which might be worth bearing in mind.

Edited by 4M2 (Tue 09-Oct-12 00:20:27)

Your ADSL2+ speed is mainly determined by your known attenuation which accounts for the distance.

In reply to a post by Speedchaser:

And why does Samknows say adsl+2 is not at my exchange?

Cuz it, 21CN, isn't at your exchange. But it's irrelevant as TT don't use 21CN; they have their own ADSL2+.

You won't get the 11 to 14 Meg Down bandied about here cuz no one else has taken account of the increase in attenuation that will occur with ADSL2+.

So if that was taken into account what would speed likely to be?

This is an issue debated quite often here. In a lot of cases the attenuation on a line when using ADSL rises by about 3dB when that line is changed to ADSL2+. (By the way - it is ADSL2+, not ADSL+2). In a fair number of other cases this doesn't happen, and the attenuation is the same on both.

We have never had an explanation of this inconsistency, so it is best to consider the possibility, (in my opinion high probability), of it happening on your line. It may be simply down to the router used.

I often use this graph to provide estimates here. Take it as a reasonable guide, not gospel, and in your case look at 36dB and 39dB.

On that graph I also regard the Average curve as ludicrously low, and caused by a large number of samples taken from installations with dodgy home phone wiring or worse.

There used to be a slightly better but harder to use graph, but it has been removed from its site. I never downloaded it .

Edited by RobertoS (Tue 09-Oct-12 08:33:52)

See my 2nd post to your thread: http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/which_isp/t/4165367...

My calculations are based on a combination of the graphs with tweaks based on observation around here.

I get similar speeds from BT in Co Down and I'm happy with my package. If you're satisfied with BT, have you asked for a quote from their renewals team? Switching can be a lot of hassle.

Like insurance etc most big firms hope that you won't notice the increases at renewal time. One has to phone for a decent price. I also had to phone to renew BT line rental which seemingly is paid by credit card; there's a really good discount if you can pay the year in advance.

Well I was contacted by BT today, just a call to check how my service is and could they offer to improve it...like provide me with fibre Hmmm coincidence that I have been using my phone number on their site to check availability and initally starting the order proceedure to confirm?? Perhaps.. Anyway he did offer to wave the instalation fee and put me on a 90 trail period in which time I could cancel if not happy. I said I'd go ahead with that thinking that if I change my mind in the next day or two I'm sure there is probably a cool down period in which I can pull out without penalty. With the package I will be getting fibre broadband (40g cap) and 24/7 free landine calls for £6 cheaper than my current package with BT. Still though very tempted by Talk Talk plus which would be £15 cheaper for tv, unlimited broadband (aprox 60%) faster than current and 24/7 phone. Ironically their cheapest fibre would cost me £1 dearer though I would have unlimited broadband. A few have commented on the connection fee for providers by switching to from LLU, but BT and others are always offering this free and I'm sure if you rang them up and said I would like to get your services if you can waive the connection fee they wont say no.

Edited by deleted (Wed 10-Oct-12 20:08:15)

Have given TT checker my phone number and postcode to see what speed they predict but their checker is saying essentials and essentials plus are not available at my location?? Samknows definately states my exchange is TT LLU. I am quite a long way from the exchange so would this barr me from accessing TT LLU at my exchange??

Distance is not normally an issue with TT LLU, but capacity can sometimes be an issue, as in they need to install more line cards.

When I go through the same process with their fibre option it says, good news, and gives me the speeds I should expec,t and a form to fill out so they can contact me regards which fibre options I'd prefer. Would this service be on differnt "cards".