SoGEA options - 1 month contract?

Hi all - I am soon moving into a property that has Openreach FTTC and Virgin Media connections available, however Giganet's FTTP checker says it will be covered soon (they are currently building out FTTP in the local area). BIDB shows planned works on nearby roads as starting January 2023, so I know it'll be at least 4 months before I'm likely to even be able to place an order with them.

As such, I'd like to opt for a 1 month/rolling contract so that I can switch easily when needed. I have no need for a home phone so I'm looking at SoGEA services. This combined with the 1 month contract seems to limit my options to providers that I haven't heard much about, so is anyone able to chime in on their experiences with the following, or know of any other SoGEA providers that I've missed out?

IDNet: SuperFast Basic - £30.00/month, £60.00 Setup fee (inc VAT)
Freeola: Unlimited Fibre Broadband (SoGEA 40|10) - £29.99/month, £65.00 Setup fee (inc VAT)
Cerberus Networks: SOGEA Business - £43.80/month, £97.60 Setup fee (inc VAT)

Price wise, IDNet/Freeola seem to win, but I'd like to know if anyone has experience on reliability - from brief research, both seem to use Zen's backhaul, and I've read a lot about Zen's gateway issues - I'm based in the South so if my connection was routed via Zen's Manchester gateway it would increase my latency a lot (latency is one of the many reason's I haven't considered using Virgin Media)

Thanks in advance

I don't have any experience with them but have you taken a look at Cuckoo? They've just been bought by Giganet so might make things simpler when it comes time to upgrade to FTTP.

In reply to a post by Adrianuk:

I don't have any experience with them but have you taken a look at Cuckoo? They've just been bought by Giganet so might make things simpler when it comes time to upgrade to FTTP.

Good idea, I'd initially discounted Cuckoo since they didn't seem to offer SoGEA, and their page didn't mention line rental, so I assumed I'd be paying extra for that. It turns out that line rental is included, so it starts cheaper than IDNET. I'll be paying slightly more, £1 extra per month for the static IP add on.

Many thanks for the recommendation! Will see how things go with Cuckoo.

In reply to a post by Samdotr:

Price wise, IDNet/Freeola seem to win, but I'd like to know if anyone has experience on reliability - from brief research, both seem to use Zen's backhaul, and I've read a lot about Zen's gateway issues - I'm based in the South so if my connection was routed via Zen's Manchester gateway it would increase my latency a lot (latency is one of the many reason's I haven't considered using Virgin Media)

worst case, disconnect/reconnect and you can end up on a different RAS... it's really a non-issue.

Latency is fine and stable regardless on idnet etc, unlike Virgin.

In reply to a post by therioman:

Latency is fine and stable regardless on idnet etc, unlike Virgin.

Beg to differ. If IDNet have you on Zen backhaul you are disconnected and reconnected from time to time. From the North East of England my latency varies between 10ms and 22ms to the same endpoint depending on which gateway the reconnection hits.

Edited by GonePostal (Fri 23-Sep-22 13:27:57)

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by therioman:

Latency is fine and stable regardless on idnet etc, unlike Virgin.

Beg to differ. If IDNet have you on Zen backhaul you are disconnected and reconnected from time to time. From the North East of England my latency varies between 10ms and 22ms to the same endpoint depending on which gateway the reconnection hits.

You didn't read my post did you...

I did not say the latency was the same between gateways.

I said it was *stable* - eg does not constantly fluctuate.

In practical terms, for almost every use case, 10ms vs 22ms makes absolutely no real world difference, but what does make a difference is wildly fluctuating latency and jitter - that breaks many use cases.

For your average user browsing the web, doing some zoom calls, watching netflix etc, 10 vs 22 makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to the experience.

In reply to a post by therioman:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by therioman:

Latency is fine and stable regardless on idnet etc, unlike Virgin.

Beg to differ. If IDNet have you on Zen backhaul you are disconnected and reconnected from time to time. From the North East of England my latency varies between 10ms and 22ms to the same endpoint depending on which gateway the reconnection hits.

You didn't read my post did you...

I did not say the latency was the same between gateways.

I said it was *stable* - eg does not constantly fluctuate.

In practical terms, for almost every use case, 10ms vs 22ms makes absolutely no real world difference, but what does make a difference is wildly fluctuating latency and jitter - that breaks many use cases.

For your average user browsing the web, doing some zoom calls, watching netflix etc, 10 vs 22 makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to the experience.

On the contrary, I did read your post and was worried that to my mind you were not giving 100% of the picture. Perhaps we have different understanding of the meanings of words.

We are agreed that for most people 10ms vs 22ms makes no practical difference. On the other hand for gamers this could be critical and if it can change at any time without warning (including maybe 60 seconds totally disconnected) I would hesitate to call it stable without adding a caveat.

I've been with IDNet for many years now. Very helpful support although I've personally had very few issues. I recommend them to everyone with the caveat that usually they are more expensive.

Edited by Andrue (Fri 23-Sep-22 16:48:44)

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

We are agreed that for most people 10ms vs 22ms makes no practical difference. On the other hand for gamers this could be critical and if it can change at any time without warning (including maybe 60 seconds totally disconnected) I would hesitate to call it stable without adding a caveat.

That doesn't sound normal or representative of my experiences - and I have a lot of circuits using them - many of which run for many weeks (FTTC) or months (FTTP) at a time with no disruption at all, no PPP loss whatsoever. If you're having issues being entirely disconnected I suggest you get some support.

In reply to a post by therioman:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

We are agreed that for most people 10ms vs 22ms makes no practical difference. On the other hand for gamers this could be critical and if it can change at any time without warning (including maybe 60 seconds totally disconnected) I would hesitate to call it stable without adding a caveat.

That doesn't sound normal or representative of my experiences - and I have a lot of circuits using them - many of which run for many weeks (FTTC) or months (FTTP) at a time with no disruption at all, no PPP loss whatsoever. If you're having issues being entirely disconnected I suggest you get some support.

if you have a wander round the internet there are a good few IDNet customers who are presumably on Zen back haul who have regular drop-outs and re-connections. You seem to be either lucky or on another backhaul. At one stage I was seeing a drop and re-connect about once every three or four days. Now it is only happening about once a month but IDNet do not want to know and deny that there is any problem. Why do you assume that other people posting here are less capable than you and have not already done the sensible things when there is a problem?

SoGEA 80/20 Idnet ... 4 years very few issues good isp

In reply to a post by Greenbeans1:

SoGEA 80/20 Idnet ... 4 years very few issues good isp

Pleased to hear it but personally I wouldn't touch any ISP that uses Zen backhaul with a barge pole even if they were giving it away for free.

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by therioman:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

We are agreed that for most people 10ms vs 22ms makes no practical difference. On the other hand for gamers this could be critical and if it can change at any time without warning (including maybe 60 seconds totally disconnected) I would hesitate to call it stable without adding a caveat.

That doesn't sound normal or representative of my experiences - and I have a lot of circuits using them - many of which run for many weeks (FTTC) or months (FTTP) at a time with no disruption at all, no PPP loss whatsoever. If you're having issues being entirely disconnected I suggest you get some support.

if you have a wander round the internet there are a good few IDNet customers who are presumably on Zen back haul who have regular drop-outs and re-connections. You seem to be either lucky or on another backhaul. At one stage I was seeing a drop and re-connect about once every three or four days. Now it is only happening about once a month but IDNet do not want to know and deny that there is any problem. Why do you assume that other people posting here are less capable than you and have not already done the sensible things when there is a problem?

I do have a lot of circuits and I do know which backhaul they're on.

If you're seeing disconnections "once a month" there's really nothing to see and no real issue to be discussed, and especially if those disconnections were in the early hours when all manner of maintenance by everyone in the chain from Openreach up to Zen would be likely.

If you're seeing several disconnections a week, there is something wrong and it is worth discussing. and especially if it is during daytimes when you would not expect maintenance type work typically.

Do you have anything more specific you can share on when these issues are happening?

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Greenbeans1:

SoGEA 80/20 Idnet ... 4 years very few issues good isp

Pleased to hear it but personally I wouldn't touch any ISP that uses Zen backhaul with a barge pole even if they were giving it away for free.

That would exclude quite a lot of ISPs then - Zen are an increasingly popular option - partially because of the pricing model they're offering that is appealing when you're also faced with ever increasing consumption.

In reply to a post by therioman:

That would exclude quite a lot of ISPs then

Can you provider a list of those you know use Zen backhaul?

In reply to a post by therioman:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

In reply to a post by therioman:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

That doesn't sound normal or representative of my experiences - and I have a lot of circuits using them - many of which run for many weeks (FTTC) or months (FTTP) at a time with no disruption at all, no PPP loss whatsoever. If you're having issues being entirely disconnected I suggest you get some support.

if you have a wander round the internet there are a good few IDNet customers who are presumably on Zen back haul who have regular drop-outs and re-connections. You seem to be either lucky or on another backhaul. At one stage I was seeing a drop and re-connect about once every three or four days. Now it is only happening about once a month but IDNet do not want to know and deny that there is any problem. Why do you assume that other people posting here are less capable than you and have not already done the sensible things when there is a problem?

I do have a lot of circuits and I do know which backhaul they're on.

If you're seeing disconnections "once a month" there's really nothing to see and no real issue to be discussed, and especially if those disconnections were in the early hours when all manner of maintenance by everyone in the chain from Openreach up to Zen would be likely.

If you're seeing several disconnections a week, there is something wrong and it is worth discussing. and especially if it is during daytimes when you would not expect maintenance type work typically.

Do you have anything more specific you can share on when these issues are happening?

If you bother to read my post you will see that I was getting frequent disconnections at one stage but that it is now only happening about once a month. The odd disconnections I currently get are usually during the day time. I really haven't the time to do an internet search for you to find the other places on the internet where people on Zen backhaul are reporting frequent disconnections. When I was seeing more frequent disconnections I did not bother taking it up with IDNet as there were posters on other sites who had reported the issue to IDNet and were told it was not an issue.

It would be best if we draw a line under this now with the note that we agree to differ as it is clear that you hold a lot more of a rose-tinted view about IDNet and their use of Zen backhaul than I do.

Edited by GonePostal (Mon 26-Sep-22 13:21:57)

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

It would be best if we draw a line under this now with the note that we agree to differ as it is clear that you hold a lot more of a rose-tinted view about IDNet and their use of Zen backhaul than I do.

Your inaccurate assumption.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by therioman:

That would exclude quite a lot of ISPs then

Can you provider a list of those you know use Zen backhaul?

I don't have that option no - without breaking NDAs - not every ISP wishes to disclose the supplier chain (the merit of which is up to you to decide upon...) but I will say I am sometimes surprised to find Zen appearing in the mix with companies you might not expect large and small.

I'm not that keen on the arrangement, but I wasn't that keen on BT Wholesale only either - nor the duo of BT or TalkTalk we have had for a long time as the 2 dominant players. I'm also not that keen on the choice some make to be less than transparent about it - although usually you figure out who uses who when there is a major outage

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

The odd disconnections I currently get are usually during the day time.

Perhaps when you next experience this you might reply or DM me - I'd be interested to compare your incident to the logs we have (per second per line) for every circuit we have using them, and see if we see any such issue - if there is something going on I might be able to get someone to take a look - but I don't see that in the data I've got as it stands.

In reply to a post by therioman:

I don't have that option no - without breaking NDAs

I put those quoting breaking NDAs in the same category as those who use health and safety as a reason not to do something

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by therioman:

I don't have that option no - without breaking NDAs

I put those quoting breaking NDAs in the same category as those who use health and safety as a reason not to do something

Well that's your choice, but the reality is some people do sign NDAs as part of getting access to something or services, and it is very common to agree to non-disclosure in commercial settings, so you can think what you like, but it is *very* common and the basic reality of doing business.

In reply to a post by therioman:

Well that's your choice, but the reality is some people do sign NDAs as part of getting access to something or services, and it is very common to agree to non-disclosure in commercial settings, so you can think what you like, but it is *very* common and the basic reality of doing business.

Fully aware of the importance of NDAs in business but also recognise that its easy for someone to make a claim on a free forum and when challenged hide behind some phantom legal scenario.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by therioman:

Well that's your choice, but the reality is some people do sign NDAs as part of getting access to something or services, and it is very common to agree to non-disclosure in commercial settings, so you can think what you like, but it is *very* common and the basic reality of doing business.

Fully aware of the importance of NDAs in business but also recognise that its easy for someone to make a claim on a free forum and when challenged hide behind some phantom legal scenario.

Similarly, it's very easy for someone to claim an ISP is doing a bad job on a "free forum" (not sure being paid would make any difference mind)...

However, Zen Wholesale is pretty well known and they have plenty of customers... some advertise that they use it openly, some don't but would tell you if you ask, and some refuse to ever discuss backhaul, carriers, wholesale arrangements etc (some to the point where transit or peering is easy for anyone to deduce but they'll still refuse to acknowledge it)... but that doesn't change whether I could discuss a providers arrangements where an NDA says otherwise.

I do suggest you do a quick google though... some providers quite easy to find because they (or Zen) promote the partnership... if you want to explore it more...

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by therioman:

I don't have that option no - without breaking NDAs

I put those quoting breaking NDAs in the same category as those who use health and safety as a reason not to do something

And GDPR LOL

In reply to a post by therioman:

In reply to a post by GonePostal:

The odd disconnections I currently get are usually during the day time.

Perhaps when you next experience this you might reply or DM me - I'd be interested to compare your incident to the logs we have (per second per line) for every circuit we have using them, and see if we see any such issue - if there is something going on I might be able to get someone to take a look - but I don't see that in the data I've got as it stands.

Or I might not.

I signed the Official Secrets Act many years ago.

I noticed that BAe Warton were building Tornado aircraft while I was setting out the site for a new arrival/departure building.

Well chop off my head and stick it on a pole.

In reply to a post by broadband66:

I signed the Official Secrets Act many years ago.

I noticed that BAe Warton were building Tornado aircraft while I was setting out the site for a new arrival/departure building.

Well chop off my head and stick it on a pole.

🤣 there's nowt so queer as folk 😎

In reply to a post by broadband66:

I signed the Official Secrets Act many years ago.

I noticed that BAe Warton were building Tornado aircraft while I was setting out the site for a new arrival/departure building.

Well chop off my head and stick it on a pole.

There’s quite a difference between something in the public domain - like idnet using zen wholesale and being willing to say so, and someone who hasn’t. It isn’t that difficult to deduce what is or isn’t being used. But that doesn’t mean choosing to disclose something you may have agreed not to do so becomes ok.

As I’m sure you’d know had you done anything of that nature. And in this case there are also considerations for not leaving yourself open to suggestion of not complying with those agreements which can be bad for you commercially.

It’s not my right to choose to disclose what commercial relationships someone might use when I’ve agreed to to disclose any information. You’ll likely be aware how broad some agreements are in scope. Again; rightly or wrongly is irrelevant.

May be you can learn from this and not make comments like

In reply to a post by therioman:

That would exclude quite a lot of ISPs

then use the 5th amendment when questioned about it.

If your job really involves your employer having NDAs with ISPs may be less is more

In reply to a post by dect:

May be you can learn from this and not make comments like

In reply to a post by therioman:

That would exclude quite a lot of ISPs

then use the 5th amendment when questioned about it.

If your job really involves your employer having NDAs with ISPs may be less is more

I am the employer but let's not worry about your lack of facts here.

Also, I'll keep your tip in mind on the 5th amendment for when I'm suddenly in another dimension, became an American Citizen and somehow had a scenario to use the 5th. I guess you need to read up first on what that actually is and where it applies, but y'know, you be you

In reply to a post by therioman:

I am the employer but let's not worry about your lack of facts here.

And how would I know or care that you were the big cheese as until a couple of days ago I hadn't had the misfortune.


disclaimer: I don't literally mean 'big cheese' in case you were thinking of replying about the merits of various types of it.

SoGEA 80/20 UnchainedISP stable for 12 weeks with no issues using BTW backhaul

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Greenbeans1:

SoGEA 80/20 Idnet ... 4 years very few issues good isp

Pleased to hear it but personally I wouldn't touch any ISP that uses Zen backhaul with a barge pole even if they were giving it away for free.

You can always ask them to change you to BT.

In reply to a post by Andrue:

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Greenbeans1:

SoGEA 80/20 Idnet ... 4 years very few issues good isp

Pleased to hear it but personally I wouldn't touch any ISP that uses Zen backhaul with a barge pole even if they were giving it away for free.

You can always ask them to change you to BT.

Thats excellent advice, thanks for sharing that

Can one use the word "queer" nowadays in that context?

You wouldn't want to offend anyone else....

In reply to a post by broadband66:

Can one use the word "queer" nowadays in that context?

You wouldn't want to offend anyone else....

I would hope it wouldn't as its a very well known saying in certain parts of the UK and has nothing to do with the other context it can be used in. If it has offended anyone I apologise profusely.

Context is everything.

In reply to a post by Rhynchelma:

Context is everything.

Unfortunately that's often not the case these days. In this country even the word in question has only recently come back into circulation to have a sexual orientation meaning.

"Gay" had, and probably still does, to be used instead. Which cost us a centuries-old word associated with light-heartedness and happiness. I was in my teens before it was "appropriated". The use of Q in the acronym I expect came from the USA.

I can't disagree. However, that's the rule I use for myself.

Being ancient, it works for me. So far. Still waiting for plod to tear themselves away from crime and feel obliged to advise me to change my attidude.

Orwell was prophetic, would would have thought.

In reply to a post by Rhynchelma:

I can't disagree. However, that's the rule I use for myself.

Being ancient, it works for me. So far. Still waiting for plod to tear themselves away from crime and feel obliged to advise me to change my attidude.

Orwell was prophetic, would would have thought.

I think Scott Adams has just about nailed it with this Dilbert cartoon.

"Oops! We could not find a Dilbert strip for that date."

Edit: Though the three cartoons it shows have that date above them. They are about Dave and She/Her?

Edited by pluralist (Wed 28-Sep-22 19:17:48)

That's the one. I was seeing the error message earlier but the single cartoon I was referencing is now coming up without the error message when I click on the link.

Edited by GonePostal (Wed 28-Sep-22 19:29:10)

Jesus Freeola still going!?

Last time I used them it was in conjunction with Firefly - anyone remember those?

I used Cuckoo for 3 months for a temp office - was fine so I would recommend them - £60 upfront and they sent pre paid to send the router back after - can't be bad