Ten year old W10 laptop - time to replace

Just realised my "new" laptop is actually coming up to ten years old and with support for W10 coming to an end next year that it is time to start thinking of getting a new one.

Currently have an Acer i5-420U with 8GB of RAM and a 1TB HDD. A brief look suggests that the sweet spot for a reasonable home use laptop is 16GB with a 512GB SSD and it is this latter figure which concerns me as my current drive is currently 50% full.

But wondering how much of that is old crud which I don't actually need to reference in the future and could just put the old laptop drive in a caddy for if and when I do and just copy over the essentials to a new laptop?

Currently looking at the Lenovo range and wondering how reputable they are. Budget is around £500/600. Usage is basically just email and browsing with get_iplayer and CD ripping as the only really niche applications with the laptop being the base copy of all my downloaded music with copies also held on tablet and phone and USB button in the car.

Any thoughts please?

Edited by gomezz (Fri 26-Apr-24 10:08:35)

Lenovo I think are ok. I have used Acer for gaming laptops and usually get a lot for the money. Last year I sorted a new laptop for my mum and Dell were giving some good options for price to performance so worth a look at. 1TB SSDs are becoming more standard so I think you could easily get a decent spec laptop with 16GB and 1TB SSD depending on your other requirements (such as screen size as that can make a big difference on price). For CD ripping I assume you would just use an external USB drive rather than needing a laptop with one built in? Finally, are you wedded to Intel or would you consider AMD which could provide better value for money?

Thanks for that. Looking back at what I use a laptop for I am thinking that maybe I should down-size in specs to something much cheaper. I already have an external HDD which I got from for when I last changed laptop but never actually got round to using so I could offload all my save music and other user data to that and just refresh that as and when a new laptop starts filling up.

I actually have finished ripping all my old contemporary music CDs so it is only the classical music CDs still to do which I never quite get round to doing - putting the CD in the hi-fi player at home or streaming Radio 3 while out and about seems to do me these days.

Install Ubuntu and treat yourself to something else with the money!

It is an option. And one that still allows me to use get_iplayer.

In reply to a post by gomezz:

It is an option. And one that still allows me to use get_iplayer.

It is a good option if it allows you to keep the laptop going, and it does what you need. plenty of Linux distros out there to try.

Depending upon your requirements and abilities. Some software is just unobtainable for Linux and a lot is targeted at a particular version of a particular distribution.

For example, I use Quartus FPGA design software. It just works on any version of Windows. There is a Linux version available but it is targeted at a particular version of Red Hat. Getting it working on any other distribution is either impossible or a matter of finding and installing a host of particular versions of particular dynamic libraries. I use it on an old Mac Mini running Ubuntu (not my favourite, but the only one I could get the software to run with) and it was quite a battle getting it running; and certain aspects still don't work correctly.

If the only requirement is standard stuff - word processing, web browsing, email, etc - Linux is a great choice. But if your requirements are more specialised be prepared for a bit of a struggle; and once you have it working, don't upgrade your distro!

We have well over a year until W10 support stops so no need to rush out and buy a new machine. You can pick up a 500gb SSD for around fifty quid which will give a massive boost in performance to your machine and use your existing 1TB spinny drive as an external drive; you can pick up a hard drive caddy off ebay for a fiver.

@ fifty five pounds and you'll have a better performing laptop.

Way too much online panic about the end of support for W10, far too many machines being scrapped without need.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Depending upon your requirements and abilities. Some software is just unobtainable for Linux and a lot is targeted at a particular version of a particular distribution.

For example, I use Quartus FPGA design software. It just works on any version of Windows. There is a Linux version available but it is targeted at a particular version of Red Hat. Getting it working on any other distribution is either impossible or a matter of finding and installing a host of particular versions of particular dynamic libraries. I use it on an old Mac Mini running Ubuntu (not my favourite, but the only one I could get the software to run with) and it was quite a battle getting it running; and certain aspects still don't work correctly.

If the only requirement is standard stuff - word processing, web browsing, email, etc - Linux is a great choice. But if your requirements are more specialised be prepared for a bit of a struggle; and once you have it working, don't upgrade your distro!

That is why I said if it does what you need and plenty of Linux distros out there. i know very well that some software will only work or will work better with some distros, da Vinci resolve is a bit iffy about the distro it works on.

It depends on what you are using the machine for, I know people using Linux for producing music, doing graphics stuff, editing videos, 3d stuff and even running a small business, using LibreOffice.

I am thinking of getting a Linux based tablet, depending on price, just for the fun of it.

Microsoft falt for the amount of machines that will be dumped in the next few years, machines that are capable of being used for years, but MS will scare people into buying new.
They have to getting something out of forcing people to buy new machines, i know they sell laptops, but they must get something from other manufactures.
windows itself is not a big moneymaker for MS like it used to be.

Microsoft falt for the amount of machines that will be dumped in the next few years, machines that are capable of being used for years, but MS will scare people into buying new.

A bit like Apple, really.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

A bit like Apple, really.

At end, Win10 will have had a lifetime of 10 years in August 2025. Similarly Win7 had a lifetime of 10 years (2009 to 2019), and they both ran on similar hardware. If your computer pre-dates 2018 then it is possible it won't run Win11, Intel 8th Gen CPU (or AMD equivalent), and TPM required. Many computers from 2015 onwards came with TPM but a lot of consumer motherboards did not.

Apple did the same thing, modern macOS versions require Intel CPUs from 2018 or later, and their general upport lifetime has been 6 or 7 years from original purchase. Apple has now lost interest in Intel and the rumour sites reckon next year will be the last macOS for Intel.

At some respects its buyer beware... sadly.

Linux is very impressive, but 90% of it is servers; the statistics seem to show the bulk of home users are on tablets and smartphones in 2024.

Corporates have different rules, as the board is respondible to shareholders for any security lapses, this pushes companies into making sure their IT environment CAN be patched/secured.

Edited by jchamier (Sun 28-Jul-24 13:24:46)

"Way too much online panic about the end of support for W10, far too many machines being scrapped without need."

I still use a PC with XP, not for banking obviously, and as far as I know haven't had any issues.

Other machines are W7, W10 and W11.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

A bit like Apple, really.

i suppose they are all the same in that way, but at the moment Apple intel based systems are still being supported.
I don;t understand why Ms put such a limit on Windows 11, where there is no need to, after all it will run fine on my Ryzen 7 1700, but officially Ms don't want me to. Also, Ms is not Apple, while MS do sell hardware, they don't sell a great deal of it, lots of third party companies produce hardware that runs windows. Apple hardware is the only thing that runs macOS officially, sure there was such a thing as Hackintosh. So Apple reason for not supporting older hardware is to sell newer hardware. Not saying it is right, but I can understand why they do it, after all they are there to make money.

I friend still uses a trash can mac pro and i think it is supported until next year, so not too bad. Not that it was a great machine to be honest, but it does what she need it to do.

Really? My understanding is that the Trash Can Pro can’t runny any OS later than Monterey, whereas practically any PC can run all but the newest version of Windows.

Mint sounds more my speed if this is to be believed

https://www.theregister.com/2024/07/29/linus_mint_22...

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

i suppose they are all the same in that way, but at the moment Apple intel based systems are still being supported.

The rumour is 2025's OS release will be Apple Silicon only.

I don;t understand why Ms put such a limit on Windows 11, where there is no need to, after all it will run fine on my Ryzen 7 1700, but officially Ms don't want me to.

They made a decision that 2018 era Intel CPUs with certain instruction sets in chip would be required for the newer security features they wanted in the OS. Apple did the same thing, recent macOS for Intel requires a 2018 Gen8 Intel CPU or later.

If Win11 works on your Ryzen without using third party tools to get it to install, then great, its supported. If you use third party tools, then its completely in your court when an update arrives that stops it booting.

So Apple reason for not supporting older hardware is to sell newer hardware. Not saying it is right, but I can understand why they do it, after all they are there to make money.

Precisely... some people would prefer if Apple moved to 10 year support published, not the random 7 years.

These operating systems contain hundred of millions of lines of code (and at least several million probably insofar as interaction with the hardware) and it is not reasonable to expect Microsoft or Apple to be able to support the latest versions on the oldest of processors. At some point you need to draw a line and say we cannot support old hardware, or perhaps more accurately in some cases, test that all scenarios will work.

It is the same with all things in life, cars, electronics, etc.

Sometimes people don't realise the complexity behind things, and that there are cause and effect situations, so it's easy to remark that they are doing it for deliberate obsolencence when actually it's just not pragmatic or feasible to be able to support.

In reply to a post by TinyMongomery:

Really? My understanding is that the Trash Can Pro can’t runny any OS later than Monterey, whereas practically any PC can run all but the newest version of Windows.

My mistake, you are correct, officially the trash can can't run anything higher than Monterey. My friend is running Yosemite on hers. She is not fond of the later versions.
But as she is now thinking of getting a newer mac, she will have no choice.

In reply to a post by gomezz:

Mint sounds more my speed if this is to be believed

https://www.theregister.com/2024/07/29/linus_mint_22...

Mint is a nice Linux distro, the cinnamon desktop is good. I installed Mint onto a few machines over the years, laptops and other peoples machines, most are still using it. If i get myself a new laptop, Mint will be going on there.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

The rumour is 2025's OS release will be Apple Silicon only.

Not a surprise, this is what apple is concentrating on now.

They made a decision that 2018 era Intel CPUs with certain instruction sets in chip would be required for the newer security features they wanted in the OS. Apple did the same thing, recent macOS for Intel requires a 2018 Gen8 Intel CPU or later.

Apple did it to sell more hardware, I like my Apple Mac, but Apple is like any other company, they do things to make more money.

I think Microsoft should have left the choice to people, if people wanted to risk without the newer security stuff and run it on older hardware than let them do it.
But Ms seems to be controlling these days, more so than Apple.

If Win11 works on your Ryzen without using third party tools to get it to install, then great, its supported. If you use third party tools, then its completely in your court when an update arrives that stops it booting.

I realise that, and I expect most people who put Windows 11 on a machine that don't officially support it knows it as well. I put windows 10 back on a while ago.

Precisely... some people would prefer if Apple moved to 10 year support published, not the random 7 years.

10 years is a long time in computer terms, i know technology is not moving as fast as it used to, apart from maybe Arm, but it is still a fair few years.
Saying that, a ten-year-old machine will still work fine for a lot of people, which is why it is good that Linux is there.

In reply to a post by Pipexer:

These operating systems contain hundred of millions of lines of code (and at least several million probably insofar as interaction with the hardware) and it is not reasonable to expect Microsoft or Apple to be able to support the latest versions on the oldest of processors. At some point you need to draw a line and say we cannot support old hardware, or perhaps more accurately in some cases, test that all scenarios will work.

It is the same with all things in life, cars, electronics, etc.

Sometimes people don't realise the complexity behind things, and that there are cause and effect situations, so it's easy to remark that they are doing it for deliberate obsolencence when actually it's just not pragmatic or feasible to be able to support.

i realise the complexity, but you can't put cars or even a lot of electronics in that category. A 20-year-old car will still work and do the job, may use a bit more fuel than a modern car and take a bit more maintenance to keep it on the road. I know of someone who runs an old 20-year-old skoda, they prefer the simpleness of it to modern cars.


Electronics, well they can go for years, the Hi-fi I use for my computer is over 30 years old, a Toshiba midi, it still does the job. Scanner is over 10 years old, again, still works and thankfully, someone made the drivers so I can use it on my Mac. Dect phones, that have to be over 20 years old, still works. Radio in the bedroom, 15 years old. My Panasonic midi system i have in my living room, has to be over 15 years old.

So electronics can be used for years, it is when you have to cope with software and firmware that the problems may start, but even so many things will still work, even if not updated. As long as it don't need a connection to a server. Which is a problem for people that have smart home stuff, as any company could go belly up or not support something. Which is what I found out with Logitech and their harmony remotes.

I can understand Ms saying we are not supporting older processors if there is a reason for it, but when the OS runs fine on a processor, why block it? I put Windows 11 on my Ryzen 7 1700 machine and it worked fine. i had to use some software to make an image that would bypass the block, but once on the machine it works fine. Ms should just have had Windows 11 put up a message saying, it is not recommended you install Windows 11 on this machine, you do so at your own risk, do you want to continue?

Windows 11 while it looks nicer than Windows 10 in some ways, Ms have far more control over it, forced MS accounts, I know there ware ways to get around it, but should not need ways to get around it. Forced search with their search engine, if you use the search in windows, and then they push you to their browser.
Pushing their Ai rubbish all the time, forced telemetry.

To be honest, if anyone can cope with using Linux they would be better off.
Even apple don't do all those things that MS does these days on the Mac.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

i realise the complexity, but you can't put cars or even a lot of electronics in that category. A 20-year-old car will still work and do the job, may use a bit more fuel than a modern car and take a bit more maintenance to keep it on the road.

But it is not reasonable to expect a manufacturer to keep providing spare parts for every model they have ever sold; that would be a logistical nightmare. Should Ford still sell parts for the Model-T? That is what support means; it is the equivalent of an OS-vendor supporting ancient hardware.

To keep an old car running you are probably going to have to use 3rd-party components, sometimes you have to join an owner's group. With ancient PC hardware you can do the same - hence Linux. My 20-year-old Mac mini still works (I have installed Linux on it) and does pretty much what a brand new computer does, just a little slower. But it would certainly be pretty useless if I stuck with OS X.

The same argument applies to many other consumer goods - washing machines, gas boilers, etc.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I can understand Ms saying we are not supporting older processors if there is a reason for it, but when the OS runs fine on a processor, why block it?

Interestingly, I just downloaded a Windows 11 iso and attempted to install it in Hyper-V, with TPM enabled, 2 cores, 4GB RAM and 4th gen Intel. The installation went through without a single complaint, whereas previously a workaround was required.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Interestingly, I just downloaded a Windows 11 iso and attempted to install it in Hyper-V, with TPM enabled, 2 cores, 4GB RAM and 4th gen Intel. The installation went through without a single complaint, whereas previously a workaround was required.

Very strange, I bet it would complain if you turned TPM off.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Interestingly, I just downloaded a Windows 11 iso and attempted to install it in Hyper-V, with TPM enabled, 2 cores, 4GB RAM and 4th gen Intel. The installation went through without a single complaint, whereas previously a workaround was required.

Yes... reports are its a possible bug in 23H2, and there is a new check coming in 24H2 which may break anything before 4th Gen.

I have a really nice 4th Gen i7 desktop, that I eventually retired as no way to add TPM and it was only SATA 3, and so NVMe was calling

In reply to a post by jchamier:

Yes... reports are its a possible bug in 23H2, and there is a new check coming in 24H2 which may break anything before 4th Gen.

I'd be happy to see 4th gen removed from the cpu compatibility block. The one I still use has a TPM 2.0 slot on the motherboard, so I bought a plug-in module for it for a few quid. It also has an M.2 slot.

Edited by Oliver341 (Fri 02-Aug-24 12:02:39)

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

I'd be happy to see 4th gen removed from the cpu compatibility block. The one I still use has a TPM 2.0 slot on the motherboard, so I bought a plug-in module for it for a few quid. It also has an M.2 slot.

I think some 4th Gen have the option of a microcode TPM in the CPU, but not many.

The 8th gen requirements is around instruction set, not TPM, and it is the same instructions that Apple wanted in macOS.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

The 8th gen requirements is around instruction set

At least for the time being those instructions are optional. The compatibility blocks are probably designed to prevent people running into a future date where those instructions become mandatory. But even then I'm pretty sure Microsoft would just block the incompatible feature update rather than install one that bluescreens the machine.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

At least for the time being those instructions are optional. The compatibility blocks are probably designed to prevent people running into a future date where those instructions become mandatory. But even then I'm pretty sure Microsoft would just block the incompatible feature update rather than install one that bluescreens the machine.

Maybe there are services that home users don't use (and corporates do) that are using these instructions in Pro/Enterprise editions, or when you join an Entra ID cloud domain, or on premises AD domain or buy into the MS corporate security cloud services (instead of buying Crowdstrike). I can see home users not hitting any of that.

When Win10 goes out of support in August 2025, a year away, then PCs older than 7 years may just be recycled.

Got as far as downloading, verifying and authenticating the Mint distro this evening. Not at work all next week so have several days to have a go at getting it up and running. Thinking of a dual-boot system to begin with.

In reply to a post by gomezz:

Got as far as downloading, verifying and authenticating the Mint distro this evening. Not at work all next week so have several days to have a go at getting it up and running. Thinking of a dual-boot system to begin with.

Wondering how it went. Run mint as VM in my proxmox setup, decent OS and not a steep learning curve from windows.

Never got round to it ... need to first find the USB cable that connects to the portable hard disk I got to to save my data from last time I changed laptops. It has one of the funny USB connectors that was around for a time before USB 3 became the thing.

Edited by gomezz (Sat 14-Dec-24 18:51:32)

In reply to a post by gomezz:

It has one of the funny USB connectors that was around for a time before USB 3 became the thing.

One of those mini-USB with the extension pins for the higher 3.0 speeds perhaps? Were only common on external drives when the computer end was the modified A plug with extra pins (typically coloured blue)

Nice picture of a lot of them here on the right side:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware#Connectors

The USB-C connector solved a lot of pain. And it easily carries all versions of USB plus DisplayPort, and various Thunderbolt versions as well as power ! Amazing.

Pretty sure had an old Lenovo ThinkPad with very similar on the left side, to the 10-pin versions in your link 🤔 It may have even been something proprietary. They did love doing a bit of that. I never ever bothered with it.

New ones just default to standard USB-C of course. Thankfully.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Pretty sure had an old Lenovo ThinkPad with very similar on the left side, to the 10-pin versions in your link 🤔 It may have even been something proprietary. They did love doing a bit of that. I never ever bothered with it.

Back in the IBM Thinkpad days there were various odd connectors for external CD or Floppy drive attachment. The 600E/600X range had the first working USB that I recall and people called it the "useless bus" as nothing worked with Win95 or NT4. (NT on a laptop was not great).

The T14 I use at work has a double width port with standard USB-C plus extra pins for those models with high power GPU I think. Not really dug into it, as we don't buy the GPU versions. (See the 150page hardware manual!).

New ones just default to standard USB-C of course. Thankfully.

Two USB-C's on the T14 and X1 models we mostly use; both Thunderbolt enabled, makes "docking" monitors really useful.

Ahh yes this was for a custom ethernet dongle methinks. It was couple of extra pins next to the main USB-C connector (a 2019 machine, so hardly ancient)

I do remember fondly the old-style 'proper' docking stations; 2 rows of parallel connectors and a locking pin at either end. This mated to the underside of the laptop chassis. They worked quite well and as I recall some of them you could lock the laptop into the dock with a key. The dock then being secured with a regular Kensington style cord.

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Ahh yes this was for a custom ethernet dongle methinks. It was couple of extra pins next to the main USB-C connector (a 2019 machine, so hardly ancient)

My 2016 ThinkPad Yoga X1 had a custom very thin connector for a propriatory dock or Ethernet dongle. The actual Ethernet chip and MAC address were inside the machine but the chassis too thin for a normal RJ45.

There were a few types of this in the years before USB-C was adopted everywhere by Lenovo (late 2016?); searching online found this, perhaps your was this one. My Yoga's adaptor looked similar but the PC end was wider and thinner.

I do remember fondly the old-style 'proper' docking stations; 2 rows of parallel connectors and a locking pin at either end. This mated to the underside of the laptop chassis. They worked quite well and as I recall some of them you could lock the laptop into the dock with a key. The dock then being secured with a regular Kensington style cord.

Last one of those I had paid for was for a T40p which was a Pentium M machine; late Win2000, early XP days. Friends whom have Dell machines from work had them for a lot longer.

I always thought a damp desk (or meal tray on a train, or airline) would short out the connector!

Edited by jchamier (Sun 15-Dec-24 15:27:07)

Yeah that looks eerily familiar. This was on my previous Yoga X390. Its probably at the bottom of a drawer here somewhere 🤦‍♂️🙈

Speaking of the last of the true "IBM" ThinkPads. The last of mine were a T20 that I bought in oz in 2000, then upgraded to a T41p whilst on a trip to the states in 2003. That was a Pentium-M 1.7GHz, 1.5GB RAM, 60 GB hard rive. I sold it on in 2011 to a lady in Marlborough, Wiltshire. Solid little things!!

Edited by Pheasant (Sun 15-Dec-24 15:37:52)

In reply to a post by Pheasant:

Solid little things!!

The T20/T21/T22 and T23 were amazing. The T30 was the Pentium 4 mobile unit and had an insanely heavy heatsink, we were very pleased to get the T40/T41/T42 range. The p for performance had better graphics.

Completely different when Core/Core2/Core3 appeared in the three digit ones, and then they gave up and went to screen diagonal (e.g. T14,T15).

I've said it before, but for me ThinkPads (whether 'old' IBM or Lenovo) have been my laptop of choice in the Windows world for going on three decades now.

I’m lucky employer used them.

In reply to a post by gomezz:

Never got round to it ... need to first find the USB cable that connects to the portable hard disk I got to to save my data from last time I changed laptops. It has one of the funny USB connectors that was around for a time before USB 3 became the thing.

Oh yeah, i hear you.

Desk is littered with varying types of USB connectors..

Universal eh

Done the deed and hit the button on a new W11 laptop with the prospect of having newer hardware including SSD hard drive making it a lot more responsive than Mr Sluggy I am typing this on.

That gives me two projects to work on: Setting up the new W11 laptop to suit me (ie disabling all AI functionality) then try installing Mint on the old laptop. If they both go well may then well install Mint on the new laptop and wave goodbye to Windows for good.

Good luck with getting rid of AI on windows 11, they are renaming it now on different apps., It is a shame that MS just don't stick an I don't want AI switch in settings.

As for Mint or any Linux, it depends on what you do with your laptop, I know a few people who use Linux for different things, making music, 3d work, video editing, some graphics design work and office stuff.

Linux itself is fine, if you get a distro you like, the main thing is the desktop, the main problem, with Linux is the software. The UI on a lot of it looks old, like something from Windows 98 days. But if you can get past that then the software works fine for the most part.

I think I said before the one thing I do on my W10 laptop that I can't do on my Android phone is use get_iplayer.

I did manage to kill AI on my new Android phone in December and from what I can see I can keep it out of my hair (what is left of it) on W11 too.

Got the initial set uo done in remarkably short time this morning. Just got to transfer over the rest of my user data such as my music library and set up get_iplayer.

One thing I did find worrying was that the initial account transfer from my old laptop set me up as an admin and it took a bit of head scratching to figure out how to set up a separate admin user account and then use that to change my usual account to standard user. Worrying for more naive users who may not even think that this is something to do and leave themselves more open to attacks, Or with W11 am I unduly concerned?

Installed get_iplayer yesterday evening but struggled to understand how to set up the file naming format I prefer. Those guys really need a technical author to revise their help documentation! In the end just copied over the options file from the old laptop which did the job. Looking at the settings in there bears little resemblance to what I was seeing in help. Goodness knows how I worked it out in the first place all those years ago!

Also need to copy over the history file to tell it I don't need to download all those old programmes I already have.

Mmm! Installed the same file renamer utility as on the old laptop and somehow it automatically picked up the macros I had set up on there. Outlook and Firefox etc reusing the same user set up based on the account login is one thing but I am at a loss as to how this little app did so unless it was based in using the same IP connection? Or was the set up file included in the OneDrive backup and restore?

The config file is probably stored in the documents folder in your user directory which by default would be back up by OneDrive. Some of the games I have on my laptop do the same so moving to a new laptop would keep the save files.

As long as it is not an unexpected spooky or sinister action by the system but a normal part of moving to a new laptop.

One thing I have done is unlink my phone which at first seemed a good idea but in practise was more of a pain. For example deleting files on the phone in File Explorer put them in a Recycle bin on the phone - not what I want. Instead done the usual of adding the phone as a network device which means file deletes / moves / copies go back to working the way I am used to.

Now moved the rest of my user data not part of the OneDrive process - basically my music library,. Finally got round to using the 1TB external disk that I original got all those years ago when intending to use it to set up my now previous laptop from the one before that. It quaintly has the short-lived USB-3 socket but came with a USB-3 to USB-A cable so no compatibility problems there.

Finally figured out (ie Googled) the way to totally get rid of Windows Link repeatedly nudging me to link my phone and also how to turn off File History to reconnect my external device now I have done the backup/restore process.

I think I am now ready to park the old laptop in the that dusty corner of the cupboard where it can hang out with the rest of my obsolete tech.