To cancel or not...

Following my woes in this thread, and Zen's reluctance to help out, I am wondering whether to jump ship before I even started. I am still within the 14 day cancellation period, which states:

In reference to www.zen.co.uk/policies.aspx?page=10678:

11.3 Once the Broadband Services have been activated and are available for you to use, you may only end this Agreement by notice equal to the Minimum Cancellation Notice Period of 14 days, to expire any time on or after the Minimum Service Period, which, as stated at point of sale are:
a) 30 days in the case of ADSL Services; or
b) 12 months in the case of an ADSL Service transfer from an LLU provider.

I want to speak to someone like AAISP and see if they would be willing to take me (and my moaning) on. I think my line can do much better than it is but is it worth the hassle?

Edited by deleted (Fri 11-Sep-15 16:54:16)

my view would be to move the service to a 40M/xx service and just stick with that, you will not notice the difference.

As to if your line can support >42M, it could be that you need to look at your local wiring etc. You could decide to stay with what you have and try to fix.

I was in a similar position and did cancel. I used the cancel period to fault find. I went back to my previous provider for about 6 mths and then moved to another one. In the end I did a lot of work on my home phone cabling which fixed most issues. I can get 80/20 but I am just on a 40/20 service.

As someone who is on ADSL at 7 Mbps can I venture to ask how, in practical day to day use, one is unhappy if your connection runs att 40 Mbps rather than 50?

Unless you have a family of 5 children, all on their laptops playing mega speed games at the same time, how do you tell your fibre is running at 40 instead of 50? What problem does it cause?

I can well understand how some can feel short changed if they are paying for infinty 2 and only getting infinity 1 but, in practical terms, unless you run a speed checker, how do you tell the difference?

Just asking

That's not the point. The point is that I think there's something wrong with my line and Zen are completely turning a blind eye on it. It's the attitude that I would like to get away from rather than the speeds. Perhaps move to someone that actually cares...

In reply to a post by CaptainJack:

Following my woes in this thread, and Zen's reluctance to help out, I am wondering whether to jump ship before I even started. I am still within the 14 day cancellation period, which states:

In reference to www.zen.co.uk/policies.aspx?page=10678:

11.3 Once the Broadband Services have been activated and are available for you to use, you may only end this Agreement by notice equal to the Minimum Cancellation Notice Period of 14 days, to expire any time on or after the Minimum Service Period, which, as stated at point of sale are:
a) 30 days in the case of ADSL Services; or
b) 12 months in the case of an ADSL Service transfer from an LLU provider.

I want to speak to someone like AAISP and see if they would be willing to take me (and my moaning) on. I think my line can do much better than it is but is it worth the hassle?

Regardless of which ISP they would still need enough evidence of a fault, If an engineer did visit your home and wasn't able to find any network fault their side that would cause the low sync speed, However if they found issues on your side of the master socket to be at fault the ISP would be charged and no doubt would pass that on to you

My attenuation is 13.8db i have always apart from short periods (dlm) had the full rates I'm around 300-50mtrs from the FTTC cab

but as said the incoming BT cable in close proximity to the mains power isn't good, and not just for your bb but probably some of your neighbours also

Edited by tommy45 (Fri 11-Sep-15 20:38:28)

In reply to a post by CaptainJack:

Following my woes in this thread, and Zen's reluctance to help out, I am wondering whether to jump ship before I even started. I am still within the 14 day cancellation period

There is no 14 day cancellation period for Fibre Broadband - the terms you linked to are for ADSL services and set the notice for terminating an active ADSL connection as 14 days to expire on or after the minimum service period. They do not give a cooling off period for an activated service..

Clause 12 of the Fibre Broadband terms and conditions, especially 12.3 and 12.7, gives your rights now your FTTC service is active. You can only end the contract by paying off the entire 12 month minimum period or if the service falls below the standards set out in clause 12.7.


The reality is that you were given an estimate of 50Mbit/s downstream and you've finished up with 85% of that - disappointing, but an estimate is a best guess, not a promise. The state of your wiring, especially the proximity to the incoming electricity feed, sounds sub-optimal but Openreach are unlikely to accept that the circuit is faulty if the only fault is a VDSL2 downstream sync speed 15% below the bottom of the 'clean' range. If Zen sent an Openreach engineer who reported 'no fault found', you'd land up with a visit charge to pay.

It's worth carrying out a quiet line test using a corded phone to see if there's any detectable mains hum on the line. If there is, report a voice fault. If not, there's probably little you can do as Openreach are very unlikely to carry out cabling work in an attempt to improve FTTC speed when there is no outright fault.

There's no guarantee that you will resolve the problem with another ISP. It may be just that your line, or your internal wiring, is not up to it. Unfortunately the marketing "up to 76MBp/s" stuff is just not realistic, nor speed predictions.

I'd probably cancel if I were you. You may be better off keeping with ADSL as its a lot cheaper. Depends on what you you want - if you don't download movies, big files etc then ADSL is fine for browsing, email, Skype etc.

Alas broadband is a funny old world and is not comparable to other services. I get a decent water pressure for what I pay for, my electricity is at the 230V standard (and that's cabled like the phone line) and no problems with gas either. With broadband you are taking a gamble, and many people lose and can do zilch about it. This all comes back to BT and their monopoly over the infrastructure and unwillingness to improve it. Privatisation did nothing to improve their services.

did you have a managed install engineer come and change face place or did you pcp install with no engineer visit

if you had a self install that means your speeds then move to impacted rather than clean as liklely the internal wiring is at faulyt or the wiring behind the socket -- the network will deliver at the termination point -- fastman always recommends a managed install -- you can lose up 5 meg per each extension socket you have in the house

if you had a self install that means your speeds then move to impacted as likely the internal wiring is at fault or the wiring behind the socket -- the network will deliver at the termination point -- fastman always recommends a managed install -- you can lose 5 meg per each extension socket you have in the house

Well, the modem is plugged into the master socket with no extensions, so whatever is before that is not my responsibility but the supplier's (be it BT or Zen or whoever). This is what I wanted checked out.

Totally understand that it's highly possibly (and likely, probable) that switching ISP won't resolve the issue, even if they do decide to get a competent engineer out.

You hit the nail on the head with other utilities - why can't broadband be like that and why does noone care?

In reply to a post by David_W:

There is no 14 day cancellation period for Fibre Broadband - the terms you linked to are for ADSL services and set the notice for terminating an active ADSL connection as 14 days to expire on or after the minimum service period. They do not give a cooling off period for an activated service..

Pants... it's a minefield these contracts. Ah, the corporate world.

Of course, will do various tests, though there are no visible "faults" as such - phone is fine and BB is stable and zippy. Just not as zippy as I think it should be.

The issue is that Zen are not doing a good job at convincing me that the sync is as good as it can be. They are just fobbing me off with "it's within the allowed range" speech. They haven't given me any remotely technical reason as to why the sync is as low as it is. I had far more information from normal users on this form than from Zen - how is this acceptable?

In reply to a post by Fastman2:

if you had a self install that means your speeds then move to impacted rather than clean as liklely the internal wiring is at faulyt or the wiring behind the socket -- the network will deliver at the termination point -- fastman always recommends a managed install -- you can lose up 5 meg per each extension socket you have in the house

Self install. I am getting a new face plate tomorrow for the master socket, though I doubt it will improve things. I am using a normal dangly splitter hanging off the socket that came with the modem.

I have no extensions in my house - no need for them with DECT phones. It's all plugged into the master socket. So there's nothing on my side of the socket that could be wrong.

A quick look on Google shows a lot of problems with DECT phones and ADSL. Not sure if this would apply to FTTC. Have you tried removing the phone?

General advice on Google seems to be to keep the DECT base unit as far from the router/modem as possible.

Anthony.

I'm perhaps in a similar boat with Zen, though I haven't contacted them yet. Had FTTC engineer installed about a month ago. My clean estimate is 80-68 down and 20 up. I'm syncing at 46 down and 10 up. Not sure if that is a big enough difference to declare there is a problem that needs fixing.
The Openreach engineer who did my install seemed pretty good, was here for a couple of hours and involved disconnecting all extensions and fitting / relocating a new master faceplate (to one of the extension points a few metres away from the original master). When I queried the initial slow speed test he spent about another 45 mins double checking and then trying to figure out if there was anything external to the property he could do. As our entire area is served by underground cables he seemed a bit stuck. All the testing he did suggested the line was performing at its maximum (on a gadget he was using it was 100 % of expected).
So maybe it is just what it is, 40/10 seems ok for me but I would have been happier with a 40/20. I probably do need to move down to the Fibre 1 package for the £3 saving. My ADSL 2+ was 20/1.
In my case having the engineer install worked well as to some degree it has reassured me that it could be as good as it gets in the short term. Self install I would have thinking it was all the master socket or extension wiring.

In reply to a post by CaptainJack:

The issue is that Zen are not doing a good job at convincing me that the sync is as good as it can be. They are just fobbing me off with "it's within the allowed range" speech. They haven't given me any remotely technical reason as to why the sync is as low as it is. I had far more information from normal users on this form than from Zen - how is this acceptable?

The reason why the downstream sync speed is acceptable is a commercial reality, not a technical one.

In an ideal world, the sub-optimal nature of the wiring would be noted and appropriate engineering work undertaken to bring your line up to best practice standards.

In the real world, if the speed is not wildly under estimate and there are no phone or broadband faults, Openreach will reject any fault report. If the ISP insists an engineer is sent, the likelihood is that the fault will be closed as 'no fault found' and a visit charge raised. Openreach typically refuse to carry out even relatively cheap cabling work to raise speeds, not least because this will wipe out the wholesale profit on the line for years. It might be worth a fight if the line was way below expectations, but 15% falls into the 'barely worth it' bracket in my opinion. In practice, you will struggle to notice the difference between the 42.5 Mbit/s you have and the 50 Mbit/s you were predicted.

There is no guarantee that remedial work will produce a speed increase. The noise floor might be higher than normal in your area for some reason other than proximity of your wiring to the electricity supply.

I would think your only significant hope of remedial action is if the current setup fails to meet safety standards. As has been pointed out, nothing telephone related should be on the meter backboard, which might give you grounds to argue for regularisation of the line onto an NTE5 free of charge. That is the angle I would be attempting in the circumstances, not arguing on speed grounds.

Though willing to bet that Openreach will contend that they would never have done that sort of wiring in the first place and place the bill for the work with the end-user

What is probably wrong is blindingly obvious is you see a picture of where the line is located, i.e. next or even attached to the mains backboard.

To resolve this information has been given, or request a regularisation visit to fit an NTE5 and argue over who pays the £125+VAT

In reply to a post by CaptainJack:

In reply to a post by David_W:

There is no 14 day cancellation period for Fibre Broadband - the terms you linked to are for ADSL services and set the notice for terminating an active ADSL connection as 14 days to expire on or after the minimum service period. They do not give a cooling off period for an activated service..

Pants... it's a minefield these contracts. Ah, the corporate world.

Of course, will do various tests, though there are no visible "faults" as such - phone is fine and BB is stable and zippy. Just not as zippy as I think it should be.

The issue is that Zen are not doing a good job at convincing me that the sync is as good as it can be. They are just fobbing me off with "it's within the allowed range" speech. They haven't given me any remotely technical reason as to why the sync is as low as it is. I had far more information from normal users on this form than from Zen - how is this acceptable?

Because believe it or not it's not down to Zen to tell you why your phone wiring is not up to optimal standards. You seem to expect too much from them.

David suggested a good point. Do a 17070 quite line test and see what happens. If you get buzzing or noise then it's your phone line that needs looking at - so raise a voice fault with them.

Broadband over copper always has and always will need a good line to work properly. I've been with AAISP and they sold me a router (techs mind not sales) saying it would work when I switched from ADSL to FTTC and now it's in the bin. Don't assume they know what they are on about either.

As Andrew says - being that close to the mains supply is not good. it's going to be causing so much electromagnetic interference I am surprised it's even working.

Edited by deleted (Sat 12-Sep-15 10:44:53)

Andrew is right. Even a non-techie like me can see that from your photographs this installation is a DIY disaster. I can't believe that a BT engineer would stick the incoming box beside the incoming mains, securing it at an angle with what appears to be a single screw. The cable itself appears unsecured and to be bound with insulating tape. Could I suggest a remedy?

Our house/phone is 45 years old and the incoming phone line for the Trimphone (anyone remember those?) was installed from a pole across the road to our gable wall, then round the eaves to about 10m of spare cable in a coil above the mains consumer unit in the hall, terminating in a junction/drop box which led to the master socket in the hall.

The cable coil might have been designed to pick up interference from the mains unit a foot below it, but of course BB hadn't been invented when the GPO installed the line. While I wouldn't dream of shortening the cable myself as BT would reposition it for a mere £230, I removed the securing screws from the box and without disconnection was able to reposition box and cable along the roof ridge well away from any mains cabling. This improved ADSL2 speed by about 10%.

From your photos you may be able to unscrew the box and move your incoming line away from the mains. One might say you might as well disconnect it if necessary as it has already been tampered with, no doubt by the previous owner, though of course you will not do so as it would be an offence. I hope this helps.

Because Broadband and the range of frequencies it uses are totally unlike any of the other utilities technically.


Also it is delivered over the existing phone lines, which by default rather than design, were only intended to handle from DC (0 Hertz or Cycles Per Second) to 4,500 Hz; and basically only one "message" link at a time.

Broadband is highly demanding and with most of the frequencies involved, up to around 17 Mega Hertz, covers the same range as a multi-band radio.

In that radio analogy, using conventional modulation, you have the potential of up to 1,700 "messages" or radio stations, @ 10 KHz each..

So the ability to handle the equivalent over a phone line not intended for the purpose, is close to miraculous.

My lady-wife bought new DECT phones at Christmas 2014; and we quickly had to abandon them, because of problems with our 40/10 BB.

Our much older/earlier DECT phones were reinstated quickly; and have never caused any obvious problems.

if he had had a managed install that probalbly would have rectified by the engineer but as you went for a self install that why the speed if off -- because the speed at the NTE will be fine

Well, in that case it should be priced on the speed you get based on the external infrastructure, not as a fixed 'up to' price. The fact is for most of us on FTTC we have no choice.

Broadband is no different from electricity supply, you need substations within sufficient distance of properties to meet demand. The simple fact is that OR do not provide cabs near enough to some people's properties but still want to charge them based on an unachievable supply, and that just isn't good enough.

As to the 'miraculous' issue, I can assure you that I understand the technical issues - my background is electronics - but this is not a technical issue, it's a commercial one, of mis-selling a product.

The simple fact is that OR do not provide cabs near enough to some people's properties but still want to charge them based on an unachievable supply, and that just isn't good enough.

This rather depends on the proportion of the monthly cost that is used to provide and support the infrastructure and that used to transmit the data. For the most part installation and support costs are independent of the final speed achieved but heavily influenced by the terrain and the like. As with many other things in life it is up to the end user to decide whether the cost is acceptable and shouldn't I feel try to compare that cost to what others are paying for a possibly different service (e.g. cable of FTTP/H) in another location. For example there are many paying more than the OP for a slower ADSL/ADSL2+ service but don't have the option to move to anything faster.

Ultimate solution is a bill split into four components

1. Physical layer
2. Price per Mbps that is based on the maximum speed you can get
3. Tiered speeds so people can pick between 10/2 20/3 40/10. 60/15 and 80/20 product tiers for example - different commit rates apply on these just as with current products
4. Pay per GB downloaded and uploaded

Then people will clearly be able to see what they are paying for and have total transparency.

Yes, this would be much more transparent... if only!

Problem is, you don't know what speed you will actually get until you have had it installed.And then (with BT) you're locked in for 12 months before your can change.

1. Physical layer

And here the costs will again vary user by user, cab by cab, as BT's (or even BDUK's) installation and maintenance costs will vary considerably dependent on location, terrain and number of users served.

And given the permutations and increased billing complexity likely to be much more expensive.

The pay per GB has been tried and no provider has ever made a big success of it

There is lies the rub, almost anyone can get Gigabit over fibre if they pay the price.

Can always try using the Ofcom Code of Practice against an ISP

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/6988-detail-for-n...

Agree MrSaffron. Pay per Gb is difficult as it's hard to know what you will actually use. I recently rebooted my router and withing an hour it told me I'd downloaded 6.9Gb... Why I have no idea, unless it was syncing to the devices on the network (iCloud etc).

I guess no-one knows what the real solution is - pay based on bandwidth , pay based on data transfer.

It's not actually different from electrity and gas when I think about it - it's impossible to compare actual rates between companies as the rate depends on where you live. Of course this is all deliberate and the regulators do nothing to stop it.

I guess no-one knows what the real solution is - pay based on bandwidth , pay based on data transfer.

To which needs to be added the cost of installing and maintaining the infrastructure which is essentially the same regardless of bandwidth or quantity of data transferred. To confuse matters there is line rental which contributes towards the Cu costs, buildings, etc. and paid regardless of whether the end user has or uses FTTC.

EDIT: Not that I am suggesting that this or Andrew's suggestion be adopted. Instead I was trying to bring attention to the fact that many users feel aggrieved that they don't get what they want or expect, pay more than someone else or receive less than someone else. Such is life and society and this needs to be understood and accepted.

Edited by deleted (Sat 12-Sep-15 19:25:49)

I actually fixed the internal cabling removing the ring wire etc before I ever had FTTC installed. I then had an engineer install done. As I live 200-300m from the cabinet I can get the 80M/20M. In fact when the line was tested using the engineers test equipment I could actually get 120M/50M, if that was allowed.

I can push this as hard as I want to, I just wish it was easier. And like people say, there might not be anything I can about it. I will try all the suggestions provided in this thread first before pursuing further action.

What's even more annoying now is that on the first day I was getting 42Mbit and now I am only getting 37Mbit.... gah!

To be frank until you resolve the wiring issues not sure you will get anywhere, and if the wiring is the issue we can expect speeds to keep going down most likely.

You can request Zen to send out an Openreach engineer to resolve wiring with the appropriate charge or do it yourself quietly

Just keep in mind if you do test your wiring it is live and enough to give you a good shock it can power a phone + ringer etc...
A few cores of Cat5e would make a good replacement.

Wiring replaced with a new VDSL face plate away from the power lines without any extensions. No difference.

As a last straw, I am ordered a Billion 8800NL router..

Can Zen do anything else? Adjust SNR margin, fiddle with interleaving or fast path?

Providers have no control over the FTTC DLM

In reply to a post by RichTea23:

Just keep in mind if you do test your wiring it is live and enough to give you a good shock it can power a phone + ringer etc...
A few cores of Cat5e would make a good replacement.

the voltage only rises when their is an incoming call typical voltage is 50v dc and measured in milli-amp's , so little danger of serious injury from electric shock, unless you have a pacemaker fitted maybe

Changing/relocating a Master socket is no big deal , all you need is the tools and parts, & nouse needed to do the job

Edited by tommy45 (Sun 13-Sep-15 23:44:17)

In reply to a post by CaptainJack:

As a last straw, I am ordered a Billion 8800NL router..

Good choice I have that one on my Zen line and it's rock solid. But you clearly new it was a good choice and that's why you ordered it

As Andrew says they have no control over DLM but I am sure they can change the error correction. Maybe thats only on ADSL though.

Here's my readout from the 8800NL

http://postimg.org/image/psiok0s1h/

Interleaver Depth as 1 means no DLM

Edited by deleted (Mon 14-Sep-15 00:07:59)

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Providers have no control over the FTTC DLM

Unless things have changed since I last read the specifications, there are three profiles an ISP can choose between, with differing trade offs between stability and speed. However, this only gives a small and rather indirect amount of control over DLM. In any event, Zen always used to default to the most speed orientated profile.

you forget they can order a change of the profile which is not only control but does a automatic reset?

Change of profile that seems to really just be a change of how the interleaving is used, i.e. profiles are aimed at reducing errors to ensure smooth multicast packet delivery.

In life changes given its openreach are likely to be linked to an engineer visit.

In reply to a post by David_W:

It's worth carrying out a quiet line test using a corded phone to see if there's any detectable mains hum on the line.

Ho hum... the wife made a comment yesterday that the phone line was "noisy", but I thought nothing of it. Today, I had to make a phone call on a land line (people still do that?) and noticed some weird buzzing. I thought it might have been at the other end but then I did a 17070 option 2 quiet line test and the buzzing was still there - this was from the master test socket with the VDSL splitter. I tried a different splitter as I know these can cause similar issues but no difference.

I notified Zen, so let's see what they say.

Uhm... result! Of sorts.

So I phoned Zen to report this noise on the line and after a lot of plugging and unplugging, they agreed to send out an engineer (after being cautiously told about the no-fault-found charge).

An hour later, I get a phone call to say that BT have identified a fault outside my premises and are looking to resolve it by 9PM Thursday. Whether that has anything to do with my issues with BB remains to be seen but at least things are moving.

P.S. It was really quite refreshing to talk to a knowledgeable person at Zen and someone who actually speaks English. Nightmares of dealing with Virgin and BT call centres are still with me.

Edited by deleted (Mon 14-Sep-15 17:45:07)

I mean changing between stable, standard and speed. That definitely does not require an engineer visit. Any CP can order it.

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

I mean changing between stable, standard and speed. That definitely does not require an engineer visit. Any CP can order it.

Agreed. And if you get an AAISP connection you can do this all yourself anytime you like. It's one of the main bits I miss when I had ADSL with them. The line change options were/are mind blowing even on FTTC

In reply to a post by CaptainJack:

Whether that has anything to do with my issues with BB remains to be seen

It will 100% be to do with it. BB needs a healthy line to work optimally!

Received the Billion router today... Hm, this one reckons that my attenuation is 22dB, not 17 like with the Technicolor one.. unless something got worse today. Here are my stats - my interleaver depth is set to 759?! I seem to have a lot of errors too...

Anything else that's out of the ordinary?

In reply to a post by CaptainJack:

Received the Billion router today... Hm, this one reckons that my attenuation is 22dB, not 17 like with the Technicolor one.. unless something got worse today. Here are my stats - my interleaver depth is set to 759?! I seem to have a lot of errors too...

Anything else that's out of the ordinary?

Once it sorts out the errors (hence the high interleaving) it should drop to 1.(maybe after a reboot in 24 hours.