Pings tonight

My connection is really bad tonight & pings are all over the place

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/button/14552...

C:\Users\******>ping -t bbc.co.uk

Pinging bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.78] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1348ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1273ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1478ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1954ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=2018ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=2008ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=2545ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=2110ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=235ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=984ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1180ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1579ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1661ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1550ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=2191ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1684ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1107ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1162ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1353ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1704ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1990ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=1962ms TTL=55

Ping statistics for 212.58.246.78:
Packets: Sent = 22, Received = 22, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 235ms, Maximum = 2545ms, Average = 1594ms

Please do a pathping (same command put "pathping" not "ping")

I can't......

I rebooted the router and now it will simple not connect

Edit its back up, i will do the test.

Edited by derekdel (Thu 11-Feb-16 22:42:15)

After the reboot its back to normal-ish

EDIT.... no its not.. http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/button/14552...




Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.244.22]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
0
1
2 losubs.subs.dsl2.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.87.147]
3 ae1-114.cr1.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.87.169]
4 ge-3-0-0-0.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.45]
5 ge-2-0-0-0.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.41]
6 82.71.254.134
7 * * *
Computing statistics for 150 seconds...
Source to Here This Node/Link
Hop RTT Lost/Sent = Pct Lost/Sent = Pct Address
0
0/ 100 = 0% |
1 0ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0%
0/ 100 = 0% |
2 21ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% losubs.subs.dsl2.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.87.147]
0/ 100 = 0% |
3 27ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae1-114.cr1.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.87.169]
0/ 100 = 0% |
4 29ms 1/ 100 = 1% 1/ 100 = 1% ge-3-0-0-0.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.45]
0/ 100 = 0% |
5 30ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ge-2-0-0-0.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.41]
0/ 100 = 0% |
6 27ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 82.71.254.134

Trace complete



Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.78]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms
2 571 ms 605 ms 626 ms losubs.subs.dsl2.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.87.147]
3 609 ms 626 ms 657 ms ae1-114.cr1.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.87.169]
4 658 ms 639 ms 649 ms ge-3-0-0-0.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.45]
5 701 ms 721 ms 668 ms ge-2-0-0-0.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.41]
6 643 ms 667 ms 690 ms 82.71.254.134
7 * * * Request timed out.
8 677 ms 700 ms 587 ms ae0.er01.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.93]
9 628 ms 668 ms 637 ms 132.185.255.165
10 600 ms 563 ms 606 ms 212.58.246.78

Trace complete.

Edited by derekdel (Thu 11-Feb-16 23:04:43)

I can't help but notice the decline is Zen's performance over the last 6 months...

Is this a provider thats being crippled by Fibre based services and to being ready for the amount of bandwidth actually required or is it kit just not coping...

Either way its not good news and in some ways glad I didn't fork out the ransom money to move my connection to new address.

Things are definitely not well at the moment. If you take a look here:

http://lnx.co/tbb/zen.php

This is my TBB BQM graphs, along with a graph of hourly speed tests using 6x20Mb TBB download test file, split equally between going via IPv4 and IPv6. You'll notice that during late evening, speed test results were slower and also latency higher.

If I was to make a presumption here, I would say this is a Zen problem as there appear to be too many people in varying parts of the country to pin this on BT.

My service is very good between midnight and the start of the next working day when it again becomes crippled.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/18c2a593dbb...

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

I was very happy with my ADSL service but after switching to VDSL I can certainly say that it leaves a lot to be desired.

http://s1070.photobucket.com/user/3MbBik/media/speed...

It is very clear there is an issue in the Zen network affecting some customers. If I had to guess they have a certain type of router which is not behaving. These days it's very unlikely they will make comment on the situation.

It is not affecting all their customer base because since I moved gateway my connection has been spot on, and my pings and speeds tonight are absolutely top notch.

In reply to a post by derekdel:

Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.78]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms
2 571 ms 605 ms 626 ms losubs.subs.dsl2.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.87.147]
3 609 ms 626 ms 657 ms ae1-114.cr1.wh-man.zen.net.uk [62.3.87.169]
4 658 ms 639 ms 649 ms ge-3-0-0-0.cr2.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.45]
5 701 ms 721 ms 668 ms ge-2-0-0-0.cr1.th-lon.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.41]
6 643 ms 667 ms 690 ms 82.71.254.134
7 * * * Request timed out.
8 677 ms 700 ms 587 ms ae0.er01.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.93]
9 628 ms 668 ms 637 ms 132.185.255.165
10 600 ms 563 ms 606 ms 212.58.246.78

Trace complete.

This one could be contention at local exchange or even just your line being maxed out of something. You probably need to investigate further i.e., put a ping monitor on it and see if there is any pattern. Make sure someone in your house isn't torrenting, etc, etc. It is too unclear to point finger at ISP or not from this one.

We have a new business line on a market A exchange that has this graph. it may match up to some others in regards to times?

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/d2df69945f4...

Last night was quite bad again, Zen support are looking into it and to be fair are always helpful and polite.

It's not their fault.

At about 10:30 pm last night I changed routers from a D7000 to an old DGN2200 to see if the router was at fault, both connected to the test socket.

I would just like to know what's wrong as I personally think the services are being stretched by Fibre bandwidth.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/cb0c83d9908...

Are both lines with Zen?

No they are completely different providers on different infrastructure. One line is with Zen on the ADSL

Assuming you have 2 lines in the same house, are they both poor or just the Zen one?

Both lines at the same property and only the BTW supplied line is at fault. When both lines where supplied by Zen on the BTW they would show similar problems at the same time.

So the problem could be either Zen or BTW?

Yes it could be either....

I will have an update tomorrow.

If your exchange is unbundled LLU may be the answer. I had the same problems with Zen line and Enta Broadband. Always shied away from anything TT, but took the plunge one I was assured I would not lose my number should I move away. Since sorting line faults with Pulse8 I have not looked back and line is perfect. Not a dropped packet on my BQM, though no usage showing at the moment as I am at our other property.
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/a80e412f168...

Edited by professor973 (Tue 16-Feb-16 20:35:45)

I have already move onto another provider for the fibre.

There is a problem at the exchange again, just had the phone call.

In reply to a post by derekdel:

I have already move onto another provider for the fibre.

There is a problem at the exchange again, just had the phone call.

Well there is hope that things may be sorted for you. We have had exchange faults at both our properties Pulse8 and EE, though getting them sorted via Openreach was painful to say the least.

lol, getting anything sorted through Openreach is painful... its the reason that I'll be doing my best to avoid them and there infrastructure in future.

Yesterday was just as bad attempting to download a single thread and for the first time in memory even iPlayer ground to a halt several times.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/5577a14cff9...

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

Testing early this morning;

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

But it soon started to crumble under the strain;

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

After 15 happy years with ZEN, and only a few months into my VDSL contract, I am reluctantly having to consider the option of installing a second line in order to allow me the soft option of gently leaving ZEN if Andrews and Arnold manage to provide what I personally consider to be the quality of service that I require in the future.

In reply to a post by 3MbBik:

Yesterday was just as bad attempting to download a single thread and for the first time in memory even iPlayer ground to a halt several times.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/5577a14cff9...

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

Testing early this morning;

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

But it soon started to crumble under the strain;

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

After 15 happy years with ZEN, and only a few months into my VDSL contract, I am reluctantly having to consider the option of installing a second line in order to allow me the soft option of gently leaving ZEN if Andrews and Arnold manage to provide what I personally consider to be the quality of service that I require in the future.

I'm not in a contract anymore, but if I was I'd be pushing hard to be released from it if Zen has no plans to resolve the issue. I'd go as far as taking it to CISAS. I wouldn't want to be forced into paying for a (fairly expensive) service that clearly does not work properly.

Since being moved to another gateway, the issue has improved slightly - no latency/loss problems but daytime speeds (single threaded) are pretty poor and evening speeds just as poor as ever. Overnight both single and multi threaded is flawless. Not what I'd consider a fix and I'm hoping Zen continue investigation.

Are you connected onto Zen's LLU or is the line BT WMBC for backhaul if the later there's a good chance that the problem will follow you if other isp is using BTW

In the time i have been with zen i have experienced issues with throughput and lots of jitter on the tbbqm in the evenings (peak time) on both occasions zen got it sorted both were down to BTW and their Svlan's

Edited by tommy45 (Fri 19-Feb-16 16:19:50)

Hi all,

Myself and my colleagues in the Core Network team have been working with our Tech Support teams investigating reports of possible congestion for a small number of customers.

So far, we haven't been able to identify a cause in our network, or our links to our suppliers, but we are continuing to investigate this.

It's really important that all issues are reported to our Tech Support teams, and I appreciate that some, if not all of you have raised faults relating to speed issues. For any that haven't, please do, so that we can get the complete picture and identify any commonalities.

If any further clarification is needed, please let me know and I'll see what I can do, however the best path for information is the fault report process with our Tech Support teams.

Hope this helps,

Jon

Here is the issue. Last time this happened a year ago it took Zen nearly three weeks of me pestering them to get moving on the fault. Two of those weeks arguing about sending out an engineer during working hours to report back that no fault was found [i would get charged]. The fault was late evening. Long story short it had taken nearly 3 months of heartache to get a fix.

Not to mention BT categorically denying there was a fault for week on week!

It happened a further 2 times last year without the severity of the earlier fault, the fault being a congested exchange.

I was told yesterday that I would be getting something done on BT side but now BT are coming over and saying that they need a fail on a TAP3.

So I will have to sit for weeks waiting on the line degrading enough to get a move on with BT.
They have a hot Vlan [i think that is right] that my line is connected onto.

It just goes from bad to worse and a quick patch up to silence the moaning.


A bit annoyed to be honest and a fair bit disappointed as I know there is a problem

Any help or ideas from the community would be appreciated

Alas Tavistock is not a Zen POP but TT Wholesale backhaul is an option

Yesterday I searched through my junk box and stuck an old discarded Wi-Fi adaptor on the outside of my study window. At a range of approximately 45 metres the rather weak BT Wi-Fi with Fon guest carrier from my neighbour's Homehub managed to provide the same 8Mbps down with 9Mbps up speeds irrespective of whether it was single or multiple thread from their BT retail 40/10 VDSL. Earlier that afternoon my 80/20 Zen VDSL was only managing a single thread download of 5.7Mbps.
Contacting friends who had Zen 40/10 VDSL via the Penryn exchange in Cornwall revealed that their 40/10 service had a single thread download that was around 30% of their multiple thread download. Another who was served via the Hayle exchange in Cornwall was similarly reduced down to 22%.
I then contacted friends on these two exchanges who were using BT Homehubs and tests revealed practically no degradation between their single and multithread VDSL download speeds.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

In reply to a post by 3MbBik:

Yesterday I searched through my junk box and stuck an old discarded Wi-Fi adaptor on the outside of my study window. At a range of approximately 45 metres the rather weak BT Wi-Fi with Fon guest carrier from my neighbour's Homehub managed to provide the same 8Mbps down with 9Mbps up speeds irrespective of whether it was single or multiple thread from their BT retail 40/10 VDSL. Earlier that afternoon my 80/20 Zen VDSL was only managing a single thread download of 5.7Mbps.
Contacting friends who had Zen 40/10 VDSL via the Penryn exchange in Cornwall revealed that their 40/10 service had a single thread download that was around 30% of their multiple thread download. Another who was served via the Hayle exchange in Cornwall was similarly reduced down to 22%.
I then contacted friends on these two exchanges who were using BT Homehubs and tests revealed practically no degradation between their single and multithread VDSL download speeds.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

I'm not a million miles from your friends (or you, I guess, if you're in Devon) and I have similar issues. I have remote access to a BT connection in the next village over (same fibre headend in all likelihood) and it's rock solid.

My connection is slightly "better" at the moment - http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html... - I love how the x6 graph looks so graceful and flat-out, if only the single thread result was the same

Edited by deleted (Tue 23-Feb-16 11:07:55)

The TAP3 result thing seems to be common practice ,and probably is down to BT rejecting reports on their network being at fault they will see it as more conclusive because it removes most other factors ,but they can give different results , this can because the problem is ISP side, or End users, or sometimes because the TAP3 test node is often on a different part of BT's network But the BT tester is multi threaded and isn't as accurate as other speed testers

My friends are not with Zen on same exchange and they dont have this problem. So we know its Zen

Its not ZEN at fault but they in my opinion are not pushing the matter hard enough!
They [BT] will only accept a complete fail on a TAP3 and right now everytime I try that I am basically resetting my connection as the line has not degraded enough as yet

This looks and feels bad it takes ages for anything to load.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/34cf3781b32...

I am also seeing poor performance on my Zen connection and have reported it.
In 10 weeks of being with Zen, I havent been impressed with my service and am questioning why I am paying a premium for it.

I wouldn't say it's a premium over what the price should be for decent well serviced broadband, but the problem is, that many end up with something no better than the cheapo services. but still many praise them anr rubbish anything TT, which is decent customer service apart.

Fair comment, I dont mind paying a "premium price" if I get the premium service but so far I have not been receiving that.

If I dont get my congestion issue sorted I'm seriously considering terminating the Zen contract based on them not providing the agreed level of service. If I do that, I will consider an ISP providing service via Talk Talk Business but need to investigate a bit further before committing to anything. Do Talk Talk Business use any BT Wholesale infrastructure other than local FTTC cab -> Exchange?

In reply to a post by professor973:

I wouldn't say it's a premium over what the price should be for decent well serviced broadband, but the problem is, that many end up with something no better than the cheapo services. but still many praise them anr rubbish anything TT, which is decent customer service apart.

£59 + VAT... that seems to be paying a premium to me...

I would cancel it too... thats a joke!

I couldn't speak for TT business though some have siad they're alright... I'm with BT Residential at the moment and can't say I'm having any issues compared to when I was with Zen in November/December...

I assume you require something Business orientated?

In reply to a post by mlmclaren:

I assume you require something Business orientated?

Yes. I live in an area with poor ADSL and beam this fibre connection to me using ubiquiti wifi dishes at a premises 5km from me that is close to the nearest FTTC cab. The reason I've gone for a business connection is ultimately to allow me to share out the bandwidth with less tech savvy neighbours who are all also struggling with poor ADSL without violating usage T&Cs of a residential connection.

oh right ok... well I would say have a look at TalkTalk Business directly... I assume that setup you have uses has a block of IP's with it too?

It sounds cool!

Of course, BT do business packages https://business.bt.com/products/broadband/ but do you think they would be affected by the congestion like Zen is?

Yeah, easy access to fixed IPv4 addresses was one of the appeals of going with Zen in first place, their business package comes with a block of 8 as standard and you can access more with justification and small admin charge.

I'd prefer an UK based ISP reselling TTB to be honest, my own experience of TT support on a residential line wasnt great, I'd prefer to be able to call and speak to someone rather than have to post on a community forum and wait weeks for a response

Pulse8 sounds good for you then!

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Of course, BT do business packages https://business.bt.com/products/broadband/ but do you think they would be affected by the congestion like Zen is?

That's if BT are causing the issue on the connection!

When I discovered that I could download a single thread at twice my Zen crippled speed by using my neighbour's BT Homehub guest Wi-Fi with Fon service on a weak carrier, I reluctantly decided to migrate away after only 3 months and put the cost down to experience.
For nearly 15 years Zen served me well, but their recent backhaul does not support an 80-20 VDSL service at a level of quality that is acceptable to me at the time that I wish to use it.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results.html...

Edited by deleted (Sat 27-Feb-16 11:34:21)

Hmmm, yes, fibre based services certainly seem to be deviding the big players and small players...

Suppose the small player's will just need to catchup

In reply to a post by craski:

I am also seeing poor performance on my Zen connection and have reported it.
In 10 weeks of being with Zen, I havent been impressed with my service and am questioning why I am paying a premium for it.

your graph is worse than anything I ever seen on plusnet, if I am going to offer an opinion, I dont think BTw is the cause of that congestion.

i left zen 3 years ago after being a customer for many years as performance back then on fibre and customer support was not good, everyone at the time poopooed the fact i went with sky and said it would be rubbish, far from it unlimited its cheaper and if anything its actually gotten faster i now max out at 76mbs and 19.1 upload, pings to our game server in Amsterdam are now at 16ms

C:\Users\Css>ping bbc.co.uk

Pinging bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.78] with 32 bytes of dat
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=12ms TTL=57
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=57
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=12ms TTL=57
Reply from 212.58.246.78: bytes=32 time=12ms TTL=57

Ping statistics for 212.58.246.78:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 12ms, Maximum = 13ms, Average = 12ms

its time for Zen to stop living off past reputation and actually invest some money into living up to the hype imho

In reply to a post by cssuk:

its time for Zen to stop living off past reputation and actually invest some money into living up to the hype imho

I agree with that completely, they used to be rock solid and without compromise.That's coming from a long standing customer.