Zen and PSTN switch off

I'm currently on a grandfathered Unlimited Fibre 4 plan (from their old g.fast plans) and am wondering what impact the PSTN switch off might have on that.

I don't actually use my phone service and only have the phone line to access the internet, so I don't care to replace the "phone" part of my service with anything else, but I'd like to stay on my grandfathered plan as the availability of g.fast means I'm lower priority for FTTP, and as Zen no longer offer g.fast any plan changes would either mean a downgrade to VDSL or an ISP switch after 20 years.

It's also not clear to me what happens to the "line rental" component of the bill.

Maybe I'll have FTTP as an option by the time 2025 rolls around, but I won't hold my breath.

In reply to a post by MrDoom:

I'm currently on a grandfathered Unlimited Fibre 4 plan (from their old g.fast plans) and am wondering what impact the PSTN switch off might have on that.

I don't actually use my phone service and only have the phone line to access the internet, so I don't care to replace the "phone" part of my service with anything else, but I'd like to stay on my grandfathered plan as the availability of g.fast means I'm lower priority for FTTP, and as Zen no longer offer g.fast any plan changes would either mean a downgrade to VDSL or an ISP switch after 20 years.

It's also not clear to me what happens to the "line rental" component of the bill.

Maybe I'll have FTTP as an option by the time 2025 rolls around, but I won't hold my breath.

My understanding is that the PSTN switch off is intrinsically tied to the FTTP rollout. If they can't move you to FTTP, they can't pull out the PSTN kit.

So, short of Zen pulling a fast one, you can remain on your current service until FTTP becomes available, which should be by 2025.

There's no line rental on FTTP, you just pay for a VoIP service for whichever provider you choose. This is quite interesting, as the line rental was always to pay for the installation an upkeep of the copper network, so it seems there's no "fund" anymore for the upkeep of the FTTP network.

AndyPandy

PSTN switch off is NOT intrinsically linked to FTTP rollout. It will happen regardless of whether you have FTTP!

If you only have FTTC or ADSL2+ you will be moved to a VOIP service over those mediums.over the copper. The new service is agnostic to the underlying delivery path, ( It could also be delivered over a fixed 4g/5g mobile service if that is all you can get, as in BB USO areas).

The upkeep of the copper network will be funded from the BB price which do not decrease from the bundled BB+ PSTN price by a significant factor.

Weird, I thought I had edited my reply to include this fact. i.e. SoGEA if FTTP not available.

There's still to the stop-sell at 75% FTTP availability though.

In reply to a post by AndyPandy:

Weird, I thought I had edited my reply to include this fact. i.e. SoGEA if FTTP not available.

There's still to the stop-sell at 75% FTTP availability though.

Which makes zero difference to any property where FTTP is not available. You can continue to order, modify, and cease copper services at these properties, indefinitely, until such time as FTTP is available.

However, there is a completely separate PSTN stop-sell, which applies nationwide from Sep 2023. From that date, copper users will only be able to order SOGEA or SOGFast - or SOTAP where those aren't available.

Also importantly this doesn't mean that people will have FTTP by 2025.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

Which makes zero difference to any property where FTTP is not available. You can continue to order, modify, and cease copper services at these properties, indefinitely, until such time as FTTP is available.

However, there is a completely separate PSTN stop-sell, which applies nationwide from Sep 2023. From that date, copper users will only be able to order SOGEA or SOGFast - or SOTAP where those aren't available.

This is the position I have been left in by Oprenreach. They will not supply FTTP unless I pay an stupid amount for the ducting they chose to not install at the time. They have a stop sell on the copper lines but BT did not give me a choice of SoGEA, but rather re-instated my old landline phone plus the VDSL 80/20

When my contract is up later in the year, it will be interesting to see what BT offer by way of a Broadband supply. I don't need a phone line and would be quite happy with SoGEA which I assume will be at a lower cost.

I lay the blame for all this squarely with Openreach and the stupid planning of ducting to the area.

SOGEA is not a meaningfully lower price than WLR3+FTTC, maintaining the copper pair still needs to be paid for somehow.

In reply to a post by Adduxi:

This is the position I have been left in by Oprenreach. They will not supply FTTP unless I pay an stupid amount for the ducting they chose to not install at the time.

I've previously seen your post below, how far exactly would the ducting need to go? have you contacted the CEO department at Openreach and if so what did they say, I had some DIG and run the ducting myself but it was all on private land where I suspect yours isn't.

In reply to a post by Adduxi:

Our copper is also DIG, and Openreach refused to cable the last two houses on the road, mine included, as the ducting from two doors up runs in the opposite direction to serve the other 99% of houses. They would, of course, install the ducting at my expense for a mere +£6K .....

Moral of this - Don't expect to get FTTP even if the Openreach checker says you can !!

In reply to a post by Adduxi:

When my contract is up later in the year, it will be interesting to see what BT offer by way of a Broadband supply. I don't need a phone line and would be quite happy with SoGEA which I assume will be at a lower cost.

If you're with BT (retail) then the service will be be SoGEA plus digital voice, and I'd expect it to be charged exactly the same as FTTC plus analogue voice.

If they decide to start offering a data-only SoGEA service, then I'd also expect it to be the same price, as the only difference is to drop the digital voice OTT service, which doesn't really cost them anything (indeed, it generates them incremental extra revenue, should you ever make or receive any calls)

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by AndyPandy:

Weird, I thought I had edited my reply to include this fact. i.e. SoGEA if FTTP not available.

There's still to the stop-sell at 75% FTTP availability though.

Which makes zero difference to any property where FTTP is not available. You can continue to order, modify, and cease copper services at these properties, indefinitely, until such time as FTTP is available.

However, there is a completely separate PSTN stop-sell, which applies nationwide from Sep 2023. From that date, copper users will only be able to order SOGEA or SOGFast - or SOTAP where those aren't available.

I want to move some of my customers that can only get ADSL to SOTAP but I can't find anyone selling it yet.

Thanks
Dan

Okay, a lot of new acronyms there, but it sounds like even if FTTP isn't available, worst case I'd just get moved from g.fast to SOGfast (which from what I can tell is just g.fast but without the voice component).

Is that something Openreach can just do without involvement from Zen, or does it need different equipment, billing, etc.

In reply to a post by MrDoom:

Okay, a lot of new acronyms there, but it sounds like even if FTTP isn't available, worst case I'd just get moved from g.fast to SOGfast (which from what I can tell is just g.fast but without the voice component).

Is that something Openreach can just do without involvement from Zen, or does it need different equipment, billing, etc.

No, the ISP has to order a migration from Openreach. There are no equipment changes, the voice port is turned off. There are changes to how the circuit is identified - it was the directory number (DN), with SoGEA/SOGfast it has an access line ID (ALID) instead.

As Zen discontinued G.fast some time ago https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/08/isp-ze... all you can really try is phoning them and trying to get a definitive answer on their migration plans for current G.fast customers in areas where FTTP is not going to be deployed any time soon.

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

I want to move some of my customers that can only get ADSL to SOTAP but I can't find anyone selling it yet.

It is not generally available, the Openreach 'Introduction to SOTAP' slides say: "Pending CP consumption, Openreach aims to move to Early Market Deployment Launch in Q1 2023/24 and consider options for full commercial launch."

Yeah, I've seen that but I have had some of the suppliers telling me I need to move the customers off ADSL but then say there is nothing to move to.

Thanks Dan

In reply to a post by dect:

I've previously seen your post below, how far exactly would the ducting need to go? have you contacted the CEO department at Openreach and if so what did they say, I had some DIG and run the ducting myself but it was all on private land where I suspect yours isn't.

I've not been in Contact with the Openreach CEO. Would there be any milage in that do you think?

The nearest point is about 50 metres along the footpath, with a entrance a driveway next door, so nothing on private land.
Recently I've also been wondering if a telegraph pole would be a cheaper option, as I can see the Cabinet from my kitchen window and that "as the crow files" is less than the ducting option..

I personally would suggest raising it with the CEO's office as you have nothing to lose if it doesn't go anywhere. Be polite and clear about what has happened and what an alternative solution could be by using poles. Remember there is a limit for fibre spans so if it exceeds that it wouldn't be workable.

In reply to a post by danielhyde:

Yeah, I've seen that but I have had some of the suppliers telling me I need to move the customers off ADSL but then say there is nothing to move to.

Thanks Dan

You have a couple of years before you need to do anything, and it's probably going to take nearly that long before the least attractive products in terms of revenue and ability to be marketed become available. I'm not convinced SOTAP is going to be where industry goes because it doesn't assist Openreach with exchange closures, I would expect some LTE-based solution to win out.

In reply to a post by jpm:

You have a couple of years before you need to do anything

Only for existing services.

For anyone changing providers or moving into premises with only ADSL available there needs to be a replacment available in 7 months time.

There is no two year wait. Zen are moving customers over to sogea asap. They say there is no contractual change, however a move to digital voice well before pstn switch off is clearly a contractual change and increased cost? This needs to be clarified.

In reply to a post by Zonedout:

There is no two year wait. Zen are moving customers over to sogea asap. They say there is no contractual change, however a move to digital voice well before pstn switch off is clearly a contractual change and increased cost? This needs to be clarified.

If your contract has no mention of how they provide their voice services and it is the same price to you then there is no contractual change.

It's how BT and others are moving their customers to Digital Voice, mid contract. The contract says they will provide voice for a set price. Delivery method isn't specified in the contract.

In reply to a post by dect:

I personally would suggest raising it with the CEO's office as you have nothing to lose if it doesn't go anywhere. Be polite and clear about what has happened and what an alternative solution could be by using poles. Remember there is a limit for fibre spans so if it exceeds that it wouldn't be workable.

He's nor Openreach's customer, though, so contacting the CEO won't help him, surely?

In reply to a post by ParksidePeter:

He's nor Openreach's customer, though, so contacting the CEO won't help him, surely?

This is a build issue relating to new Openreach infrastructure so yes contacting Openreach is the right thing to try. If we was talking about issues on the existing infrastructure (that serves him) then he would need to go to his ISP.

I asked, but it seems I have to hope for FTTP or move to another ISP willing to offer SOGfast when the time comes. It sucks, but I do understand if Zen want to clear out their grandfathered products from this switchover.

Thank you for your query - as far as I am aware we do not have any plans for a SoGEA equivalent to the G.Fast speeds however if there was any change in thinking with regards to this you would be of course notified accordingly. We do have 2 suppliers - Openreach and Cityfibre so hopefully between them, one will be able to provide full fibre in the area by the 2025 switch off.

As an aside, I do like that whenever I have to deal with Zen CS (which is very rare... maybe 5 times in 20 years) they're always "yeah, we understand what you're asking, and here's the actual info you need".

Edited by MrDoom (Wed 08-Feb-23 13:15:13)

I'd be very surprised if an LTE solution did win out.
Most of my customers stuck on ADSL get poor mobile signal if any.

Thanks
Dan

Slightly off-tangent : I have a copper line from BT for my phone service - no modem/router/internet access involved. If BT scrap the copper line, will they supply me with a modem/router free of charge to keep my phone service working ?

In reply to a post by kitcat:

AndyPandy

PSTN switch off is NOT intrinsically linked to FTTP rollout. It will happen regardless of whether you have FTTP!

If you only have FTTC or ADSL2+ you will be moved to a VOIP service over those mediums.over the copper. The new service is agnostic to the underlying delivery path, ( It could also be delivered over a fixed 4g/5g mobile service if that is all you can get, as in BB USO areas).

The upkeep of the copper network will be funded from the BB price which do not decrease from the bundled BB+ PSTN price by a significant factor.

If you have just a landline then they will need to provide you with a Smart Hub 2 to make VOIP (Digital Voice) calls.
I expect they will launch a smaller devices for those with just landlines.

If you have a landline from BT and broadband from another provider over the same line then this arrangement will no longer work after the PSTN switch over.
You would require 2 lines to have 2 services from 2 providers in future.

Precisely : through an accident of history (going back to the days of dial-up) I have 2 landlines - one from BT which is purely for my telephone service, and a second one from ZEN who rent me the line and provide my broadband (ZEN cost is £30 / month total). Hence my question about BT. I will go FTTP with ZEN this year.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

If you have just a landline then they will need to provide you with a Smart Hub 2 to make VOIP (Digital Voice) calls.
I expect they will launch a smaller devices for those with just landlines.

Given the diminishing number of PSTN only circuits I doubt it would be worthwhile to develop and maintain a separate VoIP-only box.

Many VoIP ATAs and DECT base units support PPPoE so could be directly attached to a FTTP ONT - however I haven't seen any providers offering the 0.5/0.5 FTTP service, it is difficult enough to find 40/10.

BT Business already provide managed VoIP desk and DECT base solutions which will still work with a third-party router, it would just need BT Retail to adapt the business offerings with PPPoE and to fit in with their management systems if they did want a phone-only solution.