For Bob Pullen or other PlusNet staff : Market A

Hi,
hopefully you have had time to review the new Ofcom proposals.

Unfortunately all the gobledygok and acronyms went way over my head !

As a Market 1 victim I was hoping that Ofcom would scrap the Market 1/2/3 classification,
it hasn't brought any competition to our 1500 lines semi-rural exchange and now it never will....!

Can you tell me, as Market A, would we still have to pay DOUBLE the price ?
Thanks, regards,
Martin

I don't know anything about an ofcom review but I'd certainly like to pay less

Annoying that people I know a few miles away pay much less than me. Especially now with most firms like sky and talktalk charging the same for fibre nationwide wherever fibre is available. I think plus.net may now be one of the only ones to charge extra for fibre in some exchanges. I do hope they rethink. Moving providers is a pain.

The TT website is a bit confusing, but there appear to be only three broadband products now. ADSLx at £6.50 (after the introductory free period), FTTC 38Mbps at £10, (or is that £6.50 + £10?), and similarly FTTC 76Mbps at £15 (+£6.50?).

Sky seems to have ADSLx at £7.50 and FTTC at £20. The last I heard that is 38Mbps though you can get 76Mbps by ringing up. I don't know its price.

Both of them do force you to take LLU phone as well. PlusNet just charges you for broadband setup if you don't take their (non-LLU) phone.

BT itself also requires you to take their non-LLU phone, with ADSLx at £16, 38Mbps FTTC at £23 and 76Mbps FTTC at £26.

I'm puzzled as to where you got your facts .
_{Edit - typo.}

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 20-Jul-13 23:59:14)

In reply to a post by martinsq:

Can you tell me, as Market A, would we still have to pay DOUBLE the price ?

You mean like you would have to with any other supplier, on all exchanges?

I don't see OFCOM reviewing private companies' pricing structures. All they can do is regulate the wholesale prices that BT charges these companies.

EE, which is similar to PN in that it supplies BTw based products, charges an extra £10 pm (doubling standard ADSL prices) in out-of-network areas and TT, which is LLU in many areas, charges an extra £15.32 pm (over tripling standard ADSL prices) in out-of-network areas.

How is this any diff from PN's Market 1 pricing?

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In reply to a post by mnbvcxz:

Especially now with most firms like sky and talktalk charging the same for fibre nationwide wherever fibre is available.

No, TT charge £15.32 pm extra for all its products outside its LLU areas.

@RobertoS: I read it that the +£6.50 pm is charged on top of all Fibre prices as Superpowered Fibre Broadband is only available to existing TalkTalk Essentials or Plus customers.

Market 1 may not have brought competition to your exchange, and I do not think that was the idea. I am also on a market 1 exchange but there are now other operators here but as the classification has not changed we still have to pay extra. If there is a change that will resolve that anomaly then I would certainly appreciate that.

Plusnet are one of the few or maybe the only ISP who pass on some savings to the end user gained by BTw charging them and other ISPs lower fees in the exchanges that have been classified by OFCOM as mkt 2 and 3 exchanges due to some sort of LLU provision within the exchange.

Fibre Pro £30 / month
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/isp/sky.html

The £7.50 Sky price assumes you take a TV service too, £10 otherwise

In reply to a post by martinsq:

Hi,
hopefully you have had time to review the new Ofcom proposals.

Unfortunately all the gobledygok and acronyms went way over my head !

As a Market 1 victim I was hoping that Ofcom would scrap the Market 1/2/3 classification,
it hasn't brought any competition to our 1500 lines semi-rural exchange and now it never will....!

Can you tell me, as Market A, would we still have to pay DOUBLE the price ?
Thanks, regards,
Martin

I have read this entire thread as of 21/07/2013 11:12 and find that most, if not all, of the responses given seem to ignore the fact that you are a Market 1 subscriber and that web site prices are based on having a Market 2/3 service.

Market 1 "victims" do indeed pay **a lot** more for Internet services and are forced to use BT retail, or a reseller of their services, if FTTC is required. Currently my ADSL service is provided by TalkTalk over a BT line and the combined monthly rental of line and Internet costs me £32.29 + £15.45 = £47.74

The TalkTalk web site tells me I can have their "Fibre Large [76Mb]" for £15 + line rental of £14.95 = £29.95 but that price is for Level 2/3 exchanges ONLY. My exchange is not LLU enabled so I have to choose a BT Service.

So checking out PlusNet I am told that I can have -
Unlimited fibre broadband, 80/20 for £46.80 per month including VAT.
+ Line rental with anytime UK calls for £17.40 per month including VAT.
Monthly total £64.20

Admittedly this is for the business class service as it offers a faster response time during a fault, more experienced agents for any over the phone queries and a different traffic management platform to a residential customer. If those "bells and whistles" are not required then the residential service comes in at £43.99

So the facts speak for themselves; a Level 1 victim will find his costs between 50% to 100% higher than someone just a few miles away on a Level 2/3 exchange and has to put up additionally with a restricted choice of ISPs.

Oddly enough with PlusNet, only a residential customer can opt for 12 months line rental up front payment.

Well this is the quote, in an email, from PlusNet. I thought about IDNET but their response was nothing more than saying their web prices are correct which leaves me with uncertainty if they really mean Level 1 exchanges.

My exchange is Elstead with a RFS date of September for FTTC. Perhaps next month, ADSL2 will be available. I am connected to cabinet #1 which is about 400 meters away.

So with due respect to the OP in hijacking this thread but my exchange, like him, also supports around 1500 lines in a semi-rural area. We pay dearly for living out in the sticks, don't we? Of course we are grateful for BDUK in bringing us FTTC otherwise we really would be in a communications black hole!

A nice rant, but full of holes I'm afraid.

Market 1 "victims" do indeed pay **a lot** more for Internet services and are forced to use BT retail, or a reseller of their services

No ISP resells BT Retail services.

The TalkTalk web site tells me I can have their "Fibre Large [76Mb]" for £15 + line rental of £14.95 = £29.95 but that price is for Level 2/3 exchanges ONLY

Not exactly. I haven't checked all the M2 exchanges in the country, but it is highly likely there are some where TalkTalk cannot (a) supply their LLU product at all, and/or (b) supply their "Fibre Large" product. Nor do all M2/3 exchanges have FTTC.

So the facts speak for themselves; a Level 1 victim will find his costs between 50% to 100% higher than someone just a few miles away on a Level 2/3 exchange and has to put up additionally with a restricted choice of ISPs.

That is simply incorrect in many cases. A huge number of Level 1 exchanges now have one or more LLU suppliers - the classification was in December 2010.

I thought about IDNET but their response was nothing more than saying their web prices are correct which leaves me with uncertainty if they really mean Level 1 exchanges.

There's the nub of so many people's misunderstanding. Of BT Wholesale based ISPs only PlusNet offer lower prices at M2/3 exchanges. All other ISPs, including IDNet, charge the same price at all exchanges, usually more than the PlusNet M1 price. EE is an exception, an IIRC there is one other, where there is higher pricing than their normal one in exchanges that they did not have LLU'ed when they were an ISP not a vISP.

Perhaps next month, ADSL2 will be available.

What a shame that it won't be ADSL2+.

I am connected to cabinet #1 which is about 400 meters away.

Is that 200 houses then, with a gas and electricity meter in each?

If you are going to criticise earlier responses, at least get your facts right.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Market 1 'victims' do indeed pay **a lot** more for Internet services and are forced to use BT retail, or a reseller of their services

No, they are using BT Wholesale services. Only BT Retail uses BT Retail services and they don't price by market area.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

The TalkTalk web site tells me I can have their 'Fibre Large [76Mb]' for £15 + line rental of £14.95 = £29.95 but that price is for Level 2/3 exchanges ONLY.

No again, that price is for TT non-LLU exchanges. TT don't operate by market areas at all.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 21-Jul-13 14:00:48)

In reply to a post by brightd:

If there is a change that will resolve that anomaly then I would certainly appreciate that.

BT Wholesale has a monopoly on ADSL provision at market 1 exchanges, so they could charge whatever they want and customers have to pay it, or go without ADSL.

Which is why Ofcom cap the amount which BT Wholesale can charge ISPs on market 1 exchanges. Any change in wholesale prices will be because Ofcom force BT Wholesale to drop their wholesale price further.

Edited by Oliver341 (Sun 21-Jul-13 12:57:39)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

If you are going to criticise earlier responses, at least get your facts right.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Market 1 'victims' do indeed pay **a lot** more for Internet services and are forced to use BT retail, or a reseller of their services

No, they are using BT Wholesale services. Only BT Retail uses BT Retail services and they don't price by market area.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

The TalkTalk web site tells me I can have their 'Fibre Large [76Mb]' for £15 + line rental of £14.95 = £29.95 but that price is for Level 2/3 exchanges ONLY.

No again, that price is for TT non-LLU exchanges. TT don't operate by market areas at all.

Please accept that tiny errors can slip into a posting. Of course I meant to say BT Wholesale.

And as for TT, Elstead exchange, as I am lead to believe, will not be unbundled. Since to get TTs FTTC service you have to take **their** line rental, so in my book that means I won't be able to have a FTTC service from them. If I have got my facts wrong on that then I would be obviously delighted to run with them. I won't hold my breath though on that one. Your elaboration on your statement would be welcomed.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

And as for TT, Elstead exchange, as I am lead to believe, will not be unbundled. Since to get TTs FTTC service you have to take **their** line rental, so in my book that means I won't be able to have a FTTC service from them. If I have got my facts wrong on that then I would be obviously delighted to run with them.

That's an interesting question, and the only thing to do is ask them.

They insist on your having line rental and calls with them, but that isn't quite the same thing as insisting on an LLU line. They do WLR just like all non-LLU ISPs. I'm not sure what BT Wholesale ADSLx products they sell on those exchanges - at one time it was limited to 8Mbps but I don't know if that has changed.

The actual question is whether or not they do BT Wholesale FTTC , as the backhaul and handover capacity they have for non-LLU is reputedly dreadfully low even for ADSL2+.

Non-LLU TalkTalk has a terrible reputation, as does Sky's, and O2 and Orange did. I really do think that TT FTTC on a non-LLU exchange, even if they would supply it, would be a false economy.

I guess a lot of the errors I made in my posting is knowing what the definition really is of a Level 1 exchange. I always thought it meant that you could only choose an ISP that supplied your internet service via BTW and that LLU was unavailable. So please correct me on that perception.

I have watched, and spoken to the engineers, working on cabinet #1 and the adjacent FTTC cabinet. It seems highly likely that it serves around 200 houses. To all those properties, gas and electricity is available. Why you asked that, I've no idea. I gather there are 7 original cabinets connected to the exchange of which 6 now have an adjacent FFTC cabinet with most powered up and interlinking cabling but the fibre is not yet blown to any.

21CN WBC status has now slipped to 31/10/2013
FTTC status: RFS date set : 01/09/2013
So the thought of using ADSL2 as a stepping stone to FTTC is a bit pointless now.

However, the basic premise of both myself and the OP remains the same; we pay more for an FTTC service because we are connected to a rural exchange.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

BT Wholesale has a monopoly on ADSL provision at market 1 exchanges

BT Wholesale had a monopoly on market 1 exchanges at the date that the classification was made. However, in my case and many others, BTW no longer has that monopoly. TalkTalk LLU is now also available at my exchange but as the classification has not been updated I do not make the saving with PlusNet that other uses on market 2/3 exchanges do.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

And as for TT, Elstead exchange, as I am lead to believe, will not be unbundled. Since to get TTs FTTC service you have to take **their** line rental, so in my book that means I won't be able to have a FTTC service from them. If I have got my facts wrong on that then I would be obviously delighted to run with them.

That's an interesting question, and the only thing to do is ask them.

They insist on your having line rental and calls with them, but that isn't quite the same thing as insisting on an LLU line. They do WLR just like all non-LLU ISPs. I'm not sure what BT Wholesale ADSLx products they sell on those exchanges - at one time it was limited to 8Mbps but I don't know if that has changed.

The actual question is whether or not they do BT Wholesale FTTC , as the backhaul and handover capacity they have for non-LLU is reputedly dreadfully low even for ADSL2+.

Non-LLU TalkTalk has a terrible reputation, as does Sky's, and O2 and Orange did. I really do think that TT FTTC on a non-LLU exchange, even if they would supply it, would be a false economy.

A terrific answer which helps me greatly in deciding which ISP to run with once I can order FTTC. It looks as though it will be PlusNet but IDNET looks a cheaper option.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Your elaboration on your statement would be welcomed.

I think it was quite clear! I was talking solely about TT's pricing by their areas, not about their T&Cs. If you don't want to put your line with TT then you can't take a new product with them. It is now a condition that you must take a BB + landline package with them. When you joined them you were able buy BB only from them. Altho' I can't see the advantage of going with TT outside their LLU area to get BTw ADSL rather than going with one of the BTw based ISPs.

As you are already with TT BB only, perhaps they will let you upgrade to FFTC only when it becomes available at your exchange.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

I guess a lot of the errors I made in my posting is knowing what the definition really is of a Level 1 exchange. I always thought it meant that you could only choose an ISP that supplied your internet service via BTW and that LLU was unavailable. So please correct me on that perception.

That was the major determinant, but not the only one, and it relates to a point in time - in this case some time in 2010, with the list being issued in December 2010. It does not automatically get changed when LLU operators are added at an exchange.

Since then, a huge number of exchanges have been LLU'ed by one or more of Sky, TalkTalk and C & W. So LLU is available there, with LLU pricing, but for BT Wholesale ISPs they are still Market 1.

Here is the definitive Ofcom list which is still in effect. The next Ofcom consultation on this topic is under way, see this document, which contains

1.35 Stakeholders have until 20 December 2012 to respond to this Call for Inputs and provide their qualitative views on the matters set out in this paper. In addition, we will be issuing over the coming weeks information requests under Section 135 of the Act to collect the data that will underpin our analysis in the Review.

1.36 Our goal is then to publish a full consultation with our policy proposals in May 2013, with a final statement currently scheduled for March 2014.

If you read through that, you will see that part of the consultation is as to whether or not the existing Market 1,2,3 classification system is still appropriate.

I have watched, and spoken to the engineers, working on cabinet #1 and the adjacent FTTC cabinet. It seems highly likely that it serves around 200 houses. To all those properties, gas and electricity is available. Why you asked that, I've no idea.

Note the "tongue (in cheek)" preceding it, and look up "meter" in a dictionary .

21CN WBC status has now slipped to 31/10/2013
FTTC status: RFS date set : 01/09/2013
So the thought of using ADSL2 as a stepping stone to FTTC is a bit pointless now.

ADSL2 is extremely rare. WBC provides ADSL2+, as do most LLU exchanges whether or not they have WBC. There is a huge difference between ADSL2 and ADSL2+. Very occasionally it is advantageous for technical reasons to downgrade a connection from ADSL2+ to ADSL2.

However, the basic premise of both myself and the OP remains the same; we pay more for an FTTC service because we are connected to a rural exchange.

Nope. Far too simplistic a statement, as explained in my and XRaySpeX's posts.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

It looks as though it will be PlusNet but IDNET looks a cheaper option.

I find that very hard to believe. Are you sure you aren't reading something wrong somewhere?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

it is highly likely there are some where TalkTalk cannot (a) supply their LLU product at all, and/or (b) supply their 'Fibre Large' product.

I have been unable to get TT to offer me ADSL, let alone Fibre, at one of their non-LLU exchanges where FTTC is available. Such a place is OX11 9NS on Exchange BLEWBURY (I cba to find an M2). I think we have seen this before for new custs where a poster was a legacy non-LLU TT cust.

EDIT: Ah, now found an M2. TT does offer me both ADSL & FTTC at YO30 6RE on Exchange CLIFTON . However it makes no mention on the order form of the £15.32 pm surcharge for non-LLU; just on the general site 'Small print'. TT must want the business in M2&3 exchanges where they are not LLU.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sun 21-Jul-13 20:12:57)

GEES...guys,
thanks for all your posts,
BUT you have totally muddied the water !

This is a Plus Net part of the forum.
I am a Plus Net customer ( In my case only sensible option on Market 1 - DO NOT DISCUSS)

I want to know FROM PLUS NET, (that's why it's addressed to THEM !)

what is likely to happen to PLUS Net customers if and when
we become
MARKET A !

Thanks,
regards,
Martin

It seems you are aware of something I, for one, am not. Re

Hi,
hopefully you have had time to review the new Ofcom proposals.

Unfortunately all the gobledygok and acronyms went way over my head !

Please could you give us a link to what you are referring to .

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 22-Jul-13 01:46:56)

If you want to get a response solely from PN, you need to do so on their ticket system.

If, as you did here, you raise it as a discussion in the public domain, then you must expect anyone to chip in with their pennyworth, especially as you did not quote your sources and there's no knowing whether PN will know them either. Neither are you able to dictate who responds nor about what.

I guess OP means this recent doc: Review of the wholesale broadband access markets.

I orginally took OP's 'Market A' as a typo for 'Market 1' .

There are 3 LLU operators ta my Exchange but I'm also still stuck on Market 1

I'm in absolute agreement with you on this one... public discussions are public...

And chucking my 2 cents in...

Surely it's OFCOM that the OPs question should be addressed to or their MP. OFCOM create the 3 classifications for wholesale prices presumably to create an artificial market.

Thanks
Tim

We've not got any plans at the moment to change pricing. If we do alter it based on the new(ish) market definitions then we'll let you know.

& this review is only still a consultation document, not a regulation, for which responses will be taken until late Sept.

It's a bit early to demand that PN have yet decided their stance.

Thanks - I had a quick look for it before asking for the reference, but it didn't leap out at me. Seeing as he presumably knew it, it would have been helpful if he had referenced it in the OP.

Just half way through the summary and got to go out, but para 1.5 looks like they have amalgamated M1 and M2 as MA, and M3 = MB. Presumably most retail ISPs will carry on regardless, and PlusNet will have to decide what to do. As, on te face of it, M2 is currently priced the same as M3 but PN give the M3 discount, (IIRC at first they only discounted M3), it gets difficult.

It could be argued that if re-assessed on their current wholesaler availability that M1 would now be very small, but any price structure changes that PN could make would of course be based on changing from calculations based on the existing setup.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

para 1.5 looks like they have amalgamated M1 and M2 as MA, and M3 = MB.

From the low %age for MA can't it be read that MA = M1 & MB = M2+M3? In 2010 M1 was 16.4% while now MA covers just 9.6%.

As far as PN is concerned it seems obvious that MA is the new M1 pricewise .

"Market A: exchange areas where there are no more than two Principal Operators (POs) present or forecast to be present, which accounts for 9.6% of UK premises." - http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/revie...

So a former M2 classified exchange will no longer be in a PN "low cost area"?

No, because M1 is no LLU, M2 is 1 LLU. Therefore MA = M1 + M2.

That's precisely the difficulty I just explained PN will have in adjusting prices. Your conclusion based on XRaySpeX's post is incorrect because as I've just explained to him, he is wrong.

In effect, M2 = MA and M3 = MB. M1 is scrapped. But a large number of M2s already have more than 1 LLU, and a significant number of M1s already have at least 1 LLU and possibly 2.

Both Sky and TT have expanded their footprint, and C & W added a fair number post 2010. I expect a fair proportion of M1 will become MB.

Depending what comes out of the further consultation, I expect PN will end up with a unified price. Though it would be possible for them to introduce MA and MB pricing for new or product-changing customers.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Depending what comes out of the further consultation, I expect PN will end up with a unified price. Though it would be possible for them to introduce MA and MB pricing for new or product-changing customers.

At my M2 exchange, for example, it's PN's "low cost area" pricing that makes it competitive with TT full LLU. If PN adopted the current M1 pricing for a proposed MA (outside a "low cost area") exchange where only TT have a LLU presence that would perhaps give TT a distinct marketing advantage?

I find that arithmetic fallacious. Times have changed!

I don't accept my wrongness you confer on me. Neither of us is wrong, or right, yet but I'd rather go with the %ages.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Mon 22-Jul-13 17:54:54)

The usertools checker now includes the new classification based on the proposals which, of course, may change http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/

Edited by deleted (Mon 22-Jul-13 17:54:37)

If!

It hasn't even been decided that MA and MB classifications will come into force, though it is likely. Speculation about PlusNet's pricing policy some time in 2014 is utterly pointless.

As this July document was due in May, it is probable that the final classifications expected in March 2014 will also be at least a couple of months late. We could all be dead by then.

Anyway, how many LLU suppliers are there in your exchange? Only TalkTalk?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

I find that arithmetic fallacious. Times have changed!

I don't accept my wrongness you confer on me. Neither of us is wrong, or right, yet but I'd rather go with the %ages.

The relevant wholesale geographic markets that we have identified differ from those identified in the 2010 WBA Statement in two respects.

First, the conditions of competition in exchanges where BT is the only PO (�BT-only� exchanges) and those exchanges where there is one other PO present or forecast to be present (�BT+1� exchanges) are sufficiently similar to justify their inclusion in the same geographic market (i.e. Market A) for the purpose of our SMP assessment.

Note that I assumed you would realise that I was talking about how exchanges now are - in other words what their M1/2/3 status would be if reclassified on the 2010 criteria.

People might note I've not bothered to worry the masses with a news item on changes to market definitions yet

So much is going on in this review, and we could see a return of the margin squeeze test from the 2002-2004 era

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

The usertools checker now includes the new classification based on the proposals which, of course, may change http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/

Thanks Jim

My Market Drayton exchange currently shows as Market: 2 and Mkt2014: B

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Therefore MA = M1 + M2.

Therefore my previous example CLIFTON doesn't exist according to that PN exchange checker:

In reference to usertools.plus.net/exchanges/?exchange=Clifton&exact=242:

Exchange Status Checker
Results: Clifton Code: MYCTN
County: Yorkshire - North
Enabled: 28 May 2002
Market: 2
Mkt2014: B

So in answer to my question, there is at least one more LLU supplier than TalkTalk?

Yes for Market Drayton; No for Clifton!

I'm confused - are you answering questions that I have asked 4M2?

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Anyway, how many LLU suppliers are there in your exchange? Only TalkTalk?

Ah! I've just checked WNMD on SamKnows and just discovered that Sky/Easynet now has a LLU presence (as well as TT) yet still has the Ofcom Classification of Market 2

Yes.

What did "Therefore my previous example CLIFTON doesn't exist according to that PN exchange checker:" mean, seeing as it was followed immediately by Clifton from said checker?
???

To be clear about the proposals:

Market A = exchanges with (a) no broadband, (b) BT Wholesale (BTW) only, or (c) BTW + 1 principal operator only (usually TalkTalk) in (roughly) June 2014.

Market B = all other BT exchanges.

Most Market A exchanges are in the current Market 1 but a number of Market 1 exchanges will be in Market B. There is a further overlay: the controls apply only to IPStream services, i.e. ADSL Max up to 8 Mbps, but not (as proposed) to WBC/21CN services if those are available.

As noted, the proposals imply controls on what BTW can charge for wholesale broadband to resellers at Market A exchanges, including BT Retail, PlusNet, etc. The base wholesale charges are currently about £7 per month plus £60 per Mbps per month for aggregated bandwidth. The detailed figures suggest that this may fall somewhat from April 2014 (when the new control comes into effect) and in subsequent years. Still, a reseller can't cover its costs by reselling BTW services at the prices which TalkTalk, Sky, etc charge for customers at their unbundled (LLU) exchanges.

In simple terms, if you are at a Market 1 exchange today with BTW as the only wholesaler, then nothing much is going to change apart from a gradual reduction in BTW's charges to your reseller. For those who don't realise it, it is what happens to the bandwidth charge that is probably the main driver of the bill that the average user pays - bandwidth revenues are more or less equal to rental revenues and are growing faster.

It was a tongue-in-cheek disproof of your formula ' MA = M1 + M2' as it showed that Clifton disobeyed it.

OK, as you don't seem to follow this:

Clifton is BT + 1 LLU.
Market Drayton is BT + 2 LLU.

Yet they are both shown as Market: 2, Mkt2014: B, contradicting your fiercely held assertion.

Because Ofcom has not done a reclassification exercise for a few years

In reply to a post by gah789:

To be clear about the proposals:

Market A = exchanges with (a) no broadband, (b) BT Wholesale (BTW) only, or (c) BTW + 1 principal operator only (usually TalkTalk) in (roughly) June 2014.

Market B = all other BT exchanges.

Most Market A exchanges are in the current Market 1 but a number of Market 1 exchanges will be in Market B. There is a further overlay: the controls apply only to IPStream services, i.e. ADSL Max up to 8 Mbps, but not (as proposed) to WBC/21CN services if those are available.

Does that mean that if an exchange is 21CN enabled and only has a TT LLU presence it will become MB? Such an exchange could currently be M2 and in a PN "low cost area".

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Because Ofcom has not done a reclassification exercise for a few years

Sure, but how can PN give my exchange a possible MB classification when it is still M2 according to SamKnows? I thought PN used those M1/2/3 classifications when deciding if one is in a "low cost area"...

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Does that mean that if an exchange is 21CN enabled and only has a TT LLU presence it will become MB?

Only if there are other providers forecast; otherwise it will be MA.

21CN only comes into the charge control, or lack of, not into the count of providers at exchanges.

I would have thought that you would be glad for it to be MB as surely this will rank as PN 'low cost area'.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

... but how can PN give my exchange a possible MB classification when it is still M2 according to SamKnows? I thought PN used those M1/2/3 classifications when deciding if one is in a "low cost area"...

Yes, PlusNet use Market Classifications to determine low/high cost areas. But Market Classifications occur at a specific point in time, not as an on-going process. The last time was November 2010, for the December 2010 list. They will be reclassified once this new framework is agreed by all concerned.

They will be reclassified on the basis of the number of LLU suppliers at each exchange some time next year, taking into account any LLU suppliers at Stage 3 or later of LLU'ing that exchange.

PlusNet are well aware of the LLU suppliers at all exchanges as of today, just as samknows is. They can therefore make a good stab at forecasting what each exchange will be classed as. There will of course be additional LLU provisions between now and the final date - by definition neither samknows nor PlusNet are yet aware of those.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

I would have thought that you would be glad for it to be MB as surely this will rank as PN 'low cost area'.

Actually prompted by the discussion in this thread I've just discovered that Sky now have a LLU presence at my exchange (haven't checked on SamKnows recently)...that's food for thought...although I guess they don't do partial LLU on a 30 day minimum term...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

PlusNet are well aware of the LLU suppliers at all exchanges as of today, just as samknows is. They can therefore make a good stab at forecasting what each exchange will be classed as. There will of course be additional LLU provisions between now and the final date - by definition neither samknows nor PlusNet are yet aware of those.

Interesting though that the example of a M2 exchange, i.e. MYCTN, given by XRaySpeX is possibly going to classified MB according to PN since neither SamKnows nor Plusnet are aware of additional LLU provisions before the final date...

VM is available in some areas, and that counts . So MYCTN is BT + 2.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

VM is available in some areas, and that counts . So MYCTN is BT + 2.

Right - I didn't know that cable counted also

These are not the Plusnet or Samknows classification but the proposed OFCOM classifications from the discussion document

Good point (& memory).

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

These are not the Plusnet or Samknows classification but the proposed OFCOM classifications from the discussion document

Understood

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

These are not the Plusnet or Samknows classification but the proposed OFCOM classifications from the discussion document

Did I miss something? I didn't see a list. So the PN method of classification will be as I described?

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultati...
Page 43 onwards

Thanks. D'oh!

Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

XRaySpeX link, the consultation and proposals:- http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultati...

No reference that I can see to - Your link, the annexes to XRaySpeX's link :- http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultati...

How did you find it?

In reply to a post by gah789:

........

In simple terms, if you are at a Market 1 exchange today with BTW as the only wholesaler, then nothing much is going to change apart from a gradual reduction in BTW's charges to your reseller. For those who don't realise it, it is what happens to the bandwidth charge that is probably the main driver of the bill that the average user pays - bandwidth revenues are more or less equal to rental revenues and are growing faster.

AAAAH,
at last, that is the SIMPLE answer I was after !!!

The reason for ALL this:
BT has CANCELLED our 21CN upgrade, and our MP is moving back to THIS village, i.e. subject to Market 1, (and ilready designated as Mrkt2014: A)
Of course the cost will be borne by us, the taxpayers, but the the POOR service and no sign of improvement could mean, that, when proded, some representation to OFCOM and/or BT might arrise !
Not holding my breath though....

But the discussion shows what a can of worms this is, OFCOM should be proud of themseves,
strike that,
SHOT ...
Regards,
Martin

I really don't understand what on earth is getting up your nose. Apart from jealously.

With all BT Wholesale based ISPs that I can recall bar PlusNet, the price at all exchanges is the same, and higher than PlusNet's Market 1 price. EE is a special case, where it depends on which exchanges they had LLU'ed before selling it all to BT Wholesale.

So you don't get it as cheap as M2/3 customers of PN, but you still get it cheaper anywhere other than LLU. You should be shouting at the LLU suppliers for being miserable gits and not LLU'ing your exchange.

As someone said, your gripe is in the wrong forum. PN are the only honest ISP in the game in this respect.

In reply to a post by martinsq:

at last, that is the SIMPLE answer I was after !!!

But it's the answer to nothing! It does not address how PN will treat your exchange under the new (proposed) classifications; only PN can say.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

EE is a special case, where it depends on which exchanges they had LLU'ed before selling it all to BT Wholesale.

I believe EE uses market 1 and market 2/3 pricing like Plusnet these days. I put a number into the EE checker on an exchange with Sky and TT LLU; the exchange never had Orange LLU. The lower price was offered.

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,1164... which had a link to http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/revie... which has a link to the document
However - it wasn't me who found it - see reply 11 in the thread

EE uses a hybrid of ex-LLU & Markets: see http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/freeserve/t/4206584...

In reply to a post by Oldjim:

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,1164...

- reply #17: user currently on a M1 Sky LLU'd exchange and the exchange will be MA. I can certainly understand peoples' concerns about the future of PN's "low cost areas" and the pricing structure in general.

Post deleted by Oliver341

All 5 Market 1 exchanges where Orange had LLU now have VM + 1 or 2 LLUs, but I don't know how it was in 2010 when the classification was made.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

All 5 Market 1 exchanges where Orange had LLU now have VM + 1 or 2 LLUs, but I don't know how it was in 2010 when the classification was made.

From your post previously linked to:

"Market 1: £10 pm at all 5 LLU Exchanges incl. THTH, SSWCE"

Does that mean they were former Orange LLU exchanges, now market 1, and offered at the lower price by EE?

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

Does that mean they were former Orange LLU exchanges, now market 1, and offered at the lower price by EE?

That's exactly what I am saying. They were Market 1 when Orange dropped LLU. The complete list of them is:
HATHERN
OXSHOTT
WITCOMBE
WILTON
THEALE

All other Market 1 are charged £10 pm more, as they were never LLU by Orange.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

All other Market 1 are charged £10 pm more, as they were never LLU by Orange.

Interesting, I wonder if BT Wholesale are technically allowed to charge EE a lower price for a given market 1 exchange than that which everyone else pays. I understand preferential rates could be offered since Orange gave BT Wholesale their LLU infrastructure, I guess it must have been ratified by Ofcom somehow for the sake of fairness to competing ISPs.

I imagine EE can blow all other ISPs out of the water, price-wise, on former Orange LLU market 1 exchanges, including even Plusnet.

They didn't just get EE's LLU infrastructure, in fact I imagine that has been discarded in one way or another. They got the whole setup except sales and maybe first-line support.

EE is not an ISP, it is a vISP. Their broadband is white label BTW. As such I imagine the contract between them for services provided can be any price they agree on. The "ISP" prices for connection and data backhaul could very well not be applicable, as those BTW and OR products are not in the contract(s).

I imagine it came out of the negotiations when Orange agreed with BTw for it to subcontract its BB and network. It's not exactly the same as buying services from a wholesaler but forging a whole new arrangement.

There's only 5 exchanges, probably small, to blow the other ISPs out. Probably just a marginal gain (popular with Team Sky Cycling - now's that 1 place Sky is superb).

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

EE is not an ISP, it is a vISP.

Interesting that OFCOM recognises EE in its review, unlike any other vISP (if it is such).

That is interesting. I didn't notice it in the main document, but I was skimming for specific types of information. It doesn't appear as a big boy, whereas O2, (for the moment) does, even though they are/were roughly the same size.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I really don't understand what on earth is getting up your nose. Apart from jealously.
......
You should be shouting at the LLU suppliers for being miserable gits and not LLU'ing your exchange.

As someone said, your gripe is in the wrong forum. PN are the only honest ISP in the game in this respect.

I have been paying TWICE as much as near neigbours for YEARS, getting a poorer service, and now the planned 21CN upgrade has disapeared !
You can call it jealousy if you like, it's just plain unfair !

And no, we are not in rural back of beyond, just 8 miles from Kent's capital city, and mere three miles from fibre / Market 3 exchange.

I can hardly blame LLU suppliers if they can see more profit somewhere else,
but I blame OFCOM for a.) assuming it can entice them by keeping prices high and more so for b.) keeping that going whilst has been blatantly obvious it won't work for some 3 years.

I have no propblem with PlusNet, in fact I am very gratefull as their pricing is fairer then all others.
Apart from their adverts, IMHO they are appaling !

MY MAJOR GRIPE IS WITH OFCOM !

I merely asked PlusNet to comment on the new Ofcom proposal, to see if things might get better for Market 1 victims.
Seems, may be little.
Stil, time to write to my MP, who apprently 'lives' literarly round the corner.
(keeps a flat in London, and another house elsewhere.., this is just constituency presence address)
Rgards,
Martin

In reply to a post by martinsq:

I can hardly blame LLU suppliers if they can see more profit somewhere else,
but I blame OFCOM for a.) assuming it can entice them by keeping prices high and more so for b.) keeping that going whilst has been blatantly obvious it won't work for some 3 years.

If it wasn't for Ofcom, you'd be paying more, not less.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

If it wasn't for Ofcom, you'd be paying more, not less.

NO !
Ofcom is setting the BTW price for Market 1 / A .
and keeping high !

In reply to a post by martinsq:

NO !
Ofcom is setting the BTW price for Market 1 / A .
and keeping high !

Ofcom caps the price on Market 1 exchanges. Without the price caps, BT Wholesale would set the prices higher.

Note I used the word "cap". BT Wholesale is very welcome to set their prices lower than the Ofcom-imposed cap, but of course they will not.

In reply to a post by martinsq:

NO ! Ofcom is setting the BTW price for Market 1 / A .

No, No!! OFCOM is setting a cap on BTw's price to ISPs in Market A.

A cap is an upper limit. W/out a cap BTw could, and would. charge even more and your BB from PN would be even dearer..