Moving to PN - Some pre-move advice please

Hi All.

Currently on O2/BE and looking to move to PN due to the Sky factor.

Couple of question.
My current synch speeds are 50% of my available broadband speed. Will this be the same on Fibre?. Estimated speeds is 38mb, but I treat that with the same 'estimate' terminology O2 gave me (20mb @ 10mb), so with my line stats below, would I get anything close to that?.

Second question. I live in an old house, 1930s, and the phone cabling looks pretty old. During the years we've had the original wiring from BT, and switched to Sky phone many years ago. Is there anything I can do with my wiring/phone/sockets that can improve speeds?.


Thanks in advance.


Uptime: 30 days, 13:56:44
DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1.351 / 11.782
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/GB]: 1,44 / 1,99
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11,9 / 19,1
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 18,7 / 32,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6,6 / 5,4
System Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ----
Chipset Vendor ID (Local/Remote): BDCM / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 5 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 6.450 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 9.977.274
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 3.170 / 22.328
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1.363 / 870.884

In reply to a post by Bamster:

My current synch speeds are 50% of my available broadband speed.

Available or "estimated"?

I'm on the O2 20mb ADSL deal, but synch at 11mb, have done since having it many years ago.

In reply to a post by Bamster:

My current synch speeds are 50% of my available broadband speed. Will this be the same on Fibre?. Estimated speeds is 38mb, but I treat that with the same 'estimate' terminology O2 gave me (20mb @ 10mb), so with my line stats below, would I get anything close to that?.

Fibre speeds are completely unrelated to ADSL2+ speeds, so the best you can do is go by the Plusnet estimate, and complain/back out if you don't get them.

Yeah thats fair enough. What about prep for the FTTH?. I'm still worried that my phone system at home is a botch job from years gone by, I've had ISDN, BT, Sky etc, and never rewired the internal phone system. Should I be worried, is there something I can do, some prep work, new face plates etc?.

Assuming you haven't noticed noise on the voice side of things you should be ok. The master socket will be modified by the engineer and the VDSL2 signal will be pulled directly from there, or from a new extension off it if required and requested.

Edited by Oliver341 (Mon 26-Aug-13 13:43:25)

In reply to a post by Bamster:

I'm on the O2 20mb ADSL deal, but synch at 11mb

The 20 Meg is just the advertised max that O2 can supply to the few who are close to exchange. Your 11 Meg is the speed your particular line will bear due to to your distance to exchange. There is no relationship between the 2 figure except that the latter is always less than the former.

Not strictly true , but sufficient for the purpose. O2 allow it to sync up to 24Mbps if it can. As you said - 10% of customers sync at at least 20Mbps.

What's this about FTTH? Do you really mean that, or FTTC? There is a huge difference in the delivery systems at your end.

Edit - You probably mean FTTC, from the 38Mbps estimate. But where did you get that from? It may be the top speed of the product, not an estimate for your line. Just like the O2 20Mbps. Or it could be an actual estimate, depending on where you got it from.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 26-Aug-13 16:38:40)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

What's this about FTTH? Do you really mean that, or FTTC? There is a huge difference in the delivery systems at your end.

Indeed apologies, FTTC

I did say 'advertised' . A pointless response!

I've just edited another question into my post, while you were replying . About where you got the 38Mbps from.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by Bamster:

I'm on the O2 20mb ADSL deal, but synch at 11mb

The 20 Meg is just the advertised max that O2 can supply to the few who are close to exchange. Your 11 Meg is the speed your particular line will bear due to to your distance to exchange. There is no relationship between the 2 figure except that the latter is always less than the former.

I understand the copper wiring in the home is the last connection from the cabinet?
So my question is considering that I can only receive 50% of 'maximum' bandwidth, I'm asking if its due to:

a) distance form exchange (I'm 800m away)
b) poor/old wiring
c) both, based on my line stats posted.

Or maybe its less of an issue on Fibre?.

I'm not after certainties, just some guidance, if its worth sorting my home phone/sockets prior to PlusNet etc



Thanks

Edited by Bamster (Mon 26-Aug-13 16:43:36)

The quibble was with "There is no relationship between the 2 figure except that the latter is always less than the former". A 24Mbps sync (your latter) is higher than 20Mbps your former). Even the throughput speed can be slightly above 20Mbps on O2.

A pointless rebuttal by you . It's usually you pointing out that sort of trivial inaccuracy in my posts, so swallow your own medicine .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

What's this about FTTH? Do you really mean that, or FTTC? There is a huge difference in the delivery systems at your end.

Edit - You probably mean FTTC, from the 38Mbps estimate. But where did you get that from? It may be the top speed of the product, not an estimate for your line. Just like the O2 20Mbps. Or it could be an actual estimate, depending on where you got it from.

From the PlusNet website. Indeed 'up to' is always the crunch, so I'm trying to at least make sure anything I can do my end is done prior to moving to them.

With an attenuation of 32dB you should be sync'ing at between 13Mbps and 15Mbps or so. So yes, there is probably a problem with your wiring.

I'm still not happy about your 38Mbps. I think you are referring to the Product description. Or did you put your phone number in and that's what it came back with?
_{Edit - typo.}

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 26-Aug-13 16:49:59)

OK, point taken! But still a pointless remark considering the OP is under the misapprehension that he can only get about 50% of all BB advertised and estimated figures .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

With an attenuation of 32dB you should be sync'ing at between 13Mbps and 15Mbps or so. So yes, there is probably a problem with your wiring.

I'm still not happy about your 38Mbps. I think you are referring to the Product description. Or did you put your phone number in and that's what it came back with?
_{Edit - typo.}

Yup. Entered my phone number and that's what it came back with when you go through the order process (without paying etc).
It now says 'Up to 34mb'. Also just noticed the "Broadband: Download speed could vary between 7Mb and 9Mb" which is a tad pointless for unlimited Fibre...

Not sure why buying broadband in the country is so ambiguous compared to other EU countries....

Depends how long since you read he 38Mbps. It's taken from an Openreach database, and Openreach recently downgraded all estimates by several Mbps.

I've no idea what that 7-9 was. Are you sure it wasn't MBps, (MegaBytes ps)? I've never seen the page, as I signed up over the phone. But 7-9MBps wouldn't make sense either.

Connection speeds are in megabits per second, and download speeds are often quoted in MegaBytes per second. There are 8 bits in a byte.

No i just copied and pasted that from the order process, where it gives you an estimate, in my case 34mb

From the Fibre Optic webpage:

Broadband: Download speed could vary between 7Mb and 9Mb.
Fibre broadband: Speed could vary depending on line conditions and the package you choose

Just checked and its talking about Broadband as well as Fibre Optic, just to confuse the customer even more

Yep. And they succeeded. The 7-9 has to be ADSL2+.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I've no idea what that 7-9 was. Are you sure it wasn't MBps, (MegaBytes ps)?

No, it's the non-Fibre BB speeds (but reads as if it's generic BB ), comme ca:

Fibre broadband
Download speed ||||||||||||||||||||||59Mb

Broadband
Download speed |||7Mb

Mb (per second) 0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80

Broadband: Download speed could vary between 6Mb and 8Mb.

Fibre broadband: Speed could vary depending on line conditions and the package you choose.

The estimated speed shown above is based on information held by BT Wholesale. Estimates are the maximum speeds that your phone line can support.

I guess my worry is that with O2, the 'estimated speed' was 18mb (on the 20mb package) but ended up being 10mb tops. There seems little point me paying £22 pm for 34mb if I'm only going to get 10-15mb, as that's not enough to make any difference over and above a standard 10mb package.

So back on to my question, is it possible to tell when speeds I 'should get' with my line data?.

In reply to a post by Bamster:

So back on to my question, is it possible to tell when speeds I 'should get' with my line data?.

You "should get" around 34Mbps, as on the estimate you have been given. There is a fair likelihood it will be higher but no reason why it should only be half unless you have an internal wiring problem. The ADSL line data you have given doesn't really help, FTTC/VDSL is rather different. BTW if you order the unlimited product and your estimate is only 34Mbps, Plusnet will put you on the 40/10 profile. If it turns out that you sync at the very top end of this, they will put you on 80/20 if you request it.

You need to know the wire distance from your FTTC cabinet. Then there are some estimators.

Most people find the Openreach estimator, which is the one giving you 34Mbps, will be exceeded if you are an early one on the cabinet, but drop towards it if there are more users added. Or around it if they are already there, which is likely in your case.

Re the home wiring, it gets taken out of the equation on FTTC. Unless the imminent self-install comes in before you take the plunge. An Openreach engineer comes and fits a new type of filtered faceplate to your NTE5 master socket, and connects a VDSL2 modem to it. You then run Ethernet to your cable type router and from there onwards you are back to normal.

If you order the free Home Wiring Solution, (often called by its old name - a data extension kit), on the same order as the FTTC he can either move the master socket to wherever you prefer, up to 30 metres cable run, or leave the master socket where it is and run the cable to where you want your modem and install a socket for it there.

How many times do you have to be told that there is no relationship between the proportion of your actual speed on ADSL BB to the estimated speed with that proportion for fibre. The former depends in line length all the way back to exchange, while latter just on line length to your green cabinet. There is no magic 50% residing in your property. Kindly stop spouting that 50%; it is not helping you.

In reply to a post by Bamster:

is it possible to tell when speeds I 'should get' with my line data?

No. it's impossible! Your router stats are for ADSL BB, not Fibre. They bear no relationship to Fibre. The only thing everyone has to do is order fibre and see what you eventually get and complain if it is significantly slower than estimate.

W.r.t. your original O2 estimate of 18 Meg: You see the PN estimate of 7 Meg for my ADSL BB that I just posted?

Well this is for a line that has no BB on it at present but has previously had about 15-16 Meg from O2. While my 2nd line does have ADSL BB on it running at 20 Meg, but PN (& BT) only estimate it at 12 Meg. That's how accurate these estimates are .

Your connection is currently underperforming on ADSL2+. You should be getting nearly 14 Meg. If that is due to a fault in your internal wiring or in that back to the cab, it could similarly affect your fibre speeds.

On a standard FTTC installation existing internal wiring is not used, so would not affect the FTTC speeds. A problem between the premises and the PCP would probably have a greater effect than now.

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 26-Aug-13 22:30:00)

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

How many times do you have to be told that there is no relationship between the proportion of your actual speed on ADSL BB to the estimated speed with that proportion for fibre. The former depends in line length all the way back to exchange, while latter just on line length to your green cabinet. There is no magic 50% residing in your property. Kindly stop spouting that 50%; it is not helping you.

In reply to a post by Bamster:

is it possible to tell when speeds I 'should get' with my line data?

No. it's impossible! Your router stats are for ADSL BB, not Fibre. They bear no relationship to Fibre. The only thing everyone has to do is order fibre and see what you eventually get and complain if it is significantly slower than estimate.

W.r.t. your original O2 estimate of 18 Meg: You see the PN estimate of 7 Meg for my ADSL BB that I just posted?

Well this is for a line that has no BB on it at present but has previously had about 15-16 Meg from O2. While my 2nd line does have ADSL BB on it running at 20 Meg, but PN (& BT) only estimate it at 12 Meg. That's how accurate these estimates are .

Your connection is currently underperforming on ADSL2+. You should be getting nearly 14 Meg. If that is due to a fault in your internal wiring or in that back to the cab, it could similarly affect your fibre speeds.

Calm down, nobody is spouting 50%. I used it mainly to indicate my current speed compared to my current package, call it what you want, 11mb, 50%. I was just trying to indicate, in tandem with my stats, my current speed.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

You need to know the wire distance from your FTTC cabinet. Then there are some estimators.

Most people find the Openreach estimator, which is the one giving you 34Mbps, will be exceeded if you are an early one on the cabinet, but drop towards it if there are more users added. Or around it if they are already there, which is likely in your case.

Re the home wiring, it gets taken out of the equation on FTTC. Unless the imminent self-install comes in before you take the plunge. An Openreach engineer comes and fits a new type of filtered faceplate to your NTE5 master socket, and connects a VDSL2 modem to it. You then run Ethernet to your cable type router and from there onwards you are back to normal.

If you order the free Home Wiring Solution, (often called by its old name - a data extension kit), on the same order as the FTTC he can either move the master socket to wherever you prefer, up to 30 metres cable run, or leave the master socket where it is and run the cable to where you want your modem and install a socket for it there.

Thanks for clearing up my questions
I'll be ordering the Home Wiring Solution also.

Many thanks.

If that's all you are doing then stop extrapolating it to Fibre as you have been trying to do, e.g.

In reply to a post by Bamster:

There seems little point me paying £22 pm for 34mb if I'm only going to get 10-15mb

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

If that's all you are doing then stop extrapolating it to Fibre as you have been trying to do, e.g.

In reply to a post by Bamster:

There seems little point me paying £22 pm for 34mb if I'm only going to get 10-15mb

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Your connection is currently underperforming on ADSL2+. You should be getting nearly 14 Meg. If that is due to a fault in your internal wiring or in that back to the cab, it could similarly affect your fibre speeds.

If my BB is 11mb of 20mb, and a Fibre solution uses part of that infrastructure, then it stands to reason that there is a likelihood that Fibre will be affected also, even if to a lesser degree, which is what you said.

Anyway, not trolling, thanks for the input, original post has been answered.

Thanks all

In reply to a post by Bamster:

If my BB is 11mb of 20mb

Your BB is actually 11 Meg out of about 14 Meg. The 20 Meg has nowt to do with you; it is just part of a product name along with the phrase 'Up to' into which you fall.

The Fibre solution uses a small fraction of the total infrastructure.

Don't forget what I replied to XRaySpeX by the way. You've no need to worry about your home wiring, but if the problem is on the line to the phone cabinet it could be worse on FTTC. But they will look into it if the initial connection is badly below the estimate.

If the problem is between the cabinet and the exchange, it should disappear.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

The Fibre solution uses a small fraction of the total infrastructure.

Indeed I see that from the responses. My concern was that even if its a small fraction, if its the last link in the chain, and its ropey as hell, then I was worried just how bad it would be. Hence I hoped my line stats might show if there looked to be an internal wiring issue, knowing I am 800m from the exchange etc.

I don't know how to read them, I just know the state of the phone wiring here, ISDN, BT, Cable and Wireless ISDN. I have sockets with wires hanging out, sockets with no wires, and holes where sockets used to be. My untrained eye thinks is pretty old and not working as well as it should be :/

It seems you are misunderstanding the 34mb figure

The maximum speed is 76mb and so you will be getting 34mb of 76mb
Just like how you are getting 11mb of 20mb

Also given that the engineer is most likely going to fix/bypass/patchup the socket wiring paying £22 a month for a minimum of a 3x increase in speed sounds very worth it.

In reply to a post by itschin:

The maximum speed is 76mb and so you will be getting 34mb of 76mb

Don't tell the OP but it could even be 34 Meg out of 38 Meg, if he is put on 40/10 product.

That's nearly 90% on OP's scale of things.

In reply to a post by itschin:

It seems you are misunderstanding the 34mb figure

The maximum speed is 76mb and so you will be getting 34mb of 76mb
Just like how you are getting 11mb of 20mb

I believe the estimate is based on BTW records of that address/phone number, and nothing to do with 'actual speed' you may receive.

RobertoS gave a comprehensive reply, so all good

Cheers

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

In reply to a post by itschin:

The maximum speed is 76mb and so you will be getting 34mb of 76mb

Don't tell the OP but it could even be 34 Meg out of 38 Meg, if he is put on 40/10 product.

That's nearly 90% on OP's scale of things.

I posted on here because I bow to the knowledge of those like yourself who post responses to noobs like me.

However if you choose to fixate on my term '50%' which I think was clearly a terminology of my current speed, and then assume (incorrectly) that any given estimate on a website has any real world relevance to actual product speeds when installed, then I wont argue with you. You did state earlier on, that the one factor that could effect Fibre speed could be poor home wiring, which really was my original question, posted in the wrong context possibly.

Anyway, my questions been answered.

Thanks

I never said home wiring was 'the one factor' and RobertoS has already excluded that.

Just to end a different discussion, are you signing up for the "Unlimited" or the "Essentials" package?

Unlimited Fibre (Broadband only option)

In reply to a post by Bamster:

Unlimited Fibre (Broadband only option)

In which case, bear in mind the end of my earlier post.

In reply to a post by kasg:

In reply to a post by Bamster:

Unlimited Fibre (Broadband only option)

In which case, bear in mind the end of my earlier post.

Yes indeed. Can't be worse (speed wise) than what I currently have, so all good.
I would have stayed with O2, but just not prepared to move to Sky. Shame as they have been brilliant.