Is the HH4 a POS ?

Met one today, lack of diagnostic lights wasn't great. Went to orange a couple of times and had horrible packet loss (<1% to HH, >10% to internet). No line stats on the menu that I could see. ~10M line should be faster but 15 dB SNR margin probably due to HH4 instability.

Changed it for a TP-Link cheapo which seems to work perfectly.

As I see there's now a HH5 was the HH4 a lemon ?

In reply to a post by yarwell:

As I see there's now a HH5 was the HH4 a lemon ?

The built in modem of the HH5 supports VDSL2, so is ready for wires only FTTC.

Hey Phil,

the 4 isn't a POS in my book, been using one very nicely since it came out, beat my old 3 hands down, no more wireless issues.

As mentioned, the 5 has a built in VDSL modem as well as an ADSL one, it'll give line stats on VDSL too ! Only come across a couple so far, but all seemed OK.

The HH3 I had for review, and still need to look at for wireless speeds. Used to find it impossible to login into the web interface.

Oddly if there was an internet connection available it was fine.

The HH4 is miserly in information only shows sync Up/Down ,Time up and usage.
However have found it as reliable as my Surf N300.
No problems with connection or speed.
Big advantage to using HH4 is using Wifi anywhere another HH4 is in use, for free. Invaluable when out and about.
Like all Routers there can be issues with some.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

As mentioned, the 5 has a built in VDSL modem as well as an ADSL one, it'll give line stats on VDSL too ! Only come across a couple so far, but all seemed OK.

Does it have a modem only mode? I'm expecting not :-/

Not as far as I know.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Not as far as I know.

Shame, any new BT Infinity subscriber is a bit stuck if they want to use a different device. Similar situation as Virgin Media found themselves in when they launched an all-in-one device.

Hopefully Openreach can sort out a certification scheme for VDSL modems - bring back the BABT approvals green circle

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Not as far as I know.

Shame, any new BT Infinity subscriber is a bit stuck if they want to use a different device. Similar situation as Virgin Media found themselves in when they launched an all-in-one device.

Hopefully Openreach can sort out a certification scheme for VDSL modems - bring back the BABT approvals green circle

When ordering Infinity don't you have the option of saying "no router required" and would therefore be supplied with the OR modem to use with whatever hardware suits you?

As an alternative approach, ask for the HH5 to be connected via the WAN socket which would then require the OR modem to be supplied.

Thoughts anyone on this.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Not as far as I know.

Shame, any new BT Infinity subscriber is a bit stuck if they want to use a different device. Similar situation as Virgin Media found themselves in when they launched an all-in-one device.

Hopefully Openreach can sort out a certification scheme for VDSL modems - bring back the BABT approvals green circle

When ordering Infinity don't you have the option of saying "no router required" and would therefore be supplied with the OR modem to use with whatever hardware suits you?

As an alternative approach, ask for the HH5 to be connected via the WAN socket which would then require the OR modem to be supplied.

Thoughts anyone on this.

Both versions of the OR modem seem to be available brand new on ebay for around £20 (Got one myself as a backup) so anyone desperately wanting to use their own router could go that, err, route.

John.

In reply to a post by John_ON:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

Shame, any new BT Infinity subscriber is a bit stuck if they want to use a different device. Similar situation as Virgin Media found themselves in when they launched an all-in-one device.

Hopefully Openreach can sort out a certification scheme for VDSL modems - bring back the BABT approvals green circle

When ordering Infinity don't you have the option of saying "no router required" and would therefore be supplied with the OR modem to use with whatever hardware suits you?

As an alternative approach, ask for the HH5 to be connected via the WAN socket which would then require the OR modem to be supplied.

Thoughts anyone on this.

Both versions of the OR modem seem to be available brand new on ebay for around £20 (Got one myself as a backup) so anyone desperately wanting to use their own router could go that, err, route.

John.

I would be happy to accept that premise but is it truly a case of 'plug and go'? Let's hear from someone who has got one of these purchased routers and placed it in service please.

It's not a patch on my DG834GT on my line so it's gone back in the box.

Don't think the chipset is great on long lines at all.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

In reply to a post by John_ON:

Both versions of the OR modem seem to be available brand new on ebay for around £20 (Got one myself as a backup) so anyone desperately wanting to use their own router could go that, err, route.

John.

I would be happy to accept that premise but is it truly a case of 'plug and go'? Let's hear from someone who has got one of these purchased routers and placed it in service please.

They are modems, not routers.

Many, many posters on these forums use the Huawei modem including myself.

In reply to a post by greenglide:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

In reply to a post by John_ON:

Both versions of the OR modem seem to be available brand new on ebay for around £20 (Got one myself as a backup) so anyone desperately wanting to use their own router could go that, err, route.

John.

I would be happy to accept that premise but is it truly a case of 'plug and go'? Let's hear from someone who has got one of these purchased routers and placed it in service please.

They are modems, not routers.

Many, many posters on these forums use the Huawei modem including myself.

O dear, I have the internet police on my back! OK I made a typo and for router please read modem. And yes, I accept that Huawei modem is widely used but I was asking if such a router not supplied by OR can indeed be brought into service. That question has not been answered.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

O dear, I have the internet police on my back! OK I made a typo and for router please read modem. And yes, I accept that Huawei modem is widely used but I was asking if such a router not supplied by OR can indeed be brought into service. That question has not been answered.

The reason for correcting the misuse of the device name was to ensure that you were talking about the OR modem.

If you are actually talking about a router to connect to the OR modem then that is even more common.

Only BT Retail suppl;y the HH. all other ISPs use their own routers.

Many, many posters in these forums use their own supplied routers with the OR modem. I am one. They do work.

If you mean a modem other than the OR supplied ECI or Huawei modem or the BT Retail supplied HH5 modem/router then the answer is again yes. Not many VDSL modems are available on the market. Draytek do one and I believe that certain fritzboxes will do as well but this isnt really a plug and pray(sic) option.

In reply to a post by greenglide:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

O dear, I have the internet police on my back! OK I made a typo and for router please read modem. And yes, I accept that Huawei modem is widely used but I was asking if such a router not supplied by OR can indeed be brought into service. That question has not been answered.

The reason for correcting the misuse of the device name was to ensure that you were talking about the OR modem.

If you are actually talking about a router to connect to the OR modem then that is even more common.

Only BT Retail suppl;y the HH. all other ISPs use their own routers.

Many, many posters in these forums use their own supplied routers with the OR modem. I am one. They do work.

If you mean a modem other than the OR supplied ECI or Huawei modem or the BT Retail supplied HH5 modem/router then the answer is again yes. Not many VDSL modems are available on the market. Draytek do one and I believe that certain fritzboxes will do as well but this isnt really a plug and pray(sic) option.

Let's just simply say this. On installation the HH5 is used without an OR modem on a FTTC service. Later you decide that you want to use your own router because it contains features that the HH5 doesn't support. So you get your own desired router and also nip onto eBay to pick up an OR modem for twenty quid or so. Will your privately sourced OR modem provide a service to the WAN socket of the new router? Theory is one thing but has anyone actually got that set up to work?

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Will your privately sourced OR modem provide a service to the WAN socket of the new router? Theory is one thing but has anyone actually got that set up to work?

There's no doubt the OR modem will serve a random PPPoE router or indeed computer via its WAN port. As said above "Many, many posters in these forums use their own supplied routers with the OR modem. I am one. They do work."

Does the HH5 have an ethernet WAN port or just an RJ11 for the phone line ?

OK, hopefully the HH5 gives more VDSL stats than the HH4 does ADSL The HH4 almost looks like it was designed for Infinity with ADSL as an afterthought.

Testing it later on my line....

In reply to a post by yarwell:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Will your privately sourced OR modem provide a service to the WAN socket of the new router? Theory is one thing but has anyone actually got that set up to work?

There's no doubt the OR modem will serve a random PPPoE router or indeed computer via its WAN port. As said above "Many, many posters in these forums use their own supplied routers with the OR modem. I am one. They do work."

Does the HH5 have an ethernet WAN port or just an RJ11 for the phone line ?

Yes the HH5 does have a WAN and DSL port.

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Yes the HH5 does have a WAN and DSL port.

Without an Ethernet WAN port, the HH5 would be unable to connect to an FTTP ONT.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Will your privately sourced OR modem provide a service to the WAN socket of the new router? Theory is one thing but has anyone actually got that set up to work?

There's no doubt the OR modem will serve a random PPPoE router or indeed computer via its WAN port. As said above "Many, many posters in these forums use their own supplied routers with the OR modem. I am one. They do work."

Does the HH5 have an ethernet WAN port or just an RJ11 for the phone line ?

It has a WAN port, it can be used with the openreach modem.

The primary purpose of that port is for FTTP services but it works on FTTC also.

I ran my HH5 like that for months on trial.

for the record the HH4 managed a reasonable sync speed on my (non-BT Broadband) line...

( 107.820000) ETHoA is up - VPI: 0, VCI:35
00:01:47, 01 Jan. ( 107.820000) DSL is up
00:01:46, 01 Jan. ( 106.910000) DSL noise margin: 5.90 dB upstream, 3.00 dB downstream
00:01:44, 01 Jan. ( 104.900000) DSL line rate: 1132 Kbps upstream, 10900 Kbps downstream

about the same as the resident technicolor gets. I wasn't able to use the BT test logins to get a connection and see if the ping issues were present, the thing just sat playing at auto-configuration for an hour or two. The 0,35 in the log was interesting.

ETA Technicolor :

DSL Type: ITU-T G.992.5
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1.176 / 11.209
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12,7 / 0,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 20,3 / 39,5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 5,8 / 3,1

Edited by yarwell (Thu 07-Nov-13 11:54:04)

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Let's just simply say this. On installation the HH5 is used without an OR modem on a FTTC service. Later you decide that you want to use your own router because it contains features that the HH5 doesn't support. So you get your own desired router and also nip onto eBay to pick up an OR modem for twenty quid or so. Will your privately sourced OR modem provide a service to the WAN socket of the new router? Theory is one thing but has anyone actually got that set up to work?

My "official" setup is a separate OR-supplied NGA ECI-MODEM and a HH3.

I've tested:

OR-supplied modem with a suitable Thomson TG582n (WAN on port 4).
ebay-supplied NGA ECI-MODEM and the HH3.

Both setups work fine. I don't see any reason why replacing the HH5 with a similar setup shouldn't work.

John.

In reply to a post by John_ON:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Let's just simply say this. On installation the HH5 is used without an OR modem on a FTTC service. Later you decide that you want to use your own router because it contains features that the HH5 doesn't support. So you get your own desired router and also nip onto eBay to pick up an OR modem for twenty quid or so. Will your privately sourced OR modem provide a service to the WAN socket of the new router? Theory is one thing but has anyone actually got that set up to work?

My "official" setup is a separate OR-supplied NGA ECI-MODEM and a HH3.

I've tested:

OR-supplied modem with a suitable Thomson TG582n (WAN on port 4).
ebay-supplied NGA ECI-MODEM and the HH3.

Both setups work fine. I don't see any reason why replacing the HH5 with a similar setup shouldn't work.

John.

I think I must be having a bad week at the office with my grasp of English and typos not conveying what I wish to say. So let's try again.

Irrespective of the router you are using, can you replace the officially supplied OR modem on a FTTC service with a privately purchased equivalent one, from say eBay?

Conversely if your current setup just has a HH5 router, installed without an official supplied OR modem, on a FFTC service, that you wish to replace with a router of your choice, then in most cases an OR modem will be required. Again if you privately purchase an OR modem are there any issues connecting this up to your new router? It is suggested, but not confirmed, that this would not be a problem.

Similarly on Virgin media you may wish to ditch the supplied "all in one" cable modem/ router with a separate router and cable modem. Personally I believe trying to do that will run into all sorts of issues. However as it happens the newer "all in one" from Virgin can be downgraded to modem mode only, something that apparently is not an HH5 feature.

As others have said many people have bought their own modem from private sources and used it on FTTC connections. If you had an HH5 and wished to replace it then a privately purchased modem should work.

Can anyone give you a guarantee that every privately purchased modem will work? No

Can anyone give you a guarantee that BT won't do something in the future that for some reason stopped this from working? No

What other guarantees are you looking for *users* on this forum to provide? Your questions have been answered several times to the best capacity of the people who (people who do not make the policies at BT).

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

In reply to a post by John_ON:

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Let's just simply say this. On installation the HH5 is used without an OR modem on a FTTC service. Later you decide that you want to use your own router because it contains features that the HH5 doesn't support. So you get your own desired router and also nip onto eBay to pick up an OR modem for twenty quid or so. Will your privately sourced OR modem provide a service to the WAN socket of the new router? Theory is one thing but has anyone actually got that set up to work?

My "official" setup is a separate OR-supplied NGA ECI-MODEM and a HH3.

I've tested:

OR-supplied modem with a suitable Thomson TG582n (WAN on port 4).
ebay-supplied NGA ECI-MODEM and the HH3.

Both setups work fine. I don't see any reason why replacing the HH5 with a similar setup shouldn't work.

John.

I think I must be having a bad week at the office with my grasp of English and typos not conveying what I wish to say. So let's try again.

Irrespective of the router you are using, can you replace the officially supplied OR modem on a FTTC service with a privately purchased equivalent one, from say eBay?

Conversely if your current setup just has a HH5 router, installed without an official supplied OR modem, on a FFTC service, that you wish to replace with a router of your choice, then in most cases an OR modem will be required. Again if you privately purchase an OR modem are there any issues connecting this up to your new router? It is suggested, but not confirmed, that this would not be a problem.

Similarly on Virgin media you may wish to ditch the supplied "all in one" cable modem/ router with a separate router and cable modem. Personally I believe trying to do that will run into all sorts of issues. However as it happens the newer "all in one" from Virgin can be downgraded to modem mode only, something that apparently is not an HH5 feature.

I think you may be looking for complications where there are none.

Irrespective of the router you are using, can you replace the officially supplied OR modem on a FTTC service with a privately purchased equivalent one, from say eBay?

Yes.

I'm not using a HH5 so can't directly answer your second question but I'd be very surprised if it didn't work.

If you really want to use a different router, I suggest getting a brand new OR modem off ebay for less than £20. Plug it in and, if the DSL light lights, the connection to the DSLAM in the cabinet is confirmed and you will have a PPPoE WAN connection at the ethernet port awaiting a suitable router of your choice.

Can't comment about Virgin but I suspect it may establish the connection based on the MAC address of the modem/router. I've just swapped my OR modem for my ebay OR 'spare' and my internet address didn't change, if that means anything.

John.

Just to muddy the water a little bit, in two ways.

First, I don't think anybody has mentioned that the Huawei Openreach modem is in fact a modem/router locked into bridge mode. I expect the eBay ones are loaded with the Openreach or hacked (unlocked but set to bridge mode) firmware but haven't checked any.

The ECI modem I believe is also a modem/router locked to bridge mode, but not sure.

Second, so far as I know the only VDSL2 router approved by Openreach is the HH5, and I don't think even that should yet be being fitted stand-alone by OR contractors. Has none-fitting of the OR "modem" been authorised yet?

Other modem routers are known to work, as has been said earlier. Whether they comply with the published Openreach specification of requirements for forward compatability is another question.

At long last a response that is not confusing and answers all my question. The case is now closed. With many thanks.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

so far as I know the only VDSL2 router approved by Openreach is the HH5, and I don't think even that should yet be being fitted stand-alone by OR contractors. Has none-fitting of the OR "modem" been authorised yet?

I am not aware of an official statement that any products have been approved by Openreach, but I think we can take it as read that any router with a built in VDSL2 modem supplied by an ISP has successfully passed the Openreach compatibility tests laid down in SIN 498.

In fact, it was EE who were first to market with their integrated VDSL2 router - the new BrightBox 2 has a built in VDSL2 modem. BT Retail's Home Hub 5 came to market a little later on.


I believe that installation of FTTC without an Openreach modem is only supposed to happen as part of ongoing trials.

In reply to a post by John_ON:

Can't comment about Virgin but I suspect it may establish the connection based on the MAC address of the modem/router.

With Virgin Media, you have to use the devices they rent to you as part of your subscription. They will not provision customer owned devices, which are therefore unable to connect to the cable network.

I didn't know EE were doing one, thanks , and agree with your other two points.

I think I saw a post the other day that one of the ones "illicitly" in use is to, or does now, have vectoring-capable firmware available for download. Vectoring support being one of the requirements.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 07-Nov-13 15:38:12)

In reply to a post by trolleybus:

Similarly on Virgin media you may wish to ditch the supplied "all in one" cable modem/ router with a separate router and cable modem. Personally I believe trying to do that will run into all sorts of issues. However as it happens the newer "all in one" from Virgin can be downgraded to modem mode only, something that apparently is not an HH5 feature.

The all in one only started when they switched the network to DOCSIS 3.0. When I had cable back in 1999 I had the original 3Com CMX which was DOCSIS 1.0 and I had to pay for outright, costing £150. To activate me, they had to take the cable side MAC address, which was separate to the Ethernet side. Then they had several models of DOCSIS 1.1, and 2.0 modems, until the "superhub" arrived - and it took them ages to get a firmware for thIs that did modem mode.

Cable is quite dramatically different to any xDSL (ADSL or VDSL) service as your modem being faulty can really affect the service to others, plus on Virgin and other EU networks, a lot of the speed limiting is actually done by a configuration set at the modem. So as you can guess there is a lot of security to stop people trying to hack, which gets more and more complex.

The xDSL services don't have this complexity.

My understanding is the main selling point of the home hub 4 is it is not just dual band but concurrent dual bands. So it can have connections to it using 802.11g and 802.11n at the same time.

Many 802.11n routers can only do one at a time so if one person connects at 802.11g everyone has to meaning you probably won't be able to use the full speed of a good fibre connection and are not really any better off than with the 802.11g box most of us probably have already.

Most providers do not offer this. You could of course buy one off the shelf that does this but they are still £50 and up generally. While most routers can be picked up off ebay for £10-£20 quid easily the concurrent dual band ones still command a premium. (you will be lucky to sell a plus.net fibre single band router for £5 on ebay...)

Oh and watch out, dual band does not seem to always mean concurrent dual band...

Other than this it seems to be the standard slightly [censored] Bt product. They clearly start with the premise that they want a really shiny box and then stuff in the cheapest build possible. But that said they still basically work. They are just a bit annoyingly non standard and probably under perform slightly compared with a third party white box with a bunch of antennae sticking out the box.

Still well done them for getting concurrent dual band in, its genuinely something useful I think.

In reply to a post by mnbvcxz:

My understanding is the main selling point of the home hub 4 is it is not just dual band but concurrent dual bands. So it can have connections to it using 802.11g and 802.11n at the same time.

I think the change for the 4 was the WiFi as you say, and the 5 was the same as the 4 but with the internal VDSL modem.

Oh and watch out, dual band does not seem to always mean concurrent dual band...

Yes, as the first Virgin Media Superhub shows. Switchable is pretty useless to most homes as we all have something that is G only.

The reason I dislike the HH 5 is the lack of "modem mode" - so when people start getting these and no Openreach VDSL modem (or the equivalent with Sky and TalkTalk) it won't be possible to replace with your own router. I'm personally using an ASUS RT-N66U and very happy with it. Concurrent dual band and 3 stream, so 450megbit/sec on each channel - so advertised as "900".

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I think the change for the 4 was the WiFi as you say, and the 5 was the same as the 4 but with the internal VDSL modem.

Home Hub 5 also supports 802.11ac.

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I think the change for the 4 was the WiFi as you say, and the 5 was the same as the 4 but with the internal VDSL modem.

Home Hub 5 also supports 802.11ac.

Interesting! I guess with such a quick revision that BT's supplier had not expected to get AC ready so fast.

The benefits of AC are unclear to me, its improving the 5GHz band to go faster, but my experience of 5GHz is that its useful to avoid congested 2.4, but it doesn't travel very far around the home compared to 2.4.

Has anyone any real life AC experience to talk about?

The 0,35 in the log was interesting.

0,35 was what used to be put in the dial up entry for the original ADSL USB modems, isn't it the VPI/VCI setting ??????

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The 0,35 in the log was interesting.

0,35 was what used to be put in the dial up entry for the original ADSL USB modems, isn't it the VPI/VCI setting ??????

We used to put 0,38 and they are the VPI/VCI for the BTwholesale network. Some other LLU use other attributes, noticeably BE/O2.

and I don't think even that should yet be being fitted stand-alone by OR contractors.

Well I've found two sitting waiting for me on installs in the last two weeks, I don't do many FTTC installs, so it can't just be me that's seeing them.

Yes, that was it ......... it's been a long day !

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I think the change for the 4 was the WiFi as you say, and the 5 was the same as the 4 but with the internal VDSL modem.

Home Hub 5 also supports 802.11ac.

Interesting! I guess with such a quick revision that BT's supplier had not expected to get AC ready so fast.

The benefits of AC are unclear to me, its improving the 5GHz band to go faster, but my experience of 5GHz is that its useful to avoid congested 2.4, but it doesn't travel very far around the home compared to 2.4.

Has anyone any real life AC experience to talk about?

yeah I have got over 400mbit throughput on it. using the BT AC dongle and hh5. I hit the cap of the usb2 port.

By the way if you use things like smartphones 5GHZ I learnt is very useful. All my android phones forcefully only use 20MHZ wide band on 2.4ghz (probably to be polite) so on 5ghz they get doubled speeds. I think more and more vendors are starting to not allow.

Edited by Chrysalis (Sat 09-Nov-13 09:21:18)

In reply to a post by Chrysalis:

yeah I have got over 400mbit throughput on it. using the BT AC dongle and hh5. I hit the cap of the usb2 port.

Great news!

By the way if you use things like smartphones 5GHZ I learnt is very useful. All my android phones forcefully only use 20MHZ wide band on 2.4ghz (probably to be polite) so on 5ghz they get doubled speeds. I think more and more vendors are starting to not allow.

I know this was the case with apple kit, all their laptops, desktops and phones/tablets only do 20mhz at 2.4GHz - but I didn't know other makes were doing this too.

Its a good idea, anything to stop the default "out of the box" configuration of these cheap 2.4GHz N routers being set to 40mhz mode. For people who have only a max of 15 Mbps broadband and no home devices its pointless :-/

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

and I don't think even that should yet be being fitted stand-alone by OR contractors.

Well I've found two sitting waiting for me on installs in the last two weeks, I don't do many FTTC installs, so it can't just be me that's seeing them.

But did you install them stand-alone, or with the modem? If stand-alone, is that officially OK?

In reply to a post by Oliver341:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

I think the change for the 4 was the WiFi as you say, and the 5 was the same as the 4 but with the internal VDSL modem.

Home Hub 5 also supports 802.11ac.

And gigabit LAN on more than 1 port.

The HH5 was one reason I decided to leave sky. Their router is rather basic.

In reply to a post by Kr1s69:

The HH5 was one reason I decided to leave sky. Their router is rather basic.

Understood - BT charged me P&P for a HH3 that has been used for 10mnutes. Its rubbish too At least with BT, I can plug in a decent router such as my Asus RT-N66U easily. Sky make that deliberately hard today.

Yep, that's what our brief states, if they've got a 5, just fit that.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Yep, that's what our brief states, if they've got a 5, just fit that.

On an up to 30 metre vdsl extension also?

That's good .

there aren't really any "settings" of note, at least not via publically displayed pages. I just clocked the above in a log, perhaps its the TR-069 auto-config in action or something.

Seems the HH4 doesn't like my family, daughter got one for Infinity that was DOA and the Openreach tech got an older version off his van to get her connected.