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Standard User MHC
(legend) Tue 06-Dec-11 22:04:03
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Profile Steps


[link to this post]
 
I had 38717 profile for months before a sudden step down to around 339xx/340xx and another down to 328xx

Tonight after 7 months I have seen a sudden recovery, although no loss of sync registered and I am back at 38716 ! Who knows why?

Are there defined major profile steps or is it really as fine as 1kbps?





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Croftie
(member) Tue 06-Dec-11 22:53:43
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
I beleive it could well be as fine as 1kbps steps.

Your history sounds simular to mine. 38717 for the first 8 months, then 5 Mb drop with fluxuating profile for 5 months untill 17a kicked in and gave me back 38716.

These are all the profiles I've seen during that 5 month wobbly period. The smallest gap between consecutive profile changes was 9kbps.

33566
33730
33827
33836
33865
34532
34933
36628
37585
37616
38173
38716
38717
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Tue 06-Dec-11 23:06:06
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
It's roughly 88% of sync, so even if there are steps they are very small and can be disregarded.

If you are sure there has been no re-sync I wonder if it could be that the DLM does after a long time sort out a jump needed by an long-term higher sync? I think we have evidence in earlier posts that people who have had faults fixed have needed the engineer fixing it to call for a reset on the line, otherwise speed is not regained. Maybe your sync should have been delivering higher for ages?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.


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Standard User MHC
(legend) Tue 06-Dec-11 23:11:15
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
It has had a couple of deliberate power cycles recently and also an engineer requested line reset - which resulted in a 20k drop! So it seems to have been delivering to a limit.

Maybe there has been a soft resync ... and maybe I have gone to 17a but until I can flash te modem I will not know.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(regular) Tue 06-Dec-11 23:18:30
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
It has had a couple of deliberate power cycles recently and also an engineer requested line reset - which resulted in a 20k drop! So it seems to have been delivering to a limit.

Maybe there has been a soft resync ... and maybe I have gone to 17a but until I can flash te modem I will not know.


It appears that the FTTC connection is able to resync "on the fly". i.e. dynamically allocated IP addresses are maintained, your ISP doesn't see the event in their log file, but a substantial change in sync speed & thus profile can be observed by the end user.
Standard User Croftie
(member) Wed 07-Dec-11 00:11:15
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:
It appears that the FTTC connection is able to resync "on the fly". i.e. dynamically allocated IP addresses are maintained

That happened to me recently. There is a technical term but I can't remember it atm.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 07-Dec-11 00:13:56
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
You referring to Seamless rate adaption?



______________________________________________________________________________. __________________
Standard User Croftie
(member) Wed 07-Dec-11 00:16:08
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
Yes that's the one.
Standard User BatBoy
(legend) Wed 07-Dec-11 00:23:30
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
Hmm
VDSL2 adopts a number of improvements to better tackle the various bandwidth needs of different operators.

For example, VDSL2 supports improved impulse noise protection (INP), impulse noise monitoring (INM), SRA, U0 PSD (power spectral density) shaping, and new service and initialization policies for enhanced triple play stability. Other advanced technologies such as emergency rate reduction (SOS), dynamic rate repartitioning (DRR), and crosstalk channel estimation and mitigation techniques are also being proposed in the standard.




______________________________________________________________________________. __________________
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 07-Dec-11 00:32:59
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: BatBoy] [link to this post]
 
But Openreach is the operator, so the question is what have they implemented.

Don't forget SRA is supported on ADSL2+.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User kasg
(committed) Wed 07-Dec-11 10:33:40
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
It's roughly 88% of sync, so even if there are steps they are very small and can be disregarded.

The highest possible profile on FTTC (38717) is over 96% of the highest possible sync (39999 or 40000)

Kevin

plusnet Value Fibre
My Broadband Speed Test
Using OpenDNS
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 07-Dec-11 15:48:28
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: kasg] [link to this post]
 
Good point - I was thinking of the WBC version. Sorry.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Wed 07-Dec-11 15:52:58
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
Worryingly, (for me), I did a BT speed test yesterday and found my profile was 38715. I have only ever seen 38717 before.

I appear to be on the 17a profile now, as my estimated uplaod speed is 11.5Mbps, where it was 8.9 or something before. I wonder - is anyone seeing a 38717 on 17a, or may things now be slightly different?

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User kasg
(committed) Wed 07-Dec-11 17:42:49
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
Mine's now 38716 - first time I've seen that.

Kevin

plusnet Value Fibre
My Broadband Speed Test
Using OpenDNS
Standard User ChriX
(newbie) Wed 07-Dec-11 22:28:41
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I've got 38710, but no idea what my sync is.
Standard User Alnath
(fountain of knowledge) Thu 08-Dec-11 11:00:09
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: ChriX] [link to this post]
 
Mine is:

IP Profile for your line is -38714 Kbps
Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 08-Dec-11 11:12:01
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
So, reports show 38717, 38716, 38715, 38714 ... looks as though they are 1k steps





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User colesy10
(regular) Thu 08-Dec-11 11:36:58
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
On 8c profile I had full 38717, now on 17a and on 38716.
Standard User kasg
(committed) Thu 08-Dec-11 11:55:20
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: colesy10] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by colesy10:
On 8c profile I had full 38717, now on 17a and on 38716.
Sounds like I'm on 17a then, all good!

Kevin

plusnet Value Fibre
My Broadband Speed Test
Using OpenDNS
Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 08-Dec-11 13:10:26
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: kasg] [link to this post]
 
Or are you ?

If 38716 is a 17a profile and not 8c you could be but it is not a very good assumption to make as people are also reporting 38715 and 38714 so where would they be?

I was aware that my exchange was not scheduled for cabinet upgrades until January - and may well still be on 8c ...





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Croftie
(member) Thu 08-Dec-11 22:22:04
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Looks that way. I just went through the forum and gathered all the IPProfile reports I could find and added them to the ones I've seen. There was one instance of 38718 being reported http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4054740-ftt...

The smallest gaps seen so far are 1,2,4,9,10,19,31. This isn't a comprehensive list but there doesn't seem to be potential for a pattern to emerge. I'm going to keep and eye out for new IPProfiles and add them to the list. I agree though, it looks likely that a 1kbps scale is used.

Text
1
23
45
67
89
1011
1213
1415
1617
1819
2021
2223
2425
2627
2829
3031
32
23179
23317 +13823487 +170
24281 +79425373 +1092
26249 +87626530 +281
28778 +224832339 +3561
33566 +122733730 +164
33827 +9733836 +9
33846 +1033865 +19
33867 +234532 +665
34799 +26734933 +134
36628 +169536632 +4
36811 +17937585 +774
37616 +3138173 +557
38399 +22638704 +305
38714 +1038715 +1
38716 +138717 +1
38718 +1
Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 08-Dec-11 23:31:03
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
A few to add ...

32602
32645
32692
32757
32792
32796
32834
32846
32881
32893
33535
33820
33924
33932
33947
33959
33978
34016
34059
34066
34082
38716
38717





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User Croftie
(member) Sat 10-Dec-11 03:39:01
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
Cheers MHC, can't edit post above so I'll put the list on pastebin and update it there. http://pastebin.com/nj58TZac
Standard User WWWombat
(committed) Sun 11-Dec-11 15:41:48
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
I had 38717 for the first few days on 8c without interleaving, which then got DLM'd to 34799, with interleaving.

When I first swapped to 17a, the IP Profile was 38716, without interleaving.
We then had a burst of errors, so DLM put interleaving back on. The profile is now 38714.

I imagine it is caused by rounding errors, based on exactly how many tones are used, in which frequency bands.
Standard User ChriX
(newbie) Fri 13-Jan-12 08:51:37
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
Just to update my previous post of 38710k , I had a drop in speed for a couple of weeks down to about 35Mb (didn't record profile here), but now it has increased again and I am on 38718 k.
Standard User TheHorseman
(knowledge is power) Fri 13-Jan-12 09:18:37
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: colesy10] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by colesy10:
On 8c profile I had full 38717, now on 17a and on 38716.

This is exactly what I have seen with my connection.

BT -> Zen -> F2S -> Bulldog -> Be* -> BT Infinity
Say it with flowers, give her a Triffid smile
Standard User Croftie
(member) Fri 13-Jan-12 17:30:02
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: ChriX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ChriX:
38710k

Thanks for posting that again I missed it on my first scan. Added to the IP Profile list. Your also only the second person to report a profile of 38718.

I saw a drop to 33-35 while on 8c and the change to 17a restored full sync again, that may explain your drop and subsequent restoration of sync.

Edited by Croftie (Fri 13-Jan-12 17:31:58)

Standard User nelix01
(committed) Sat 14-Jan-12 10:40:23
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
Just though you would like this:

IP Profile for your line is -38399 Kbps

Standard User ChriX
(newbie) Sat 14-Jan-12 10:47:54
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Croftie:
Thanks for posting that again I missed it on my first scan. Added to the IP Profile list. Your also only the second person to report a profile of 38718.


No problem, I wonder if there is a link with the equipment used for the cabinet and modem, as I also seem to be the only person on the forum running an ECI modem instead of the Huawei.
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(member) Sat 14-Jan-12 10:56:44
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
Hi Croftie,

In reply to a post by Croftie:
Looks that way. I just went through the forum and gathered all the IPProfile reports I could find and added them to the ones I've seen. There was one instance of 38718 being reported http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4054740-ftt...


FWIW, this is mine:-

IP Profile 27914 k

http://speedtest.net/result/1706412506.png
Standard User asbokid
(regular) Sat 14-Jan-12 18:44:36
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: ChriX] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by ChriX:
No problem, I wonder if there is a link with the equipment used for the cabinet and modem, as I also seem to be the only person on the forum running an ECI modem instead of the Huawei.

Any chance you could take some photos of the PCB in the ECI?

In BT's Care in the Community forum there are two more people with ECI FTTC modems.. [1]

A Russian blog confirms that the chipset of the ECI ONT unit for FTTP is a MIPS-based device from Broadlight. [2]

Broadlight has its R&D facility headquartered in Israel and has collaborated with ECI for some years, so best guess is that the chipset in the ECI FTTC unit supplied by Openreach is from the Broadlight Helios processor family. [3]

cheers, a

[1] http://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Infinity/BT-Infinity-O...
[2] http://darkbyte.ru/2011/9/eci-b-focus-o-4f2p/
[3] http://www.broadlight.com/products/helios-processors

Edited by asbokid (Sat 14-Jan-12 19:10:51)

Standard User Croftie
(member) Sun 15-Jan-12 01:36:49
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: ChriX] [link to this post]
 
Interesting, I wonder if max profile on the ECI modem is 38718 but on the Huawei 38717.
Standard User Croftie
(member) Sun 15-Jan-12 01:39:15
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
Hi Bald_Eagle, first in the 27*** range.. added to the list, thanks
Standard User Croftie
(member) Sun 15-Jan-12 01:39:34
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: nelix01] [link to this post]
 
Thanks nelix, there is a link to the full list on pastbin a couple of posts above.
Standard User JoshShep
(newbie) Tue 17-Jan-12 15:55:43
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
Just thought I'd make a member on here because I also have an ECI modem. The model number is: B-FOCuS v-2FUb/I Rev. B

It's interesting that there are different models but I have also been experiencing frequent disconnections every evening. my ISP is TalkTalk and have had issues for over a month. I thought the dropouts were due to the modem but I could be wrong.
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(member) Tue 17-Jan-12 16:59:14
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
Hi Croftie,

In reply to a post by Croftie:
Hi Bald_Eagle, first in the 27*** range.. added to the list, thanks


Here's another "first" for you then:-

Only 22497 k today (following a few uninitiated re-syncs yesterday that were bad enough this time to cause the PPP session & IP adresses to change)

It actually synced as low as 18104 k for a while, but I wasn't at home at the time to grab the IP Profile.

Paul.
Standard User Croftie
(member) Wed 18-Jan-12 04:24:13
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
Still haveing problems! Sorry to hear that. I would seriously be thinking about an ISP move by now.
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(member) Wed 18-Jan-12 08:31:38
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Croftie] [link to this post]
 
@ Croftie,

I am only 7 months into an 18 month contract, with cessation charges if I changed ISP.

IMO, connection problems really rest with BT though, as they are resposible for the infrastructure.

My ISP has been quite supportive, organising numerous engineer visits whenever I have been able to prove further faults etc.

BT just won't respond though if a connection "appears" stable & it exceeds their own conservative speed estimates, falling within their "acceptable" performance limits.

Faults are all so much harder to prove with ISPs not having access to full diagnosis tools for VDSL2 connections & users having to use "locked" modems with no "official" means of monitoring their own connection statistics etc.

I have an unlocked HG612 modem & have developed Windows versions of the linux scripts & tools to monitor ALL my connection's stats, either on demand whenever I wish to generate snapshot stats/graphs and my ongoing/changing stats 24/7 via data logs that are harvested every minute (a little like RouterStats).

It is only being able to provide these stats/graphs that has enabled my ISP to keep pushing BT to rectify the faults (a bit at a time) on my connection.

The tools currently available to ISPs simply do not record most of our connection re-syncs, changes in SNRM levels, excessive corrected & uncorrected error counts, connection time between re-syncs at varying speeds etc. as these type of re-syncs are so quick from disconnection to reconnection (less than 20 seconds) & don't drop the PPP session or change the dynamically allocated IP address.

ISPs can/do blissfully & genuinely believe that connections are perfectly stable, when in reality the complete opposite may be the case.

If anyone wishes to try out the Windows only versions of the scripts I mentioned above, they can be downloaded via this link:-

Huawei HG612 graphing scripts

graph.sh is the Linux version that can also be used via a Linux scripting shell such as Cygwin on a Windows machine.

The Windows only version is hg612_wingraphs.zip (no need to install any Linux shells).

Prior to downloading or using the Windows versions I advise reading the summary of what the scripts actually do (hg612_wingraphs_SUMMARY.TXT).

The Windows only scripts have been fully tested on Windows 7 & Vista machines, & will probably work (a bit slower) on XP machines.

A tiny edit of one batch file is required to ensure that fonts are displayed at the correct style/size for Vista (& presumably XP).

If anyone tries these out, I would appreciate some feedback on the setting up process & general use of them.

It would also be good to see a few example graphs, for different connection comparison purposes

Full setting up instructions & links to various other required program downloads are included in the zip file.

Once set up, a simple double-click on the relevant batch file icon will generate the graphs from the ongoing log or harvest current stats & generate the snapshot graphs, storing the output in dated subfolders for future reference.

There is also an easy method of generating graphs from previous log files (preferably but not essentially PuTTy.log), although some of the graphs/text data will be absent if not all the relevant data was included in the previous log file.

Due to how the Windows scripts operate, there is no longer a requirement to manually login to a Telnet session, or the modem itself.


Paul.

Snapshot Example Graphs

Ongoing Example Graphs

Edited by Bald_Eagle1 (Wed 18-Jan-12 08:53:50)

Standard User Croftie
(member) Wed 18-Jan-12 23:46:29
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:
IMO, connection problems really rest with BT though, as they are resposible for the infrastructure.

I agree, isn't there an ISP that has more success than most in getting BT to fix stuff they would otherwise ignor. I think it was A&A. Unless your ISP would release you early though that's not much use ATM.
Standard User lee111s
(newbie) Thu 19-Jan-12 02:15:05
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:
IMO, connection problems really rest with BT though, as they are resposible for the infrastructure.


Openreach own the infrastructure. There's no such thing as "BT being responsible" any more. BT don't own and maintain the lines, Openreach do.

Each ISP has equal access to both BT Wholesale and Openreach to deal with broadband issues. While one ISP may seem to have better results in getting things sorted, ultimately, regardless of which ISP you are with it'll be the same Openreach engineers who visit.
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(member) Thu 19-Jan-12 06:10:16
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by lee111s:
Openreach own the infrastructure. There's no such thing as "BT being responsible" any more. BT don't own and maintain the lines, Openreach do.

O.K. - Openreach is a still BT group company. Perhaps I could/should have distinguished between BT as a whole & Openreach.
What we do
Our 21,000 Openreach field engineers make around 3.2 million visits every year to install, repair and maintain the network that makes communication possible. Openreach is also committed to delivering a broadband capable network that strives to meet future bandwidth demands.

We work on behalf of the 400+ Communications Providers (CPs) in the UK providing an identical and equivalent service to all.

Although part of the BT Group, Openreach engineers are dedicated to supporting Openreach. As a result they treat other BT lines of business in exactly the same way as they treat all other CPs in the UK.


Each ISP has equal access to both BT Wholesale and Openreach to deal with broadband issues. While one ISP may seem to have better results in getting things sorted, ultimately, regardless of which ISP you are with it'll be the same Openreach engineers who visit.


I think you are referring to the terms of "Equivalence" that BT/Openreach have to adhere to, in that they are not allowed to give preferential treatment to any ISP, even if it is owned by another part of the BT group of companies.

AAISP did build a reputation at one time for getting things fixed.
From what I have read recently, under these "Equivalence" terms they appear to be less successful.

My ISP is actually owned by BT, but they also have to be treated exactly the same as any other ISP.

The point I was trying to make was that it is very easy to blame an ISP for connection problems. However, if the aged infrastructure (wires etc.) is just not up to it, whoever is responsible for maintaining/repairing the infrastructure is at blame.
Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 19-Jan-12 09:24:36
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by lee111s:
In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:
IMO, connection problems really rest with BT though, as they are resposible for the infrastructure.


Openreach own the infrastructure. There's no such thing as "BT being responsible" any more. BT don't own and maintain the lines, Openreach do.

Each ISP has equal access to both BT Wholesale and Openreach to deal with broadband issues. While one ISP may seem to have better results in getting things sorted, ultimately, regardless of which ISP you are with it'll be the same Openreach engineers who visit.


And who owns Openreach? As you appear not to know the answer, it is BT. So, ultimately BT own the lines and the maintenance is undertaken by their subsidiary - Openreach.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 19-Jan-12 10:17:07
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:
AAISP did build a reputation at one time for getting things fixed.
From what I have read recently, under these "Equivalence" terms they appear to be less successful.
There is nothing in the equivalence terms to prevent any particular customer of Openreach getting better results from the service by more effective kicking of the mule.

The terms do not specify a level of dissatisfaction to be maintained for all customers.

I think AAISP may be getting some unhelpful repsonses at the moment, but it certainly isn't an OfCom requirement smile. The unusually extensive AAISP customer line monitoring in itself must help resolve issues.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User lee111s
(newbie) Thu 19-Jan-12 10:22:51
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MHC:
In reply to a post by lee111s:
In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:
IMO, connection problems really rest with BT though, as they are resposible for the infrastructure.


Openreach own the infrastructure. There's no such thing as "BT being responsible" any more. BT don't own and maintain the lines, Openreach do.

Each ISP has equal access to both BT Wholesale and Openreach to deal with broadband issues. While one ISP may seem to have better results in getting things sorted, ultimately, regardless of which ISP you are with it'll be the same Openreach engineers who visit.


And who owns Openreach? As you appear not to know the answer, it is BT. So, ultimately BT own the lines and the maintenance is undertaken by their subsidiary - Openreach.


No, Openreach own the lines, they are their own business, have their own CEO and they have their own annual budget. Yes they are part of the BT Group but "BT" do not own the lines. It is 100% the responsibility of Openreach to make improvements IF necessary and cost effective.

Edited by lee111s (Thu 19-Jan-12 10:25:09)

Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 19-Jan-12 10:29:50
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
Wrong.

The network is listed as a BT Group asset.

It does not matter whether OR have responsibility for the lines. BTGroup owns OR and also owns the lines.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 19-Jan-12 10:53:16
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
but "BT" do not own the lines
Maybe you should define "BT", and explain why the other posters are not entitled to use a different definition of BT. Are you perhaps objecting to a simple semi-typo, in that the original post you object to should have said, (and I agree it should precisely for clarity and to prevent this sort of conversation), "BT Openreach"?

Who appoints the CEO of BT Openreach?

The people you are talking to are fully aware of the setup. They are not in the same category as others you may perhaps legitimately address, who truly are not aware of the separate BT Group companies and the relationships between them.

In real life your assumption of absolute equivalence is untenable.

Any company, Chinese Walled or not, will always take note of the needs and desires of its biggest customers, whilst honestly trying to deliver an equal standard of customer care to all. For example, it is highly possible for BT Openreach to take greater notice of BT Wholesale and BT Retail requirements when designing products than of mine if I set up a 5000-customer ISP. Equivalence cannot and should not stop that.

Edit - typos.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 19-Jan-12 10:56:08)

Standard User lee111s
(newbie) Thu 19-Jan-12 12:29:46
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
The company is not called BT Openreach. It's called Openreach. You would't call virgin media helpdesk if you had a problem with your virgin credit card would you? Same premise.

The CEO will be appointed by the board of directors.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 19-Jan-12 12:45:58
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
The company is not called BT Openreach. It's called Openreach.
Looks like pantomime time smile.

Oh no it isn't.

There is no UK listed company Openreach.

If you go to the bottom of this page, it clearly says "© British Telecommunications plc 2011".

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 19-Jan-12 12:48:35
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by lee111s:
The CEO will be appointed by the board of directors.
Of which UK listed company? I doubt if Openreach has a "Board" in the legal sense, though I'm prepared to be proved wrong about that.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Standard User lee111s
(newbie) Thu 19-Jan-12 12:59:49
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
The reason they're not called BT Openreach is to get people away from the "BT" are at fault when it comes to a line not working...typically in the past many many ISP's would tell customers that it's BT's fault and that the customer had to contact BT to get an issue fixed. BT Retail of course can do nothing for you if your broadband is not supplied by them.

I agree that it's Openreach, a BT Group business but it's not BT Openreach. I know this can seem petty but it's how it is.

The board of directors for BT Group will be responsible however for all intents and purposes Openreach are a their own business and are not associated with BT Retail or BT Wholesale when it comes to their copper (and now fibre) network.
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(member) Thu 19-Jan-12 13:24:19
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
Without wishing to prolong the discussion regarding different companies within the BT group, who is actually responsible for the equipment (DSLAM etc.) inside the FIBRE cabinet & any patch cables from the FIBRE cabinet to the old cabinet?

All the visiting engineers (regardless of skill set / job description / who they work for etc.) have informed me that they have no access whatsoever to the actual FIBRE cabinet.

How can potential FTTC faults be FULLY investigated if the engineers can't actually see, never mind touch part of the FTTC equipment?

e.g. What if 40Mb is just about available inside the FIBRE cabinet, or even at the other end of the patch cable, but it just doesn't have sufficient power to push it a few hundred yards without losing 10Mb to 20Mb on its way?
Who could/would investigate that?
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 19-Jan-12 13:27:47
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
It is equally "how it is" that BT can legitimately be said to be at fault.

I also repeat:-
The people you are talking to are fully aware of the setup. They are not in the same category as others you may perhaps legitimately address, who truly are not aware of the separate BT Group companies and the relationships between them.
The people you are talking to fully understood what the OP meant, as did you. I maintain the better term would have been BT Openreach, and see no reason we shouldn't use that term, particularly given the logo on all Openreach web pages.

If British Telecommnications plc choose to include that logo, the strong intention must be that readers associate Openreach with BT. There can be no other reason for its otherwise pointless inclusion.

On that basis alone your argument collapses.

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 19-Jan-12 13:35:50)

Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 19-Jan-12 13:30:36
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
All the FTTC kit up until the first point of the GEA handover point (usually in a nearby phone exchange) is part of the Openreach company

The engineers won't have access as they don't have the training. There is not just one type of openreach engineer.

The sufficient power comments don't make sense? If the DSLAM does not have sufficient power via mains, this will result in it reporting an error to remote location before probably switching off. The lose of speed over the distance of copper cable is down to basic physics and how frequencies of signals are attenuated by copper.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(member) Thu 19-Jan-12 13:50:58
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
The sufficient power comments don't make sense? If the DSLAM does not have sufficient power via mains, this will result in it reporting an error to remote location before probably switching off. The lose of speed over the distance of copper cable is down to basic physics and how frequencies of signals are attenuated by copper.


I'll try to re-phrase my query.
I actually meant Output Power, not mains power.

I am aware that Output Power is often adjusted on a case-by-case basis to help avoid crosstalk onto nearby ADSL connections, but I have no idea by how much, or even where the adjustments are made.

If Output Power is low, either due to an intentional reduction or a fault within the FIBRE cabinet or a HR issue within its patch cable, who would deal with it?

I am clutching at straws in an attempt to understand why I achieved 33Mb actual download speeds for the first month on 8c.
My connection had various physical D-side "faults" fixed, both before & after the switch to 17a, yet my initial higher speeds have not returned.

From all the posts I can recall, users have experienced an increase in DS speeds, at the expense of a loss of some US speed since being switched to 17a.

If their attainable rates were already well in excess of 40Mb/10Mb, they won't have seen any material effect on actual download speed while speeds are still capped.

However, I have seen a number of posts confirming that users who were downloading at around 33 - 35Mb, were suddenly able to download a lot closer to the 40Mb following the switch to 17a.

Edited by Bald_Eagle1 (Thu 19-Jan-12 13:53:37)

Standard User lee111s
(newbie) Thu 19-Jan-12 14:04:06
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
I believe BT Operate install and maintain the mini MSANS in the cabinets although I think the are Openreach property.
Standard User MHC
(legend) Thu 19-Jan-12 14:11:26
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
Openreach is NOT a separate company it is an operating Division of BT. Note what it says - A BT Group Business no where does it infer it is a separate company.

In 2005, BT gave legally binding Undertakings to Ofcom which resulted in the creation of an access services division – Openreach.

The CEO is appointed by the main BT board or one of the board committees and the senior management (organisational Directors) appointed by the CEO of Openreach in agreement with the main BT board committees.





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


M H C


taurus excreta cerebrum vincit
Standard User lee111s
(newbie) Thu 19-Jan-12 14:32:58
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: MHC] [link to this post]
 
It is.
Standard User RobertoS
(sensei) Thu 19-Jan-12 15:07:00
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by lee111s:
It is.
It is what?

We have clearly established it is not a UK registered company. (I previously erroneously said "listed", which implies Stock Exchange listing). For it to be a separate company it would have to be registered at Companies House, at least as a Private Company owned by BT Telecommunications plc. It isn't.

Do you think we can move on? We are all agreed that the usage of "BT" by itself to refer to Openreach is sub-optimal. You will find some or all of the contributors to this post often make a point to non-savvy visitors that this distinction matters.

However your position that the epithet "BT Openreach" is not valid is simply untenable.

This thread has a purpose. You are derailing it. If you wish to continue the argument I suggest you stop screwing up this thread and start one of your own in the appropriate form. It's nothing to do with the Openreach DLM, nor in fact anything to do with "Fibre Broadband".

My broadband basic info/help site - www.robertos.me.uk
My domains,website and mail hosting - Tsohost. Internet connection - IDNet Home Starter Fibre. Live BQM.

"Where talent is a dwarf, self-esteem is a giant." - Jean-Antoine Petit-Senn.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 19-Jan-12 15:55:45
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
Output power is usually a negotiation between MSAN and modem, with the MSAN working to cabinet wide limits, i.e. wont rob power from one line to give another more.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Administrator MrSaffron
(staff) Thu 19-Jan-12 15:56:43
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: lee111s] [link to this post]
 
With Operate working on the behalf of Openreach.

Andrew Ferguson, [email protected]
www.thinkbroadband.com - formerly known as ADSLguide.org.uk
The author of the above post is a thinkbroadband staff member. It may not constitute an official statement on behalf of thinkbroadband.
Standard User asbokid
(regular) Thu 19-Jan-12 17:10:43
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: RobertoS] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by RobertoS:
In reply to a post by lee111s:
The CEO will be appointed by the board of directors.
Of which UK listed company? I doubt if Openreach has a "Board" in the legal sense, though I'm prepared to be proved wrong about that.

From the BT Openreach Frequently Asked Questions (retrieved from [1], with a slightly different version at [2]):
Q17 Does Openreach have its own Board and a Chairman?
No.

Q18 Does Openreach have its own capital budget and autonomy over the investments it makes?
Openreach has an annual operating plan which it agrees with the BT Group CEO. The CEO of Openreach has delegated authority from the BT Group plc Board to authorise capital expenditure up to a certain limit within that annual operating plan.

Q19 Does the chairmanship of the EAB [Equality of Access Board] rotate or is Carl [Symon] the permanent chairman?
The Undertakings require the Chairman of the EAB to be a BT Group plc non-executive director. Carl Symon is the first Chairman but this is not necessarily a permanent appointment. [...]

Q21 Does the Openreach CEO report to the BT CEO? Doesn't that affect his/her neutrality?
The Openreach CEO does report to the BT CEO, but this doesn't affect his/her commitment to treat all Communications Providers equally.

The structure of the BT Group, including the BT Openreach subsidiary, is found in the 2011 Annual Report for the Group. The Report can be retrieved from [3].

On page 60 of the hefty tome is an identity parade of the current BT board and their remuneration packages. Nice work if can get it!

cheers, a

[1] http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/helpandsupport/...
[2] http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/helpandsupport/...
[3] http://www.btplc.com/Sharesandperformance/Annualrepo...
Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(member) Thu 19-Jan-12 17:43:01
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: MrSaffron] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by MrSaffron:
Output power is usually a negotiation between MSAN and modem, with the MSAN working to cabinet wide limits, i.e. wont rob power from one line to give another more.


I just wonder if it is possible that when FTTC was installed (from what I can gather, I was one of the first FTTC users connected to my cabinet), the output Power was higher, allowing faster speeds over my own line length.

It may have taken a month before whatever it was reduced the Output Power?

If my D-side has actually been fixed, to be in at least the same or better condition as it was when FTTC was installed, I can think of no other explanation as to why my higher speeds have not returned.

Currently my modem's GUI reports:-
DS Output Power - 12.1 dBmV
US Output Power - 6.3 dBmV

I don't know what values could be classed as "typical" though

Edited by Bald_Eagle1 (Thu 19-Jan-12 17:44:24)

Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Thu 19-Jan-12 18:54:22
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: Bald_Eagle1] [link to this post]
 
What if 40Mb is just about available inside the FIBRE cabinet, or even at the other end of the patch cable, but it just doesn't have sufficient power to push it a few hundred yards without losing 10Mb to 20Mb on its way?
Who could/would investigate that?

There are PW guys who go check for this kind of stuff. You get a duff port, then it's a lift and shift to fix it. Then they'll come take a look at faulty ports once they have a couple marked as faulty.

Standard User Bald_Eagle1
(member) Thu 19-Jan-12 20:08:04
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
Hi Zarjaz,

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
There are PW guys who go check for this kind of stuff. You get a duff port, then it's a lift and shift to fix it. Then they'll come take a look at faulty ports once they have a couple marked as faulty.

Sorry for showing my ignorance, but who/what is a PW guy?

I'm supposedly somewhere between 800m & 1000m from the cab.

You have mentioned in a previous post that you have seen as high as the full 40Mb, & as low as 16Mb over 1000m.
Assuming the 16Mb connection had no obvious faults, I guess it included a fair bit of aluminium?

If I hadn't been able to actually download at 32Mb - 33Mb for the first month (outside busy periods), I suppose I would be "reasonably" happy with the 26Mb or 27Mb that I can usually achieve nowadays.

In my mind, my 33Mb download speed would suggest an IP profile of around 34Mb, with a sync speed of around 35Mb as there appears to be very little loss from sync speeds for FTTC connections.

34Mb - 35Mb is what the installation engineer told me I should achieve & mentioned that it looked about right for my distance from the cab, although he didn't actually mention the distance at that time.

I was that excited to have gone from 1Mb to 33Mb within the space of a couple of hours that I didn't think to ask him smile
That was back in June, on the 8c profile.

I have experienced a catalogue of faults on my D-side, all supposedly fixed between August & November.

I had a few disconnections one day earlier this week, when the connection finally settled at a sync speed of around 23.2Mb for a couple of days.
My ISP recommended a re-sync yesterday & my sync speed is currently 27.8Mb.

I have not been able to sync at over 30Mb since July, despite the switch to the 17a profile which appears to have given almost everyone else previously syncing below 40Mb quite a decent DS boost, at the expense of a slight US loss.

It's probably a little unreasonable to put you on the spot, but do you have any practical suggestions as to what I can do or say to my ISP to get them to organise yet another engineer's visit to hopefully bottom this low speed/instability issue once & for all?

Having logged my connection's stats for a couple of months, I have provided very, very detailed stats & graphs to my ISP, which actually did prompt the latest engineer's visit in November.
However I do still experience occasional sudden & massive error count bursts (up to 2.5Million CRC/RSUNCorr type errors within the space of a couple of minutes).
Quite often, these coincide with the connection re-syncing (usually at a lower speed).

My ISP now believes my connection is within BT's (or BT OR's) acceptable speed & stability limits & they currently have no plans to organise any further engineer visits.


Paul.

Edited by Bald_Eagle1 (Thu 19-Jan-12 22:02:41)

Standard User burakkucat
(committed) Thu 19-Jan-12 20:12:26
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
There are PW guys who go check for this kind of stuff.
Hi Zarjaz,

As b*cat is a little bit dim today, would you expand the abbreviation PW, please?

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
Standard User Moradin
(learned) Thu 19-Jan-12 21:58:47
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Public Works ? or Private Wire ?

New acronym though..

Who is your local Openreach CE ?

(Community Engineer) !

-----------------------------------------------
December PCP to postcode checker
https://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?snapi...
My Broadband Speed Test

Edited by Moradin (Thu 19-Jan-12 22:15:50)

Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Fri 20-Jan-12 20:32:01
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: burakkucat] [link to this post]
 
Private Wire.

Standard User Zarjaz
(knowledge is power) Fri 20-Jan-12 20:33:42
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Re: Profile Steps


[re: Moradin] [link to this post]
 
New acronym, old role, I was a community engineer 15 years ago.

Standard User burakkucat
(committed) Fri 20-Jan-12 22:06:08
Print Post

Re: Profile Steps


[re: Zarjaz] [link to this post]
 
In reply to a post by Zarjaz:
Private Wire.
Thank you.

-----------------------------------------------------

100% Linux and, previously, Unix.
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