In reply to a post by lee111s:

Openreach own the infrastructure. There's no such thing as "BT being responsible" any more. BT don't own and maintain the lines, Openreach do.

O.K. - Openreach is a still BT group company. Perhaps I could/should have distinguished between BT as a whole & Openreach.

What we do
Our 21,000 Openreach field engineers make around 3.2 million visits every year to install, repair and maintain the network that makes communication possible. Openreach is also committed to delivering a broadband capable network that strives to meet future bandwidth demands.

We work on behalf of the 400+ Communications Providers (CPs) in the UK � providing an identical and equivalent service to all.

Although part of the BT Group, Openreach engineers are dedicated to supporting Openreach. As a result they treat other BT lines of business in exactly the same way as they treat all other CPs in the UK.

Each ISP has equal access to both BT Wholesale and Openreach to deal with broadband issues. While one ISP may seem to have better results in getting things sorted, ultimately, regardless of which ISP you are with it'll be the same Openreach engineers who visit.

I think you are referring to the terms of "Equivalence" that BT/Openreach have to adhere to, in that they are not allowed to give preferential treatment to any ISP, even if it is owned by another part of the BT group of companies.

AAISP did build a reputation at one time for getting things fixed.
From what I have read recently, under these "Equivalence" terms they appear to be less successful.

My ISP is actually owned by BT, but they also have to be treated exactly the same as any other ISP.

The point I was trying to make was that it is very easy to blame an ISP for connection problems. However, if the aged infrastructure (wires etc.) is just not up to it, whoever is responsible for maintaining/repairing the infrastructure is at blame.

In reply to a post by lee111s:

In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:

IMO, connection problems really rest with BT though, as they are resposible for the infrastructure.

Openreach own the infrastructure. There's no such thing as "BT being responsible" any more. BT don't own and maintain the lines, Openreach do.

Each ISP has equal access to both BT Wholesale and Openreach to deal with broadband issues. While one ISP may seem to have better results in getting things sorted, ultimately, regardless of which ISP you are with it'll be the same Openreach engineers who visit.

And who owns Openreach? As you appear not to know the answer, it is BT. So, ultimately BT own the lines and the maintenance is undertaken by their subsidiary - Openreach.

In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:

AAISP did build a reputation at one time for getting things fixed.
From what I have read recently, under these "Equivalence" terms they appear to be less successful.

There is nothing in the equivalence terms to prevent any particular customer of Openreach getting better results from the service by more effective kicking of the mule.

The terms do not specify a level of dissatisfaction to be maintained for all customers.

I think AAISP may be getting some unhelpful repsonses at the moment, but it certainly isn't an OfCom requirement . The unusually extensive AAISP customer line monitoring in itself must help resolve issues.

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by lee111s:

In reply to a post by Bald_Eagle1:

IMO, connection problems really rest with BT though, as they are resposible for the infrastructure.

Openreach own the infrastructure. There's no such thing as "BT being responsible" any more. BT don't own and maintain the lines, Openreach do.

Each ISP has equal access to both BT Wholesale and Openreach to deal with broadband issues. While one ISP may seem to have better results in getting things sorted, ultimately, regardless of which ISP you are with it'll be the same Openreach engineers who visit.

And who owns Openreach? As you appear not to know the answer, it is BT. So, ultimately BT own the lines and the maintenance is undertaken by their subsidiary - Openreach.

No, Openreach own the lines, they are their own business, have their own CEO and they have their own annual budget. Yes they are part of the BT Group but "BT" do not own the lines. It is 100% the responsibility of Openreach to make improvements IF necessary and cost effective.

Edited by deleted (Thu 19-Jan-12 10:25:09)

Wrong.

The network is listed as a BT Group asset.

It does not matter whether OR have responsibility for the lines. BTGroup owns OR and also owns the lines.

but "BT" do not own the lines

Maybe you should define "BT", and explain why the other posters are not entitled to use a different definition of BT. Are you perhaps objecting to a simple semi-typo, in that the original post you object to should have said, (and I agree it should precisely for clarity and to prevent this sort of conversation), "BT Openreach"?

Who appoints the CEO of BT Openreach?

The people you are talking to are fully aware of the setup. They are not in the same category as others you may perhaps legitimately address, who truly are not aware of the separate BT Group companies and the relationships between them.

In real life your assumption of absolute equivalence is untenable.

Any company, Chinese Walled or not, will always take note of the needs and desires of its biggest customers, whilst honestly trying to deliver an equal standard of customer care to all. For example, it is highly possible for BT Openreach to take greater notice of BT Wholesale and BT Retail requirements when designing products than of mine if I set up a 5000-customer ISP. Equivalence cannot and should not stop that.

Edit - typos.

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 19-Jan-12 10:56:08)

The company is not called BT Openreach. It's called Openreach. You would't call virgin media helpdesk if you had a problem with your virgin credit card would you? Same premise.

The CEO will be appointed by the board of directors.

The company is not called BT Openreach. It's called Openreach.

Looks like pantomime time .

Oh no it isn't.

There is no UK listed company Openreach.

If you go to the bottom of this page, it clearly says "© British Telecommunications plc 2011".

In reply to a post by lee111s:

The CEO will be appointed by the board of directors.

Of which UK listed company? I doubt if Openreach has a "Board" in the legal sense, though I'm prepared to be proved wrong about that.

The reason they're not called BT Openreach is to get people away from the "BT" are at fault when it comes to a line not working...typically in the past many many ISP's would tell customers that it's BT's fault and that the customer had to contact BT to get an issue fixed. BT Retail of course can do nothing for you if your broadband is not supplied by them.

I agree that it's Openreach, a BT Group business but it's not BT Openreach. I know this can seem petty but it's how it is.

The board of directors for BT Group will be responsible however for all intents and purposes Openreach are a their own business and are not associated with BT Retail or BT Wholesale when it comes to their copper (and now fibre) network.