BT are a joke *DELETED*

Post deleted by Sadoldman

Edited by Stanman_24 (Fri 01-Nov-13 12:23:31)

Found at least one cabinet enabled. Exchanges can be listed saying they are enabled if 6 or more cabinets are done. I'm sure it's 6. Might be wrong though. Anyway, here's the one I found.

http://i.imgur.com/NwLYWvE.png

Address 85 BROADSTONE RD, BIRMINGHAM, B26 2BY on Exchange STECHFORD is served by Cabinet 31


WBC FTTC Up to 58.9 Up to 20 -- Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 6 -- 4 to 8 Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Annex M Up to 6 Up to 1 4 to 8 Available
ADSL Max Up to 5 -- 3.5 to 7.5 Available
WBC Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Other Offerings
Fibre Multicast -- -- -- Available

nice

you found one however Stechford has been enabled since august

Edited by Stanman_24 (Fri 01-Nov-13 14:59:20)

I know it can be frustrating. The same kind of thing has been done under the Blantyre exchange where only 6 cabinets have been enabled and I know there is like 50-ish cabinets in that area in total. All of the other cabinets are down for end of March next year.

Someone else will no doubt explain that Openreach give a placeholder date of end of March next year but you'll find that the cabinet will be enabled way before then. Sticking in a date thats so far ahead is so that people can't complain. Last year Openreach were trying to put in dates for works to be as accurate as possible, but sometimes the delays slipped by a month. So rather than be wrong, they just put the date as far forward as they could.

In reply to a post by Stanman_24:

nice

you found one however Stechford has been enabled since august

Ok, here's one under SHELDON then.

Address 15 FRODESLEY ROAD, BIRMINGHAM, B26 2SY on Exchange SHELDON is served by Cabinet 15

WBC FTTC Up to 59 Up to 20 -- Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Up to 7.5 -- 5.5 to 12 Available
WBC ADSL 2+ Annex M Up to 7.5 Up to 1 5.5 to 12 Available
ADSL Max Up to 5.5 -- 4 to 8 Available
WBC Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available
Fixed Rate 2 -- -- Available

Edited by deleted (Fri 01-Nov-13 16:14:56)

You're making several mistakes by the looks of it. The where and when website is often out of date, and entering just a post code into the wholesale checker will never give reliable information.

Ues the wholesale checker via the full address option, you can enter just a postcode and then from the next page select a full address.

You should see my area - constantly shifting activation dates (going to be at least four years late now), and something like eight cabinets sitting unactivated for 18 months and counting.

My own cabinet is even worse - they book roadworks every month for the last two years, and have never once done anything

Edited by arfster (Fri 01-Nov-13 15:57:11)

Were 2 years behind with our fibre connection much to the dismay of Zen
With regret' that's bt and open reach and they will stay that way until a law is passed to get them to fall into line

Open reach particularly like to think themselves better then the rest of society as the public can�t even speak to them they like to think of themselves as untouchable
However, like all groups of people who think like that there days are eventually numbered in one way or another

Count yourself lucky. It seems to take months before anything happens round my suburban Birmingham area. There's no roadworks notices and no signs of anything happening. While there may be trunking issues, I can't figure out the delay other than the fact they just don't have enough engineers in the area and are working elsewhere.

They're putting in 200 metres of trunking here, 200 metres of trunking there, yet my cab seems left behind. I can't work out why it's so far taken them four months to do nothing....

Simon

the isp's seem happy with the arrangement also.

eg. the isp can blame openreach for line related issues very conveniantly, saying its out of their control etc.
openreach compensate the isp for no shows etc. whilst this compensation isnt passed onto the end user, since a no show is profitable to the isp why would they want to stamp that kind of thing out?
a line stuck on adsl instead of fttc is cheaper for the isp to provide. so why would they complain about that?

I don't see a problem with realistic dates, but my cab for example has been put back three months, and no ones done anything on it. I could understand if they had been doing stuff and found more problems, some sign something was going on. But delaying just for delaying sake because engineers are elsewhere is so annoying.

I have heard from people for example who say that BT have said there's a planning issue, and three months on, BT still made no applications to their local council. BT blamed works in other areas of town and yet this wouldn't have affected work on that cabinet.

As I've said previously, I do think if they haven't done any work in three months, it must be a major issue. But then if it's a major issue, it's going to take a long time to resolve. The fact they haven't started yet on my issue suggests that they won't be ready for their estimated date. Shouldn't they then revise their estimate date? eg Near me, cab 27, date end of October, roadworks scheduled for Mid November? Shouldn't they have lifted the date earlier instead of waiting for the end of October? If it was a quick issue, why not just get it sorted and done!

You are aware part of the no talking to the public is a key part of the treat all providers equally

Seems strange how sky advertise that 50% of the uk has fibre yet in urban areas such as Birmingham we have been waiting for 3 years now

The target dates usually only indicate the quarter in which the work was originally intended to be delivered. If there is a slip, the target date is not usually updated until the end of the original target period.

You will find that most sub suppliers contracts work in this manner.
Even in the business to business world as well as the consumer world.
Less so in the case of bespoke low volume business stuff I agree where all the sub suppliers sit round a table together and agree the plan.

Essentially it is that subcontractors only deal with and are responsible to their direct customer.
End customers somewhere down the chain are not going to get any response out of the sub-supplier if they raise a query/complaint/demand for action direct with them.
So Openreach will only deal with the ISP's - that is how contracts work.
Anyway they don't have the consumer facing infrastructure/computer systems in place to interface with the public.

I hope you get your FTTC service sorted out.
I'm 5 miles from a city centre, not listed on the local BDUK intervention map, so I can expect a fibre based service maybe sometime between 2017 and 2020 - but only if further money is forthcoming from HMG.

Edited by deleted (Fri 01-Nov-13 19:59:47)

Openreach normally contact customers (end users) before attending to a problem (IME).

The problem comes if you (as an end user) want to contact them.

That would be part of the agreed contact procedure Openreach has with its customer - the ISP. The contract the end user has is with the ISP, who will determine what is being done by OR as they are the ones to whom Openreach send the bill. What the ISP then chooses to bill the end user is up to the ISP.

Similar case I guess if you have a gass leak, you contact your supplier who gets in touch with National Grid.

In reply to a post by Michael_Chare:

The problem comes if you (as an end user) want to contact them.

There should be no need, but given the public interest, I think there would be a good case that like the DSL Checker, which is a great tool for businesses to use to determine if FTTC is available, and even aid in Diagnostics where the data isn't filtered through an ISP, there is a case that OpenReach could make more information and status updates available either on its DSL Checker or maybe through the Where And When website.

Pity your edit did not address the censor avoidance...you must be well aware that sort of language is not permitted.....notwithstanding you anger.

Pity ?

Pity you deleted a thread rather than edit yourself considering the amount of users who posted

In reply to a post by Stanman_24:

rather than edit yourself

Mods don't edit posts- if they're OK they stay, if they're not then they go in the bin.

why are you deflecting this ?

I simply stated it is a pity the thread was closed rather than moderated considering the amount of users who posted

it is self defeating considering forums as a whole are a dying breed unless they offer something other than a medium for moaning & political correctness

you are telling someone who has been using adslguide for over 10 years that his opinion is meaningless and not worthy any more, so why bother ?

Edited by Stanman_24 (Sat 02-Nov-13 13:02:16)

You can always repost the relevant stuff . It isn't hard not to do filter evasion .

If it happens within 12 hours of your post, you can of course restore an acceptable version, including removing the "*DELETED*" from the Subject.

In reply to a post by Stanman_24:

I simply stated it is a pity the thread was closed

It would have been a pity if it had been closed, but you can still post in so it isn't

Nor has the thread been deleted- just the OP.

BT are very very slow to catch up FTTC and often they choose what they want. They won't tell us. BT are useless, selfish and I often hated BT.

Yes, but you've hated everybody at some time or another

In reply to a post by adslmax:

BT are very very slow to catch up FTTC and often they choose what they want. They won't tell us. BT are useless, selfish and I often hated BT.

A private company deciding how to prioritise spending its own money. The horror.

I am skeptical they will be able to meet their May 2014 commercial roll out date. It's taken them one month since Cab 22 was activated, two months since everything else was activated, and three months since the ground work was done on the cabinet... And only just now are there three arrows painted on the ground (presuming for Cabinet 14 on CMSPR) on Robin Hood Lane. 10 metre stretch as well. I suspect they need to lay some new trunking there. Three months for arrows to be painted for a suspected 10 metres of new trunking. Ouch. That really is pretty poor.

I am skeptical they will be able to meet their May 2014 commercial roll out date.

So on the basis of problems with just one cab of tens of thousands you feel able to say that BT will fail to meet their target date. I find that amazing.

Given your insight and understanding of all the various problems that might and can be encountered when installing a network of the size of BT's perhaps you should you consider offering your services to BT as a project manager.

In reply to a post by MCM:

I am skeptical they will be able to meet their May 2014 commercial roll out date.

So on the basis of problems with just one cab of tens of thousands you feel able to say that BT will fail to meet their target date. I find that amazing.

Given your insight and understanding of all the various problems that might and can be encountered when installing a network of the size of BT's perhaps you should you consider offering your services to BT as a project manager.

I find your optimism amazing. It's not difficult to work out the scale of the problems based on real world evidence confirmed by keeping your eyes open.

Half the commercial cabinets in Birmingham haven't even been installed yet or scheduled for install. So even if we account for an optismistic installation of the cabinet for say, start of December (hugely optimistic), it could still take them six months to resolve the issues! Sl yes, I am skeptical.

While I see problems and delays and lack of activity and question, of course, I cannot be absolutely sure of my position. But of course your argument is a straw man because you can't be sure of your position either, unless you work for OpenReach? Why do you attack the opinion of those that differs from your rose tinted spectacles?

There is many posts here who work for BT/.OR or other companys in the know.

In reply to a post by sjdean:

While I see problems and delays and lack of activity and question, of course, I cannot be absolutely sure of my position. But of course your argument is a straw man because you can't be sure of your position either, unless you work for OpenReach? Why do you attack the opinion of those that differs from your rose tinted spectacles?

You are the one with a position. I was simply marvelling at your insight and seemingly total knowledge of what was happening and simply suggesting that with so much to offer that you should consider helping BT.

As for myself I accept that BT have passed by my neighbours and myself, as have VM. All 75 properties have EO lines in central London. BT aren't interested for less than £30K, London has no BDUK funding and the mayor is only interested in SMEs.

In reply to a post by MCM:

You are the one with a position. I was simply marvelling at your insight and seemingly total knowledge of what was happening and simply suggesting that with so much to offer that you should consider helping BT.

Strawman. You called questionned my positioning, do you know better? You too have a position otherwise there would be no opposition. Seriously, if you know better, please tell me, otherwise your conjecture is no different to mine. Actually mines probably a bit more valid based on what I see in my area. Do you live in Birmingham?

In reply to a post by epyon:

There is many posts here who work for BT/.OR or other companys in the know.

And I eagerly await one of those people actually telling me what the hold up is!

In reply to a post by sjdean:

And I eagerly await one of those people actually telling me what the hold up is!

That information is internal Openreach information that you have no right to, and which might be commercially sensitive.

In some cases, Openreach employees with inside knowledge of particular issues will post some information. Considering the numerous posts you have made about your cabinet already, I can only conclude that either nobody is reading who has any inside information for you, or those with information do not wish to be dragged into your hypothesising based little more than your own suppositions.


The answer to when will your cabinet be ready for service remains "when and if Openreach enable it".

In reply to a post by sjdean:

In reply to a post by MCM:

^{You are the one with a position. I was simply marvelling at your insight and seemingly total knowledge of what was happening and simply suggesting that with so much to offer that you should consider helping BT.}

As for myself I accept that BT have passed by my neighbours and myself, as have VM. All 75 properties have EO lines in central London. BT aren't interested for less than £30K, London has no BDUK funding and the mayor is only interested in SMEs.

Do you live in Birmingham?

Sarcasm? Or were you so incensed you didn't read the paragraph after the one you quoted?
_{Edit - punctuation change for clarity.}

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 04-Nov-13 19:37:54)

In reply to a post by sjdean:

Strawman. You called questionned my positioning, do you know better? You too have a position otherwise there would be no opposition. Seriously, if you know better, please tell me, otherwise your conjecture is no different to mine. Actually mines probably a bit more valid based on what I see in my area. Do you live in Birmingham?

You clearly don't have a clue as to what is involved, you also appear to have a comprehension problem either that or you cannot read.

In reply to a post by sjdean:

Strawman. You called questionned my positioning, do you know better? You too have a position otherwise there would be no opposition. Seriously, if you know better, please tell me, otherwise your conjecture is no different to mine. Actually mines probably a bit more valid based on what I see in my area. Do you live in Birmingham?

It is pointless yelling "Strawman" at someone who merely has a different opinion to yours when you have freely admitted that you might be wrong. It's also the wrong term.

For the big picture, it is pointless trying to look at a single cabinet, or a single exchange, or a single area, and attempting to extrapolate nationally. Someone has to be first, and someone has to be last. And the bit in the middle doesn't have to be a homogeneous mix. Looking locally can seriously blinker you - either positively or negatively.

For the big picture, it is best to look at the rate that BT have announced how many premises have been passed... that figure tells you how close they are to the target: 67% of premises by Spring 2014, which amounts to somewhere around the 19 million figure.

In the recent quarterly results, announced for Sept '13, they had reached 17 million premises. The progress has continued at a rate of between 1 and 2 million premises every quarter - it was announced as 16m in June 13, 15m in March 13, 13m in Dec 12, 12m in Sept 12, 11m in June 12, 10m in March 12, 7m in Dec 11, 6m in Sep 11, 5m in June 11, 4m in March 11. Those are figures from the various quarterly results; more exact timings can be gleaned from the press releases (for example, that 3m was hit in Nov '10).

The rates reported a couple of years ago were 80,000 premises per week, or 300 cabinets - and these seem to have been sustained continuously since.

There is plenty of evidence that they can achieve a rate of 1m premises per quarter.

Their original target was to hit 10m in 2012 and the two-thirds figure in 2015. There is plenty of evidence that they are way ahead of those targets.

If they've reached 17 million, they have 2 million left to go in the commercial rollout, and a further 8 months to get there. Sounds plausible? It does to me - and certainly isn't as catastrophically late as you are making out from your local knowledge.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

It is pointless yelling "Strawman" at someone who merely has a different opinion to yours when you have freely admitted that you might be wrong. It's also the wrong term.

I'll snip the rest of your praises for BT which really doesn't go anywhere near to explain why they have installed my cabinet, but seemingly not done any roadworks on it in order to get it activated... nor is my local councillor aware of any planned roadworks, the September date was a fallacy, the December date is growing to be a fallacy which will be reached in 10 days (taken from the context of how BT appear to be activating other cabinets). The works aren't even being done in any seemingly logical order - if they were we'd see some sign they were actually doing something - not necessarily any roadworks, but "something". But there's nothing.

Everything I said right at the beginning is sounding true, which is my cabinet does not sound like a priority.

Your praises of BT do nothing more than to really prove what I believe to be true in that they have their own internal schedules.

In reply to a post by MCM:

In reply to a post by sjdean:

Strawman. You called questionned my positioning, do you know better? You too have a position otherwise there would be no opposition. Seriously, if you know better, please tell me, otherwise your conjecture is no different to mine. Actually mines probably a bit more valid based on what I see in my area. Do you live in Birmingham?

You clearly don't have a clue as to what is involved, you also appear to have a comprehension problem either that or you cannot read.

What's involved? Well, probably not everything down to the nitty gritty. But I would hazard guess that they'll need to develop the backend infrastructure nationally and locally between exchanges to carry the traffic. Then there will be the local roll out of the fibre to the cabs, not to mention the cabs themselves which are subject to planning permission which can take months to sort out. These themselves can be restricted with power issues, conservation issues, wayleaves. The hardware could be faulty too. Trunking can be subject to wayleaves running over what is now private ground. Trunking can also be damaged from roots, other works, cracked plastic pipes or even cracked ceramic ducts that we have around here or even too full to cope with more cabling requiring long sections of road to be dug up to lay new trunking, junction boxes, quite often re-shell PCP cabinets. Each area of work will be carried out by different teams. Around here Carillion seem to be the digging, Cass do the fibre, and Im guessing BT OpenReach will also sometimes step in themselves to help with cabling as I've seen them do. Im guessing that the local network has to be planned to obtain resiliency, junctions and nodes will have to be planned appropriately and any deviations in the route due to damaged trunking, could cause major issues I would hazard a guess. I haven't figured out if a "fibre to the cabinet" is one fibre or multiple fibres, or indeed if one fibre, if that same fibre can feed the next cabinet down the line. Roadworks will be subject to council planning, Section 58 restrictions etc, other road works in the area, I would also think that they may want to time the work to cause least disruption. I would imagine once everythings in place they'll want to monitor the stability before sending anybody live on it. That's quite simplified but seems to be the basic gist of it. Of course what happens behind the doors at BT as to which cabinet gets upgraded first I don't know, but I would also think that service problems take greater priority than installations. That's not to mention problems with weather, man power, scheduling, etc. Teams have to talk to each other, planning, survey, approval, waiting on each team to complete their bit before moving on with the next. Though by and large it seems the ground work once actually confirmed runs quite smoothly and quickly.

But lets go back to the original point. I understand that BT have pencilled a date for May 2014 for their FTTC Commercial Deployment. Hence why many posters say dates have been put to that end point for many cabs.

My point was with the amount of problems and delays I see in my area (the general greater Birmingham suburb), and the fact that there's still many cabinets even to be scheduled for installation and planning permission required, I am skeptical of them achieving everything they wanted to achieve by that point. Even if they installed them all there can still be other issues as detailed above.

I've also pointed out that there are two cabinets in particular, who have had their dates pushed back and pushed back with no noticable activity. Fair enough they both have problems routing the cable from the Exchange (which is odd as Cab 22 which is about 500ft further on from Cab 14) has been activated (though it could be fed from a neighboring Exchange), and if Cab 13 is such a major issue and still in line for December 2013 activation, why have I not seen anything yet? My point there, is that it's either a really simple problem but they can't get anybody to the area - which given the other work scheduled for the exchange area just seems a bit of a flaky excuse, or it's a complicated problem and the dates are going to be pushed back again - not through any problems, but just simply because they haven't done anything. In comparison, there is another cab, 27, went on roadworks.org last month requiring 500m of fibre, disappeared off the checker, but back on a month later with roadworks scheduled for three weeks time with traffic lights in two areas as far as I can see to fix ducts and install a load of new trunking and do the fibre. The roadworks in surrounding areas are drying up and OpenReach pushing wider out, and yet there's still nothing going on with 13 and 14.

To counteract your opening argument, it's not one cab in 10,000... it's well, so far, 4 cabs in 30 that OpenReach seem to have a problem with in my Exchange area alone, the fact that it's taking them four months and counting to sort out - if that is indicative of the what's happening nationally as other posters talk about themselves, well, your argument is flawed. It may be once the cabs are installed they can then come back and sort out the ones with the problems. But it seems a bit flimsy on behalf of OpenReach to give their arbitrary date, do nothing, then push it back another three months - especially when they can work religiously on these ten cabinets or those ten cabinets or come back and fix two others, all the while, still doing nothing to yours. Im not even talking roadworks yet, Im talking chalk lines on the road about where to dig, or even roadworks.org notices, notices from the council, even some disturbed manhole covers or seeing an OpenReach van in the area.

Of course you seem to disagree with me, but you claim you don't have a position. To disagree with me, means that your position is the opposite of mine, in that you think they will succeed and meet their deadline and that OpenReach can do whatever they like - they're a big company with a big network after all.

Your attitude does sound very positive. But unless you work for OpenReach and know some inside information that I don't, then all of your positive conjecture is no more accurate than mine. But what I did say was that my conjecture, my anecdotal evidence, my knowledge and understanding of my area, Birmingham, is a lot more valid than your conjecture about Birmingham.

There's no need to tell me that because I know my area and can see what is happening that, sarcastically, I should be some kind of project planner for BT.

But at the end of the day, I don't know, I can't be sure. Im quite confident in my assesment, but I don't work for BT. But also, you don't know. You don't work for BT. Do you?

I do feel I've been quite clear on this and amazed you have to call into question my literacy skills and call me ignorant which is quite frankly a little rude. Ignorant maybe, but Im no more ignorant than you - unless you have work for OpenReach?

David thinks it could be commercially sensitive to give out the kind of information NGA is giving out (plus a little bit more) about estimates and problems. I'd like to see a little more details. If there were some facts, there would be no hypothesising. If BT said "there are major problems with tree roots requiring X metres of trunking and because it is a narrow road this needs a site survey due to underground water gas and electricity. This will take us X months to collect plans and survey..." I'd believe them. If however say for Cab 14 where I think Ribble said "should be live soon" (back in October) and the indication is that it is a small one metre trunking issue but it takes them four months to solve, I'd be a little less convinced.

I'm not even going to bother reading that post.

Why should your cabinet have priority? And yes of course BT have their own internal schedule.

They work in strange ways, and there is very little, if anything we can do about it.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

I'm not even going to bother reading that post.

Hehe. Don't blame you. Im getting tired of getting misquoted and misinterpreted myself.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Why should your cabinet have priority? And yes of course BT have their own internal schedule.

But I never said it should be, just that it isn't for BT, or at least, it's a low priority. I just want my cabinet, to be dealt with, in order in line with other cabinets, and not pushed back to the queue while they work on everything else. It's just very frustrating to see things being pushed back and no work being undertaken. It's bewildering to see the disparity in cabinet activations where they can work their socks off on those few and others left out.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

They work in strange ways, and there is very little, if anything we can do about it.

Yes, and that is the message I fully agree with. BT have their own ways and schedules, but that's a fairer thing to say to someone who is asking why their cabinet has been delayed rather than churning out the old "it's a trunking issue". It will be enabled when it's enabled.

In reply to a post by sjdean:

the cabs themselves which are subject to planning permission which can take months to sort out

A substantial proportion of cabinets never needed planning permission. The proportion that need planning permission was further reduced by a change in the law that came into force from 27 June 2013, as recently discussed in this forum.

In reply to a post by sjdean:

re-shell PCP cabinets

Various factors determine the need to re-shell. Many cabinets have no need of being reshelled.

In reply to a post by sjdean:

I haven't figured out if a "fibre to the cabinet" is one fibre or multiple fibres, or indeed if one fibre, if that same fibre can feed the next cabinet down the line.

Multiple fibres are brought into the cabinet, as can be seen in MrSaffron's internal picture of one of the Cornish cabinets. The fibres enter through the leftmost black tube in the right hand bay, before going into the trays under the transparent cover with the black felt tip writing on. The fibres are fused to the yellow pigtails, with the splice in its heatshrink sleeve being clipped into the trays and some of the spare fibre length being wound into the tray to strain relieve the splice and leave enough length for future resplicing if a repair is needed.

The yellow pigtails make their way through the black grommet into the right hand side of the cabinet, where you see them again in translucent spiral wrap hanging down the left hand side of the DSLAM. It appears that only a single fibre is plugged in to the DSLAM, with the remainder of the simplex LC connectors (the blue parts on the end) hanging down. Indeed, there's only one optical transceiver fitted in the DSLAM - the remaining SFP ports are all blanked off.

MrSaffron may know more about that cabinet, but I presume that these fibres are a mixture of spares and future diverse routes. You can't say anything about the fibre network topology from the number of tubes, as you don't know what is fused to what in the aggregation node.

In reply to a post by sjdean:

But lets go back to the original point. I understand that BT have pencilled a date for May 2014 for their FTTC Commercial Deployment. Hence why many posters say dates have been put to that end point for many cabs.

As you have been told several times, the May 2014 date is because of complaints to the Advertising Standards Authority from people who treated a 'best estimate' date as a promise of service availability. The only response possible was to obscure much of the previous detail with very pessimistic dates that people couldn't complain about.

In reply to a post by sjdean:

4 cabs in 30 that OpenReach seem to have a problem with in my Exchange area alone

Yet again, you engage in lengthy pontification based on your understanding of the local situation. 4 cabinets are a tiny proportion of the number of cabinets that Openreach enable every quarter, and the issues local to those cabinets are not necessarily representative of those faced over a wider area. This is a massive project being played out on a national scale, in which the installation issues facing these four cabinets are a very minor part.

In reply to a post by sjdean:

David thinks it could be commercially sensitive to give out the kind of information NGA is giving out (plus a little bit more) about estimates and problems. I'd like to see a little more details. If there were some facts, there would be no hypothesising.

You can keep hypothesising here as long as you like - it's not going to get you any more information.

The potential commercial sensitivity is obvious. If niche providers such as fixed wireless operators can discover where Openreach are facing roll-out challenges, they could target their efforts toward those areas. There may also be sensitivities around the BDUK process - though it's pretty much guaranteed now that Openreach will win every BDUK contract, it's not in Openreach's interests to reveal any more than they have to.


The bigger issue is that no company is in the habit of giving out internal operational information, especially when people might try to use that information against them. The workload for Openreach in answering all the questions from the public about the issues being faced in particular areas and the proposals to resolve them would be immense. Would you rather operational staff were getting on with rolling out the network or answering questions from the public?

What good would it do having this information anyway, beyond satisfying your curiosity whilst you wait? As live operational information, the future timeline to deploy delayed cabinets will change from week to week as other work overruns or finishes early. You want to keep resources utilised, not keep moving them around to finish off odd jobs. Inevitably, this means things finish up out of order from the original sequence.


You've posted elsewhere about waiting your turn and wondering whether you've been shoved to the back of the queue. Like it or not, the work does not necessarily remain in the original order - cabinets are slipped down the programme when they hit problems that can't be resolved in the available contingency time.

You were given an estimate, and now you feel aggrieved that Openreach missed it. This is precisely the reason why the most common answer to the target date for any commercial cabinet now is the projected end of the commercial roll-out.

I can't see anywhere in this thread, on a quick scan, where [email protected] has been mentioned. That is where you may get a reasonably detailed answer about your cabinet.

Though the response time from it now seems to be rather longer than the original 2-3 weeks. Too many queries I expect.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 06-Nov-13 22:56:02)

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by sjdean:

the cabs themselves which are subject to planning permission which can take months to sort out

A substantial proportion of cabinets never needed planning permission. The proportion that need planning permission was further reduced by a change in the law that came into force from 27 June 2013, as recently discussed in this forum.

In reply to a post by sjdean:

re-shell PCP cabinets

Various factors determine the need to re-shell. Many cabinets have no need of being reshelled.

I don't know why you're being difficult for in countering these points. The fact of the matter is, these things can and do happen, sometimes planning permission is required, and sometimes cabs need to be reshelled, many of the cabs in my area have been reshelled. What's your point? That some don't need this? Well that's good, but it doesn't invalidate what I said apart from adding useless chatter.

snip

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by sjdean:

But lets go back to the original point. I understand that BT have pencilled a date for May 2014 for their FTTC Commercial Deployment. Hence why many posters say dates have been put to that end point for many cabs.

As you have been told several times, the May 2014 date

Why are you being so aggressive for? I know that several cabs have had their date set to May 2014 as part of the commercial roll out, I've not complained about that aspect, I merely stated a fact... But you seem to be telling me that I've been told what I've said.... You're not making any sense.

Your attitude is insufferable.

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by sjdean:

4 cabs in 30 that OpenReach seem to have a problem with in my Exchange area alone

Yet again, you engage in lengthy pontification based on your understanding of the local situation. 4 cabinets are a tiny proportion of the number of cabinets that Openreach enable every quarter, and the issues local to those cabinets are not necessarily representative of those faced over a wider area. This is a massive project being played out on a national scale, in which the installation issues facing these four cabinets are a very minor part.

I love the defence of a crabby service - it's a massive project. Just because it's massive doesn't mean it couldn't be managed better, and just because people can see flaws in the management, doesn't mean you should volunteer them to do the job! It's time for providers to provide a better service.

I happen to be a genealogist, as well as work in tech support. And Im a programmer. My brain is programmed to see patterns. I cannot believe you can truly sit there with a straight face and think you cannot extrapolate a wider picture of issues based on a smaller subset of data and actually sit there and criticise me for doing so. If the internet wasn't littered with people with similar problems of delays and pontification by BT, you'd have a point.

The original point, which you've snipped to win the argument, is that the PP claimed that I found the 1 cabinet in 10,000 with a problem. No Im sorry, you can extrapolate 4 cabinets in 30 on CMSPR exchange to a larger area. We can open that to the wider Birmingham area and see similar issues and read about other peoples problems all across the internet and see delays and issues everywhere.

You talk rubbish.

No doubt you'll snip and twist and argue against the one point I never made to try and win the argument.

In reply to a post by David_W:

In reply to a post by sjdean:

David thinks it could be commercially sensitive to give out the kind of information NGA is giving out (plus a little bit more) about estimates and problems. I'd like to see a little more details. If there were some facts, there would be no hypothesising.

You can keep hypothesising here as long as you like - it's not going to get you any more information.

The potential commercial sensitivity is obvious. If niche providers such as fixed wireless operators can discover where Openreach are facing roll-out challenges, they could target their efforts toward those areas.

Surely that would be anti-competitive - what about the OpenReach SuperFast checker, DSL Checker and even NGA themselves - ok may not be strictly public, but it still gives out information.

The bigger issue is that no company is in the habit of giving out internal operational information, especially when people might try to use that information against them. The workload for Openreach in answering all the questions from the public about the issues being faced in particular areas and the proposals to resolve them would be immense. Would you rather operational staff were getting on with rolling out the network or answering questions from the public?


False argument. NGA already answer questions from the public from their email address. If a subset of that information was put on the DSL Checker it would cut those queries and save time.

In reply to a post by David_W:

What good would it do having this information anyway, beyond satisfying your curiosity whilst you wait? As live operational information, the future timeline to deploy delayed cabinets will change from week to week as other work overruns or finishes early. You want to keep resources utilised, not keep moving them around to finish off odd jobs.

Well that's what they seem be doing at the moment in returning to finish off the jobs they missed. Except for the cab Im connected to.

In reply to a post by David_W:

You've posted elsewhere about waiting your turn and wondering whether you've been shoved to the back of the queue. Like it or not, the work does not necessarily remain in the original order - cabinets are slipped down the programme when they hit problems that can't be resolved in the available contingency time.

But they could still deal with issues in order couldn't they...

In reply to a post by David_W:

You were given an estimate, and now you feel aggrieved that Openreach missed it. This is precisely the reason why the most common answer to the target date for any commercial cabinet now is the projected end of the commercial roll-out.

That's a false statement too, I don't feel aggrieved OpenReach missed it - if there are problems, there are problems - but Im annoyed that they don't seem to be working on this one but seem to be doing every other job in the area. And not all cabinets have had their dates set to May 2014 - you've come out with that rubbish before. Yes, several cabs do say May 2014, but there's a good number that don't including 5 of 30 in my area.

Your gratitude for the answer to your question about the number of fibres entering the cabinet is noted.

Whilst I was answering that question, it took few extra words to add some further information about reshells and planning permission. You added rather more words to this thread via your threadcopping.


If you are so aggrieved by Openreach's scheduling practices and progress in your area, I suggest you follow Bob's advice and e-mail them to tell them. Several people have told you why sticking to the proposed order isn't always possible, so I expect your views will change nothing, but unless you address them directly to Openreach, how can anything change?

People are not defending BT from what I see but are explaining there could be many things in the background that are affecting certain areas more than others. Thinking problems should be dealt with in order is naive for a programmer - often you have to deal with the quick wins whilst waiting for other things to happen to deal with the harder stuff - that is life.

Also, extrapolating upwards is fine for stats but has to be done very carefully. If you were to take 10 square miles in tornado alley and count the number of tornados in a year you might then try to extrapolate that to the whole of the planet - and clearly that would be wildly wrong - but if the only information you have is that area then you would think you are dead right (and error that seems to be made over and over again by climate theorists - but then the good ones know the error exists and should caveat it).

Will BT complete by May 2014? Probably not. Will they change the goal posts or carefully craft their press release so that it seems they completed? Probably. Will their be people that were on the list for FTTC and don't get it because of issues and BT changing priorities? Almost certainly. Will BT be close enough to their target to consider it a win and a good news story? I would say yes.

Thanks for the effort in gathering/ reporting the figures.

In reply to a post by sjdean:

I'll snip the rest of your praises for BT which really doesn't go anywhere near to explain why they have installed my cabinet, but seemingly not done any roadworks on it in order to get it activated...

I didn't find the other post to be particularly "praising" BT but simply presenting some figures which appear to contradict your view (I'll take it for granted, for now, that the figures are correct, not having checked them, but have not considered there much benefit in anyone presenting the wrong data, when it can be openly discussed and if wrong, proven to be so).

In my area, the availability check on 'superfast-openreach.co.uk' was saying the service was due to go live in September 2012, and I had seen a new cabinet for the fibre kit installed in July/August. Then, at the end of September, when I had just cancelled a contract with Three on the basis I'd be able to get fibre, the date slipped to December, then March 2013, then June 2013. (Presumably because of the floods last year, which caused delays in many regions.)

I was annoyed, yes, and rather impatient (esp when there were a number of deals offering discounts, which I could not get), but that's something to just "suck up". As for any "logical order", no I cannot begin to guess at how the order is chosen, but perhaps worth considering availability of resources (ie engineering staff) and seems little point in speculating too much.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Will BT complete by May 2014? Probably not. Will they change the goal posts or carefully craft their press release so that it seems they completed?

Yeah, but as soon as I say that, someone complains that I don't know what Im talking about!

I think the difference is I state they may not meet it whereas you state they will not meet it based on experience of a small area.

So, probability is they won't get everything we think they should. But, they may meet enough to have a good news story (ie some cabs may be dropped in favour of others - this is replanning and from the outside may look like them failing but actually it still potentially meets their targets).

In reply to a post by ian72:

I think the difference is I state they may not meet it whereas you state they will not meet it based on experience of a small area.

But that's not true either.

I said

I am skeptical they will be able to meet their May 2014 commercial roll out date.

To which the reply (from someone else) was:

So on the basis of problems with just one cab of tens of thousands you feel able to say that BT will fail to meet their target date. I find that amazing.

I did say I couldn't be sure of my position, but neither can the other person in their wide eyed optimism, and besides which, it's not one cabinet in tens of thousands, there's four in my exchange area alone so far, then there's anecdotal evidence from a whole plethora of other people around the country.

Think Im being rather fair in all honesty. Now it might be once OpenReach have completed the majority of work, the engineers will be free to resolve the issues. Still extremely frustrating that in an exchange area, some cabinets can be fixed in two weeks, others two months, and others taking at least 4 months for seemingly no other reason than, BT just not assigning any resources. Still, nothing I can do about it about from whinge and complain that all things aren't equal.

Isn't it time all your posts are not deleted just cuz the OP was?

In reply to a post by sjdean:

I did say I couldn't be sure of my position, but neither can the other person in their wide eyed optimism, and besides which, it's not one cabinet in tens of thousands, there's four in my exchange area alone so far, then there's anecdotal evidence from a whole plethora of other people around the country.

As Ian said in an earlier post:

In reply to a post by ian72:

Thinking problems should be dealt with in order is naive for a programmer - often you have to deal with the quick wins whilst waiting for other things to happen to deal with the harder stuff - that is life.

I've said broadly the same to you previously, as have others.


You believe that Openreach should keep things in order, and that the problems (as you understand them, which may not be the full and complete picture) with the cabinets in your locality are representative of the issues faced across the deployment. The reality is that, as several posters have told you, Openreach reschedule work in ways that move things out of the original order when problems are found, whilst the problems faced in each area are dependent on purely local factors to at least some extent.

No matter how many times you reassert your views on these points in these forums, it will not change anything. If every member of these forums voted that Openreach should keep the FTTC roll-out in the declared order even when problems are found, Openreach wouldn't have to take any notice.


You appear to have misunderstood my motives when I've disagreed with you. I hope your cabinet is rolled out as quickly as possible and that you are able to take advantage of the benefits of FTTC soon - I never like seeing anyone subject to delays. However, repeatedly stating a position that is demonstrably not true cannot help anybody.

As your cabinet appears to be in the commercial roll-out, you have no contractual or regulatory leverage over Openreach. The only thing you can do is complain to Openreach about the delays and their scheduling policies, but this is unlikely to change anything.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Isn't it time all your posts are not deleted just cuz the OP was?

I think the majority don't realise they can change the subject line every time they post if they wish.

I often find it very confusing when people reply to a "Deleted" post and leave that there.

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Isn't it time all your posts are not deleted just cuz the OP was?

Isn't it time that the forum software were upgraded so that a post could be deleted without it messing up the subject line, or moderators able to edit posts?

In reply to a post by Ignitionnet:

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Isn't it time all your posts are not deleted just cuz the OP was?

Isn't it time that the forum software were upgraded so that a post could be deleted without it messing up the subject line, or moderators able to edit posts?

I totally agree, the forum software is long overdue an update.

In reply to a post by sjdean:

In reply to a post by ian72:

I think the difference is I state they may not meet it whereas you state they will not meet it based on experience of a small area.

But that's not true either.

I said

I am skeptical they will be able to meet their May 2014 commercial roll out date.

Sorry, lost track slightly in the thread.

Been discussed in TTTS a few times. Personally I find this forum to be one of the best experiences of any - and if/when they do replace it I hope that they don't end up with something that is actually much worse.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Sorry, lost track slightly in the thread.

Don't worry. I forget half of what I write myself too!