The Openreach modem...

After my Netgear N300 router died (AFTER ONLY 3 WEEKS!) and I plugged in the replacement N600 router, I considered: What if the Openreach modem died instead? How do I replace it? More to the point, can I buy a spare? Or can I buy a combined unit and 'retire' the Openreach kit and Netgear N600? Sorry if I'm posting in the wrong place.

TA!

Plenty on Ebay...

Isp should arrange replacement if it dies but a replacement from ebay bought in advance will avoid downtime.

If the modem dies, raise the fault with your CP, they will arrange it's replacement via Openreach.

Rumour has it spares are available on Ebay

There are some combined modem routers out there, the main three ISP's now provide one. Others can be bought, I daresay some one will chip in with the options shortly.

I am very clever! Because I ordered Openreach Modem (with unlocked) from ebay and hide it away then openreach come to my house last February to install FTTC and he bring openreach modem (ECI) with him. When he disappear, I swap it over the ebay one I brought and keep ECI modem in cupboard just in case if the modem has died.

Edited by adslmax (Tue 12-Aug-14 22:19:17)

Thanks, a spare doesn't need any information to work? I can just plug it in and it's OK?

I know, google is my friend!

Thanks, a spare doesn't need any information to work? I can just plug it in and it's OK?

That's correct.

As Zarjaz says, unless someone has screwed it up - which of course applies to anything bought off eBay.

Just make sure it works for a few days while you can return it. Then put it away as a spare, or leave your existing one spare.

Ta!

that is illegal.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

that is illegal.

What is illegal and would you care to point me towards the statute or relevant documents...

Don't try and tell people things are against the law without context and evidence... I suspect your not a lawyer, nor a telco/isp employee.

Edited by IamQ (Wed 13-Aug-14 18:49:17)

Uh?
Are you suggesting stolen goods, or something else ?

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

that is illegal.

Perhaps you'd better lock me up, I bought a few off Ebay, and kept the one's supplied by BT.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

that is illegal.

Buying Openreach Modem off ebay isn't illegal. When the customer finished contract with FTTC and if no longer use FTTC, then he/she allow to selling openreach modem via ebay whatever they wish!

There is no LAW on it! Plus, I never heard of Openreach Engineer come and pick up the modem after finished the contract!

Edited by adslmax (Wed 13-Aug-14 21:01:38)

You may be subject to a fine for hiding the modem.

In reply to a post by Zadeks:

You may be subject to a fine for hiding the modem.

That's a load of rubbish. That's part of FTTC installation and the fee already taken by BTw. So, I have my own rights to hide the openreach modem from ebay as I pay for this! And this got nothing to do with BT Openreach.

Edited by adslmax (Wed 13-Aug-14 21:12:54)

And openly on sale at the BT Shop-

http://www.shop.bt.com/products/bt-home-hub-5-90RY.html

From a legal point of view:

The BTOR HG or ECI standalone modem is the property of BTOR - not you and not the ISP.
Selling it is akin to selling stolen goods and those buying BT branded HG612 or the ECI's modems are in effect receiving stolen goods.

The FTTC network demarcation point is the lan side of the modem - so the modem in its entirety is part of the network you are not allowed to interfere with (or sell!).
From a legal/contractual point of view it is exactly as per a gas meter/gas pressure regulation device or electric meter/main fuse - not for you to touch in any manner.

The practice I appreciate may be different!

The HH5 combined router/modem is a totally different matter..................

That is the Home Hub 5. People are talking about the white Openreach branded VDSL2 modems

Do you have any evidence for this. It's clearly unsupported by the facts.

In reply to a post by zom22:

The FTTC network demarcation point is the lan side of the modem - so the modem in its entirety is part of the network you are not allowed to interfere with (or sell!).

It can't be, it has a nice end user removable connector on the wall socket that it connects to. Also ISPs are now supplying no engineer to fit the service. The FTTC (VDSL) network demarcation is the same as ADSL - the NTE5.

The fact that Openreach loan a box is a financial issue, similar to Virgin Media loaning you a box to receive the "services" under contract. Should you terminate the contract they are at right to recover the box or payment thereof. None of this is "illegal" as its not broken a law, its just contractual terms. (That I suspect the individual probably hasn't signed or agreed to, as its in the ISP to Openreach agreement).

Believe me! Openreach will never asked to return it back! As for Virgin Media they did ASK me to return Superhub 2 which I did!

When my BT/OR Modem died shortly after installation, the Engineer took the dud away so they can send it back for a Warranty Replacement.

Clearly, BT/OR think it's theirs (rightly or wrongly).

Sorry to 'muddy the water' on the issue...

Rather than guess, I asked Openreach. They told me the modem is issued to the ISP and it's up to the ISP what happens to it. The ISP told me it's mine after the initial contract period.

Sorry to spoil the guessing game.

In reply to a post by G3UZF:

When my BT/OR Modem died shortly after installation, the Engineer took the dud away so they can send it back for a Warranty Replacement.

Clearly, BT/OR think it's theirs (rightly or wrongly).

Sorry to 'muddy the water' on the issue...

More likely they removed the dud one to dispose of it in an approved manner, rather than the user send it to landfill. AIUI all electrical item suppliers these days must offer a free disposal service. Link.

Thanks for the clarification.

A handy link for FTTC stuff.

http://br0kent3l3ph0n3.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/b...

In reply to a post by zom22:

The FTTC network demarcation point is the lan side of the modem - so the modem in its entirety is part of the network you are not allowed to interfere with (or sell!).

Care to share the source of this information? It's my understanding that the master socket is the demarcation point, as it is with legacy broadband and phone...

In reply to a post by zom22:

From a legal/contractual point of view it is exactly as per a gas meter/gas pressure regulation device or electric meter/main fuse - not for you to touch in any manner.

There is no law surrounding this area and as such I suspect it's entirely different compared to regulations surrounding gas and electricity. Happy to be proven wrong though, should you be able to supply the source of the information.

Paul

Edited by deleted (Thu 14-Aug-14 10:59:59)

Also if dud under warranty, Openreach may get money back if x% of units fail in first Y months.

In reply to a post by systemx:

A handy link for FTTC stuff.

http://br0kent3l3ph0n3.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/b...

Excellent document, thanks.

It clearly states that the NTE5 (master socket) is the OR demarcation point (page 25 bottom most paragraph).

Paul

Edited by deleted (Thu 14-Aug-14 11:33:22)

In reply to a post by youngsyp:

It clearly states that the NTE5 (master socket) is the OR demarcation point (page 25 bottom most paragraph).

Yes, I know for sure I saw a document once that said differently (that the demarcation point was the modem's Ethernet socket), but I didn't keep a link to it and it probably pre-dated that one�

Up to date is better

In reply to a post by billford:

In reply to a post by youngsyp:

It clearly states that the NTE5 (master socket) is the OR demarcation point (page 25 bottom most paragraph).

Yes, I know for sure I saw a document once that said differently (that the demarcation point was the modem's Ethernet socket), but I didn't keep a link to it and it probably pre-dated that one�

Up to date is better

As to ownership of the modem, page 31 para 7.6 "Cease of WBC FTTC" indicates that the active NTE (modem) should be returned to Openreach.

Obviously my information is more up to date than an old confidential document. There is a reason these documents are confidential

Could the document you saw have been for FTTP? I could see the LAN port being the demarcation there as BT will not allow people to plug in their own devices to the fibre itself.

In reply to a post by ian72:

BT will not allow people to plug in their own devices to the fibre itself.

Do you have any evidence to back up that statement?

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

Obviously my information is more up to date than an old confidential document. There is a reason these documents are confidential

As we move inexorably towards a wires only install, who owns the active NTE becomes irrelevant , I agree.

If you could post more up to date info please do.

I'm pretty sure it was FTTC, I don't think domestic FTTP was much more than a gleam in somebody's eye at the time

But even if my memory is 100% accurate (by no means guaranteed ), BT are quite entitled to change their mind. Using the Ethernet port as the demarcation point may have made sense on paper but it's unenforceable in practice, the change may have been simply an acknowledgement of reality.

I can't find any direct evidence but given that BT provide the ONT (ie the equivalent of the modem) for all new provides and require (or at least according to some trial information from BT and Plusnet) it to be screwed to the wall to avoid damage to the fibre then I would be surprised if they currently allow end user fibre ONTs to be used in place of it.

For business leased lines BT tend to provide the terminating equipment rather than present a direct fibre to the user.

I also suspect BT would do it this way as it gives them control over the termination to monitor the fibre which they may not be able to do with user provided equipment.

The user can of course then provide their own Ethernet router to connect to the ONT.

EDIT : Found the BT SIN for FTTP - section 3.4 states:

The ONT is owned by Openreach and represents the demarcation of the WBC FTTP product within the premise and is the point into which the CP will need to connect their own Customer Premises Equipment (CPE).

Edited by ian72 (Thu 14-Aug-14 12:53:19)

In reply to a post by ian72:

EDIT : Found the BT SIN for FTTP - section 3.4 states:

The ONT is owned by Openreach and represents the demarcation of the WBC FTTP product within the premise and is the point into which the CP will need to connect their own Customer Premises Equipment (CPE).

Thanks

GEA-FTTC and GEA-FTTP specification docs have existed for the same length of time.

No moving towards, wires only is here with Sky etc providing their own hardware for FTTC.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

No moving towards, wires only is here with Sky etc providing their own hardware for FTTC.

Perhaps I should have said "as we move to wires only for all FTTC products from all ISPs

Edited by deleted (Thu 14-Aug-14 13:35:06)

In reply to a post by systemx:

[As to ownership of the modem, page 31 para 7.6 "Cease of WBC FTTC" indicates that the active NTE (modem) should be returned to Openreach.
[/quote]And perhaps you should have read my reply more closely. I was rebutting your comment about the modem being the BT demarcation point, not whether the modem should be returned post cessation of FTTC service...

Paul

In reply to a post by systemx:

A handy link for FTTC stuff.

http://br0kent3l3ph0n3.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/b...

That was old one. For 40/2 & 40/10.

The new one is 80/20 here: https://www.btwholesale.com/shared/document/Products...

BT again .

Premise.
Premises.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

BT again .

Premise.
Premises.

lol u tell them!

It's correct in the Openreach one - 506. The other one 509 quotes is 477, saying 509 is until 477 and 506 are updated by Openreach. 506 is still Feb 2013 and 477 has vanished .

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

BT again .

Premise.
Premises.

I just provided the quote guv. Still, could be worse, I could loose the will to live or get a screw lose...

Edited by ian72 (Thu 14-Aug-14 16:22:12)

I did say it was BT .

How about this, also from SIN 509. "The WBC FTTP product will consume and use Openreaches Generic Ethernet Access over FTTP (GEA FTTP) product".

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

How about this, also from SIN 509. "The WBC FTTP product will consume and use Openreaches Generic Ethernet Access over FTTP (GEA FTTP) product".

I think Openreaches is, strictly speaking, correct although the dictionaries would probably call it archaic.

In the more usual spelling of Openreach's the possessive apostrophe represents the omitted e.

I'm not so sure about consume� a byte at time, presumably

Edited by billford (Thu 14-Aug-14 19:03:42)