Exchange only line?

Hi Guys,

When using the BT DSL checker, if it says "Address on Exchange" but it doesn't mention "is served by cabinet x" does this mean that the chances are I'm on an exchange only line?

I appreciate you probably get a ton of these questions, thank you in advance

Post code comparisons used are AB21 0JY and AB21 0XP

Yep, you are on an EO line. Join this exclusive club.

Don't lose hope, I was an Exchange Only line (no cabinet) till 2 weeks ago and now I can get FTTC. Work is being done all over the country on updating EO lines so keep trying to find out if and when your line will be brought up to FTTC standard.

Good Luck.

Caley.

I have almost lost all hope but your post is encouraging.

How did they get you onto FTTC Caley ? Were you close to the exchange?

I have a double dunt , miles away from exchange and EO

Usual method is add a phone cabinet and a fibre twin and re-arrange lines to go via the new cabinet and then you can order FTTC.

Other options

0. Not seen a user, but believe have seen evidence of some limited copper rearrangement to move the odd lone line onto a cabinet that is very close as part of the projects.
1. Onesie cabinet that cabinets the two cabs into one
2. FTTP used a lot in Cornwall and other projects are using it but to a lesser extent
3. Moving forward for small clusters FTTrN, i.e. small pole mounted VDSL2 device
4. Moving further forward maybe G.FAST

All depends on the cost and the target set by the project and whether there are others who can get an improvement for less outlay.

Work is being done all over the country on updating EO lines

Try telling that to those in London with EO lines. No BDUK money in London to fund the necessary network rearrangement.

I am roughly about 800m from the exchange. OR put up a large cabinet with a smaller cabinet (11) nearby. They took ages (7 months) to get it all together and were back and forth to the exchange constantly but couple of weeks ago there it was cabinet 11. I haven't signed up to fibre yet because I can't make up my mind who to go with and I have a real good speed and deal with Xilo so I'm just hanging around trying to decide which way to jump. I want a monthly contract if I can get it. So don't you give up on getting fibre even if OT say you'll not be getting it. I inquired a while ago to OR and they said that there were no plans to do EO lines at my exchange and here I am with fibre. I contacted our local development people HIE and they were so helpful I even got an email from them last week informing me that my line could now get FTTC and offering help if needs be. Phone, email or write to anyone who might be able to tell you anything. Listen to any advice you get on these forums as there are many many knowledgeable and helpful people here.

Caley

Shout a bit louder and longer with many voices and somebody might hear you. I'm a great believer in you don't get if you don't ask but ask louder than anyone else. Many voices make FTTC possible, the more voices the more chance of it being fruitful.

Caley.

In reply to a post by caley:

Shout a bit louder and longer with many voices and somebody might hear you. I'm a great believer in you don't get if you don't ask but ask louder than anyone else. Many voices make FTTC possible, the more voices the more chance of it being fruitful.

I and others have down a fair bit of shouting thank you very much. BT want £30K, the mayor's not interested and Lambeth aren't interested because our cluster of 75 lines isn't state owned affordable housing. The one bright star is Hyperoptic who've been supportive from the start, their first proposal was too expensive, although less than BT's, but they seem to have now come up with a proposal which is both affordable and would meet our various needs. It may just be that the private sector will come to our aid.

Sorry about the problems you're having. We had newspaper articles here about EO lines being ignored and EO line owners shouting and it seems to have done some good in this area. It all boils down to money though. BT needs to be paid for every screw it turns and they don't care where the money comes from as long as it's going to them. Don't give up it might just pay off if you shout long enough.
Best of luck.

Caley.

I live in Devon and thankfully the connecting Devon and Somerset partnership are sorting out the EO lines. Torrington and Holsworthy have both had new cabs and fibre cabs installed outside the exchange.

My exchange went live earlier on in the year but I too am EO line, fingers crossed it will get rearrange to a new cab soon!

MCM as you are aware there is an option for a communty to do a gap funded infill communth scheme with openreach for EO clustlers on the NEW PCP / DSLAM -- see openrreach FAQ not on a plan - (a number of communities already doing that or investigating that - if can get a community around 150 - 200 say i block fats . apatmets can be relatively easly done done (asuming the gap can be raised) -openreach have secured both smaller and larger communities in that was Average lead time is aorund 9 months ((from contract sigature with openreach)

Edited by deleted (Sat 04-Oct-14 15:04:08)

In reply to a post by MCM:

In reply to a post by caley:

Shout a bit louder and longer with many voices and somebody might hear you. I'm a great believer in you don't get if you don't ask but ask louder than anyone else. Many voices make FTTC possible, the more voices the more chance of it being fruitful.

I and others have down a fair bit of shouting thank you very much. BT want £30K, the mayor's not interested and Lambeth aren't interested because our cluster of 75 lines isn't state owned affordable housing. The one bright star is Hyperoptic who've been supportive from the start, their first proposal was too expensive, although less than BT's, but they seem to have now come up with a proposal which is both affordable and would meet our various needs. It may just be that the private sector will come to our aid.

Do BT know yet that you are quite likely to be deserting them for Hyperoptic?
The threat of permanently losing subscribers can be a very effective lever, and it's amazing how quickly their mind can change when they realise that it is in their long term interest to make the investment.
They'll only hold out for a subsidy if they think they stand a realistic chance of getting one.
It's amazing how many exchanges (that had been perfectly viable to upgrade to ADSL, ADSL2, and ADSL2+, entirely at BTs expense) suddenly weren't viable on a commercial basis once there was BDUK money on the table.

In reply to a post by PhilLee:

Do BT know yet that you are quite likely to be deserting them for Hyperoptic?
The threat of permanently losing subscribers can be a very effective lever, and it's amazing how quickly their mind can change when they realise that it is in their long term interest to make the investment.

They do now! I've already been contacted by BT following my recent post.

In reply to a post by Fastman2:

MCM as you are aware there is an option for a communty to do a gap funded infill communth scheme with openreach for EO clusters

I know things have moved on at BT but in July 2013 the gap funded BT quote was £25K plus VAT, that is, £400 per property.

In reply to a post by MCM:

In reply to a post by PhilLee:

Do BT know yet that you are quite likely to be deserting them for Hyperoptic?
The threat of permanently losing subscribers can be a very effective lever, and it's amazing how quickly their mind can change when they realise that it is in their long term interest to make the investment.

They do now! I've already been contacted by BT following my recent post.

Phil, I thought that might put a grin on your face.

Thanks for all your posts guys, I've done a bit of further investigation and there are quite a few streets in the local area which don't have cabinet numbers listed. This area is part of an improvement program which is being run by Digital Scotland. It's nice to know that they can install cabinets for exchange only and that G.FAST is also a possibility. My local exchange (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/NSKNL) has a FTTC RFS of 31/12/14 so it's coming to this area. Will just have to keep fingers crossed!

I have read somewhere that BDUK monies is equaly to £500 per home. (perhaps thats BS so please correct me if i read that wrong)

So with my situation there are at least 150 properties effected by being EO, surely then there should be 75k funds available from BDUK in this case.

So the chap who was quoted 30k for work done then why is that not being refugered using BDUK money ? (and same in my case).

What are they doing with the money ? As this is public money surely there is some form of regulator making sure the money is being used fairly and to improve services for the worst effected.

Amount varies from project to project and what the goal is.

It is a limited fund too, so planning is used to ration it out.

There will be an average amount per home but some will be cheap and some will be less cheap. It is not an amount for a home and if It is more than that then it won't be done. Hopefully they will hit some cabs will they will get 100's of people connected relatively cheaply but there may be another cab with 5 people that will cost a significant amount.

Really it is political.

I have seen fibre cabinets erected before the houses have been built, although houses dont take long to buil now. Probably possible to build a house quicker than openreach can change a plug.

I have 3 cabinets a stones throw from my home (One I had never noticed before as it was installed inside a hedge, pretty clever really). Surely to rectify the cluster of EO lines cash could have been saved in the long term by fitting either a larger cabinet or 2 cabinets side by side then re routing the line on the poles to the cabinet. Not a great deal of work involved considering. Now if they aim to fix the EO lines it will be from square one.

So looks like their planning involves a 3 year old some crayons and a map.

As already said some homes will be cheaper than others, a lot of homes wouldnt even require BDUK cash. So really what are they doing with this cash? How much of this cash is wasted on providing fibre to ghost industrial estates and new housing estates mid build? Surely tax payers should get some kind of breakdown.

Time to talk to your local elected officials and make them aware of the desire for more public information on the roll-out.

NOTE: Some counties have EU funding that is specifically reserved for businesses and thus the ghost industrial estates are a key part of regeneration to encourage new firms and new jobs to an area.

At the end of the day, if others can be serviced for less than you, why should YOU get more spent on you? Yes it is very frustrating, but that is what it boils down to.

The planning may look haphazard but from outside you can see the patterns and value for money and getting the most with some form of improvement are key decision drivers.

Is it fair? Probably not, but to be fair then a 100% with access to superfast would have been the original goal of a project.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Time to talk to your local elected officials and make them aware of the desire for more public information on the roll-out.

NOTE: Some counties have EU funding that is specifically reserved for businesses and thus the ghost industrial estates are a key part of regeneration to encourage new firms and new jobs to an area.

At the end of the day, if others can be serviced for less than you, why should YOU get more spent on you? Yes it is very frustrating, but that is what it boils down to.

The planning may look haphazard but from outside you can see the patterns and value for money and getting the most with some form of improvement are key decision drivers.

Is it fair? Probably not, but to be fair then a 100% with access to superfast would have been the original goal of a project.

Case and point why should public funds be used to increase EO lines which are already over 8mb speeds and leave the long EO lines which are between 1mb and 3mb in the dark.

It is not fair, never will be fair. I dont think anyone with half a brain expected it to be fair. I have already pushed my local MP over this. Her response was to email openreach. Yup you guessed it another donkey from Labour.

Increasing access to superfast only further decreases those with slow speeds further into broadband poverty. The fact the local MP hasnt got a clue about any of it speaks volumes.

So why should people like me get more spent on them, well simple we had the worse speeds to start off with due to the network structure so surely making everyone have access to decent speeds. Instead all they done was back fund commercial roll out under the "guise" of providing superfast broadband to all. Which is a great thing for those who benefitted, not so good to those who have seen reductions on house values and sat on a side wall like the kid who didnt get picked to play football.

No one wants to speak about this, its like a dirty little secret. Fortunately I managed to get a speed increase by continiously badgering openreach to do their job properly. It took over 4 years and about 15 engineer visists but I managed to get a speed capable of streaming and playing games online. I feel sorry for those who havent got the speeds to at least do the simplest of tasks.

The commercial roll-outs stopped at around 66% coverage, and the reports back in 2008/2009 indicated that the cost of delivering faster speeds to the final per cent was going to be a lot higher, so Government raided the store cupboard and found £530m.

Someone suggested this might with funding from councils and commercial partners mean 90% can get superfast speeds. So no surprise that councils are spending in a way that ensures they can hit the targets, and the good ones are hoping that if money left over they can go further. Others are just doing enough to avoid a rebellion.

Given the target is superfast, then anyone on ADSL2+ speeds is in scope. If the target was 90% with 8 Mbps or faster then a different course would have played out.

Remember the very high profile Public Accounts Committee grilling, more worried about value for money and keeping teams busy scrutinising piles of invoices than the actual delivery.

Even if BT had not won a contract, the result would have been very similar, with some areas getting help and others not. It might have been different groups as not building out from an existing network, but a totally new venture.

All you can do is ensure that the projects know about you and your area and attempt to get included in the current or extension projects, or encourage a commercial competitor to make money from the area or do the DIY approach.

In reply to a post by RossMcG:

I have read somewhere that BDUK monies is equaly to £500 per home. (perhaps thats BS so please correct me if i read that wrong)

Not close.

I guess it differs county-by-county, but it very much depends on the target coverage set by the county, governed by how much extra the county chose to add for itself. As the targets increase, the marginal cost per property increases - somewhat exponentially.

For example, Surrey got £1.3m from central funds, but added £20m of their own to target a high percentage - over 99% of properties. That's around 80,000 properties at a high average of £266 per property.

North Yorkshire got £17.8m from central government, and added £8.6m from the EU, but added nothing itself. The target there is around 90% of properties, and £5m of the budget is being left for the USC portion. This budget for phase 1 of the NGA work will reach 150,000 properties, so amounts to a lower figure of £142 per property.

The lower average figure for North Yorkshire is because the project (with a target of 90%) isn't yet targeting the *really* expensive properties...

North Yorkshire got some additional funds for a second phase of work (although the money still comes from the phase 1 pot centrally). This amounts to £8m from central government, county and the EU. An additional £2m gets released from the previous USC budget to augment the total spend on NGA.

This £10m buys 11,000 properties at superfast speeds (a staggering £900 per property), but actually connects 17,700 properties to NGA cabinets (£564 per property).

As you can see... the amount per property starts to rise dramatically once the targets go beyond 90%.

There is a 'gotcha' to these figures, as the first number could be improved by use of FTTRN, if the trials proceed successfully. If they do, then the former number increases to 16,000 properties (so would be £625 per property); the second number does not increase.

This is also visible when you look at the central funding of the two BDUK phases announced so far:

The first phase (targetting 90%) will improve speeds for roughly 20% of the country. £500m aimed at about 5.2 million properties; £96 per property (the centrally-funded portion only).

The second phase (targetting 95%) will improve speeds for roughly 5% of the country.
£250m aimed at about 1.3 million properties; £192 per property (again, the central portion only).

surely there is some form of regulator making sure the money is being used fairly and to improve services for the worst effected

No. The money is definitely not being targetted at the worst affected. Using value-for-money criteria, it is being used to target the ones who can be upgraded for the lowest capital outlay - which ensures that the (finite) pot of money brings superfast speeds to the highest number of properties.

These properties aren't likely to be the worst affected.

Even the next phase of money doesn't target the worst affected ... just the next 5% - leaving the final 5% still waiting.

WWWombat, a very informitive and interesting post thanks very much for the info.

"I just get angered by the whole "we aim to bring superfast broadband to everyone" stuff like that is just utter drivell. I hate liars.

I accept the fact for those on long EO lines chances are they will only see superfast by moving property, self funding or when "superfast" is superseeded by another technology.

For me I happen to think I am in quite a large cluster of EO lines, the chance was there for them to ammend that and they did nada. Openreach dont give a stuff, as mentioned before if it was anyone other than openreach they wouldnt care either (although at least standards would be better).

In reply to a post by RossMcG:

Openreach dont give a stuff, as mentioned before if it was anyone other than openreach they wouldnt care either (although at least standards would be better).

As far as I am aware OpenReach are just a contractor who do work for whoever is prepared to pay for their services.

Do your numbers include the money that BT put in for each of the projects? That can also vary wildly between counties so in some they will be providing a lot more per household than others.

In reply to a post by Stevenage_Neil:

In reply to a post by RossMcG:

Openreach dont give a stuff, as mentioned before if it was anyone other than openreach they wouldnt care either (although at least standards would be better).

As far as I am aware OpenReach are just a contractor who do work for whoever is prepared to pay for their services.

Indeed, unfortunately for me I have had a series of bad experiances with them. Luckily my ISP was picking up the tab, it took a guy on his first job as an Internet Engineer to solve the issues. He was engineer number 15 i believe. So I do not hold them in very high regard. Having no competition does that to a company though.

On EO lines:
The addition of a PCP is what makes EO lines more expensive than a bog-standard FTTC installation, and we are certainly seeing upgrades happen for quite a few places within BDUK, at least for the EO lines close to the exchange.

That tells us that just adding a PCP is expensive enough that it can't be done commercially, even where there is almost no distance to have to feed the fibre, but is cheap enough that it can be done within the 90% targets (ie isn't a mega-expensive option).

In the case of remote EO lines, I guess they have the same bare expense for adding a PCP cabinet but have additional expense comes in the form of the distance that fibre has to be fed; an obvious question is whether remote EO lines are ducted in a similar manner to "standard" E-side cables. If there is ducting & space, the fibre can get there, but if the EO lines get out to the remote site in a non-standard way, then this will act as an additional barrier to installation.

On cabinet size:
We also know that commercial upgrades seemed to happen when cabinet served more than 300 properties. The North Yorkshire BDUK project (phase 1) averages around 220 properties per cabinet, but I reckon the smallest ones are around 100 properties.

So 150 properties would probably be a big enough cluster, if it had a cabinet, to get included in phase 1 BDUK projects, but would have been too small to be done commercially.

Being EO, plus being remote, and being limited size makes 3 things that count against you when being measured against other communities. My gut feel is that this would make you borderline for inclusion in a 90% target.

However, I suspect that you would be easily included in a 95% target - the final 5% really does come from individual properties, and groups of less than 40 properties. Perhaps the next phase will be better news.

wow thanks WWWombat today sure is a school day for me I appreciate all that info.

When my area was uppgraded to FTTC they installed 3 cabinets within 200 meters vacinity of the cluster of EO houses, really close. Perhaps im being daft but currently all the EO houses use telegraph poles (perhaps ever line uses these, im not a phone spotter). The pole I am services by (which is in my garden grrr) must be about 50 meters as the crow flies from one of the cabinets. Surely they could have rearrange these lines to go to the cabinet without the need of much construction. Route all the lines to one (or more) cabinets and add as new lines to the cabinet. I could see the point in doing nothing yet if the cabinets were miles away. If capacity was an issue then use a bigger cabinet. Surely in the long run that would be cheaper than doing the work in 5 years time.

What really bamboozles me is there is a house in the middle of the cluster thats connected to a FTTC cabinet. One random house lol

In reply to a post by ian72:

Do your numbers include the money that BT put in for each of the projects? That can also vary wildly between counties so in some they will be providing a lot more per household than others.

No, the numbers are for just the public subsidies involved.

I have a slightly different view of the way BT's internal investment applies though...

As the whole BDUK process uses a gap funding model, I assume that means there is a maximum amount (per property) that BT are willing to invest (and which can be calculated from the threshold at which they decide cabinets were not viable commercially). From this assumption, I think that BT's portion of the funding should amount to that maximum amount per property... for every single property within the BDUK target.

That would mean some cabinets get deployed for as little as £1 subsidy - where they only just failed the viability test. And some cabinets will have a *huge* subsidy, where they weren't close to being viable.

My assumption is that in the sparse counties (such as North Yorkshire), there are very few of the £1 cabinets and many more of the expensive ones - so BT's investment looks proportionately small there. Meanwhile in the denser counties (such as Surrey or the Black Country), there are more of the £1 cabinets and fewer of the expensive ones - so BT's investment looks proportionately higher.

But these figures aren't reported consistently across the country, so can't be checked by the public. DCMS probably knows better than we ever will.

Maybe the existing phone cabinet is full? If so, then they would have to put another phone cabinet in plus the capacity for the FTTC cabinet. That, planning permission and the moving of the lines may have scuppered it.

In reply to a post by ian72:

Maybe the existing phone cabinet is full? If so, then they would have to put another phone cabinet in plus the capacity for the FTTC cabinet. That, planning permission and the moving of the lines may have scuppered it.

They never applied, I checked. Also cabinet cant be full before its placed, that would be compensated if using a larger cabinet.

I can understand the irritation then.

There has been mention of "copper re-arrangement" where the copper distribution gets changed to improve outcomes for subscribers. I'd assume that this allows for moving people into an already-upgraded cabinet that is nearer to their home than the one they are actually served by. Or moving remote EO lines onto a nearby cabinet.

The one project that has actively mentioned this principle is the Coventry, Solihull & Warwickshire project, but they haven't given a massive amount of detail.

In principle, this is an obvious solution for you.

However, you have to remember why those properties weren't wired that way in the first place. Presumably the cabinet was already full, or the lines into that cabinet were full; or the underground ducts just don't go in that direction. Rectifying either of these problems wouldn't be a cheap option.

Another problem springs to mind, given your description. Are the EO properties so intermingled with the cabinet-served properties that each postcode appears to already have NGA coverage? If so, the county might have declared your area "NGA grey" because it looked to be covered - which would preclude use of subsidies at all.

There was someone on here recently, fed by a cabinet that hadn't been upgraded. Every postcode on that cabinet was also served by another cabinet (and at least 50% served by that other cabinet), so the area looked, at first glance, to be ineligible.

To call Openreach engineers Internet engineers is a MASSIVE stretch of the imagination, then have no concept and no need to know how the Internet works, not even the complexities of how backhaul is handled from the cabinets.

They are trained on the topics they will encounter, but willing to bet not one Openreach engineer doing the normal day to day home visits knows what BGP, OSPF and other key things to running the Internet are about.

The 3 cabinets you say they installed would have been fibre twins to existing phone cabs. If those phone cabs were already full then it is these that they would have ended up having to change or add to - and it may be this that stopped it.

To get you on FTTC you need a phone cab and a fibre cab. If the phone cab is full then that could stop them moving your EO lines over regardless of how big the fibre twin is.

In reply to a post by WWWombat:

Another problem springs to mind, given your description. Are the EO properties so intermingled with the cabinet-served properties that each postcode appears to already have NGA coverage? If so, the county might have declared your area "NGA grey" because it looked to be covered - which would preclude use of subsidies at all.

When I check on the openreach thing it gives a question mark. The properties are in no way intermingled. Its simply a chunk at the edge of town. We are bordered by the cabinets ironicly.

@MrSafron
It is openreach who used the term 'Internet Engineer'.

May I also add that Openreach have a nice habbit of closing cases regardless of the outcome so the fabled 28 days + 3 engineer visist = an escalation is the stuff of myth.

These 'Engineers' come out pick up the phone, hear a dial tone. Go sit in the van for 20 minutes. Tell you you should move house if you want faster internet. Go home.

However they use the terms 'Telephone' & 'Broadband/Internet' engineers. I have no doubt they have 'Fibre ' Engineers now.

and by the same token I have a yellow junmpsuit so I must be a Power Ranger!

So the chap who was quoted 30k for work done then why is that not being refugered using BDUK money ?

That's easy. There's no BDUK money available for London.

Then again, the guy rodding the drains doesn't need to know exactly how the ordure got there, just how to make it flow as best is possible.

Edited by Zarjaz (Mon 06-Oct-14 23:16:31)

That sounds very promising. The charity I work for have just bought a farm outside of Holsworthy and checking out the availability of broadband it seems the site is on an EO line (well, the current line, we've just ordered an additional line from Zen). Checking the postcode on the Connecting Devon & Somerset web site suggests that the location wasn't due for upgrading with the current funding and it could be 2017, so I'm staying ever hopeful (we've got 2 other sites in similar situations, too remote to warrant being upgraded).

Still fingers crossed things will change as time goes on

Rob

Ross

Really it is political.

I have seen fibre cabinets erected before the houses have been built, although houses dont take long to buil now. Probably possible to build a house quicker than openreach can change a plug.

if this iteh case they wll not be fibre cabinerts they will be copper cabs where te devloper has only reaquested voice serviuce (no fibre)-- there will be no fibre on these developments unless someone funds it

In reply to a post by Fastman2:

if this iteh case they wll not be fibre cabinerts they will be copper cabs where te devloper has only reaquested voice serviuce (no fibre)-- there will be no fibre on these developments unless someone funds it

It is in a contracters best interest to provide Fibre for any new home buyer, not in the interests of BDUK or council funding. However I have no doubt funding will have been wrongly used for this purpose as a sweetner to bring jobs etc to local areas.

It is about priorities and a new build may be part of a wider investment, e.g. new housing to accommodate and attract firms to an area as part of a wider regeneration scheme, and thus broadband provision is a key part of this.

Oddly its usually new build estates complaining about the lack of fibre based broadband, so would be interesting to find out exactly which roads/cabinets are involved.

It is also possible the cabinets might have been deployed as part of the commercial roll-out, or part funded by the developer. Or they might even be Virgin Media cabinets.

Bringing jobs to an area is a pretty important thing for councils to do.

All new estates built here have fibre installed, I thought this was the norm and would be facilitated or at least partly by the constructor. Where openreach fibre is not provided Virgin are providing.

Virgin media have some investment in the local area here now, having purchased Small world. It has a tiny footprint though but they are looking at expansion.


From Virgin:

Hi Ross,

Thank you for your enquiry regarding Virgin Media providing digital services at your home.

Unfortunately this area is too far from our existing network to be cabled by our infill activity.

To cable this area would require a major network extension. At this time, we do not have a programme of construction activity for towns and villages outwith our existing network. Our build programme is almost entirely focussed around working with builders and developers to cable new estates within our existing network footprint.

As we find new ways of serving areas such as this that are outwith the existing network, we will look at your request further and may be able to include this in build programmes in future years. However at this time, we will not be able to provide cable service to this area.

I appreciate this is not good news, but be assured we will continue to look for other solutions that may help us achieve this in the future.

Best regards

The Cablemystreet Team
Virgin Media | 1 South Gyle Crescent Lane , Edinburgh EH12 9EG

I was disapointed by this as I would love to be able to get Virgin Cable.

A relative moved into a new build in December last year. Still no fibre yet (despite the rest of the town being enabled and they are connected to a cabinet). BT said they were doing FTTP to the estate and that it would be in be April 14 but that hasn't happened. BDUK project has said it is in a phase next year for FTTC. Waiting to see which one might happen.

The developers seemed to have no particular interest in providing fibre and didn't seem to consider it important.

And here is where?

1000's of homes in Swindon will say the opposite and on new build estates we have featured news where firms like IFNL have delivered full FTTH without recourse to public money.

There is also example of a new build in Basingstoke, Virgin offered, builder refused and now campaigning to get Openreach to come to the flats.

Also see people in homes built since county projects conducted their Open Market Reviews that are being bypassed since they missed out on the initial planning.

In reply to a post by ian72:

A relative moved into a new build in December last year. Still no fibre yet (despite the rest of the town being enabled and they are connected to a cabinet). BT said they were doing FTTP to the estate and that it would be in be April 14 but that hasn't happened. BDUK project has said it is in a phase next year for FTTC. Waiting to see which one might happen.

The developers seemed to have no particular interest in providing fibre and didn't seem to consider it important.

Thats surprising as you would think they would try to make the sales as attractive as possible. Fibre provision and possible cable would be one of the first things I would consider.

How exactly do you guys get info from the bduk project?

Ive tried contacting our local MP, who in turn contacted Openreach and passed the buck completly.

what openreach say:

For exchange only lines the Scottish Government are keen to ensure no premise is left behind, regardless of how they are currently served. Our supplier has developed solution to fit most scenarios, for exchange only lines this might be providing a technology called fibre to the premise (fttp), this involved running fibre directly from an exchange to a home, so no need for a cabinet. Another solution is to build a new fibre to the cabinet network in the local area, this would involve putting new cabinets in at street level. Many of the areas which are poorly served would have up to now had little chance of improvement, that is why the Scottish Government is making an intervention, commercial bodies by default tend to only go where they can make a profitable investment. We aren�t able to confirm what technologies are being used until we start to build in an area, East Ayrshire is a council that have invested additional funding to the programme to maximise coverage to premises such as yourself. I would encourage you to keep an eye on the local press and our website over the coming week for further information in relation to East Ayrshire. I don�t know if you have managed to have a look at the video we have released on programme, but it�s pretty good at explaining the various solution available. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPgsCwMtjww&feature=e...

I would be most keen to know if there is another avenue of contact I could make.

I have tried Digital Scotland who say they respond to enquiries within 3 days, they have now ignored 3 enquiries,

Perhaps my name and email sets of a trigger!

BDUK here is pretty easy to contact. Emailed them on their published email address and had a response back within 24 hours. Just depends on the BDUK project and the team behind it as to how quickly they might respond (if at all).

Rather than your MP you might want to try your local councillor if you aren't getting any joy as they may have easier access to the right people. Although not sure exactly how the projects are structured for Scotland.

And yes - amazed the builder didn't get fibre in. But my brother didn't have it on the top of his list so didn't really ask about broadband before he bought - and then complained about how slow it was after he moved in. Personally broadband is one of my key considerations in a house although my fibre is not quite as good as I would like it is good enough for now.

And around here there is virtually no Virgin. Only 2 towns in the County have Virgin and the County town doesn't because they refused the planning permission for cable back in the 8i0's - wouldn't let them dig up the roads/pavements.

I purchased my house 5 years ago, at the time I did enquire to openreach about fibre and they said we would be part of any role out in the area. Never knew about EO lines and to be honest I dont think openreach gave it a second thought. Hindsight!

The BDUK here seems to be run by Digital Scotland, and they are dreadfull at getting back to any enquiry.

I shall pester the local council. The MP was useless, she sure lost a vote there! I also have 150 letters to distribute with a letter of complaint to the local MP.

I can only suggest you try to get a petition going with your local Parish Council and for them to show your County Council why the investment is needed in your location, as you state, if there is a collection of houses near each other on EO lines does make the upgrade simpler, but not simple.

In reply to a post by godsell4:

I can only suggest you try to get a petition going with your local Parish Council and for them to show your County Council why the investment is needed in your location, as you state, if there is a collection of houses near each other on EO lines does make the upgrade simpler, but not simple.

I dont live in a village so Parish council would be no good. I will letter all prompting to send a letter to the local MP, I will also investigate the local council and start demanding answers in writting.

You will have a local council that should comprise of people locally, the MP generally have an over view with little precise detail - collecting something at the local council level before going to an MP makes things look more organised, i.e. serious

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

To call Openreach engineers Internet engineers is a MASSIVE stretch of the imagination, then have no concept and no need to know how the Internet works, not even the complexities of how backhaul is handled from the cabinets.

They are trained on the topics they will encounter, but willing to bet not one Openreach engineer doing the normal day to day home visits knows what BGP, OSPF and other key things to running the Internet are about.

Wow how arrogant is that statement? And you'd be wrong actually.

In reply to a post by Icaras:

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

To call Openreach engineers Internet engineers is a MASSIVE stretch of the imagination, then have no concept and no need to know how the Internet works, not even the complexities of how backhaul is handled from the cabinets.

They are trained on the topics they will encounter, but willing to bet not one Openreach engineer doing the normal day to day home visits knows what BGP, OSPF and other key things to running the Internet are about.

Wow how arrogant is that statement? And you'd be wrong actually.

I disagree, many people are called "engineers" when it is neither warrented or earned. My degree is in Software Engineering however I would never be so arrogant as to lable myself as an engineer.

Openreach being engineers is exactly the same as binmen being refuse engineers (no offense to binmen)..

This is one of the many terms overused in all the wrong ways without the expertese or knowlege which should merit the title.

There is an aspect of the issue that is rarely discussed by enthusiasts for faster speeds but which is a crucial consideration for anyone spending real money. General experience - from large to small operators - is that the initial take-up rate for faster broadband is only about 20% of those to whom it is offered. Gradually, the take-up will increase but there are plenty of people who are not that concerned about slow broadband speeds and remember that 20-25% of premises don't have any kind of broadband connection.

Now, do the maths concerning the return on investment. If you spend £50,000 to offer SFB to 200 properties (£250 per property), you need to generate extra net revenue (after operating costs & VAT) of £6,000 per year or at least £9,000 gross in order to earn a reasonable return on investment. That is £30 per month with an initial take-up rate of 25%. This would fall to £15 per month when the take-up rate is 50% but that is likely to be 3-4 years away.

In practice, the additional revenue from a SFB connection is much lower - probably less than £10 per month (excl VAT). This is declining over time because prices are set in the most competitive (and lowest cost) segment of the market. On reasonable assumptions it will take up to a year to simply cover operating costs and cumulative recovery of the investment may be less than 50% after even 8 years.

If the cost of investment per property is (much) higher for small cabinets or difficult locations and/or the prospective additional revenue per subscriber is lower, it is obvious that the gap to be filled widens very rapidly. Either cheaper ways of extending coverage of faster broadband have to be adopted or some form of cross-subsidy is required.

It is a standard principle of regulatory practice that charges should at least cover operating costs - not just billing, support & maintenance but also backhaul, transit & peering costs. As the premium commanded by faster broadband is squeezed, the margin over operating costs earned by serving more customers in expensive locations becomes so small that it is barely worth extending coverage even when most of the capital costs are covered by public subsidy.

One basic conclusion: Lobbying, etc is mostly pointless unless you can ensure a high take-up rate from the beginning - and not at the lowest level of charges. Whether it is BT-OR or the smallest altnet, what matters to the operator is the revenue that can be more or less guaranteed within 6 or 12 months of starting up. Remember too that statements of intent aren't worth a lot - what people say and how they act are rather different. In my experience, most people who say that they are willing to pay for faster broadband will, eventually, do that but it may take them 12 months or more to sign up. That period is critical in terms of the pay-off on the investment.

A well constructed argument! Add in the fact that in many cases broadband provision is a loss leader for the lucrative Line Rental and the waters muddier further..........

In reply to a post by gah789:

One basic conclusion: Lobbying, etc is mostly pointless unless you can ensure a high take-up rate from the beginning - and not at the lowest level of charges.

Without a doubt and Openreach came out straight away and said to many people with similar enquiries that they will not be providing fibre due to it not being economicly viable. They advise that you show expresion of interest and I have no doubt if that is high enough then they will provide, even if its a break even situation, it does future proof. However no business will ever invest in a loss.

It would seem that "wave 1" is now complete, I would love to know what wave 2 is in my area and the final wave. Just seems no one actualy wants to share that info.

But yes you are definately correct.

In my area there are 8 waves. Think they have already done a couple and I think they also overlap (ie doing build for wave 1 whilst planning is underway for wave 2, etc).

The response I got from our local BDUK for my brother was that they would begin surveying in Autumn 2014 for his phase and assuming the results were ok then would be able to get the service from Summer 2015.

Precisely.

Once this argument has been accepted, it is easy to see the longer-term corollary:

On the route to FTTP (if we ever get there), we will see a sequential set of stepwise investments, each being a "manageable chunk" that assures return in a risk-managed tolerable period (each as described by gah789). It is more likely to be the size of the finances in each step that dictate the technology, rather than vice-versa.

With numbers, this can be seen as:
It is hard to warrant spending £1,000+ per home to install FTTP in one go, but it is easier to manage 3 lots of £300-ish in steps.

Step 1 of FTTC, step 2 of FTTdp, step 3 of FTTP.

For some of the more remote locations, we're likely to see a step 1a of FTTRN. I can see that adding another chunk of £300-ish, though right now this would come entirely from subsidy rather than monthly subs.

I fear that even doing that people like myself with long EO lines will again be left out the equation.

If openreach came to me and said £1000 and we will provide you with FTTP with a 2 year contract at £100 a month I would pay, I dont think many would though as not everyone has that sort of disposable income.

I think you'll find it would be much more than that. Even FTTPoD (which requires FTTC to already be available) costs much more than that on long lines.

EDIT: And FTTPoD is a 3 year contract as well.

Edited by ian72 (Wed 08-Oct-14 14:54:07)

In reply to a post by ian72:

I think you'll find it would be much more than that. Even FTTPoD (which requires FTTC to already be available) costs much more than that on long lines.

EDIT: And FTTPoD is a 3 year contract as well.

I know and it sucks ! If wired to the closest cabinet it would be cheap, however:

You are approximately 2.66km from the exchange. Note that this is the straight line distance - the actual cable length will be longer!

According to the last Openreach Engineer (coff coff) my line iis between 5km and 7km (no 2 engineers give the same length, another reason why I have 0 confidence in them). My line is just so cool it does a victory lap of the town. So from what little i know i could be looking at a cost similar to a new car.

3 year contract would be fine as long as it is unlimited data.

I still believe BDUK should have sorted out rural areas and EO lines so the network is 100% compatable with current and future technology. In the interm fibre could have been provided to those who are deemed economicly viable and no need for BDUK cash to have been used there.

I'm intrigued by your response!

Until recently, when I went on the BT's Fibre Checker, my Exchange (SMOA) was shown as Not-Considered - which it what I expected since I'm on a EO line.

However, I've just checked & it is now showing CS (coming soon) with a Target Date of Dec'14.

Can't find any other info, so I don't know if they have decided to install Cabinets (no sign of such activity), or they are using alternative Technology to resolve the EO issue!!

There will be a couple of new cabs outside the exchange. Expect those to come later on.

Put your phone number into http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/ADSLChecker.Teleph... does it show you are connected via a cabinet or not?

In reply to a post by godsell4:

Put your phone number into http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/ADSLChecker.Teleph... does it show you are connected via a cabinet or not?

Not!

You're seeing exactly what I saw when I used the line checker, no cabinet number, but I kept using the checker quite frequently after I saw one large and one small cabinet being installed just along the road from my house. It took months for the information on the line checker to change but it did change eventually and I am now on cabinet 11. Depending on how many EO lines are in your exchange and who's doing the funding you'll eventually see cabinets being installed around your area. At least that was my experience. I wouldn't depend too much on dates put out by OR as they can change monthly. The EO lines here in my area were installed and working 3 months ahead of schedule which was nice.

Caley.