Traffic lights required to enter PCP

Two weeks ago I had Openreach on site to install a new Zen phone line for "fibre" broadband. The Openreach engineer advised me he couldnt complete the install as he was not allowed to enter the PCP to fit the jumpers to the fibre cabinet. He told me they now need traffic lights at this particular PCP as it is too close to the side of the road.

I was a bit annoyed at the time having waited weeks for an appointment and then being told this on the day. Fair enough if there is a safety issue to enter the box but they must have known what box they had to go into when it was ordered, the site is within 100m of this PCP and the next nearest PCP is many miles away. Anyway ... it has now been a further two weeks (~4 weeks from initial order) and I dont even have an install/activation date yet. Its not Zen's fault but I dont get the impression anybody at Openreach is making much of an effort to make this happen.

Any advise on how to get Openreach to accelerate the order, at least give me a date?

Where's the box?

On PCP positioning was probably fine when originally built but roads get busier and sometimes pavements shrink a bit to widen a dodgy bit of road and while an engineer might have been ok on their stool, if they feel they'd be obstructing the pavement and causing others to have to use the road go around them, or simply did not want lorries passing with a few inches of their back they are free to report as such up the chain.

Perfect world the PCP would be relocated at a considerable cost.

This is one of those you can understand and there is discretion and if your engineer had previously had a close run-in with a vehicle at a cabinet they might not be as willing as others to open the doors and do it quickly.

Down to Zen to keep the pressure up and make sure the job is not forgotten.

AB33 8DQ

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@57.2233767,-2.6329964...

https://goo.gl/maps/mRYeNvRJ5rz shows it a little bit better.

Very tight and could easily get taken out by a driver not paying attention.

Matt

No denying its close to the road and if its a safety issue to enter i get that. What I'm struggling to do is get a date they are actually going to turn up with the lights to do the connection. Road restrictions require weeks of notice to the council, it just seems that nobody is driving it to make it happen.

There might be more to it as MrSaffron covered...

If they have to get lights every single time they need to enter the cabinet, for provision or faults (both single user and potential hardware failure), that'd be troublesome.

It is possible they are reviewing what to do longer term (i.e move/reposition) and have held any further progress on orders in progress but with that, the wholesaler still seems to indicate they are accepting orders.

Matt

I wonder if it is possible to simply lift the top part of the PCP box; turn it through 180 degrees and set it down again, so that any upgrades etc can be carried out from the main grass verge side?

That is, leaving the wiring etc "as-is", would it still be reasonably accessible; or would tall of the interior have to be rotated as well?

My understanding was that the old PCP box was the main issue as that opens onto an A road. The new FTTC cabinet is also close to the road but its a far less busy B road.

I'm sorry, but really ??

Had to rotate that pic Matt, and it looks as if lorries turning left out of the B road sometimes get their wheels almost up to the PCP. It's almost a wonder it's still standing.

Don't jinx it

Matt

That would have been an issue well before now though - it's been standing a while by the look of it....

Matt

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

it looks as if lorries turning left out of the B road sometimes get their wheels almost up to the PCP. It's almost a wonder it's still standing.

Well spotted!

At least they put the FTTC cabinet round the corner!

I know the road has not been upgraded for a few years and teh PCP was probably well back when installed. I've been past that one a few time en-route to/from Rhynie!

In reply to a post by eckiedoo:

I wonder if it is possible to simply lift the top part of the PCP box; turn it through 180 degrees and set it down again, so that any upgrades etc can be carried out from the main grass verge side?

That is, leaving the wiring etc "as-is", would it still be reasonably accessible; or would tall of the interior have to be rotated as well?

I was thinking the exact same thing

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I'm sorry, but really ??

LOL, I thought that very funny sorry.

*** update ***
Couldn't they just install a couple of bollards either side of both cabinets?

Then you would just need worry about the vehicles becoming airborne

Paul

Edited by PaulKirby (Wed 18-Nov-15 00:04:37)

Trouble is the bollards would need to be on the A-road.

If you look at Matt's picture, it starts with the FTTC cab, which is irrelevant. Rotate it and you see the PCP - the guy kneels in front of it far enough away to work, and his feet will be in the A-road.

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 18-Nov-15 00:34:49)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Trouble is the bollards would need to be on the A-road.

If you look at Matt's picture, it starts with the FTTC cab, which is irrelevant. Rotate it and you see the PCP - the guy kneels in front of it far enough away to work, and his feet will be in the A-road.

True.

Paul

Erect temporary barriers and do the work outside of peak traffic times..

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9...

In reply to a post by craski:

I was a bit annoyed at the time having waited weeks for an appointment and then being told this on the day. Fair enough if there is a safety issue to enter the box but they must have known what box they had to go into when it was ordered, the site is within 100m of this PCP and the next nearest PCP is many miles away. Anyway ... it has now been a further two weeks (~4 weeks from initial order) and I dont even have an install/activation date yet. Its not Zen's fault but I dont get the impression anybody at Openreach is making much of an effort to make this happen.

Openreach don't make any effort to do this - they'll send someone out, he'll say it can't be done, and it gets bounced. No matter how many times the same scenario has cropped up because nothing is joined up at that end.

If you're *lucky*, the chap that came out will submit a request for an A55 and you've half a chance. If he doesn't, scenarios include them committing a new date, turning up and failing again, them turning up along with the traffic management company (such as lux) who then refuse to setup lights because the wrong type is in place, or they need to do a survey as the road is classified in such a way or they judge it not safe, and you go through this process again - each time hoping everyone does the right thing.

Total nightmare as it's the most disjointed process imaginable.

My advice is - contact your CP (Zen) and ask them to find out what's happening, and get them to ask if an A55 was requested, and what is the state of that request. It should get surveyed - by the traffic management people ideally to avoid hassle as they'll give the final "yes or no"

Edited by therioman (Wed 18-Nov-15 08:42:21)

In reply to a post by microtan:

Erect temporary barriers and do the work outside of peak traffic times..

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9...

Agreed, they did the same here when they dug out an old small chamber and built a larger (standard size) chamber.
This took up the whole pavement so they added a barrier on the road so people could walk down.

So that could work, but on a main road that would still possibly require lights.

Paul

It gets worse ...

The broadband activation is being held up as the phone line isn't installed yet.
They cant install the phone line as one of the poles they need to climb is rotten so they need the cherry picker to do that. I wasnt on site but apparently the cherry picker turned up two weeks ago to do the work on that pole and the guys stood about for an hour and were heard to say "We'll just wait for the traffic lights" and left without doing anything.

It seems that I'm in this endless loop at Openreach.
i.e The broadband guys are waiting for phone line to be installed but the line isnt going to be installed as the cherry picker guys have decided they'll just wait until the broadband guys rock up with their traffic lights and do it at the same time. What a farce!

In reply to a post by uno:

https://goo.gl/maps/mRYeNvRJ5rz shows it a little bit better.

Very tight and could easily get taken out by a driver not paying attention.

Matt

Is that a suggested solution?!

On that road the Google images show the "Peak Time Traffic", one problem will be the grain lorries fully loaded that probably trundle through on a regular basis.

Plus the double white lines. So a BT engineer cannot just form a diversion past him, even if it worked.

Why not? You can cross them to pass a stationary vehicle. So, if he parks his van drivers can legitimately pass - if it is safe.

Because you can't park within 10 metres of a junction.

And because it's on a junction it would probably need 3 way traffic lights...

What's the big deal here. I don't see the problem. I'd do the job if I was an Openreach engineer.
Park his van a few yards before the box, with 2 wheels on the grass verge. A warning sign a few yards before that and just get on with it.
As long as it's not during peak hours, he'll won't be there for long!
Everyone is so quick to find a problem where there isn't one. The UK is becoming a nation of wimps these days. Let's hope there is never another WW2 type war. Whatever happened to the "Bulldog Spirit"?

In reply to a post by binary:

Is that a suggested solution?!

Where's that whistle emoticon when you need it

Matt

In reply to a post by rogerfp:

What's the big deal here. I don't see the problem. I'd do the job if I was an Openreach engineer.
Park his van a few yards before the box, with 2 wheels on the grass verge.

Are you looking at the FTTC cabinet on the side road, or the PCP cabinet on the main road? It's the PCP he has to work on.

Your solution isn't really feasible.

Indeed. Parking the van partly on the pavement where the PCP cabinet is would cause a significant obstruction to visibility when turning out of that side road. The vans are solid so can't be seen through so you would need to be very careful trying to come out and could meet traffic coming the other way.

Not sure what the distance is to the corner as you pass the cabinet but it doesn't look that far away so someone coming around that bend at speed could be on them before they have got past the van.

And as BatBoy says, parking within 10m of a junction is a no-no. Even if he did, he would be at risk from some lorry hitting the van and he's mincemeat. Even if he wasn't, he could still be prosecuted and lose his job.

3 way traffic lights are required if the PCP needs access... this must have happened in the past I assume?

In reply to a post by keith969:

And as BatBoy says, parking within 10m of a junction is a no-no. Even if he did, he would be at risk from some lorry hitting the van and he's mincemeat. Even if he wasn't, he could still be prosecuted and lose his job.

3 way traffic lights are required if the PCP needs access... this must have happened in the past I assume?

OR they can use stop-go boards - the certainly use those around London.

Tricky if it's a 3 way junction, which this one is..

In reply to a post by MHC:

In reply to a post by keith969:

And as BatBoy says, parking within 10m of a junction is a no-no. Even if he did, he would be at risk from some lorry hitting the van and he's mincemeat. Even if he wasn't, he could still be prosecuted and lose his job.

3 way traffic lights are required if the PCP needs access... this must have happened in the past I assume?

OR they can use stop-go boards - the certainly use those around London.

Agreed.

Paul

In reply to a post by keith969:

Even if he did, he would be at risk from some lorry hitting the van and he's mincemeat.

The variety of tyre marks in the verge, in all three of the 2008, 2011 and 2015 streetview sets suggest that this is a risky spot. In fact, I'm amazed the PCP hasn't been flattened.

It does seem to be a remarkably stupid place to locate it. Why not nearer where the FTTC can is located off the B road?

Post deleted by Zarjaz

Post deleted by Zarjaz

I daresay when the cab was originally sited there wasn't the volume of traffic there now is, and regulations regarding safety were laxer.

I see what you mean Rob, as I was probably looking at the wrong box.
However, having said that, I'd still be happy to do the job on the other cabinet.
Wouldn't bother me as long as there were a few warning signs put out.
Still think that the UK is turning into Wimp World these days.
My attitude has always been "Action conquers fear" and stop worrying about what might never happen.

Edited by deleted (Wed 18-Nov-15 18:43:52)

Ouch. Time to go down the route of getting in contact with the Openreach CEOs office by the sounds of it.

Not that this shambles should be happening in the first place of course.

In reply to a post by craski:

It gets worse ...

You have my sympathy. Seriously. Everything you describe below is entirely normal and typical of my experiences with Openreach on a regular basis. They're utterly unorganised and waste a huge amount of people's time and effort, and they couldn't give a damn.

The broadband activation is being held up as the phone line isn't installed yet.
They cant install the phone line as one of the poles they need to climb is rotten so they need the cherry picker to do that.

And what happens there is you play a game of waiting to see if one of the very few cherry pickers they have in your area will be free - because they're mostly booked "on demand" - but there is a great resistance to ordering assistance because requesting an "assist" gets you moaned at by your line managers, so some engineers do all they can to avoid even trying. If you get a Kelly or Quinn bod out, they'll just refuse to do the job and you won't even get a chance at the cherry picker game.

I wasnt on site but apparently the cherry picker turned up two weeks ago to do the work on that pole and the guys stood about for an hour and were heard to say "We'll just wait for the traffic lights" and left without doing anything.

Also normal - and unless they specifically requested an A55 you won't get any progress - they'll send someone else out eventually (when you chase basically) and the same failure will happen. And even if they just note that an A55 is required, nobody actually reads notes, so unless they go through to the right people, you get no progress. It takes forever to get them to do things properly.

It seems that I'm in this endless loop at Openreach.

You are. The same loop I'm in most weeks for a customer. Drives you absolutely insane. I've had upwards of 30 failed appointments for one customer alone because they can't read notes or simply lie - for example suggesting the customer refused access when in fact I was on-site an hour before them - they just didn't have the right people available.

i.e The broadband guys are waiting for phone line to be installed but the line isnt going to be installed as the cherry picker guys have decided they'll just wait until the broadband guys rock up with their traffic lights and do it at the same time. What a farce!

Not quite how it works - the engineer that installs the phone line cannot do so because he needs an assist (cherry picker bloke) - and quite possibly a groundsman too - unless the engineer is sufficiently trained and allowed (often not).

You also need Openreach to organise traffic management (this often means Lux or similar), which in turn may require an Openreach Survey. If the Openreach Survey is not actually very good (it generally isn't) you might find Lux are asked to supply say a two-way light set, but then they turn up and refuse to put the lights out because either a different setup is needed which they don't have and OR hadn't paid for, or OR didn't deal with things like road widths, and so Lux say on safety grounds they're not allowed to proceed. Then if you're really lucky you might eventually get a survey by lux, who then say what's actually required. Then you have to hope OR and Lux will co-ordinate a date.

When you get to that date, you might still find that they've not managed to organise that either, and Lux still refuse it because the OR van is too wide or some aspect wasn't done properly on either survey. If you're really lucky they might eventually negotiate a compromise and install the line.

...and once the line is finally in, you might be able to have broadband. Assuming the installed line has no faults.

Oh and this is a short version of a real world scenario I had just a month ago, that had been on-going for almost 18 months...

Nobody "broadband" is involved - it's all Openreach and it's sub-contractors like Lux (or whoever they use where you are) to get the thing done. Finally - depending on the location and road, you may also find OR need to give the council a nudge and submit a street works request.

All good fun... not!

Good luck!

Which fixes the line ....

Then the need to get traffic lights to connect the FTTC arises ....

Sad to say Bob but i was just thinking the same ! At times is does my head in !

As for the OPs cab back in the day it would have been so easy to do but now days that is 3-way lights for sure .At £500 + ?

Do you remember RFT (Right First Time) and TQM (Total Quality Management)? Those date back to the 1970s/80s/90s efficiency drives, and saving money by not having to do things three times.

Neither lasted very long.

Oh gawd! RFT. I've just downloaded the PowerPoint presentation - will read it later.

There's also some TQM stuff.

The two between them should provide some hilarious reading.

This thread rings so many bells with the one I started nearly a month ago:

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4446571-re-...

I cannot for the life of me understand how OR continue to function. It appears that any line install is broken down into so many individual tiny tasks, that any progress is naturally going to be dramatically delayed by the increased man hours of a) traveling and b) allocating manpower - there appears to the 'customer' no joined up thinking.

I cannot understand how anyone at the top of OR can consider it efficient - if I operated this way in business I would have gone bust a lone time ago.

One month on since placing orders and still no lines, let alone fibre, but a whole load of excuses, and failed appointments without warning.

The presentation on this thread makes me laugh and is an utter joke, as no one at the top of OR clearly believes in it, or implements it!

Fortunately I have had Avanti Satellite installed as an interim measure, and it is actually fairly good, thus the OR saga is proving more of a daily joke, than threat to business plan now.

Good luck to the OP, you have my sympathies for sure.....

Yep i do Bob , i also remember "Dot Cotton" when she was at BT saying she had never seen a place so obsessed with stats ! Some may say its more like TMM !

Edited by deleted (Sun 22-Nov-15 10:39:35)

Let's just hope there ain't a fault in the cab otherwise it will get pushed back to ug and the cycle will start all over again

Some years back some poor sod was working at a cab in London when it and him were wiped out ! They did find the money to move the cab then , not that it did much good for the poor ex engineer.

Exactly Bert, what many fail to recall is the risks sometimes undertaken.

What a saga this is turning out to be.
Its with Openreach "Traffic management team" is the standard answer given when chased. You would think I was asking Openreach to plan open heart surgery, not install a telephone line.

I've been escalated to level 2 (whatever that really means) and have to wait another week before it can be escalated any further. Given that I'm keeping an eye on local council road restriction website and they need minimum of 2 weeks notice its looking highly likely I wont even get a phone line until late December at best, possibly even into next year and then I'll have a whole new set of hoops to jump through to get them to go into the FTTC cabinet. Damn you Openreach ...

When I retired a decade ago all highway works were subject to the Public Utilities and Street Works Act. This lays down the required signage and dimensions for safe working areas to protect the construction crews, be they on Mway crash barrier or busy street cabinet, and goes on to specify reinstatement standards for excavations. This is why large sections of lane are closed with no work going on -- it's to protect the workers, not to annoy the populace. Breaches of the Act are a criminal offence.

It must be immensely frustrating to have one's BB depending on this rigmarole and I agree that OR and ISP just don't seem to work together. But I've been on A-road and motorway works, with 30-ton chunks of metal hurtling past a few feet away, and I've been really frightened. These regulations are needed, so please spare a thought for the spray-drenched guys crouched at the roadside in all weathers.

and then I'll have a whole new set of hoops to jump through to get them to go into the FTTC cabinet.

I think this was mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Openreach do not need access to the DSLAM cab to connect your FTTC service, the only access required is to the street cabinet {PCP}

Just a small point of information .

Both your phone line and your FTTC are connected inside the PCP (phone cabinet). The engineer doesn't even have access to the FTTC one.

The links are installed at the time the FTTC cabinet is built, with a patch panel installed in the PCP. The engineer just diverts the line to it and picks up the return of the combined signal. So exchange >> PCP >> FTTC (where the fibre feed is - possibly from a different exchange) >> PCP >> you.

What you send retraces that route with the phone and VDSL2 signals being split in the FTTC cabinet .

I typed a lot .

Fret not Bob, most unusual for me to beat anyone at all on the speed of my reply.

Sorry ... my mistake ... I did mean PCP but typed FTTC.
Thanks for setting me straight though

Can a miracle happen and both provision of a new phone line AND an FTTC connection occur at the same time? I can happen - but will it?

Zen have said its not likely to happen at same time but not sure if that is based on what they've been told by Openreach or based on their own experience of similar situations.

Can a miracle happen and both provision of a new phone line AND an FTTC connection occur at the same time?

It can and does happen, on a daily basis, and especially if the CP has requested a combined provide.

... and the saga continues.

1st engineer visit - engineer identified traffic lights needed to get into PCP and a rotten pole would need a cherry picker to access it.

2nd engineer visit - cherry picker lads turned up, cant do the work on the rotten pole without traffic lights so nothing done.

SEVERAL WEEKS PASS

3rd engineer visit - cherry picker lads and traffic lights turn up to access top of rotten pole.

At 3rd visit I am amazed and frustrated that the traffic lights (which took 4 hours to get from Kirkcaldy to Aberdeenshire) are only used to access the rotten pole ... nothing was done on the PCP and I am assured its all under control.

I was then advised a 4th engineer visit is organised for 15th December. I repeatedly ask for confirmation that the engineer will be accompanied by traffic lights. Yes I am told but I continue to push for written confirmation of that. After several hours, I get told that yet another mistake has been made and they need to send another engineer to confirm if traffic lights are required before another further appointment can be made to actually connect the phone line and activate "fibre" broadband. This despite the fact the very first engineer who visited noted that on the job notes.

So 6 weeks from order and I'm still waiting for an activation date on a business connection.
The incompetence of BT Openreach office staff organising this connection is staggering!

If a linked order, you'd generally see both for the same day. We'd book lines for the morning slot (AM) and the linked FTTC order for afternoon (PM) to avoid the potential situation of the fibre engineer getting there and no line is ready.

The only instance where the dates can be different is where the line is booked and the second order isn't placed quick enough or there isn't an engineer slot on the day to match it so the second order (still linked to the first) is done on a different day.

Matt

As op of the thread, I'm happy to report that Zen and Openreach have finally got my new line installed and broadband activated, 8.5 weeks after ordering it. The process wasnt nearly as slick as it could have been but hard to attribute exactly where in system the communication problems were.

Here's hoping that the broadband lives up to Zen's reputation ... fingers crossed.