Order delayed by exception

FTTP finally went live 10 ago so I immediately went ahead and placed my order through Zen. This was done on a Tuesday and I was told to expect further updates by the end of the week. Got the usual order confirmation email and shipping notice foe the router. Nothing else so got in touch on the Friday evening to be told there was an exception on the line at their supplier (OR I assume). Told that this would need to be removed manually and would take 2 working days. Checked again this week and told it is still there and has been passed to a team leader and would update today. Called again today and told still no further forward and has been passed to somebody else and not to expect anything before next Tuesday.
What exactly is this 'exception'? Anybody had this happen with a new order and what was the resolution? Appreciate any info.

Exception is just a generic error so it could be almost anything from an address mis-match to the checker getting it wrong and the FTTP is not actually ready yet.

Resolution involves provider keeping on the game and chasing Openreach to make sure things are not forgot.

Ok thanks for the reply. Zen said they were in a web chat with their supplier about the issue and have escalated it. Just a case of checking for updates I suppose. Just a bit frustrating not knowing.

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

Ok thanks for the reply. Zen said they were in a web chat with their supplier about the issue and have escalated it. Just a case of checking for updates I suppose. Just a bit frustrating not knowing.

BT call those 'exception' as a TAG and nothing can progress until the issue has been resolved and the TAG removed.

I had a TAG put on my line due to fibres coming out of our Splitter Node was all in the wrong trays, so the fibres at all the DP's didn't match their database.

So BT sent out their engineers out (5 or so) to cut and re-join the fibres correctly into the right trays, which took a couple of weeks for the work to be done, then for us due to the incompetence of our case handler a further 2 to 3 weeks for the TAG to be removed from our line, then engineer visits booked and job done.

Overall very happy.

Paul

Suppose I'll just need to learn some patience then. Seems that nothing moves too quickly. Each contact with OR seems to come with a minimum of 2-3 working days before ZEN are allowed to contact them for an update. Always seems to land near a weekend too!

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

Suppose I'll just need to learn some patience then. Seems that nothing moves too quickly. Each contact with OR seems to come with a minimum of 2-3 working days before ZEN are allowed to contact them for an update. Always seems to land near a weekend too!

Well BT normally say up to 5 to 10 days to get an update, I normally wait that time and then pester them every day until it gets resolved or I get an update.

But yeah, I have had issues near the weekend.

Paul

Another week and no further forward. Email update from Zen to say there is still an exception and not able to progress the order. To check back next week again. I'll get on with running some cable around the house in anticipation.

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

Another week and no further forward. Email update from Zen to say there is still an exception and not able to progress the order. To check back next week again. I'll get on with running some cable around the house in anticipation.

I was on the phone to my case handler at BT on a daily basis and kept on at them until it was resolved.

I also did loads of checks and got loads of information before phoning to counter their fob off.

Have you tried Tweeting BT Openreach asking what the issue is?
It couldn't hurt.

Paul

Well, another week has passed and still no progress. There's still an exception on the order so it's not going through. Has apparently been escalated to level 3 which all sounds very impressive. I wonder how may levels of escalation there actually are!

Didn't Dante have something to say about the levels of escalation?

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

Well, another week has passed and still no progress. There's still an exception on the order so it's not going through. Has apparently been escalated to level 3 which all sounds very impressive. I wonder how may levels of escalation there actually are!

They are nothing special, your ISP should be keeping on at BT to find out the actual reason for the TAG on the line and keep at them to resolve it and have it removed.

They really need to keep at them or the TAG will never go and no upgrade will progress.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

Ok thanks for the reply. Zen said they were in a web chat with their supplier about the issue and have escalated it. Just a case of checking for updates I suppose. Just a bit frustrating not knowing.

BT call those 'exception' as a TAG and nothing can progress until the issue has been resolved and the TAG removed.

I had a TAG put on my line due to fibres coming out of our Splitter Node was all in the wrong trays, so the fibres at all the DP's didn't match their database.

So BT sent out their engineers out (5 or so) to cut and re-join the fibres correctly into the right trays, which took a couple of weeks for the work to be done, then for us due to the incompetence of our case handler a further 2 to 3 weeks for the TAG to be removed from our line, then engineer visits booked and job done.

Overall very happy.

Paul

Could Or not start referring to it as Openreach instead? I actually find your posts quite confusing when you refer to Openreach as BT.

Further email from Zen. No further progress. OR have told them to check for an update in a week! Apparently escalated again due to 'unsatisfactory information'. I get the feeling that this isn't going to be sorted out anytime soon

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

Further email from Zen. No further progress. OR have told them to check for an update in a week! Apparently escalated again due to 'unsatisfactory information'. I get the feeling that this isn't going to be sorted out anytime soon

Yeah, one of my neighbours that also had an Exception TAG on their line the same time as me had theirs removed within 5 mins of his case handler getting involved, my case handler took a week or two to resolve it.

You really need to keep at them, and if still no joy I would make a complaint.

Even if Zen cannot get the TAG removed they certainly should be able to get the reason why the TAG is still there and what needs to happen to get it removed.

I was on the phone putting pressure on my case handler on a daily basis until it got resolve.


Have you tried contacting BTOR via Twitter?

I talk to them now and then.

Paul

If they have found a build issue it could take a while to resolve. Zen should do better to get an update though.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

If they have found a build issue it could take a while to resolve. Zen should do better to get an update though.

Exactly my point.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

Have you tried contacting BTOR via Twitter?

Did try this actually. Basically told they don't speak to end users and to chase this through my ISP.

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Have you tried contacting BTOR via Twitter?

Did try this actually. Basically told they don't speak to end users and to chase this through my ISP.

Really, they have spoken to me loads of times, granted you get a few that are unhelpful, but they normally are helpful that was why they setup their Twitter Account.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

Have you tried contacting BTOR via Twitter?

Did try this actually. Basically told they don't speak to end users and to chase this through my ISP.

Really, they have spoken to me loads of times, granted you get a few that are unhelpful, but they normally are helpful that was why they setup their Twitter Account

Paul

Tried again on twitter. Said they were sorry for the delay and advised me to have it escalated through my ISP

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

Tried again on twitter. Said they were sorry for the delay and advised me to have it escalated through my ISP

Ah, I have had that response before, Zen really needs to pull their finger out and do their job.

I would keep on at Zen to resolve the issue.

Paul

So we have now passed the 5 week mark. Got a bit more information from Zen. They have been working away behind the scenes emailing. Initial order was rejected so new order submitted back in week one. This has not progressed and has been escalated multiple times. Order was placed again this week and failed 'waiting for KCI-2' again. They have now placed the order manually (not entirely sure what the difference is) and it is showing as received but not committed. They are hoping for a committed date tomorrow. Only time will tell.

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

So we have now passed the 5 week mark. Got a bit more information from Zen. They have been working away behind the scenes emailing. Initial order was rejected so new order submitted back in week one. This has not progressed and has been escalated multiple times. Order was placed again this week and failed 'waiting for KCI-2' again. They have now placed the order manually (not entirely sure what the difference is) and it is showing as received but not committed. They are hoping for a committed date tomorrow. Only time will tell.

They didn't need to cancel the order, they could of kept it as an open order, when the order gets cancelled the fibre strand gets unallocated and you run the risk of them running out of fibres.

Thats why I had BT not cancel the order and keep it as open which they did.

As for the manual ordering I assume Zen have a simular team to BT's Offline Team which can do stuff the ordering team cannot.

But lets hope it all goes well

Paul

Ok so the manual order has gone through. I have an installation date for just less than 2 weeks from now. Excellent.
Now the slight issue remains that this is a 1 stage install and I'm not even close to being within 150m of the block on the pole. Do I just let the engineer turn up and discover this for himself? Will he already know this from the some sort of remote survey they have carried out?

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

Ok so the manual order has gone through. I have an installation date for just less than 2 weeks from now. Excellent.

That is good news.

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

Now the slight issue remains that this is a 1 stage install and I'm not even close to being within 150m of the block on the pole. Do I just let the engineer turn up and discover this for himself? Will he already know this from the some sort of remote survey they have carried out?

I am sure they already know the distance and will have a range of cable lengths, maybe they could join two lengths of cables to get the correct length.

You will find out within the first 10 or so mins of the engineer turning up if there is an issue or not.

But I am sure you will be fine.

Paul

I believe there is a new extended cable available for such installations.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

I believe there is a new extended cable available for such installations.

I thought their might be.

Paul

In reply to a post by witchunt:

I believe there is a new extended cable available for such installations.

Now that is good news!
Any further info on this??

I think there�s a 350m reel available, not seen one yet, tho� a colleague used one the other day, so they are about.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

I think there�s a 350m reel available, not seen one yet, tho� a colleague used one the other day, so they are about.

Well that's promising Google maps measures about 280m from pole to the front door. It's underground conduit the whole way from the 'manhole' at the foot of the pole to where the copper cable pops up from the floor to the NTE5 in the hall. If this is the cable with a copper pair along with the fibre can the engineer simply use the old cable to pull in the new?

Yep, should be do able...

When the engineer rings ahead it might be worth mentioning then about the longer length required, they will certainly have to go source it... the item may not directly available from the stores ...

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Yep, should be do able...

When the engineer rings ahead it might be worth mentioning then about the longer length required, they will certainly have to go source it... the item may not directly available from the stores ...

Good tip, I'll try to remember to do that.
It's unfortunate that I'll not be about for the install. Too short notice to get the morning off work. Will be relying on my wife to send me minute by minute updates on the day. I'd be very interested in watching how it all happens.

And so the saga continues.
Today was installation day. Given a morning appointment with engineer to arrive 8am-1pm. Rearranged the day, changed child care arrangements and wife at home to wait. 1pm came and went, no contact at all from engineer.
Contacted Zen who spoke to OR. Apparently engineer did head out but not to the house. Couldn't locate a fibre feed. Says CBT missing (it's at the end of the lane) or wrong one assigned. Has been passed to planning / survey team.
How hard would it have been for the engineer to make a courtesy call??
Anybody know what the time frames are for the survey / planning process??

Hmm ...

I know up my way there is a couple of jobs on hold as the longer reel required is currently on back order from the supplier ...

So it may be they spotted this issue already ?

All the same, someone really should have rung.

Yep. The lack of a simple phone call is the most annoying thing. Here's a bit more info...

'it would appear the equipment used on a 1 stage order known as a CBT is missing or the incorrect one has been assigned to your order which is why the engineer had difficulties'

Not quite sure what that means.

Connectorised block terminal.
It's what the end of the very long cable you need connects to.


Looks something like this here
Should be located on the telegraph pole your fibre drop wire will come from.

Edited by j0hn83 (Fri 01-Jun-18 02:41:23)

Yep. That bit I knew

It's the bit about it being missing I was confused about.

... maybe the CBT at the end of the lane you mentioned isn�t the one it has been routed too ?

That sounds about right. New email today to say that the issue with my order is that the CBT cannot be located.

Curious to know how this works. The fibre runs from pole to pole along the road with CBTs on the poles that are outside properties. The one at the end of the lane looks to have 8 ports. Are these in some way pre allocated or ring fenced for the houses they are beside? I assumed (probably incorrectly) that when I placed the order one of these would have been allocated to my order and the engineer simply came along and ran the cable from that port to where the ONT is. Maybe I have totally oversimplified the process in my head.

Pretty much just that, you order, the (hopefully, but not always) correct CBT is identified, and a port on that allocated....

This is confusing. Openreach / BTwholesale are saying there is no infrastructure to feed the property and that they cannot locate the CBT. ADSL checker still says 1 stage WBC FTTP available. I can see the CBT. Something isn't adding up.

Just had a visit for the survey engineer. Really nice guy. He had a look at the setup and is advising some new build work. He is advising a new CBT in the junction box in the lane to serve the 2 houses on the lane. The going to run my cable from there. Plans to dig down to the cable in the garden and place a new junction box in the lawn, run some new ducting along the garden and across the drive to the wall of the house. Then up the wall into the loft and eventually into my man cave.
This is a great option as it keeps everything out of the hall and will be very wife friendly.
He's fairly optimistic that they haven't been passing on excess build charges but can't promise it's not going to cost me. Hmmmm. Just need to wait and see.

Another quick update today. Email through with some excess construction charges, unfortunately. Total of £1350 but OR paying the first £1000 so £350 to cough up which seems not too bad. There is a mention of possible further charges when the work starts if something unforeseen pops up which is a worry. Guess I'll just see what happens

Just thought I would make a quick update to the order process. At this point I'm still not connected. Original order was placed at the start of April so past the 4 month mark!
I went ahead and paid my £350 for the work to be carried out. After a few weeks the contractors arrived on a day when I wasn't at home and the ducting was laid but not in the correct place. I raised this with my ISP who raised it with OR and the order was paused pending another survey. This took a few more weeks and it was agreed to have the ducting moved to the correct location. Somebody else called out today to place some yellow paint on the lawn and told my wife the work would be carried out today but unfortunately it didn't happen. I'm hopeful that tomorrow might be the day.

Once the ducting is finally in place it should just be a matter of an engineer visit to feed the new fibre along the duct and into the house.

For those in the know - At the survey we agreed to have the ONT in my upstairs office with fibre entering the house below the guttering, running through the loft and in through the wall of my office. Will the engineer be willing to go into the loft and pull the fibre along? It's a chalet bungalow so no ladders needed, just through a little upstairs door. Loft is fully floored. If not I can go in and do the loft bit.

Haven't seen your thread before as I am new here but a quick scan shows it's a very interesting read. In particular sounds good how they've assessed work to be done on the lane in order to get you connected (i.e. adding a new CBT etc). I wish BT/OR could have been that sensible and enterprising in my situation. Instead I just got a flat out computer says no and order cancelled. Seems illogical when there is clearly connectivity already on my lane and going past my house.

Anyway, I do hope you get it sorted soon! The thought of fibre to my man cave is a mere distant hope, ha ha.

Edited by deleted (Tue 21-Aug-18 23:41:36)

I�d say most will happily go into a boarded loft ... especially if there�s a decent loft ladder fitted ....

Having had customers �help� and break the fibre before, I prefer to do it �unaided�.

No ladder needed actually, just need to step through the little door upstairis. I have already passed a pull rope through a narrow bit to make things easier and last night I even removed a dead mouse

... oust the spiders too

Ok, installation day has finally arrived. I'm booked for an 8am - 1pm install so I've been up from 6.30am
I really hope this goes better than the no-show that happened last time.
24 weeks and 3 days since order placed, 1 failed install, survey, drive dug up in wrong place, drive repaired, second survey, drive dug up in right place, fingers crossed!!
Currently on 5mbps ADSL, hopefully 330mbps by this afteroon.

Fingers crossed for you .

Yeah, we had 3 vans (containing 5 engineers, inc a trainee) turn up when they did ours, they rang the bell at 8am, but they were out there about 10 to 20 mins before that.
So they can arrive early

Lets hope it all goes well and you are then downloading at 300 to 330 Mbps by this afternoon.

Paul

What a disaster!!!
Enginer arrived, nice guy. Had a look and we walked the path the cable needs to run from the house to the CBT while he measured it with his little wheel thing. Turns out the distance to the CBT from the house is about 350m. Would need another 15-20m in the house too. Much confusion and phone calls to his superior and other engineer. Basically told there are longer cables but nobody has ever actually seen one. Plus they are expensive. Job cannot go ahead and will be passed back to planning
I just can't get my head around this
Survey guy has been here twice. How can they not know the distance to the CBT?? Surely this is the whole point of a survey. How come the engineer was not briefed on the job before he arrived? Can I claim damages from Openreach for the stroke I'm about to have since by blood pressure is off the scale?
Back on to Zen. No engineer report yet, they can't do anything until this is logged so Monday at the earliest before I hear anything. I don't think I have ever been so frustrated and angry.
Does anyone have a address in Openreach I can email or writre to to vent my anger???

Sorry to hear about this

AFAIK 150m is the maximum connectorised cable length under normal conditions, they might instead decide to blow & splice the fibre to your home as there are no distance limitations when blowing the fibre. Though I'm not sure if its strictly connectorised FTTP installs these days or if they still blow fibre in certain cases.

Hope you get this resolved soon but the hassle will be worth it in the end

I think if you Google openreach ceo you will soon get an email address.

Utterly ridiculous.

How much time money and effort is this taking for Openreach due to sheer management inefficiency and chaos? Never mind Zen and most importantly you, the customer.

The only engineer error I can see is the relatively mild one of not telling you the first time one came and couldn't find the CBT. We don't even know why he couldn't.

An email to Clive Selley with a short summary of the past events like the date and one or two lines for each might get progress.

Maybe include my "Time money and expense" paragraph at the end?

In reply to a post by witchunt:

I think if you Google openreach ceo you will soon get an email address.

LOL . You posted while I was drafting my post.

Email in progress. I'm going to unleash my full Victor Meldrew!

Uh uh!

As I said, and the advice on that page, keep it short and simple for the CEO.

Possibly add the rant as a postscript so he can read it if he wants, as basically he will pass it to a team. The BT/OR CEOs have often read and even respond to emails but more often it is something like a "High Level Complaints" team member that replies. But they do take charge of the case and things happen.

160m .... 10m is 10m innit.

There are 350m ones, but tricky to get hold of.

Unlikely to mix the way service is provided, my guess would be an additional , closer CBT fitted and lit.

Completely agree Bob, ranting will help nothing.

Oh dear, sorry to hear that.

Email sent. It wasn't a mindless rant. I just explained the different stages, delays, my frustration and pointed out the waste and cost to Openreach. I'm sure I will never get a reply but felt a bit better afterwards.
Engineer seemed very nice but also very frustrated. He says he has been doing fibre installs for a year and estimates he has only compteted about 25% successfully on first go.
There certainly seems to be a serious lack of communication between the planning and engineering teams. I still can't quite figure out how the survey guy was here twice and the engineer seemed completely unprepared and had no idea about the distance he needed to cover. Surely he should have known at the first survey in June that they don't have a long enough cable??
The engineer did mention bringing a new CBT closer to the property. I dread to think what that might cost. I'm already £350 out of pocket so far with nothing to show apart from 2 repairs on the drive!

Agree as well, there is no point in going off, just need to keep calm and be polite but at the same time be firm and make your complaint.

Paul

25% at the first go ?

This is what happens when you move to a connectorised infrastructure, you can �dumb down� the workforce, don�t need to be able to splice, (cost saving) don�t need to understand the topology of the network, so cannot rectify on the day issues or more complex faults.

Yep, 25% is what he said. Wasn't an openreach guy. They seem to use KN Group for a lot of the fibre stuff here and that's who turned up. A couple of things struck me as strange -
1. He arrived with absolutely no prior knowledge of the job he was coming to. Is this normal? He mentioned that he often called a few days before to check out the job but decided not to this time. I assumed that having had a survey carried out they would know exactly what was to happen. He had no idea what was agreed inside the house, where the ducting was, where the junction boxes were or which actual pole my line dropped from.
2. He was really quite down on the guy that carried out the survey. He seemed to know who it was and said this is a common problem as he doesn't seem plan things from an engineers point of view. I'm not sure if this was just some sort of blame passing but he did seem genuinely irritated. In my the survey guy would have made detailed notes and passed these to the engineer.

This sort of thing much cost Openreach a fortune. When you figure in the 2 surveys (soon to be 3) 2 lots of contractors to do the ground work due to initial error. 2 engineers so far sent out but nothing achieved. Then add in the fact that I'm not connected after 6 months so that's lost return on the outlay of the original fibre roll out.

I hear Openreach is just rolling a project to have 100% of connectorised installs previsited by Openreach engineers, if UG then at least rodded and roped, but hopefully with the fibre pulled in, light checked at CBT ... if problems encountered, then there�s time to resolve before the actual install date. If OH, check for light on CBT
OH route checked as do-able, and length noted , possible problems noted, possible to arrange tree cutting and the like .....

but what this brings around in terms of ease of service, who knows .....

If they had stuck to the old two stage BFT installs, all this would have been picked up at stage one. Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

If they had stuck to the old two stage BFT installs, all this would have been picked up at stage one. Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

This is true, they detected the fibres were all in the wrong trays at our Splitter Node when they were here to do stage one, sure it was frustrating, but they were then aware of the issue, and a week or two later there were several engineers standing around another sitting down redoing all the fibres at the Splitter Node, so all was then good.

Paul

Just received a reply to me email to Clive Selley. Not from him directly but from the complaints CEO. Openreach have opened an excetutive complaint and have been in contact with my ISP. This sounds quite impressive so I hope things can get moving along.
See - the email wasn't just a rant!

Edited by deleted (Sat 29-Sep-18 20:49:22)

While this is very good news, it "could" still go either way, but at least there is communication between BTOR and your ISP, so they are aware of the issue now.

Also BTOR are very slow at removing Exception TAG's that are on the line / address, ours was there for a few weeks while neighbours had their TAG's removed a few days (if that) after the issue was resolved, but after more emails back and forth to the Chairman's Office and CEO of BT it was all resolved.

But yeah, you just need to be calm when communicating with BTOR / ISP but also be firm as well.

But I am sure it will be resolved soon.

Paul

To be honest I had forgotten about the exception part of all this (despite the title of the thread) as it was so long ago! It took 5-6 weeks to get it sorted and resulted in a new manual order. When I sent my email I only really relayed the problems with the stuff after the order went through.
What do you mean by go either way?

Edited by deleted (Sun 30-Sep-18 10:29:46)

Ooops, missed this reply, sorry.

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

To be honest I had forgotten about the exception part of all this (despite the title of the thread) as it was so long ago! It took 5-6 weeks to get it sorted and resulted in a new manual order. When I sent my email I only really relayed the problems with the stuff after the order went through.

Well as far as I am aware (I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong) anytime there is an issue a Exception TAG is put in place and the issue needs to be resolved before they will remove it and continue on until they get another issue where another TAG get added and so on.

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

What do you mean by go either way?

I mean, if there is too much of an issue getting it resolved they "might" say its no longer viable to be done.

They did the same down the bottom part of my road an the bottom side roads, where they installed all the FTTP hardware (which is all still there by the way) many years ago, but just didn't flick the switch, and last year they were given FTTC.

And when I asked I was told it was no longer viable to do so due to the cost of engineers (2 stage install) and the average package the people was asking for.

I can see their point, but at the same time surely fibre has a less maintenance cost than copper well for our area it should be due to engineers are always in my area working on the copper lines.

Paul

Another quick update. Apparently Openreach have opened a Director of Service Office case and assigned a case manager. All sounds very important!! We'll see what happens.

I see where you're coming from regarding the installation no longer being viable. I would not be surprised with this scenario or another big excess build charge. Just got to keep my fingers crossed I suppose.

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

Another quick update. Apparently Openreach have opened a Director of Service Office case and assigned a case manager. All sounds very important!! We'll see what happens.

If I recall they are called Case Handlers who will communicate between your ISP and BTOR's Case Handler (so I have been told), we had one with our issue, but mine was useless, one of my neighbours has his resolved in 5 mins while put on hold, mine took 2 to 3 weeks, also to remember we both used the same Splitter Node and Fibre DP and Manifold.

So some Case Handlers are not that good and just believe what they are told.

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

I see where you're coming from regarding the installation no longer being viable. I would not be surprised with this scenario or another big excess build charge. Just got to keep my fingers crossed I suppose.

Agreed, but I am sure it will be resolved.

Paul

The saga continues. Today is the 6 month anniversary of the day I placed the order!
There was a definite increase in communication from Openreach after the complaint and I was offered some dates for another engineer visit. Today was the chosen day. Unfortunately I got a call just before 5pm yesterday to say that Openreach had cancelled the visit. There's still no clear info on what they were planning to do but they did say they required access to the house which might indicate something more than just external works. At least it looks like the installation will go ahead but who knows when!!

Well I hope it all goes well.

Paul

OK so another update. Engineer came again today. Bit of a worrying start again as he measured out the distance again and pointed out that it was over 350m which we already know from previous attempts. Then pointed out longest reel is 350m and he didn't have any of those anyway. My heart sank!
Then he came good. Set off on 90 mile round trip to get the reel. Then brought in reinforcements to help with the job and also a jointer to sort out the joining of 2 lengths of fibre. Top marks!
All wired up with a solid green PON light on the ONT but no internet. Tried 2 routers but neither worked. Both configured correctly for PPPoE with the correct login details. He headed on saying it was all set up correctly from his end and that I needed to contact my ISP to sort it out.
Spoke to Zen who tell me that the order is still showing as not completed by Openreach and still at KCI-3. They have confirmed router setup is correct. Mentioned something about the engineer needed to hand over that the installation has been completed.
Any ideas where the issue is? Does it take while for things to update? Will it just come alive at some point this evening? Installation was completed around 3-4pm so not holding out too much hope for this evening.
So near and yet so far!!

That sounds somewhat suspicious to me ... there�s no way the engineer would have gone to all that effort (and well done him) and then not �closed� the installation task on his phone.

My bet is some hiccup between BT Wholesale and Zen.

Did you keep the engineers number ? Ring him tomorrow and ask if he �comped� his task .... (damn sure he did) then it�s time for you to force Zen to chase this up with BTw I reckon.

I suspect with all these delays their bit of the order has been delay/cancelled.

I'd be inclined to agree with you there. The engineer was great. I was at work all day but did get to chat to him before I left and he seemed to have the whole thing worked out within about half an hour. He was straight on the phone to get the second engineer and jointer arranged and then off he went for a 2 hour journey to get my cable.
I was getting updates via my wife while at work and the guy seemed puzzled when it wouldn't connect.
I assume the PON light just means that there is a confirmed connection between then ONT and exchange? At this point I assume I somehow get passed through the network and handed off to Zen at some point. I take it that's where the problem lies?

The issue is definitely with Zen and/or with their carrier (eg BT Wholesale). A solid PON light indicates the ONT has been registered on the Openreach network and is 'synced' with the OLT at the exchange - however the line hasn't been activated by the ISP yet. You will need to get in touch with Zen again and ask them to get a move on. But at least you're close to going live

Guess what....



On one hand I'm over the moon. After 192 days I'm finally connected. On the other hand the single thread speed isn't that great.
I can break the 300mbps barrier on other speed tests such as dsl reports which has 12 threads. I'm not sure what the normal pattern is for FTTP but the speed builds very gradually and only maxes out at the very end of the speed test. Here is my dslreports speed test.
There seems to be a thread on the Zen forums about single threaded performance. Is this something I should be concerned about?

First of all congratulations, glad to hear you got there in the end

If its any consolation, I also get lower than expected speedtest results on TBB:



Yet speedtest.net gives me the full 300 Mbps:

http://www.speedtest.net/result/7730724230

When I raised this with my ISP (Fluidone) they did real time NUT TCP testing on my line and they could easily see that I was getting the full 40 MB/s. That is the same i get when doing any kind of large downloads. I gave up a long time ago wondering why my speeds on the TBB tester don't quite match other speedtester results (probably something to do with the links from my ISP to TBB servers), however real life performance on my line suggests my line is performing to the max. Even the BT Wholesale tester is reporting max line speeds:

https://i.postimg.cc/D04WHH0T/BTW-test.jpg

By all means report this to your ISP (if possible get them to do nut tcp testing) but I would also do some independent tests, eg download test files from here.

Btw probably the most reliable speedtester I've come across is AAISP's, even for non-AAISP customers:
http://speedtest2.aa.net.uk/

Edited by deleted (Fri 19-Oct-18 19:01:51)

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

I can break the 300mbps barrier on other speed tests such as dsl reports which has 12 threads. I'm not sure what the normal pattern is for FTTP but the speed builds very gradually and only maxes out at the very end of the speed test.

Your latency of 37ms seems very high for FTTP - and higher latency does cause TCP to ramp up more slowly.

Are you on a direct wired connection to your router when running these tests?

Can you check the port status to see if the NICs are auto-negotiating to 1Gbps - both between PC and router, and between router and ONT? (if your router will show this)

Are you running Windows? Try booting your machine from a Ubuntu Live USB and doing the test with that. I've seen laptops which max out at 150Mbps when running Windows but can fill a full 1Gbps when running Linux.

Alternatively, if you know someone who has a Mac laptop with a gigabit ethernet adapter, ask them to come round and do a wired speedtest.

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

I can break the 300mbps barrier on other speed tests such as dsl reports which has 12 threads. I'm not sure what the normal pattern is for FTTP but the speed builds very gradually and only maxes out at the very end of the speed test.

Your latency of 37ms seems very high for FTTP - and higher latency does cause TCP to ramp up more slowly.

Are you on a direct wired connection to your router when running these tests?

Can you check the port status to see if the NICs are auto-negotiating to 1Gbps - both between PC and router, and between router and ONT? (if your router will show this)

Are you running Windows? Try booting your machine from a Ubuntu Live USB and doing the test with that. I've seen laptops which max out at 150Mbps when running Windows but can fill a full 1Gbps when running Linux.

Alternatively, if you know someone who has a Mac laptop with a gigabit ethernet adapter, ask them to come round and do a wired speedtest.

It depends on where they are, they might be far from London, or the TBB Servers.

I am about 8 or so miles from the London eye and I get the following:



But it says my latency is 21ms yet my BQM says its about 2 to 3 ms between me and TBB server, same when I ping google.com is 4ms and the bbc.co.uk is 2 to 3 ms.

I also get a latency of about 12ms from our dedicated rack server located in France, so not sure what is going on with the latency on the TBB Speed test, I think there has been posts about that topic.

A traceroute to the test server used:

tracert -4 speedtest7.thinkbroadband.com

Tracing route to speedtest7.thinkbroadband.com [80.249.106.133]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  Yazoo [192.168.2.253]
  2     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  172.16.10.194
  3     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  4     3 ms     4 ms     3 ms  31.55.186.180
  5     3 ms     3 ms     3 ms  195.99.127.106
  6     2 ms     2 ms     2 ms  peer8-et-0-1-3.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.252.98]
  7     2 ms     2 ms     2 ms  linx-gw2.thdo.ncuk.net [195.66.236.240]
  8     4 ms     3 ms     3 ms  po4-31.core-rs2.thdo.ncuk.net [80.249.97.85]
  9     2 ms     2 ms     2 ms  speedtest7.thinkbroadband.com [80.249.106.133]

Trace complete.

Which matches my BQM, so yeah a strange thing LOL

I am also not that far from Telehouse so that might help as well

Paul

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Btw probably the most reliable speedtester I've come across is AAISP's, even for non-AAISP customers:
http://speedtest2.aa.net.uk/

I thought I would give it a go and I got the following from it:

[Download]
315.06 Mbit/s

[Upload]
56.38 Mbit/s

[Ping]
8.57 ms

[Jitter]
2.62 ms

So its nice to have different places to do test so that we can compare results.

Paul

I am very glad you have finally got it all installed and its working.

Paul

Ran a few more tests. To be honest I ran a few earlier and couldn't remember what configuration I had. So the following tests have been carried out on my Macbook Pro directly connected to the ONT with a gigabit adapter and a direct PPPoE connection. So nothing else using the connection. Single thread speed on the site tester is still very low...



Like before I can get higher on the multi threaded speed tests but still not really getting max performance

DSL Reports

Ookla

I also tried some large file downloads as suggested. Tried the 1GB one from this site which peaked at 11.5 MB/sec but mostly sat about 9MB/sec so average 72mpbs with a peak aronnd 92mbps.

Like I said I'm very new to FTTP and maybe expecting too much but for what it's costing me I would prefer to get all I can from the connection.

I wonder if there is a possible single stream cap of 80Mbps or 100Mbps on Zen's service between NI and the mainland. Giving the effect of what would be congestion if present within the mainland.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 19-Oct-18 23:16:39)

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

I also tried some large file downloads as suggested. Tried the 1GB one from this site which peaked at 11.5 MB/sec but mostly sat about 9MB/sec so average 72mpbs with a peak aronnd 92mbps.

Like I said I'm very new to FTTP and maybe expecting too much but for what it's costing me I would prefer to get all I can from the connection.

I do recall getting 92Mbits at one point on our connection, but that was when the LAN Port was stuck in 100Mbit speed, I just rebooted everything, ONT + Router and all our switches here and all was good again.

Have you tried doing the tests the early hours like 3 to 5 am.

Paul

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Btw probably the most reliable speedtester I've come across is AAISP's, even for non-AAISP customers:
http://speedtest2.aa.net.uk/

I like the URL you get redirected to if you try http://speedtest.aa.net.uk/ instead!!

Up early this morning so ran a speed test about 7am. Getting better speeds on the TBB speed test but single thread still poor. I also thought the multi thread should be closer to the max of the connection. Definitely running at gigibit speed on the ethernet port.



Ran the other 2 speed tests again and got about the same, maybe a wee bit quicker on speedtest.net but notthing significant.

I fired off an email to Zen technical support this morning with links to my various speed tests. They have checked the line and apparently there are 'congestion issues'. At least there's a reason for the slow single thread speeds.
Apparently BT have marked the equipment handling my line as having capacity issues which is due to be loooked at. Zen are going to update me when they get further info.
This a a brand new FTTP roll out and only a very small number of the CBTs along the road have any connections which makes me think it's highly unlikely for there to be congestion on the GPON part of things. Is this an exchange issue or something further 'upstream'?
The fact that BT have identified the problem is good but I suppose it could take weeks / months / years to get it sorted. Not sure what adding extra capacity actually involves.
What constitutes a line failing to be 'as advertised' in FTTP terms??

I know they offer 100Mb guarantee with G.Fast, not sure if FTTP is the same I'm sure others will comment.

With a residential ISP there's absolutely no guarantee on single thread performance.

Hopefully an SV-LAN running hot at the exchange. Usually resolved in 48-72 hours if it's just a config change needed.

Occasionally the ISP will come back with a quote of weeks/months for a fix if specific upgrades are needed.

Edited by j0hn83 (Sat 20-Oct-18 16:46:18)

Are you on 330/30 or 330/50?

Openreach prioritised rate for these downstream are 40Mb and 110Mb respectively.

As you say however, the PON is new and likely few connected so it's unlikely to be PON congestion, but bear the above in mind.

Based on what they have said to you I'd imagine they are talking about a BT Wholesale SVLAN.
This might need a change to a different GEA Cablelink, or simply a logical change wholesale's side.
Alternatively if the support rep said "BT" out of hand and Zen are on net at your OHP, it may just be their own cablelink capacity.

I'm on the 330/50 product, interesting point on the prioritised rate. Is this an Openreach or a BT Retail thing?

Does sound like a Wholesale issue as the ISP have said 'Wholesale have marked the equipment handling your line as having capacity issues which is something due to be looked at.'

I have been trying to get my head around how the contention affects threads. Found another post on the form that explains it well and the 'good neighbour' system. If the network is capping streams around the 70-80mpbs mark then I can live with that I suppose. It's not going to have a huge impact apart from where I'm downloading a big file (which could be done about 4 times quicker) or streaming and even then 80mbps is more than enough for even 4K. I have seen it dip well below this though and xbox updates falling to the 20-30mbps mark which is really not acceptable.

'm on the 330/50 product, interesting point on the prioritised rate. Is this an Openreach or a BT Retail thing?

OpenReach.

I have seen it dip well below this though and xbox updates falling to the 20-30mbps mark which is really not acceptable.

Who do you plan on blaming for that one though? Many many many sites on the internet will not ever fill your line up. If Microsoft/Xbox are only pushing 30Mb to you then it doesn't matter how fast your line can go.

It might be easy enough to max out an FTTC line but when you start trying to pull 330Mb you will quickly notice many sites just don't push out anywhere near that.
Not all services are multi threaded either.

have been trying to get my head around how the contention affects threads. Found another post on the form that explains it well and the 'good neighbour' system. If the network is capping streams around the 70-80mpbs mark then I can live with that I suppose.

Out of interest where are you getting the 70-80Mb figure?
The chances of the local PON link being filled are very very low.
Every single 1 of the other 31 neighbours (32 including you) need to be maxing out 330Mb for you to drop that low because of them.
They don't all tends to take 330Mb. Many are happy with 40/55/80Mb products.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

'm on the 330/50 product, interesting point on the prioritised rate. Is this an Openreach or a BT Retail thing?

OpenReach.

I have seen it dip well below this though and xbox updates falling to the 20-30mbps mark which is really not acceptable.

Who do you plan on blaming for that one though? Many many many sites on the internet will not ever fill your line up. If Microsoft/Xbox are only pushing 30Mb to you then it doesn't matter how fast your line can go.

Its not Microsoft/Xbox due to I get the full 310/50 with them every time I download anything, its almost the same with Sony PSN where I get about 245 - 290Mbits.

But it all depends on what it is downloading, if its several thousands of very small files then yeah it will slow down, but that's not the connection but more to the hard drive the files are being written to.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

It might be easy enough to max out an FTTC line but when you start trying to pull 330Mb you will quickly notice many sites just don't push out anywhere near that.
Not all services are multi threaded either.

This I fully agree, I have seen a couple of sites not able to provide the full speed of my connection, but it might be capped their end.

Paul

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Out of interest where are you getting the 70-80Mb figure?
The chances of the local PON link being filled are very very low.
Every single 1 of the other 31 neighbours (32 including you) need to be maxing out 330Mb for you to drop that low because of them.
They don't all tends to take 330Mb. Many are happy with 40/55/80Mb products.

The 70-80 figure is the speed I am typically seeing when I download something. It's sometimes a bit more and sometimes a bit less. I'm not suggesting it's due to everyone on the PON maxing out their connection simultaneously which would be close to impossible since there are still very few connections locally. I understand that not every server on the internet is capable of saturating 330mbps and don't expect that to be the case. I am, however, seeing these speeds from servers that I would expect to be able to provide more. Examples are the large test file from this site and also from Microsoft - Paul has clarified that Xbox updates are quite capable of nearly maxing out the connection

Hi all and sorry for still going on about my speeds.
As I mentined there was reported to be some congestion but that has now been reported as clear. Unfortunately my speeds are still a bit of a mystery. I have been in continued contact with Zen support who have been very responsive. I'm still able to max out the connection on DSL reports speed test - got 317/50 this evening on a PPPoE connection to the ONT. TBB speed test has averaged around 250 on the 6x test and around 60-80 for single thread, but this will burst to 150+ for brief seconds.

Looking at Paul's test he's getting full speed on both tests from very early on. Mine seems to start with a decent speed then slowly decline. Could this still be a sign of congestion?

Edited by deleted (Mon 05-Nov-18 23:47:11)

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

TBB speed test has averaged around 250 on the 6x test and around 60-80 for single thread, but this will burst to 150+ for brief seconds.

Are you getting the same TBB results during daytime or in the middle of the night? If you are its unlikely to be congestion and something to do with the Zen's routing.

Edited by deleted (Tue 06-Nov-18 08:12:39)

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Are you getting the same TBB results during daytime or in the middle of the night? If you are its unlikely to be congestion and something to do with the Zen's routing.

Yep, speeds are the same pretty much any time. Haven't tried middle of the night but have run tests after midnight and before 7am on a Saturday morning

Edited by deleted (Tue 06-Nov-18 08:16:10)

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

In reply to a post by baby_frogmella:

Are you getting the same TBB results during daytime or in the middle of the night? If you are its unlikely to be congestion and something to do with the Zen's routing.

Yep, speeds are the same pretty much any time. Haven't tried middle of the night but have run tests after midnight and before 7am on a Saturday morning

In that case i would PM Zen's Senior Core Network Engineer, Jonathan Green (username: jongreen84) on these forums.

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

and around 60-80 for single thread, but this will burst to 150+ for brief seconds.

Looking at Paul's test he's getting full speed on both tests from very early on. Mine seems to start with a decent speed then slowly decline. Could this still be a sign of congestion?

I'm wondering if this could be at least partially caused by an incompatible MTU setting somewhere, perhaps being set too high or low at your PC or router respectively?

No doubt someone else will comment as to whether I'm barking up the wrong tree or not.

If single is low, then DSLreports is probably going to report higher as likely to be using a lot more than 8 downloads for the main test

Others do okay on Zen https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/15399894232...

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

If single is low, then DSLreports is probably going to report higher as likely to be using a lot more than 8 downloads for the main test

Others do okay on Zen https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/15399894232...

Yep. DSL reports is using about 32 threads in the download test and 16 up.

This might be a shot in the dark but could the fact that my installation required 2 of the connectorised cables to be spliced together have any impact? Would I be correct to assume that if the joint wasn't 100% then the ONT simply wouldn't sync and I'd get no service at all?

A total bum splice would give you no service, and the red LOS light lit on the ONT.

A duff splice would give a high light loss reading, and this might cause some intermittentcy in the service.

I doubt your suggestion is the cause of the speed issues you are seeing.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

A total bum splice would give you no service, and the red LOS light lit on the ONT.

A duff splice would give a high light loss reading, and this might cause some intermittentcy in the service.

I doubt your suggestion is the cause of the speed issues you are seeing.

Yeah, thought that would be the case. Really running out of ideas at this point!

So having spoken with Zen again they can't explain the results. I have run multiple speed tests to their test page where they can see the single thread speed but report that they can see burst speeds of nearly 200mbps on their end. This really doesn't translate into real world performance since the final result remains about 80mbps or lower.
They have advised that raising a fault with Wholesale would be difficult since they are unlikely to class this is a fault. In addition if they do accept it and send the engineer it would be a £198 bill if no problems are found.
Really don't know what to do at this point. Am I expecting too much?

In reply to a post by DrSteve:

So having spoken with Zen again they can't explain the results. I have run multiple speed tests to their test page where they can see the single thread speed but report that they can see burst speeds of nearly 200mbps on their end. This really doesn't translate into real world performance since the final result remains about 80mbps or lower.
They have advised that raising a fault with Wholesale would be difficult since they are unlikely to class this is a fault. In addition if they do accept it and send the engineer it would be a £198 bill if no problems are found.
Really don't know what to do at this point. Am I expecting too much?

Did you PM Jon Green as I suggested earlier? He will know what's going on with your line far more than Zen's phone support staff as he is a Senior Network Engineer at Zen.

On the other hand, is the TBB speedtest the only place where you get less than ideal single thread speedtests? If so and you're easily hitting ~40 MB/s in other downloads, then you really don't have anything to worry about. I would just put it down to a routing issue with Zen to TBB's servers. As I've said before, my 300 Mbps FTTP line also gives me strange TBB single thread results (often less than < 100 Mbps) and after comprehensive testing by my ISP, they found nothing wrong with my line. Virgin Media users also get similar behaviour on the TBB tester.

Considering all the hassle you went through in getting FTTP installed, it may be easier just to accept things as they are and move on if Zen have told you there's nothing more they can do.

Edited by deleted (Thu 08-Nov-18 12:16:57)

Hi.
Tried the Jon Green thing but he doesn't seem to accept PMs on the forum. I sent one to Ajays to see if he would pass on the message though.
Getting similar results on DSL reports. If I set it to 32 threads then I'm getting nearly 310 mbps. Single thread in the same ball park as TBB.
Downloads from the web similar - in and around the 10MB/sec mark. I have never seen anything approaching 40MB/sec. More like VDSL speeds on downloads.

In that case wait for a response from Ajays/jongreen84 as hopefully they will investigate further and give you a clear answer.

Edited by deleted (Thu 08-Nov-18 12:52:46)

Got in contact with Ajays who was very helpful. Contacted Wholesale directly and thing seem to have improved.