New all in one cabinet. Infill

We are about 3 miles from the exchange and until now about 1.5 - 2 miles from the cabinet that supplied us. (Cab 7 on Sandbach exchange). We have never been able to get fibre as we were too far from the cabinet and have suffered with <1mb broadband. Our village has been pushing our local rural broadband scheme for years and we were told that we should be sorted this summer.

At the beginning of June a new �all in one type cabinet� appeared in our village. It�s about 1.5 miles from the next nearest cabinet (which is the one we are served from). Last week guys with big reels of what looked like fibre did some work along the road that leads from Sandbach past the existing cabinet and into our village. Hopefully the fibre going in.

Today when I�ve come home I�ve noticed that 4 silver locks have appeared ( just little round key type ones). They form a large rectangle on the front of the cabinet. Is this a type of the silver lock people talk about going on cabinets when they are commissioned? There is also a little yellow sticker with a electrical symbol on it appeared. Does this mean the power & fibre are all there and the cabinet is ready to go?

I think from what I�ve read we need �live to live migration� to happen. So our lines are routed from the old cabinet to the new.

I know the new cabinet must be for our village to transfer over too as there are only about 100 houses and we are all currently attached to cabinet 7. There is no new buildings/ development in the area so the only point of it is infill I would assume.

How does live to live migration happen, any clue on timescales? Does it interrupt services?

Any help would be gratefully received

Edited by deleted (Sat 23-Jun-18 11:24:17)

Cabs ship with green locks these get replaced with the correct ones i.e. Openreach keys so if its locks rather then usually a good sign. The large rectangle description is confusing me.

If cabinet is where I suspect you mean no sign of it being live yet

The yellow sticker, suspect it comes with that attached already.

The big reels, if this was 1 inch diameter and black with a yellow stripe then it is fibre tubing and not the fibre and you are still waiting on the fibre to be blown down this.

Live to live timescales depends on operators and when they agree a date, a short interruption is all. Of course if you don't have FTTC now it will make no difference for you until you order a FTTC service.

Thanks so much for reply.

By The large rectangle description I just mean 4 little (1-2cm) round locks which are either side of the door gap top and bottom (you could join the dots to make a rectangle shape) The wide band that goes across the middle of the cabinet (and stands out) is still green.

okay that is the normal

Saw a lone openreach engineer at the cabinet today so I asked him for an update. He told me the fibre was there and he was installing it in the cabinet and all it needs now is power.

I�ve found roadworks planned for a weeks time which reads


SANDBACH - 465486 - DUCT OVERLAYS - Install 64M of new duct in CW/verge to power DSLAM as part of Connecting

So is this the power for cabinet. Are they likely to just do ducting or actually connect the power as well.

Likely ducting and then someone else to do power, i.e. needs to be done by right people

Hello

We�ve had conflicting information with an openreach engineer at the cabinet telling us fibre is there (and roadworks planned for power next week according to roadworks .org)

However someone has been told that there is a problem with blocked fibre ducts so there isn�t fibre to the cabinet yet. They said the cabinet with the fibre ducting problem is cabinet 39. Is there any way anyone can check if cab 39 is our new one as I�m sure when it first arrived to had a label on saying 38.

Post code for our cabinet is cw11 2TP

Until things are live very difficult to say a lot

It may be there is a cabinet due to appear close to CW11 4YE and another close to CW11 2TQ

That'll be 39. Cab 38 is about 1.5 miles away CW11 4SD

Hello

Our new cabinet has now been in situ for almost 6 months but we�ve still not got fibre.

My latest information from Connecting Cheshire ( this week) is that power is still not at the cabinet as Scottish power are having difficulty getting wayleaves to get it there - fair enough.

However there has been been openreach engineers at the cabinet every day for the past week ( often 2/3 vans). Neighbour have stopped and spoken to them and been told they are transferring the lines. When a neighbour mentioned we knew the cabinet was still awaiting power an engineer said that no the power was already there and pointed to a power light inside the cabinet on the left. The engineers seem to think it�s all now ready to go.

However when I�ve checked back with connecting Cheshire they say openreach are stating awaiting power waylesves with no anticipated date.

Any suggestions???
Thanks

Mains power? Or backup from the battery with the electronics sitting in a low power mode currently.

Connecting Cheshire will prob be wrong.
They won't be commissioning the cab without power.

From the cabinet being ready to go it can take weeks/months to perform the necessary live-to-live migration.

They need to coordinate a date with every ISP connected to the current FTTC cabinet that is being moved to the new FTTC cabinet.

Check the OpenReach site regularly it should update when power/fibre is connected.

Check the roadworks.org page regularly and check for any work at and around the cabinet.

Edited by j0hn83 (Wed 24-Oct-18 09:57:40)

Well over the last week both the bt dsl site and the openreach fibre when& where site state we are now connectied to cab 39 (the new cabinet). Openreach site says we are now awaiting power to the cabinet.

Does this mean live to live migration has happened?

I can see roadworks for 2 weeks time in the lane for openreach which look to be for ducting to the pole for overhead power.

Finally some neighbours suggesting that we definaty haven�t moved to new cabinet as speed has not improved. However my take on it that speed won�t improve because after all we are still the same distance (3 miles) from exchange all with copper. It�s just that the �middleman� (ie the cabinet)is now closer to us rather than closer to the exchange. Is this correct

The new cabinet will require power, and most likely some testing before being made live.

The live to live migrations won�t be started until the new cab in ready for service.

That�s what I had initially thought. But why do openreach and dsl checker now both show us fed by cab39 ( the new cab)

But the VDSL2 estimates have not changed yet have they?

Hi sorry don�t understand the vdsl estimates bit

Do you mean on the dsl page

It now says vdsl 32.2 high and 20 low and then at the end says planned

In reply to a post by AngS:

Finally some neighbours suggesting that we definaty haven�t moved to new cabinet as speed has not improved. However my take on it that speed won�t improve because after all we are still the same distance (3 miles) from exchange all with copper. It�s just that the �middleman� (ie the cabinet)is now closer to us rather than closer to the exchange. Is this correct

No, that's not correct.

The thing that determines the speed of FTTC is the copper loop distance from the cabinet* to the end-user. That's the whole point of FTTC: to move the electronics closer to the end-user.

The electronics in the cabinet get their data uplink by fibre, and the speed of that uplink does not depend on distance.

The exchange does not take part at all, except for providing the voice service (dialtone). And it's now possible to have SOGEA, where you don't even get that.

* I am assuming that your new "cabinet" is either a pair of cabinets (a PCP plus DSLAM cabinet), or an "all-in-one" which combines both roles. Either way, it contains DSLAM electronics. It would be pointless, in this day and age, for them to install a new passive cabinet without adding FTTC.

The cabinet with electronics will have plenty of ventilation slots in it, and should have a "danger - high voltage" sticker.

Your line is now physically passing through cab 39, but that's is all. The FTTC service is still coming from the original cabinet which is why nothing has changed as yet regards the broadband speeds.
Once the cabinet is fully connected and commissioning then the job of arranging the live to live migrations can start. Once they are done the speeds should be improved.

Still the same as I said previously. Particularly the bit in bold.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

From the cabinet being ready to go it can take weeks/months to perform the necessary live-to-live migration.

They need to coordinate a date with every ISP connected to the current FTTC cabinet that is being moved to the new FTTC cabinet

Only when the cabinet is ready can the live to live migration begin. It can take weeks/months from that point.

As Witchunt says you are physically running through cabinet 39 now, but fibre services are still coming from the further cabinet.

They will first move all customers receiving fibre from the old cabinet to new, then the cabinet will be open for orders.

john83

It may be that there are NO FTTC workers on the Cab due to the distance from the old Cab. In that case there will be no migrations to be done.

This is indicated be the fact the customers have all been moved to the new cab, whereas is there were FTTC workers to be moved this would be done first as otherwise their service would degrade to a point that it may be perceived to have failed.

Ok thanks. This is a new all in one infill cabinet.

Non of us get fibre at the moment just 1mb adsl. When I said had migration happened I meant moving the existing adsl lines that�s all as there is no existing fibre services to migrate.

I know once fibre is finally available at new cabinet then we will have to place orders to switch from adsl to fibre with our IsP

Edited by deleted (Sat 24-Nov-18 14:03:33)

I've no idea if there are existing FTTC subscribers who are being connected to this particular infill cabinet or if a live-to-live migraine is required.

With an AIO infill cabinet they can route the lines through it prior to the live-to-live migration though.
They don't take any orders until this is done so their is no VDSL2 signal generated at the AIO to interfere.
Any existing VDSL2 signal coming from the far away cabinet would pass through unaffected.

Wether OpenReach actually do things in this order I've no idea. It shouldn't degrade service though it's just another joint.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

Your line is now physically passing through cab 39, but that's is all. The FTTC service is still coming from the original cabinet which is why nothing has changed as yet regards the broadband speeds.
Once the cabinet is fully connected and commissioning then the job of arranging the live to live migrations can start. Once they are done the speeds should be improved.

I trust this to be accurate though.

Ok so once that says available you know the cabinet is live and people who have VDSL2 already have been migrated

In reply to a post by AngS:

Non of us get fibre at the moment just 1mb adsl. When I said had migration happened I meant moving the existing adsl lines that�s all as there is no existing fibre services to migrate.

There will be places closer to the new cabinet than yourself who will be migrated to it. They will have FTTC but much slower than they will after migration.

It will be those being organised that will be causing the delay. They need to be moved before your area is allowed to order FTTC from it.

In reply to a post by AngS:

Ok thanks. This is a new all in one infill cabinet.

Non of us get fibre at the moment just 1mb adsl. When I said had migration happened I meant moving the existing adsl lines that�s all as there is no existing fibre services to migrate.

I know once fibre is finally available at new cabinet then we will have to place orders to switch from adsl to fibre with our IsP

If you currently can�t get FTTC then it�s a completely different situation. The lines have probably been diverted into the new cabinet already, and this usually causes faults when it happens which may account for the large number of engineers you�ve seen recently.

The routing at Openreach�s end for your line may have already been updated. Currently your one might shoe on the system as going through both the old cabinet and the new cabinet. That�s what usually happens.

In your case there�s no migration, as soon as the new fibre cabinet goes live you can order service from it. Worth checking nearby roads every couple of weeks to see if those houses can order it.

I�ve come across a situation recently where 20 lines were not routed through the new infill cabinet and no one realises for over a year and it�s onlt just being corrected.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by AngS:

Non of us get fibre at the moment just 1mb adsl. When I said had migration happened I meant moving the existing adsl lines that�s all as there is no existing fibre services to migrate.

There will be places closer to the new cabinet than yourself who will be migrated to it. They will have FTTC but much slower than they will after migration.

It will be those being organised that will be causing the delay. They need to be moved before your area is allowed to order FTTC from it.

Might be the case that no one connected to the new cabinet could currently order FTTC from the distant cabinet, that�s what he�s saying anyway.

Edited by deleted (Mon 26-Nov-18 18:46:07)

It would be good to hear from anybody in this post on how things are now.

I have been through a similar procedure and am connected to an infill cab and although my sync speeds are 80/20 my throughput is in the 50/60 range.

Numerous OR engineers and good support from my ISP have not been able to solve the problem.

I have spoken to 6 of my near neighbours who are with a range of ISP's and all have the same issue and those with Sky have been told they cannot be upgraded to 80/20 because of network issues.

Is the Dslam very different from a regular Huawei 128 port cabinet equipment, if not why do they not use a regular unit, there would appear to be plenty of space to accommodate the extra punch blocks for the PCP side of things ?

Is it connected to the backhaul in a different way ?


Help !.

The DSLAM in All In One cabinets is 100% identical to that in the smaller Huawei cabinets.

They aren't connected to the network any different.

The only difference is the big green shell covering it.

your isp will be the problem if its a throughput issue.

Could it not be a backhaul issue from the AIO to the exchange, maybe they need to add more capacity there too? You would think they would have software that points this out to them, but humans are humans so maybe Homer Simpsons at the console.

Congestion on the backhaul would show as throughput being lower at peak times and higher off-peak, not a consistently low value.

A 128 port DSLAM is unlikely to max out a single gigabit backhaul at all let alone 24x7.

If throughput is consistently poor, it could also be:

- underpowered CPE router
- problem with the endpoint that the user is testing from (e.g. some antivirus programs can completely hammer the available throughput).
- user testing over wireless instead of wired
- bad CAT5 cable, or ethernet running at 100Mbps half duplex
- wrong BRAS profile has been applied (could show as higher throughput for first second or so before dropping down)

Thanks for the replies gary333/CarlITspeak

Throughput is very very constant (low), only some 45/50 users on the cab, connection, cabling, router and computer all swopped out and testing by OR engineers using their laptops with Router at master socket also Lift and shift between line cards, VLAN changed twice.

Candlerb, BRAS profile, is that unique to each user or to the cabinet ?.

KBD tests show Profile Name 0.128M-80M Downstream 5dB, Retransmission High - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

Epyon, The problem with the thought that the throughput issue is down to my ISP does not explain 6 neighbours on 5 different ISP's all with slow throughput, to much of a coincidence.

I visited one of the Sky users and rang Sky support, the agent said BTW have told them nobody on this post code can have 80/20.

There is some confusion in comments from OR engineers as to which way around but, two of them have rung their level two help desk and when the central test head is ( removed or connected ) the throughput is 76Mb demonstrated by the engineer using a couple of well known speed testers.

Within 1-2 hours it's back to the mid 50's, and similar occurs if the engineer resets the DLM but the short term improvements are not as good.

The common denominator is the Dslam/cabinet and/or the way it is connected to the backhaul.

Is the fibre from the infill cabinet usually connected back to it's parent and does it share it's connection ?.

Kitz say infill cabinets are rare beasts and hearing from any of the users above about their throughput now might be a great help !.

Other than getting OR out what is your ISP saying when you raise the issue of throughput with them?

Edit: Also what are the speed predictions from the DSL checker for your property

Edit: Also if BTW say no one can have 80/20 what service are you actually on?

Edited by deleted (Sun 22-Dec-19 15:17:50)

rang Sky support, the agent said BTW have told them nobody on this post code can have 80/20.

I suspect that this is down to Sky not being aware that you are on a new infill AIO rather than a more distant cab? Your sync speeds tells us that Sky support are incorrect.

In reply to a post by lmschuffer:

Kitz say infill cabinets are rare beasts and hearing from any of the users above about their throughput now might be a great help !.

We were on Embleton (NEEN) cabinet 1 which is over a mile away and getting 14Mbps down when FTTC was first made available. AIO infill Cabinet 5 was installed two or three years ago about 250m. from our address. Originally sync'd at 79999 and downloading at about 74/75 Mbps. Now seeing the effects of greater usage and cross-talk. We've been sync'd as low as 73013 and are currently back at 79999 after a cabinet problem (so we must have been one of the first to regain connection). SNR is currently 2.7 - 2.8 dB so a re-sync and a drop in the sync speed would not surprise me. Connection is now set to retransmission high and we are seeing about 66Mbps download when averaged across a number of testers.

The common denominator is the Dslam/cabinet and/or the way it is connected to the backhaul.

The common denominator could also be the exchange.

There is nothing special about All In One cabinets except the green shell covering it.

Is the fibre from the infill cabinet usually connected back to it's parent and does it share it's connection ?.

No. It has its own link like any other cabinet.

Kitz say infill cabinets are rare beasts and hearing from any of the users above about their throughput now might be a great help !.

Kitz said that about 5 years ago before infilling became more common.
There are probably thousands of AIO cabinets on the network now.

Your AIO cabinet is very unlikely to be a bottleneck. Especially with 45/50 users on it.
They do up to 128 ports as standard but this can be doubled to 256 ports/users with no capacity issues.

I visited one of the Sky users and rang Sky support, the agent said BTW have told them nobody on this post code can have 80/20.

Wow. Utter nonsense.

Sky don't buy from, order from, or use BTw at all for FTTC.
It's OpenReach who are responsible for the FTTC cabinets.

Only ISP's who use BTw backhaul would get messages like that about capacity but Sky don't use BTw.
BTw play zero part in Sky FTTC.

If you provide the cabinet number and exchange then it's easy to check if 80/20 is blocked from being ordered in seconds.

Edited by j0hn83 (Sun 22-Dec-19 17:15:48)

dect.
My ISP has, and is, very cooperative and I have a dedicated agent.
I have had some 15 + OR engineers visits.
DSL checker 80/20
From KDB is says 80/20 profile
Router log today shows
Data rate: 20.00 Mbps / 80.00 Mbps
Maximum data rate: 26928 / 93048 nothing wrong with my copper.
Noise margin: 15.5 dB / 8.1 dB
Line attenuation: 8.3 dB
Signal attenuation: 0 dB / 8.3 dB
Copper length 170 Mtrs

Much has been done by OR in an attempt to solve the issue, at the original cabinet bypassing the copper links between the PCP and VDSL, also removing the old ADSL links in the exchange.

Best we can tell, the comment in the KDB test saying error correction is off means vectoring is not employed, I have asked most of the visiting engineers if vectoring is on but they have no way of checking, my question would be if crosstalk reduction is effective and is available why would you not use it ?

It's very clear that the way infill's are commissioned is very different and as they are rare beasts most engineers have no experience of them and the way they are connected, see comments from AngS above about a period of being connected to both cabinets at the same time, which also happened to me.

MCM
The very point I made to the agent.
The other sky user got an email a while back ( maybe 12 + months ) saying they were going to upgrade him from 40/10 to 80/20 at no extra charge.
Some months later another email saying, sorry can't upgrade you as we promised due to network issues.
Looks like they were aware a new cab was available as the original cabinet is to far away to get more than 15/16 Mb so they would not have made the offer.

GonePostal
Thanks for this, what this confirms for me is that A10 infill's are most certainly capable of 80/20 and do not suffer any inherent issues.
At 14 Mb on a good day from the old cabinet clearly 50Mb is for me a big improvement and my ISP said I should get a guaranteed minimum of 70 so I still have a way to go, but, it never feels that fast, ever, I have to run an add blocker otherwise I'm waiting ages for a internet page to load whilst it gets the adds.

The BTW speed tester use to have a further diagnostics button which enabled you to see your IPprofile but it has now been removed, which might point to BRAS issues, having said that I have been unable to run that for ages, always got a error writing to server.

There is some confusion in comments from OR engineers as to which way around but, two of them have rung their level two help desk and when the central test head is ( removed or connected ) the throughput is 76Mb demonstrated by the engineer using a couple of well known speed testers.

That sounds to me like what you have is slow throughput speeds. The level two support can get on the connection and have it run to test access rather than through to the specific ISP .... if this then gets good speeds, you can be 99.9% sure the issue is at or inside the ISP network.

Zarjaz
But that is not how the test I described was done, either the central test head was connected or disconnected with level two help and the OR engineer using his laptop used two sites.

Speedtest.net and broadbandspeedchecker.co.uk

My connection via my ISP would need to be intact for these test to be carried out.

The test you describe by disconnecting me from the ISP equipment has also been done, the first one showed 76Mb and the second a few weeks later showed 55Mb.

In reply to a post by lmschuffer:

I have asked most of the visiting engineers if vectoring is on

I thought only a small number of Huawei cabinets had vectoring enabled and they were BDUK funded cabinets where OR were throwing the kitchen sink at it to reach the required minimum speed to be compliant. I may be out of date so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.