Four Missed FTTC Activations by Openreach and counting....

Wonder if anyone can help me with an order that has been messed around by Openreach for pretty much whole of August and if they can give me any pointers

3rd August - Activation Date
- Activation date missed, lack of engineer according to Openreach

10th August - Second Activation Date
- Second activation date missed due to issue with locks on cabinet

17th August - Third Activation Date
- Openreach claimed AM that fault between exchange and cabinet prevented work

18th August
- Openreach close fault between exchange and cabinet saying no fault found.
- Openreach open fault between cabinet and property, staing underground cabling fault to be fixed on 20th Aug.

20th August
- Sky inform me that Openreach have ran into a delay and it won't be done until 24th August

24th August
- Sky confirm that Openreach have given a go-live date of 26th August which they assure will not be missed.

26th August - Fourth Activation Date Missed./
- Engineer calls to say he's switched me over to FTTC and if it doesn't work now to call my ISP
- I wasn't disconnected and am still on ADSL2+ and not FTTC and still on G992 modulation.
- Sky confirm that Openreach haven't done the work but they don't know why as no update is issued and wonder if he has done the work to the right line.

At this stage that's four activation dates that Openreach have missed and a lot of time on the phone discussing this matter. I do not know if the engineer was dishonest earlier or just plain incompetent, but it looks pretty certain that he didn't switch the line at all.

This [censored] has been going on the whole month now, and is starting to get rather tiresome, especially when two doors down ordered BT Fibre 10 days after me and were activated in super quick time without any issues....

Edited by deleted (Wed 26-Aug-20 20:29:05)

Email complaint to Clive Selley. Address can be found easily on google.

A wacky thought, but have you checked that VDSL2 is ticked in your router settings?

Edited by RobertoS (Thu 27-Aug-20 10:55:16)

No option on a Sky Hub but it's compatiable and firmware is up to date. Shows the router as connecting to G992.5 which is ADSL2+ rather than G993 which I believe is VDSL2?

Openreach still maintain nobody called me yesterday and I've essentially being accused of lying. They say they will get back with an update by 5pm on Friday, which convinently then gets them off the hook until at least next Tuesday.

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Aug-20 11:57:26)

Might have to soon - it's becoming a joke.

If it had all be done correctly you would have lost your ADSL2+ connection when the changeover was done, so something is amiss.
If you want rapid resolution then the email is the best bet.

Latest from Openreach following an intervention is that the routing is wrong and they are "working hard" on fixing it whatever that means. Honestly it sounds like they're not working very hard at all. So I don't hold much hope of it being resolved soon.

The other thing is that when the 17th date was missed, they claim it was because the engineer was not trained to resolve underground cabling fault related to routing so it had to be resolved by someone else and seemingly it was, hence the next activation date being given.

Why then does someone rock up at the cabinet 9 days later and say that there is a routing issue? Couldn't that have been spotted when the fault was looked into initially before the activation date was re-ordered?

And honestly, for a line that has been stable for many many years, with low line noise, getting the highest upload and download sync rates possible on ADSL2+ it's a surprise they keep thinking it has so many 'faults' all of which cause absolutely no issues to the customer.....

Also it seems I can't trust Sky fully either as it seems they gave me duff information and the first date and maybe second missed may have been their fault as well, but still that doesn't change what happened after being down to Openreach.

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Aug-20 18:13:50)

I wouldn't spend too much time emailing Openreach directly, your contract is with Sky and they are the only ones who are in a position to be able to do things like offer compensation for missed installation targets etc.

In reply to a post by jpm:

I wouldn't spend too much time emailing Openreach directly, your contract is with Sky and they are the only ones who are in a position to be able to do things like offer compensation for missed installation targets etc.

My focus isn't really getting compensation, it is more of getting the issue resolved. The odd few quid there is of lesser importance in the grand scheme of things.

If there is a routing issue then at the end of the day Openreach are going to need to fix it. Yes I'm not their customer but it is a problem that they have created by the way the circuits are routed.

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Aug-20 18:35:37)

Have you actually rebooted the modem router.. It should in theory it would have rebooted after the work from adsl to vdsl but you are saying its still on adsl. I'm just wondering if the modem is stuck on a stale connection.

In reply to a post by Taras:

Have you actually rebooted the modem router.. It should in theory it would have rebooted after the work from adsl to vdsl but you are saying its still on adsl. I'm just wondering if the modem is stuck on a stale connection.

Yes, it's still connecting to ADSL2+ despite the reboot that was done yesterday.

If you read above, you will see that Openreach have confirmed I am still on ADSL2+ due to a routing issue that they claim that they are 'working hard' to fix, whatever that means in terms of an ETA.

justin i assume you had a self install rather than a managed install

In reply to a post by Justin:

In reply to a post by Taras:

Have you actually rebooted the modem router.. It should in theory it would have rebooted after the work from adsl to vdsl but you are saying its still on adsl. I'm just wondering if the modem is stuck on a stale connection.

Yes, it's still connecting to ADSL2+ despite the reboot that was done yesterday.

If you read above, you will see that Openreach have confirmed I am still on ADSL2+ due to a routing issue that they claim that they are 'working hard' to fix, whatever that means in terms of an ETA.

yes i had, I also realised you are frustrated, as anyone else would be with that amount of issues; the way you have described it shows that frustration. As sky and OR are in a tangle in sorting this out i just wanted to make sure there had a reboot on the router.

you said this

26th August - Fourth Activation Date Missed./
- Engineer calls to say he's switched me over to FTTC and if it doesn't work now to call my ISP
- I wasn't disconnected and am still on ADSL2+ and not FTTC and still on G992 modulation.
- Sky confirm that Openreach haven't done the work but they don't know why as no update is issued and wonder if he has done the work to the right line.

What is now happening, forgetting the previous attempts and what you have seen out and about. What is sky/or doing next?

27th August AM
- Speak to Sky, Openreach claimed that the appointment was missed by adding notes to that effect.

27th August PM
- I am informed that Openreach has found a routing issue, which is why the engineer hasn't been able to complete the work. They have stated that they will work 'very hard' to resolve this and will update Sky when there is any more information.

My issue is, working 'very hard' is all very well and good but it's not particularly helpful as to what I am supposed to expect in terms of timeframe. They could genuinely be working very hard on the matter, but they could also be fobbing me off by using such vague and noncommittal terms.

Sky have said to me there is nothing more that they can do as they are waiting for Openreach to fix the issue with the routing. When I have spoken to Sky the common trend I'm seeing among reps is that there is a delay from Openreach doing things and then updating the notes (at least a day after, sometimes more) and also one rep told me that the notes being provided from Openreach are quite light on detail which hasn't really helped Sky work on this matter with Openreach.

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Aug-20 19:56:06)

Yes and the line is currently

Sync:
19780 Downstream
1338 Upstream

Attenuation
19.8db downstream
13.3db upstream

Attenuation was actually lower than that prior to this all starting, but they are still very good line stats, despite the fact originally I was told there was an underground line fault by Sky which apparently was the reason for the delay on 17th August.

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Aug-20 20:50:59)

What exchange and cab are you on? Routing issues can happen, but typically it wouldn't affect one property, one line or two lines scrambled is easy to detect and resolve.. I'm wondering if this is an all in one cab or some other cable re-routing.

Exchange EAHAS which is 0.5km away from me and cabinet number 1 which is literally 60 seconds walk away from the front door.

The cabinet was expanded in March by adding a second cabinet next to the original one. Makes me wonder if that might be part of the problem.

There's another cabinet over the road from it, but that's not for broadband, apparently it's for something else.

You can see it here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/3+Bridge+St,+Had...

The Openreach cabinet on the left has been joined by a second one since that image was taken.

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Aug-20 20:36:01)

With regards to the cabinets. The one with the grille on front is the FTTC cabinet and the one without grilles and three manhole covers in front of it is the PCP.

I assume that your upstream speed figure is a typo and you need to get your units right. What is 19.8b downstream? Is it Mbps. Even a tenth of your upstream figure i.e.1.383 Mbps would be pushing the limit for ADSL2+
I don't think there is any fault on your copper line with those speeds.

Edited by Realalemadrid (Thu 27-Aug-20 20:49:00)

In reply to a post by gary333:

With regards to the cabinets. The one with the grille on front is the FTTC cabinet and the one without grilles and three manhole covers in front of it is the PCP.

I thought it probably was. There's a second FTTC cabinet there now next to the existing one. Second one was added in March 2020.

There's another cabinet over the road from it, but that's not for broadband, apparently it's for something else.

The double door cabinet with no vents is the PCP.
This is where all the telephone lines from customers homes meet the lines coming from the exchange.

The vented single door cabinet opposite is the fibre cabinet.
The 2nd cabinet that's been installed is also a fibre cabinet. It also has vents, though smaller than the original.

The 2 fibre cabinets are joined to the PCP via copper tie cables. You can see the tarmac line crossing the road between the 2 cabinets.

The engineer doesn't touch the fibre cabinets.
He connects your line to 1 of those copper tie cables inside the PCP.
That tie cable then runs underground to a port on the fibre cabinet.

Hopefully you will be connected to the new fibre cabinet.
The old fibre cabinet shown in the Google Street view image is an ECI Telecom fibre cabinet and they are inferior to the newer cabinet which will be a Huawei cabinet.

Despite all the political scaremongering you see on the news about Huawei they make excellent telecoms kit and the fibre DSLAM's are perfectly safe.
They are on the edge of the network and can't see any of your data.

Typo from a phone.

Sync:
19780 Downstream
1338 Upstream

Attenuation
19.8db downstream
13.3db upstream

As you say they are excellent line stats, which makes me very perplexed about the original underground line fault which they claimed to have found. The connection has been stable for 6 years. Rock solid.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

The 2 fibre cabinets are joined to the PCP via copper tie cables. You can see the tarmac line crossing the road between the 2 cabinets.

The engineer doesn't touch the fibre cabinets.
He connects your line to 1 of those copper tie cables inside the PCP.
That tie cable then runs underground to a port on the fibre cabinet.

Hopefully you will be connected to the new fibre cabinet.

So if it's as simple as that, what kind of routing issue could it be that doesn't allow things to be connected up to Fibre? Is it possible that the line is actually going to a different PCP cabinet, and if so, why can they not just connect it from the PCP that's there to the associated fibre cabinet?

I'm just having difficulty seeing what the problem is that Openreach have with routing and how this kind of thing gets fixed and how long that generally takes.

When Openreach say it's an underground line fault. I wonder if they could mean on some of the copper ties from the PCP to the FTTC cabinet. Could the engineer have swapped the ties in the PCP from one to another but still happened across a faulty one. Maybe when rodding cables through for the new cabinet they could have damaged the existing wiring.

I don't know if this is any of this is possible, so hopefully one of the resident experts can shed some light , but logically (and only from a layman point of view) seems like this could end up with the outcome you have.

Edited by gary333 (Thu 27-Aug-20 21:00:17)

In reply to a post by gary333:

When Openreach say it's an underground line fault. I wonder if they could mean on some of the copper ties from the PCP to the FTTC cabinet. Could the engineer have swapped the ties in the PCP from one to another but still happened across a faulty one. Maybe when rodding cables through for the new cabinet they could have damaged the existing wiring.

I don't know if this is any of this is possible, so hopefully one of the resident experts can shed some light , but logically (and only from a layman point of view) seems like this could end up with the outcome you have.

Well the 17th August failed activation was apparently because there was an underground cabling / line fault and the engineer wasn't trained to fix it. Apparently that was later resolved and Sky were asked to re-book the order.

Sky re-booked the order for yesterday and now there's no mention of an underground line fault and all they've been able to get out of Openreach thus far is it's a 'routing issue' they are working 'very hard' to fix.

If they added a second cabinet, there may have been routing issues on that second cab, and as you would be on that second cab, that is likely to be the issue, others would be affected.

What does https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL give - is the fttc portion says available or on waiting list ?

In reply to a post by Taras:

If they added a second cabinet, there may have been routing issues on that second cab, and as you would be on that second cab, that is likely to be the issue, others would be affected.

What does https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL give - is the fttc portion says available or on waiting list ?

Second cabinet was added in March, according to Codelook.

There's not been a waiting list all throughout the process as I've checked the BT Wholesale checker at least once a week every week and also before the order was made.

Stats here:
https://postimg.cc/ppsm1r71

I know this isn't going to be what you want to hear. But It does sounds as if OR's response to sky is accurate but vague.. It is now up to sky (nobody else) to chase this up and either suggest you re-order at a later date once sky has been given the all clear or to continue with the order but it being delayed till the vdsl service is up and running.

Basically ask them, what time frame? what can they offer you if its delayed by a month or two ? Also if it was an offer will they honor that when the service is available.

The routing issues appears to simply be they have picked the incorrect line in the cabinet.
They've might have connected someone else's line instead of yours.

The fact the engineer told you he connected you and your ADSL remained active supports this as it would have disconnected your ADSL immediately.

The only other routing issue I can think of would be the tie cable going to the wrong port on the fibre cabinet.
If they had done this to your line you would be without any internet service.

In reply to a post by Taras:

I know this isn't going to be what you want to hear. But It does sounds as if OR's response to sky is accurate but vague.. It is now up to sky (nobody else) to chase this up and either suggest you re-order at a later date once sky has been given the all clear or to continue with the order but it being delayed till the vdsl service is up and running.

Basically ask them, what time frame? what can they offer you if its delayed by a month or two ? Also if it was an offer will they honor that when the service is available.

I have had a call from Sky tonight now saying that it has been escalated to their 'Customer Priority Team' who will now be managing the issue rather than customer care. From what I gather they are an escalations team who deal with complex issues or high level complaints, so hopefully that will help.

In my discussions from Sky it has indeed been implied that OR have not really been big on specifics and they have been short on details and quite vague, often giving updates late and obviously that hasn't helped things. Of course,I can't see what Sky see either so it could be the way the person in CS is interpreting it as well.

I've agreed with Sky we'll reconvene on Tuesday and discuss it again if nothing happens before then. In the meantime Sky are to ask OR for an update. I don't think either of us are impressed with this 'working on it very hard' comment from Openreach, because it's just exceptionally vague.

Edited by deleted (Thu 27-Aug-20 22:36:18)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

The routing issues appears to simply be they have picked the incorrect line in the cabinet.
They've might have connected someone else's line instead of yours.

The fact the engineer told you he connected you and your ADSL remained active supports this as it would have disconnected your ADSL immediately.

The only other routing issue I can think of would be the tie cable going to the wrong port on the fibre cabinet.
If they had done this to your line you would be without any internet service.

On the failed visit on the 17th where the underground cabling / line fault was detected I actually did lose sync, so it seems that they got the right line then, they just were not able to complete the work.

However what you say sounds pretty plausible about the 26th and this kind of scenario being a possibility has been put to Openreach who have only confirmed that there is a routing issue that they are working 'very hard' to resolved and are not directly commenting on this particular theory. It's this vagueness which is making it harder to pinpoint what exactly the issue is.

The other question is though is if what you say is correct how come the engineer on 17th could seemingly find the right line but the guy on the 26th couldn't find it? Mistake by the engineer on 26th? Or perhaps the fix that was applied to the underground cabling issue has also played a factor in the 26th?

Either way it doesn't sound like it should be a complicated thing to fix if it is as you say, it just needs someone to go down and connect the right line, so I'm not sure why they need to work 'very hard' on it.

Issues with tie pairs between VDSL2 cab and PCP (standard cab) seem a likely explanation and will not impact ADSL/ADSl2+ since that does not go via the VDSL2 cabinet yet.

This is what I think has happened, feel free to disagree.
PCP 1 EAHAS was a copper rearrangement. I suspects that the OPs line was supposed to have been diverted but has been missed, meaning the records are incorrect and it does not currently go through PCP1 (E/O). This will need a skilled engineer to divert the pair in the cabinet box to correct the routing. This should resolve the issue.

In reply to a post by witchunt:

This is what I think has happened, feel free to disagree.
PCP 1 EAHAS was a copper rearrangement. I suspects that the OPs line was supposed to have been diverted but has been missed, meaning the records are incorrect and it does not currently go through PCP1 (E/O). This will need a skilled engineer to divert the pair in the cabinet box to correct the routing. This should resolve the issue.

Also i suspect its not just his line that got incorrectly routed!

Do you have any idea how long this kind of thing should take in reality? Days, Weeks, Months?

I know you're going to say that Sky should ask Openreach, which they have, who will still only say that they are 'working very hard' to resolve the routing issue, which doesn't really give me any idea of what to expect.

The other question is if it is not going through PCP1 then is it possibly going through a PCP further away and I am likely to impact what speeds I can get on FTTC? I just noticed on Codelook that some of my postcode is showing as being on cabinet 15.

Edited by deleted (Fri 28-Aug-20 15:00:28)

So, I've had an update from Sky and once again it's a merry-go-round with Openreach.

Due to an issue with some systems, Openreach had to close the order down so have asked Sky to resubmit the order tonight and then they will shortly afterwards start the planning work for resolving the issue under the new request.

According to Openreach, they cannot start doing the planning work until the new order is in, which just stinks of playing for time. Does anyone else have any experience with this kind of thing?

Email the CEO.

I'm literally drafting something up about it now, not going to send it yet but just getting it all together.

Perhaps there is some complex work to be done but we're just not getting anywhere very fast. Is it impossible for Openreach to just keep the one order open and keep progressing on it? Sky have been advised several times now to resubmit the order and it just feels like a vicious circle at this point.

if it is a routing issue the kepping the current order open wont help - it need to be fixed and then reordered then it will get ordeded to the right route

if that is the reason

bit odd frankly

Sky should be managing the job with Openreach on your behalf and ensuring updates are received in a timely fashion, pushing back where necessary. This is how every other provider functions - they don't expect you to have to engage Openreach directly.

Is there any reason why you wish to go with Sky?.. The problem with the order is delt with by the isp and not you. OR won't complete things unless they are chased, and sky aint doin that.

In reply to a post by Fastman3:

if it is a routing issue the kepping the current order open wont help - it need to be fixed and then reordered then it will get ordeded to the right route

if that is the reason

bit odd frankly

The thing is that someone at Sky in their Customer Priority team read out the Openreach notes and literally it said to place a new order and then and only then, they can start planning the work.

This is the 4th order at least that has been placed now, it's took us this long to get to the point where they've eventually established it is a routing issue. Every time it seems the issue is resolved, a new order is placed and another issue is found.

What it really needs is someone in OR to take ownership of the issue and deal with it, which is exactly what someone in Sky said to me today. But instead we're seeing things bounced backwards and forwards between various parts of Openreach and this will be the 4th time the order has had to be put in now.

It's already a Sky Line on ADSL2+ and there's a discount to be had for a multi-play bundle, and the ADSL2+ has been rock solid for many, many years.

It's actually my father's line, he's recently had a serious operation and I have to care for him until he has the second part of his operation that has been delayed by COVID. Literally TV and internet is all he has as he is not able to go out.

Since I'm having to be her I need to use the connection to work from home when I am providing care as we do not have it every day. The upload speed is not really sufficient for that and also if he's streaming something the connection is too slow for me to work from home easily.

I agree it should be chased up by them, but they are proactively updating me recently, but I'm not quite sure they are pressing the right buttons because they seem to be reactive to Openreach rather than proactive in trying to push the right buttons to end this circle.

Edited by deleted (Tue 01-Sep-20 23:40:30)

Fair enough. But it does seem that sky is messing up badly here, i'd do what others have said now, and pester Clive Selley, i don't like suggesting it though.

You could go via the or form which says "i can't get broadband" ..

But once again, you shouldn't be doing this it should be sky sorting it out. With your situation it very much annoying you have put up with this amount of new orders.

Email the CEO Clive Selley, explaining the time line, what's happened so far and yours and your fathers situation, be polite and to the point. What's happened is unacceptable, but does happen from time to time.

I had a similar problem years ago with Plusnet, they were constantly being given the run around by OR, which meant I was going round in circles with PN support. One email to the CEO and it was fixed within a week, I think overall it had taken two to three months. I sent the email on a Sunday afternoon, had an email back in half an hour, the next day I had a call from someone at PN who then handled everything, he told me that a CEO level complaint gives them much better control, they basically get to deal with someone much higher up the chain at OR. Given Al the reasons I was given for the fault, it was amazing it was then fixed so quickly - by Thursday.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Email the CEO Clive Selley, explaining the time line, what's happened so far and yours and your fathers situation, be polite and to the point. What's happened is unacceptable, but does happen from time to time.

I had a similar problem years ago with Plusnet, they were constantly being given the run around by OR, which meant I was going round in circles with PN support. One email to the CEO and it was fixed within a week, I think overall it had taken two to three months. I sent the email on a Sunday afternoon, had an email back in half an hour, the next day I had a call from someone at PN who then handled everything, he told me that a CEO level complaint gives them much better control, they basically get to deal with someone much higher up the chain at OR. Given Al the reasons I was given for the fault, it was amazing it was then fixed so quickly - by Thursday.

Had another call from Sky this morning, guy on the other end of the phone was frustrated with the issue and had a mini rant about Openreach and was more vocal than even I am!

Have just sent Clive an email. Sky are going to put forward the new order as asked to do so alongside very clear indications of what they expect.

Don't forget to update us with how you get on.

Will do - outlined situation in the mail and said I don't expect miracles but I do expect some progress and for someone in OR to take responsability for what needs to be done on their side and see the matter to a close.

Got a short email from high level complaints saying they have no order to provide Fibre at the address and until there is they cannot do anything (having themselves cancelled the old ones).

They asked me if they could contact the Sky executive team and will liaise with them which I agreed to. Didn't answer any of my points so far.

Have told openreach that there is no order because they closed it down several times which I already stated.

Edited by deleted (Thu 03-Sep-20 18:51:58)

I think, as many do, that you do get a speedy result, and do keep us informed.

In reply to a post by Taras:

I think, as many do, that you do get a speedy result, and do keep us informed.

I'm afraid to say the emails going backward and forward have been a farce even via the CEO's email address.

The first email from High Level Complaints said that Sky need to place an order despite the fact I mentioned in the original email that we've done that several times with no result. The email also did not answer any of the points or questions I made in my email about focusing on solutions rather than semantics. They asked for permission to contact Sky which I gave whilst also stating that we've been through the order -> fail -> order -> fail cycle before and it has not achieved anything.

They have since come back with me and advised that Sky have been told to place another order and again avoided commenting on the actual issues at hand and all the things that I have described on here and in previous email. Last time I spoke to Sky they have stated that it does start to feel like a bit of a vicious circle as they have been told to re-place the order by OR before and it hasn't achieved anything because the underlying issues have not been resolved.

In the original email I sent to OR I stated that I would like someone to take responsibility to resolve the issue of providing me FTTC and to focus on resolving the infrastructure issues that were at hand, none of which appears to have been taken onboard. For all the talk about needing to place orders, not a single word has been mentioned about the actual issue at play. I've followed up with Openreach and told them this, and that continually placing orders is not going to help resolve the matter if the issues that caused the other orders to fail are not resolved and this was the whole reason for contacting them in the first place!

Sky are now calling me back tonight to discuss what is next.Makes you wonder though if Openreach are focusing on orders so much and not saying something else, because that the orders are being placed incorrectly by Sky?

Edited by deleted (Thu 03-Sep-20 18:43:33)

Where's Ben when you need him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Verwaayen

I was in a similar mess with my first ever BT ADSL connection and an email to Ben got it sorted in 24 hrs. BT/OR or whatever they call themselves just seem to know how to really [censored] people off. But they still survive.

Sky have now replied to me that they are unable to place the order because of the fact that the systems they place the order on are not allowing them to do so. I was told that it is because that the systems do not show that Fibre can be provided at the address.

Meanwhile Openreach have come back saying they cannot do any more until the order is placed.

Our executive team will look into this to resolve the problems which have caused the delay with this provision. We’ll own this matter until we get your dad up and running.

Our executive team will keep Sky updated on the progress we’re making. And will also explain where things went wrong.

Sky will stay in touch with your dad, keeping him updated until this is sorted out. It’s right that Sky keep your dad informed of what we’re doing – this is the correct industry process.

Honestly I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

You aren't Openreach's customer, Sky are and it is for Sky to pursue the problem Sky need to press Openreach but it would appear they are unwilling to do so. Perhaps using a more proactive ISP such as AAISP might be a way to break the seeming log jam as AAISP won't lie down and allow themselves to be trampled over as seems to be the case with Sky.

The problem is that It's not my line, it's my father's line, who I am caring for after major surgery and I simply cannot risk any downtime by moving ISP, as much as it would be good to go with a smaller provider like AAISP.

Also my father has a triple play offer going on and the price is vastly cheaper than AAISP and it doesn't have any kind of data cap either. My father watches a load of stuff online and looking at our data use is quite frankly scary and I only see that going up heavily when he has FTTC since he wants to watch lots of stuff in 4K.

I agree Sky could be doing more, but Openreach haven't covered themselves in glory with their vague responses and refusal to be focusing on solutions and that's before we get onto the number of times OR notes have contradicted themselves and the engineer who told me he did work he clearly didn't.

The CEO of Openreach was not the person to contact. It is the High Level Complaints at BT Group that you should have been advised to contact.

[email protected] will normally be dealt with by that team. He is the CEO. I suggest a short email with your email to Clive Selley and the reply from Openreach copied and pasted in, plus the Sky response you have just posted about here.

Pointing out this is on behalf of your vulnerable father could not do any harm.

In reply to a post by kommando:

Where's Ben when you need him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Verwaayen

I was in a similar mess with my first ever BT ADSL connection and an email to Ben got it sorted in 24 hrs. BT/OR or whatever they call themselves just seem to know how to really [censored] people off. But they still survive.

He was Group CEO, not Openreach. That's where things get done, but there have been a few in that post since.

In reply to a post by Justin:

Sky have now replied to me that they are unable to place the order because of the fact that the systems they place the order on are not allowing them to do so. I was told that it is because that the systems do not show that Fibre can be provided at the address.

Sorry to hear it's still not going well, given the bit in bold what does the wholesale checker give for your address

https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/...

Click proceed, then enter the postcode and Captcha, hit submit, then select the correct address and hit submit.

Upload a screenshot somewhere and link it here, blank out the address, but leave the exchange and cabinet number visible, some people on the forum can check to see if there are any issues with that info.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

The CEO of Openreach was not the person to contact. It is the High Level Complaints at BT Group that you should have been advised to contact.

[email protected] will normally be dealt with by that team. He is the CEO. I suggest a short email with your email to Clive Selley and the reply from Openreach copied and pasted in, plus the Sky response you have just posted about here.

Pointing out this is on behalf of your vulnerable father could not do any harm.

The person I am dealing with is from the High Level Complaints - Customer Resolution team of Openreach. I have tried to get them to talk about the issues at hand, but the only thing they want to talk about is orders and asking Sky to place one. So far in the three emails I have from them, they have managed to avoid addressing the actual crux of the problem each time.

It is truly remarkable that you tell someone that you are fed up with the constant placing an order, it failing and then placing another order cycle and they then ask you to place another order to fix the failed one. Especially when they do not seem in the slightest bit interested in actually discussing or addressing the underlying issue that has caused the order to fail, so when the next one is placed, it actually is successful.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Sorry to hear it's still not going well, given the bit in bold what does the wholesale checker give for your address

https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/...

Click proceed, then enter the postcode and Captcha, hit submit, then select the correct address and hit submit.

Upload a screenshot somewhere and link it here, blank out the address, but leave the exchange and cabinet number visible, some people on the forum can check to see if there are any issues with that info.

See here:
https://postimg.cc/tYLMZW3Z

Openreach said last week it may be an underground cable routing issue that they are working 'very hard' to resolve, but they have been exceptionally vague and lacking in specifics, and the order where they stated about the routing issue (26th Aug) has since been closed with a note to say the order needs to be reappointed then they can look into the routing issue. This is despite they were supposed to be doing that as a result of the previous failed appointment on the 26th which itself was placed as a result of the failed appointment on the 17th where there was an underground cable issue which I assume was the same issue.

Edited by deleted (Thu 03-Sep-20 21:28:24)

Are your neighbours on the same cabinet and do their addresses get similar speed estimates? Check a few, as sometimes there are database issues, but if most surrounding properties get similar results then it's likely correct.

Perhaps if you get nowhere try asking Sky to get a new line put in, and then cease the old line, just be careful of costs and make sure Sky are happy to do that.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

Are your neighbours on the same cabinet and do their addresses get similar speed estimates? Check a few, as sometimes there are database issues, but if most surrounding properties get similar results then it's likely correct.

Perhaps if you get nowhere try asking Sky to get a new line put in, and then cease the old line, just be careful of costs and make sure Sky are happy to do that.

The funny thing is that on my road, all of the places four doors down (slightly different postcode) and further are going to Cabinet 15 whilst the other five on the same stretch of land, before the road intersection, including mine, are showing up on Cabinet 1 with similar speeds to me.

Now Cabinet 1 is by far the closest cabinet to me (about 175m) and if I do a search on my neighbours addresses who are on Cabinet 15, they get far worse estimated speeds than I got, which makes sense as that cabinet is much further away (about 600m). The exchange is about 650m away.

Edited by deleted (Thu 03-Sep-20 21:45:02)

That's not unusual, you could just be on the borders of two cabinets. If you are on overhead lines, do all the lines to houses on cab 15 come from a different telegraph pole than the ones on cab 1?

You could also ask the neighbours on cab one if they have VDSL/FTTC presuming they know the difference, could be useful to know if they had any problems.

Other than that you'll just have to stress to OR that Sky now can not place an order, but the BT Wholesale checker (include the full screen shot) shows it's available. Don't ask any other questions, just keep it simple.

In reply to a post by R0NSKI:

That's not unusual, you could just be on the borders of two cabinets. If you are on overhead lines, do all the lines to houses on cab 15 come from a different telegraph pole than the ones on cab 1?

You could also ask the neighbours on cab one if they have VDSL/FTTC presuming they know the difference, could be useful to know if they had any problems.

Other than that you'll just have to stress to OR that Sky now can not place an order, but the BT Wholesale checker (include the full screen shot) shows it's available. Don't ask any other questions, just keep it simple.

We do not appear to be on overhead lines, had the idea to look for that a little while ago. Might scout the neighbours tomorrow and see what they are on if I can catch any of them, although I'm not sure they will know the difference but getting them to run a speedtest etc will probably make it obvious.

Sky tried to place the order whilst they were on the phone to me. The person said the public side was showing that FTTC was available but when trying to place the order they got an issue saying that FTTC was unconfirmed to the address so they could not proceed with the order. What does unconfirmed normally mean in this context?

I've since bounced it back to Openreach making the point that they've asked Sky to place an order and encouraged me to ask Sky to do the same, when it's not even possible for them to do so and once again we are back to a game of ping pong with lots of words but no decisive actions being taken to resolve the impasse.

How often is the BT checker updated, is it live or is it updated once a week or something? Maybe something has changed that we cannot see yet?

Edited by deleted (Thu 03-Sep-20 23:06:57)

Last update from Sky is they still cannot place an order for me but next door is showing it's possible, but mine is showing them that FTTC is not available at my address and they can only provide ADSL2+.

The Sky checker also now says that FTTC cannot be provided to my address but if I put either of my next door neighbours addresses in it says that it can be provided.

It's now gone back to the order recovery team in Sky and I've looped Openreach High Level complaints back into the situation with the latest update. I do not expect anything to actually change however and for all the calls and emails, we seem as far away from a solution as ever.

Does anyone know any escalation path in Sky? Customer Priority team don't seem to be cutting it much to be honest and the people who do the fault logging and provisioning of lines and orders are not contactable by phone which doesn't help.

Openreach have now stated that it appears that the line is Exchange Only and this is why they cannot provide the service so they need to investigate diverting the line to PCP1 if possible.

Meanwhile Sky are still unable to place an order and now it seems that the information on the Sky database has gone missing or become corrupted and they normally use such system rather than directly placing the order on Openreach system so that has to be escalated to another part of Sky.

Honestly it's like one step forward and two steps back.

In reply to a post by Justin:

Openreach have now stated that it appears that the line is Exchange Only and this is why they cannot provide the service so they need to investigate diverting the line to PCP1 if possible.

Meanwhile Sky are still unable to place an order and now it seems that the information on the Sky database has gone missing or become corrupted and they normally use such system rather than directly placing the order on Openreach system so that has to be escalated to another part of Sky.

Honestly it's like one step forward and two steps back.

If it is EO then on the BT Wholesale search there would not be a cabinet number above the estimates table. But there is. At least, if the link you gave is for the correct address.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 04-Sep-20 14:12:49)

I gave the correct address but I was informed that there was a database error.

To quote Openreach

From a recent engineering visit it was advised that the line didn’t physically go into the cabinet (PCP1) so we couldn’t complete the installation of FTTC.

As soon as the order is placed, we will need to arrange an engineering visit to check whether it is possible to divert the pair into the PCP to get the customer up and running on FTTC.

The Sky system also appears now to report something similar which is why they are unable to place an order, as their internal systems don't allow them to place FTTC orders for Exchange Only lines,

I've asked Sky to place the order directly in the Openreach system rather than via their own, as suggested by Openreach, but not sure if people there actually know how to, or are allowed to do so.

Edited by deleted (Fri 04-Sep-20 14:26:27)

If it is EO then on the BT Wholesale search there would not be a cabinet number above the estimates table. But there is. At least, if the link you gave is for the correct address.

See my post from 7 days ago which should expalin

Edited by witchunt (Fri 04-Sep-20 15:39:49)

If OpenReach have altered the database to show you are connected to an EO line again then no FTTC order can be made, not even manually.

OpenReach will still be able to work with Sky on trying to get you a pair in to PCP1 though, allowing the order to be placed again.

Does the BT Broadband Availability Checker still show cabinet 1 or has it changed?

Also check your address on https://www.openreach.com/ and see if it still says FTTC is available.

Sounds like the wheels are in motion and should hopefully be resolved soon.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

If OpenReach have altered the database to show you are connected to an EO line again then no FTTC order can be made, not even manually.

OpenReach will still be able to work with Sky on trying to get you a pair in to PCP1 though, allowing the order to be placed again.

Does the BT Broadband Availability Checker still show cabinet 1 or has it changed?

Also check your address on https://www.openreach.com/ and see if it still says FTTC is available.

Sounds like the wheels are in motion and should hopefully be resolved soon.

Sky have stated that they cannot place an order as their system does not allow them to place an order. Reading between the lines this appears to be the Sky system that interfaces with the Openreach system that is saying this.

The Sky checker is here:
https://www.sky.com/shop/choose/add-broadband/produc...

This states that every single other house in my road has FTTC but my one tells me they can only provide me with ADSL2+. Sky confirm on the phone this is why they cannot place an order.

Openreach have said the reverse of what you have said, they said they cannot do anything without Sky placing an order and there is nothing stopping them from doing so. They said until the order is placed, they cannot divert a pair into the PCP1 or commence any work to allow FTTC to be provided to the property.

The Openreach checker continues to say FTTC is available and the BTW one still says I'm on cabinet 1. However Sky's database and order systemsays that FTTC is not available at this address. Sky do not seem able or willing to place an order direct on Openreach's system as they have been advised to do so by Openreach.

Honestly I've literally had enough with this. It's becoming a farce if it wasn't already. I'm sick to death of it.

Edited by deleted (Fri 04-Sep-20 16:09:44)

You've been told the problem which is what Witchhunt suggested earlier. Until your phone line is rerouted via PCP1 you will be unable to order VDSL2/FTTC. Until then your line remains an EO line limited to exchange based ADSL. Frustrating yes but you now know the reason.

I may have missed something along the way but didn't the Sky system previously allow you to order FTTC? Didn't Openreach previously accept an order for FTTC at your property?

Ah! Thanks. I had completely forgotten about that post.

Which to me means, if you are correct, that if the OP were to ask the Clive Selley team if it's possible his line was accidentally not transferred to PCP1 when all the other EO lines were transferred, even though the records were updated, then he may trigger Openreach to physically check that. (I emphasis the "accidentally" for the sake of politeness in his email).

In reply to a post by dect:

I may have missed something along the way but didn't the Sky system previously allow you to order FTTC? Didn't Openreach previously accept an order for FTTC at your property?

You haven't missed something, it doesn't make sense.

Yes, OR allowed an order to be placed several times all which failed without a clear description as to why any of them failed. They were supposed to be looking into the problem, but then suddenly closed the order and asked tSky to rebook which now they are unable to.

According to Openreach there is nothing on their end that is stopping an order going through. As soon as an order is put through, they claim that they will then try and divert a pair to PCP1. They have been at pains to point out that the correct process is to place a new order and then do the work, not do the work then place the FTTC order.

In reply to a post by Justin:

Openreach have said the reverse of what you have said, they said they cannot do anything without Sky placing an order and there is nothing stopping them from doing so. They said until the order is placed, they cannot divert a pair into the PCP1 or commence any work to allow FTTC to be provided to the property.

That's just nonsense I'm afraid.

I had the exact opposite of your situation.

I WAS physically connected to an FTTC enabled cabinet but the database said I couldn't order FTTC.
The OpenReach site returned a generic "your line may be too long" message".
No ISP could place a fibre order as both the OpenReach and BT Wholesale database said no to FTTC.

I had Talktalk ADSL. Talktalk advised no fibre available.

I emailed OpenReach about the database issue, knowing I was definitely connected to a fibre enabled cabinet and within range.
I never even mentioned the name of my ADSL ISP, just complained the database was incorrect.

2 days later I had a senior OpenReach engineer, a CSC (Customer Service Coach I believe?) at my door.
He proved my routing all the way to the cabinet and had the records updated the same day, allowing me to order fibre.

Happy to PM you the name/email off the lovely lady in OpenReach's office who dealt with my complaint. She was part of the HLC (High level complaints) team.

I've seen numerous cases on this forum and others where the CEO team have had engineers sent out to look up database and other issues without the involvement of the ISP.

Having an open order will certainly make things easier.
If OpenReach show availability I would be nagging Sky to fix their end and get the order placed.
At the same time I'd be pressing OpenReach to send someone to prove the line routing, or asking Sky to ask OpenReach to do this.

In reply to a post by MCM:

You've been told the problem which is what Witchhunt suggested earlier. Until your phone line is rerouted via PCP1 you will be unable to order VDSL2/FTTC. Until then your line remains an EO line limited to exchange based ADSL. Frustrating yes but you now know the reason.

That's great, but Openreach are saying they are unable to re-route the line, until another order is put in, which directly contradicts what you are saying.

Do you see the issue?

But it would seem the work has already been recorded as having been done. So nobody will physically go to check.

One good thing. Never in the future will banging your head against a brick wall hurt. You will have got used to it.

Its not the first time we have seen lines being missed when a network arrangement occurs and no blame should be put on the engineers as these things happen, its just a shame its taken Openreach all these failed orders to find this routing issue. You would think this could be resolved via a fault request prior to a new order.

We use to correct routing issue under a fault request 25+ years ago so surely it can be done now.

You've already established contact with Openreach high level complaints, press them to get it fixed. As it is you seem to be given the run around by people who neither know, nor probably care, the reason for the problem which appears to be as a result of a bodged or at least incomplete network rearrangement without which FTTC would have continued to be a pipe-dream.

Sky have updated me following an investigation and an extensive internal meeting about the situation which reviewed all orders and communication between all parts of Sky and Openreach.

I has been confirmed that Openreach have very recently changed the line status on the live system to Exchange Only and this is a result of a failed network rearrangement which missed out the lines in question which has prevented Sky from placing a new order for the service which resulted in the database being incorrect. This update has not yet been pushed to the Openreach and BT Wholesale checkers as it was very recent which is why they still show Cabinet 1.

Sky have also stated that the communications from Openreach's high level complaints department have left a lot to be desired and have reported that they have been both evasive and unhelpful and there has been a high level of contradiction from Openreach the whole way through. He also read some of the communications that they had received from Openreach out to me which I will not post here, but suffice to say it paints OR in a very poor light.

The Sky position is currently that they are unable to progress this further until Openreach connect the line to the cabinet and fix their mistakes from all those years ago. This does not effect my next door neighbours, who were not missed. Until Openreach change this Sky are snookered. He said he's come across this before and there's no way they're going to dig the road up for one person, but since they said they would do it, then I need to make sure I do everything in my power to force them to follow through on that.

It's also highly likely that the line status was changed around the same time that the previous order was closed down for a reason that is still not clear. I'm sure having an open order with a routing problem gives the ISP more leverage than an ISP not being able to place an order because FTTC is not available, so you can make your own minds up about why it happened that way.

The only avenue now is to go back through Openreach high level complaints and since they offered to do the work, force them to do it no matter what it takes, because this is the only way things will progress.

Edited by deleted (Fri 04-Sep-20 19:49:03)

Surely they knew if they cancelled your order and then changed the status of the line to EO you would not then be able to raise a new order for FTTC.

Sorry to say this but something stinks in my opinion.

In reply to a post by dect:

Surely they knew if they cancelled your order and then changed the status of the line to EO you would not then be able to raise a new order for FTTC.

Sorry to say this but something stinks in my opinion.

That's my point - they're seemingly asking Sky to place another order to resolve routing issues despite already knowing that such order is not possible.

The funny thing is a check has been done on all of my neighbours and they are still all showing as connected to Cabinet on a live system., it's just my own line that has changed to exchange only.

For kicks I've had the distance to exchange for the houses next to mine checked. All of them show as about 1km away from the exchange, but mine shows as approx 700m even on the outdated data.

300m extra distance for the house next door would probably be explained by a diversion to the cabinet, is what is being suggested, which would mean that I was the only line missed out.

I've looped Openreach high level complaints back on my last post and have suggested that since they agreed to try and do the work if an order was placed, I will take that as an admission they are willing to do the work and I expect them to now do so.

Edited by deleted (Fri 04-Sep-20 19:56:10)

Don't forget. Clive Selley is still lower down the food chain than Philip Jansen.

It's unlikely any road digging would be needed. Almost certainly there will be a bundle of cables and your line just wasn't connected to it at the exchange and cabinet.

Edited by RobertoS (Fri 04-Sep-20 20:30:02)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Don't forget. Clive Selley is still lower down the food chain than Philip Jansen.

It's unlikely any road digging would be needed. Almost certainly there will be a bundle of cables and your line just wasn't connected to it at the exchange and cabinet.

It's been established that literally the house on the other side of the wall (it's a semi-detached) has FTTC and the exchange only situation is limited to just my own line and nobody else. All houses were built at the same time. and neighbours on both sides are connected to the cabinet, so they forgot to migrate my line and no others.

Is this one of those cases where in view of being the odd one out, a new line install might be successful, if all else fails?

Edited by deleted (Fri 04-Sep-20 23:34:02)

Out of curiosity, nothing more and you might have mentioned this previously, was the line in use for either phone or ADSL in the weeks/months leading up to the network rearragement or had it been sitting unused for some time?

Is it possible that there’s nothing wrong with the line routing at all, but an engineer failed to find the pair on the first install appointment and it’s caused all of this? How likely is it that one line in what presumably is part of a multi pair cable has been missed out of a network rearrangement?

In reply to a post by jpm:

Is it possible that there’s nothing wrong with the line routing at all, but an engineer failed to find the pair on the first install appointment and it’s caused all of this? How likely is it that one line in what presumably is part of a multi pair cable has been missed out of a network rearrangement?

You may be right but in my experience a main cable leaving the exchange doesn't normally head off to one location, it drops off pairs along the way so missing a pair at a network rearrangement can happen.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Is it possible that there’s nothing wrong with the line routing at all, but an engineer failed to find the pair on the first install appointment and it’s caused all of this? How likely is it that one line in what presumably is part of a multi pair cable has been missed out of a network rearrangement?

But the second engineer was insistent that he switched the service over and told me to make sure I have a VDSL capable router installed which implies he was able to find it.

Sky did say there appeared to be a mismatch between the line id, numbers, circuits etc in relation to what there was in reality, which does make you wonder if something was changed/switched at some point and never updated on the records rather than a simple case of wrong details.

Edited by deleted (Sat 05-Sep-20 10:21:46)

In reply to a post by MCM:

Out of curiosity, nothing more and you might have mentioned this previously, was the line in use for either phone or ADSL in the weeks/months leading up to the network rearragement or had it been sitting unused for some time?

Depends when this area was upgraded to fibre, there was a network re-arrangement on 30th November 2012 I'm told when the cabinet down the road was first installed, and another one 11th March 2020 when it was expanded to serve more people. Not sure when this area was looped in but it will be one of those dates.

There has been an exceptionally stable ADSL2+ connection on the line for at least the last 6 years. Right now for instance I'm sync';d at 19803/1338 with attenuation under 20db.

Unfortunately since It's my fathers house ('m currently caring for him as he awaits the second part of major surgery) I don't have full line history. as I would have for my own.

In reply to a post by Justin:

the second engineer was insistent that he switched the service over and told me to make sure I have a VDSL capable router installed which implies he was able to find it.

To me this proves that the routing records showed it had been routed through the PCP but in fact it hadn't, the engineer must have found what should have been the 'E' and 'D' sides in the PCP which s/he had then pushed through the VDSL cabinet although in reality when the rearrangement happened it had not been intercepted in the footway/joint box so continuing to bypass the new PCP. We do not know what checks the engineer did on the line he pushed through the VDSL cabinet.

Edited by deleted (Sat 05-Sep-20 16:01:05)

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by Justin:

the second engineer was insistent that he switched the service over and told me to make sure I have a VDSL capable router installed which implies he was able to find it.

To me this proves that the routing records showed it had been routed through the PCP but in fact it hadn't, the engineer must have found what should have been the 'E' and 'D' sides in the PCP which s/he had then pushed through the VDSL cabinet although in reality when the rearrangement happened it had not been intercepted in the footway/joint box so continuing to bypass the new PCP. We do not know what checks the engineer did on the line he pushed through the VDSL cabinet.

Openreach claim that on the reappointed the order for the 26th the engineer we're talking about, 'couldn’t complete the job because the routing is incorrect and is something we working hard in the background to resolve.' and have not been willing to say any more than that about the visit, despite being pressed.

They then later closed the order and then said that they couldn't do any more until the order, which it was now impossible to place, is booked once again. This is despite the fact they said on the previous order they were working hard on the routing problem.

Ever since then despite numerous attempts to have a civilised discussion, Openreach have been highly evasive and stonewalling questions with a request for another order. I sent a detailed summary to high level complaints and I got an email back simply asking to place another order, not addressing a single point that people on this thread have raised and I raised myself.

Edited by deleted (Sat 05-Sep-20 18:57:00)

This morning I am not able to sync at all even on ADSL2+

There was a couple of engineers down by the PCP cabinet 30 minutes or so, so I wonder if they are doing something, I hope they haven't ceased my line.

Edit: Sync is back now.

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Sep-20 09:52:20)

Post deleted by Justin

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Sep-20 11:22:25)

Re-routing your line maybe.

Been here for three hours and sync up and down all of the time - not been able to get any info about what is going on but phone line has been dead throughout so had to log a line fault by employers request since unable to work from home!

Well there's been engineers going backwards and forwards since 9.00am and as of 4.00pm once again they're opening the box up down my road for the third time of the day. It seems they are doing something, but I have no idea what as no communication from Openreach to anyone else.

In the last 7 hours I've had about 45 minutes sync on my ADSL2 and a working phone line and the rest of the time no sync and a completely dead phone line. I've had the connection drop out over 30 times from anywhere between a few minutes to over an hour and it's exceptionally frustrating and impossible to work from home.

They haven't told Sky what they are doing and haven't told me despite trying to find out. I'll be glad if they are fixing it, but some communication would be really nice so I could have planned around it with my boss. So in the absence of anything else, Sky have logged a PSTN fault in the hope it might provide some answers.

The saga continues....

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Sep-20 16:16:58)

Sadly you won't be told whats going on. The only indication will the change on the dsl checker

Sadly communication is never Openreach's strong point.

Update.

Engineer has now come to the door and said they've spent the entire day sorting out the circuits, routing and everything else for that matter and line now goes through the cabinet following a fair bit of work.

Sky are unable to place an order still though, because of the PSTN fault that was logged earlier, so now we have to get that closed down and hopefully a new order can be placed.

I've also heard back from High Level Complaints, who have assigned my case to a new case manager who has apologies for today's issues and has said an update is being issued to Sky shortly.

Now lets see how things move....

Your EO line wouldn't lose sync or dial tone from them working in the cabinet.
It certainly sounds like they are moving you to a pair that runs through the cabinet, or trying to at least.

If that's the case then it would just be a short wait for them to correct the routing records to allow Sky to place the FTTC order again.

Edit: missed your update, was on page 2, doh!

Edited by j0hn83 (Mon 07-Sep-20 18:36:34)

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Your EO line wouldn't lose sync or dial tone from them working in the cabinet.
It certainly sounds like they are moving you to a pair that runs through the cabinet, or trying to at least.

If that's the case then it would just be a short wait for them to correct the routing records to allow Sky to place the FTTC order again.

Engineer said that he'd corrected the database and routing records before he came in and everything should be go ahead to order although still have to get rid of that PSTN fault that's still open.

Got a very apologetic email from HLC tonight and the fact someone has been out all day dealing with this from first thing suggests that the penny must have dropped either over the weekend or early this morning. Total change in attitude from Openreach compared to end of last week

Line stats are different now, even better than before so something was done. They've proved all the routing as well that it's gone through the cabinet and done a thorough job apparently, so lets hope this is the beginning of the end.

Which just goes to show whoever you initially spoke to was taking nonsense about needing a live order to fix the routing.

You can't place the order when the database is incorrect, as you've discovered.

Initial miscommunication but it seems to be a fairly quick resolution since contacting the CEO office.
I've always found their HLC department to be very helpful.

In reply to a post by j0hn83:

Which just goes to show whoever you initially spoke to was taking nonsense about needing a live order to fix the routing.

You can't place the order when the database is incorrect, as you've discovered.

Initial miscommunication but it seems to be a fairly quick resolution since contacting the CEO office.
I've always found their HLC department to be very helpful.

Yep, way forward now appears to be to get the PSTN fault closed then place the order.

There was some chatter from Sky that their database (which is not live) said exchange only still, but I've told them that they should find the live Openreach system will now allow an order.

There's currently an engineer booked to fix the PSTN fault, but I've asked HLC if there is any buttons they can press to close that off, since the fault was obviously related to what was going on today.

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Sep-20 18:47:59)

Right, PSTN fault has been dealt with.

Sky have confirmed that they still cannot place the order because the database update is now showing FTTP which they do not offer, rather than FTTC being available.

This looks like a database error, so it's gone back to high level complaints.to look into.

Presumably your line stats are better because you've been disconnected from the decades old copper that was running back to the exchange and onto new stuff installed recently, at least from the cabinet onwards.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Presumably your line stats are better because you've been disconnected from the decades old copper that was running back to the exchange and onto new stuff installed recently, at least from the cabinet onwards.

Line stats were excellent before, but now a touch better.

Looks like we're one issue out the way but looks like we've just hit another mind in relation to the database update. I honestly wonder will it all end. The amount of time I am spending on the phone is ridiculous.

The conversation with Sky was not the best. Rep I spoke to was adamant that despite what I was saying, that OR were never going to do work to convert someone from exchange only for one person, as it was just too much work with digging, opening up various boxes and rewiring etc. When I told her that is exactly what they have done today she didn't believe me!!!

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Sep-20 19:57:13)

As I said on the Kitz forum the Sky rep is right, they won't do this upon request normally.

It's only because a network rearrangement has already taken place and your line was missed that OpenReach are doing this work.

Network rearrangements can be a very costly and time consuming process.

In reply to a post by Justin:

Sky have confirmed that they still cannot place the order because the database update is now showing FTTP which they do not offer, rather than FTTC being available.

Actually, Sky do now sell Openreach FTTP as "Sky Ultrafast", up to 150/30. It might be fun to order it and see what happens

In reply to a post by Justin:

The conversation with Sky was not the best. Rep I spoke to was adamant that despite what I was saying, that OR were never going to do work to convert someone from exchange only for one person, as it was just too much work with digging, opening up various boxes and rewiring etc. When I told her that is exactly what they have done today she didn't believe me!!!

Not exactly.

The work that rep was talking about would be if you were only ever the only EO line. (These can occur, when a line has been put in specially to the builders office show house on a new building site before the ducting infrastructure and such has been installed by the builder).

What that rep didn't realise was what we found out on this forum, courtesy of witchunt. That there were a lot of EO lines and all of them were supposed to have been moved to the new cabinet, but yours was accidentally missed out. (Or in some way cross-connected to the incorrect pair). The person in charge of the transfers then signed off that all had been moved, and the records then updated to say they were now on Cab1.

Only! Yours wasn't. There's almost no way that rep could know that. And, no significant (if any) digging etc. was needed today. Just a lot of working out how and why yours had been missed, and fixing it.

As for the outstanding PSTN fault, as soon as you described what was happening and that you had reported the disconnections as a line fault, I thought that was unwise. Surely it was almost certain some sort of work was going on?

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by Justin:

Sky have confirmed that they still cannot place the order because the database update is now showing FTTP which they do not offer, rather than FTTC being available.

Actually, Sky do now sell Openreach FTTP as "Sky Ultrafast", up to 150/30. It might be fun to order it and see what happens

NOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

That isn't even funny!

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by Justin:

Sky have confirmed that they still cannot place the order because the database update is now showing FTTP which they do not offer, rather than FTTC being available.

Actually, Sky do now sell Openreach FTTP as "Sky Ultrafast", up to 150/30. It might be fun to order it and see what happens

I've had it checked for me by someone this evening and it certainly does not say FTTP and it showing as FTTC on the Openreach live systems, so I have no idea what the rep was on about tonight. Ironic considering she spent the whole call literally telling me I didn't know what i was talking about.

She's calling me back tomorrow night, hopefully she's not so intransigent then.

Edited by deleted (Mon 07-Sep-20 20:59:22)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Justin:

The conversation with Sky was not the best. Rep I spoke to was adamant that despite what I was saying, that OR were never going to do work to convert someone from exchange only for one person, as it was just too much work with digging, opening up various boxes and rewiring etc. When I told her that is exactly what they have done today she didn't believe me!!!

Not exactly.

The work that rep was talking about would be if you were only ever the only EO line. (These can occur, when a line has been put in specially to the builders office show house on a new building site before the ducting infrastructure and such has been installed by the builder).

What that rep didn't realise was what we found out on this forum, courtesy of witchunt. That there were a lot of EO lines and all of them were supposed to have been moved to the new cabinet, but yours was accidentally missed out. (Or in some way cross-connected to the incorrect pair). The person in charge of the transfers then signed off that all had been moved, and the records then updated to say they were now on Cab1.

Only! Yours wasn't. There's almost no way that rep could know that. And, no significant (if any) digging etc. was needed today. Just a lot of working out how and why yours had been missed, and fixing it.

As for the outstanding PSTN fault, as soon as you described what was happening and that you had reported the disconnections as a line fault, I thought that was unwise. Surely it was almost certain some sort of work was going on?

I explained all of this to the rep but her reaction was pretty much that 'these things never happen' and 'it's never just one person' and 'you must have been informed incorrectly'. I actually asked to speak to one of her colleagues because the conversation was not getting anywhere. Sadly nobody else was available. She is calling me back tomorrow but I may very well call earlier in the day and see if I can get someone else, because I've seen a lot of intransigence in this case, but that really took the biscuit tonight.

PSTN fault was only logged as I was unable to get any verification what was going on through any channel and the issue had been going on for hours at that point. I had to miss two important conference calls. As someone who works in the education sector and whom today we also had a mobile phone migration to another provider which took my work mobile out as well, It was either that or go to the office and find some care for my father at short notice which was impossible. It was logged very reluctantly under pressure from my employer.

You didn't say if you had checked what the Wholesale checker was saying, but I expect it had VDSL and FTTPoD. The clueless rep probably doesn't know the difference between FTTPoD and FTTP, and of course the checkers never say FTTC.

The ISP checkers basically show the same as BTW do to us. I expect with a bit more detail but maybe not.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

You didn't say if you had checked what the Wholesale checker was saying, but I expect it had VDSL and FTTPoD. The clueless rep probably doesn't know the difference between FTTPoD and FTTP, and of course the checkers never say FTTC.

The ISP checkers basically show the same as BTW do to us. I expect with a bit more detail but maybe not.

Neither the public ISP checkers or the BTW/OR checkers are live. The only system that is, is the OR systems where orders are placed. That has been well established by all parties over the last few weeks.

BTW and OR site's database are not updated that frequently these days, even on Sunday when the ISP checkers were showing exchange only and have been for a week, the BTW/OR checkers were still showing data from prior to that showing I was on the cabinet. Sky's own public checker is still showing Exchange Only if you use their site, the last data refresh was last week sometime.

I suspect that the rep may have been trying to place the order via Sky systems using their database that wasn't live which is why she couldn't do it. That's why I asked her to place a manual order via Openreach directly which would go through. She said she tried that as well but I'm not convinced she actually did as when I asked her to do it she said she just tried it within a few seconds and you can't place it in a few seconds.

I have had it confirmed last night that the OR live database is updated with the new details and I've since spoken to another ISP who have confirmed that they are able to place an order if need be, so this current impasse is caused by intransigence of the Rep last night, so if they're going to continue to play that game there's an easy solution.

Edited by deleted (Tue 08-Sep-20 06:37:42)

Openreach HLC have now issued Sky with a comprehensive update outlining the order can be placed and the work that was carried out yesterday, confirming what I said.

Sky have now placed the order. Meanwhile HLC are going to then ensure that the FTTC order is completed once the order has been placed to make sure it happens.

Have to say since I've had my HLC contact change to a different person they've really pushed the boat out and I can see why people say that they get things done, he's been excellent and more than willing to push things along, both on the Openreach side and also on Sky's side.

Edited by deleted (Tue 08-Sep-20 16:05:33)

Glad the end of this issue is in sight.

someone did not do the A154 properly back in the day

In reply to a post by Fastman3:

back in the day

Seems I may have used this phase a little too often in the past, I'll make a note to use it more sparingly in the future

In reply to a post by dect:

Glad the end of this issue is in sight.

Brief Update.

Sky have confirmed that they are liaising with the Director of Service office in Openreach in relation to expediting the migration to FTTC. No dates or anything yet.

Whilst I was at work today, (ironically because I needed to upload huge files that were too slow to upload on ADSL2+) I got a call from Openreach on my mobile to say they are about to switch the line over to FTTC and if everything was okay to do so. Engineer said he'd do it and call me if there was any problems he could see, I had no call so I assumed everything worked correctly.

And it actually did! I'm now sync'd at 78224 downstream and 19999 upstream, which is really excellent. I was expecting less, but no doubt they made sure my line was high quality as possible after all the trouble I've had.

I just want to thank everyone on the forum, for your help on this situation, whether it's giving me escalation paths, information that helps me guide people to bark up the right tree as opposed to the wrong one or just suggestions that can help me try and kick people into action. I wouldn't have been able to do it with you guys.

Also thanks to my case manager, SH at Openreach. He has only been on the case for just under a week, but he's handled all communications within Openreach, given Sky a nudge when they need it and, got engineers out all day to fix this on Monday, personally made sure the order went through on Tuesday and kept a close eye on it and got the final bit of work done today. Also to S at Sky, who took over the case earlier this week and has been exceptional and very customer focused.

Have a good weekend all, and thank you!

Well done. Enjoy!

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Well done. Enjoy!

Sky are calling me back on Monday to see how it goes.

Noticed the difference in upstream straight away, but despite the good sync rate only seeing 40-45Mbps downstream speeds most of the time which is pretty disappointing when the minimum guaranteed speed by Sky is 61Mbps. Not sure if that is due to capacity or peak time? Any ideas? Ir i stays like this I'll be getting a couple of months free!

In reply to a post by Justin:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Well done. Enjoy!

Sky are calling me back on Monday to see how it goes.

Noticed the difference in upstream straight away, but despite the good sync rate only seeing 40-45Mbps downstream speeds most of the time which is pretty disappointing when the minimum guaranteed speed by Sky is 61Mbps. Not sure if that is due to capacity or peak time? Any ideas? Ir i stays like this I'll be getting a couple of months free!

After all the hassle you should get 6 months free !!

I'm glad its finally fixed.

You have nigh on full sync, your throughput speeds ought to be better than that. What/how are you testing* ?









*not via wifi hopefully

I wonder if Sky still ramp up throughput speeds over the first few days, like they did on ADSL2+?

Was a temporary slowdown last night, was pulling 75Mbps later in the evening via ethernet.

Still need to sort wifi coverage out in the house though as only pulling about 30Mbps in one room., the original booster set-up worked well on ADSL2+ but seems a new set-up is required in the room I'm using as an office.

In reply to a post by Justin:

Still need to sort wifi coverage out in the house though as only pulling about 30Mbps in one room., the original booster set-up worked well on ADSL2+ but seems a new set-up is required in the room I'm using as an office.

For those speeds, consider a mesh, such as the BT WholeHome products, instead of boosters, as they have a lot more intelligence. The middle range WholeHome got the best acknowledgement from PC Pro magazine in the spring.