My Fibre Installation experience...

Hi,

may I just write up my experience today (not great) for benefit of others and hopefully I might get some advice too.

the property is a Victorian stone and bath-stone fronted serviced by pole to the front.
my installation preference is to have the ONT in the loft where the current NTE5c copper line is, that's where all the comms gear is.

today I still have a professionally constructed scaffolding tower from where the front of the house has been restored (including removing cables and ivy from the front). The tower is quite significant and would have provided a perfect platform height to install the new fibre cable.

I couldn't get the installation completed today because:
1). open reach engineers (MJ Quinn) are not allowed to use anything other than their ladders. They are not permitted to use any scaffolding.
2). the CSP can not be installed any higher than 600mm from ground level. To have the internal grade cable enter the loft means two runs of cables up and down the front of the house.
3). cables can't be clipped to my walls because it's rough stone, and the cables are not flexible
4). Ladder requires 12mm bolt to be fixed into wall. it can't go in stone, shouldn't go in bath-stone. and if you think it will hold in 120year old lime mortar then there is something wrong with you.

They could forgo the ladder with a cherry picker... no idea how that get's arranged though.

I really need an internal CSP... or no CSP?

I was told the reason the CSP must be at ground level is because they can't use the £4k splicer up a ladder. shame, because i'm sure it would have been easy enough to use it on proper scaffolding platform.

so disappointing, and not really sure what the solution is..

I'm not just disappointed that I can't have faster internet, there's something unfix-able about my copper line that causes it to have a 30second glitch 2/3 times a day. only notice it with meetings, which is like all the time.

argh!

They are very correct about the height of the CSP, not being allowed to use a customers ladder/scaffold and that to use a ladder they need to install a temporary anchor bolt.

You can read about the last securing system they use is on page 28 of this Openreach document

Subcontractors are there to do the quick, easy, standard installs. It will now get passed on to an Openreach engineer who may be more accommodating.
If they insist on an external CSP then it's a cable going to and down the property.

I was told the reason the CSP must be at ground level is because they can't use the £4k splicer up a ladder. shame, because i'm sure it would have been easy enough to use it on proper scaffolding platform.

It sounds a good idea. That scaffold won't be there if/when they need to resplice it. That's definitely not an option.

In reply to a post by umbramalison:

I'm not just disappointed that I can't have faster internet

You can: you just can't have it installed in the non-standard way that you want.

The CSP is there to provide a point of access for testing and repairs. It needs to be accessible externally and safely.

As I see it, your choices are:

1. cable down and up to the CSP
2. put the ONT on the ground floor - although you'll still have one cable going down the house, instead of two down and up.

You could consider trunking if you don't like the look of a bare cable or pair of cables. It's available in different colours.

If the aesthetics are more important to you than fast and reliable internet access, that's your choice. In a few years time you'll almost certainly have to migrate from copper to fibre. However perhaps you'll have moved house by then; or you could switch to 5G/6G to avoid the external cable (albeit at lower reliability than FTTP)

Do you not just need an ethernet cable going from the ground floor to the loft?

I can understand why someone wouldn't want to use scaffolding that someone else put up - for all they know it could have been put up by cowboys and not be safe. I suspect their insurance wouldn't pay out if they used scaffolding that someone else had put up and something went wrong.

Could you run the two cables up/down the wall behind a gutter downpipe to hide them?

Thanks,
I've spoken to my ISP and they are looking into arranging an installation with the fibre specialist in the hope that they can be more accommodating.

I don't understand why the CSP needs to be accessible without my presence, I don't want anyone touching it without my permission as that would certainly cause a loss of service, and so I've also asked my ISP for an internal CSP in the loft. They are looking into it...

You might be right that I can't have it installed the way I would like, but i'm still in the process of that being decided.

you might have missed some of the info in my post, but I don't have flat walls, it's irregular stone and the external grade cable is not very flexible. it would be impossible to clip this to the wall. it won't be any easier with a conduit either, as this would have to stick out on legs off the face of the wall.

I have seen this comment about the CSP being there for testing and repairs before, and others have contested it. where are you getting that from? I can't imagine any testing or repair work that would be done without home owners permission and presence.

the aesthetics is not just a whimsical thing, it's a love and respect for Victorian character, and there are covenants about changing the frontage.

I'm hoping that I will get fibre in without defacing the house, so I won't need to make that decision. but i put my experiences here for others so that they can be better informed than I was.

Edited by umbramalison (Fri 06-May-22 15:34:08)

In reply to a post by smouty:

Do you not just need an ethernet cable going from the ground floor to the loft?

that might help, but I still have to find a route for the external grade cable to the CSP.
it's also quite a bit of work to place a new ethernet cable internally down from the loft, but not impossible.
I'd also have to run power as well so that the ONT gets UPS.

UPS is another reason why it would be so much easier if the CSP and ONT could go in the loft. Everything is there waiting for it.

In reply to a post by ian72:

I can understand why someone wouldn't want to use scaffolding that someone else put up - for all they know it could have been put up by cowboys and not be safe. I suspect their insurance wouldn't pay out if they used scaffolding that someone else had put up and something went wrong.

That's exactly the situation.

but it's frustrating because:
1) if every trade took this approach you would be constantly taking down scaffolding and putting up their own. This scaffolding has so far served Stone masons, roofers, stove/flue company, glaziers and decorators.
2) there isn't a safe way to secure the ladder.

the ladder isn't safer. but the ladder is what they are told to use.

In reply to a post by threelegs:

Could you run the two cables up/down the wall behind a gutter downpipe to hide them?

we looked at this too. but the locations of the downpipes didn't align with line of sight to the pole

I have never had scaffolding - is there some sort of certificate provided by the scaffolders that is shared with the various trades to cover them for insurance purposes? If there is then the question would be why that can't be accepted - but I suspect it is a general rule to avoid any responsibility.

I assume there is some public liability insurance. that would definitely help explain the shear cost of it.
£1440 to be exact.
It's the first scaffolding experience I've had and I didn't think to ask for a certificate at the time.

If the engineer had said do you have a certificate for that otherwise I can't use it then I would have a definite answer by now!
it at least fly's the company flag/banner on it, so it can't be a terrible construction unless any advertisement is good advertisement

I imagine providing certs would just add paper work costs, and thus it's cheaper to train and send the engineers up less safe ladders instead... (yes i'm still bitter)

How about if the fibre went to a new pole on your property and then you ducted it to your house?

Thinking outside the box here, and depending on how long your front garden is it might be no better aesthetically than a cable coming down the front of the property. It also relies on Openreach being prepared to supply a pole.

In reply to a post by jpm:

How about if the fibre went to a new pole on your property and then you ducted it to your house?

Thinking outside the box here, and depending on how long your front garden is it might be no better aesthetically than a cable coming down the front of the property. It also relies on Openreach being prepared to supply a pole.

Interesting idea. I don't know how I'd start a conversation quite like that. Thanks

The drop wire (fibre) can be run inside and teh CSP installed in an easily accessible location. Mine is ...

Like you, when I had scaffolding up it was used by brickies, roofers, glaziers, chippies, me, squirrels and more ...

We were told "do not allow anyone to adjust it - we (scaffolders) will come back when needed. Buildners knew full well not to make changes to it. No reputable scaffolding company is going to do an unsafe installation, knowingly, and if they did, word would spread quickly.


Why theey refused? Lack of management foresight!

In reply to a post by MHC:

The drop wire (fibre) can be run inside and teh CSP installed in an easily accessible location. Mine is ...

Specifically, is yours installed internally? From pole?
When was it installed?
Did you have to do anything to get that? Or did the first engineer just do it there and then?

Idea... You use the scaffold (at your own risk !) You obtain first a length of 'Ducting' one end in your coms room the other end (securely fixed, Important) .
You place a draw rope with one end tied down in your coms room the other comes out of the duct and is long enough (plus extra) to reach the ground.

Plan Hopefully BT engineer comes next time Not Cowboys Quinn, bt chap plugs fibre in to pole end CBT the other tied to draw rope,you get in the loft and help pull it through.
As long as your loft is boarded and safe to access via stairs the BT chap should be ok to go up to splice.

BT chap will still need access to the Internal CSP and ONT to test.

Re ladder bolt is standard practice for H&S.

60m drop direct from pole.

All I did was tell them the internal routing that HAD to be followed - into loft, through conduit along loft wall, through 300mm wall to second loft, and then further along to location of existing NTE.

Installation was by a Kelly technican, actually 1 + trainee, carried out in March '21.

They arrived, looked asked a few questions and then got on with it - I threaded it ito te first conduit with them on te outside, but no issues with them.

What I'm asking for is even simpler.

The loft is boarded, lit and with stairs. The room is accessed directly from the soffit. The mounting location for the ONT is 2M from the eyelet where the copper cable ties to the house, which is less than a foot from the soffit. I just fitted the bell box in the same site so I have first hand experience.on how easy it is to run cable from there into loft. If you can combe your hair, it's almost the same motion.

I don't even need ducting or pull through.

I know I won't win this last bit, but they don't even need a ladder. The job could not have been easier.
The scaffolding is like an extension on the house, should have told them it was a veranda, I'd sleep out there tonight if there was a point worth proving.

Providing the CSP can be internal and in loft, then it is as easy as poking the external grade cable up via the soffit and into the loft. That is the Comms room.

The soffit is less than a foot from the cable anchorage point.

Quinn wanted to drop to ground level externally, CSP and splice there before going straight back up to soffit. But again the cables won't clip to the walls anyway, and there's nothing to anchor the ladder to.

Another reason why I am not that bothered about getting Fibre when it comes is because of the hassle of the installation.

the ladder isn't safer. but the ladder is what they are told to use.

If the Tetra climbing system is used, then they are told that it IS as safe.
The eyebolt anchors the the ladder to the building, the operative is attached, via their harness, to the ropes on the ladder.

The external CSP makes a huge amount of sense too. Allowing for future flexibility, and meaning that fault finding, if required, will not always require you to make an appointment.

How about if the fibre went to a new pole on your property and then you ducted it to your house?

How does this help ?
The CSP would be put where the cable comes out of the duct, which the OP doesn’t want. The cable to the ONT would have to go up the face of the house to enter through the soffit, which the OP doesn’t want.

Add to that a new pole would add, literally, months to the job, and would be a large added cost to the customer

I don't understand why the CSP needs to be accessible without my presence, I don't want anyone touching it without my permission as that would certainly cause a loss of service,

It belongs to the fibre provider, it’s not yours.

Are you saying that anyone needs your permission to touch any part of the network that carries your service ?!?!

This is off the top of my head so may have many many holes in it

Could you not offer to do the attachment of the fibre connectorised cable to the soffit and poke it through into the loft (via your scaffolding) for an internal CSP?

I have seen previous comments on here saying letting a customer assist an engineer is very unprofessional but Openreach allow Developers to do some of fibre work on most new builds these days. Also a lot of the commercial rollouts are being done by Tier 1 and Tier 2 contractors and having seen some of their work its normally [censored] poor as well.

Edited by deleted (Sat 07-May-22 09:34:16)

Of course not.

I'm only talking about the physical boundary, aka my land!
There's lots of scenarios why you can't assume access, what if I had dogs who didn't like random people turning up? I do have a dog, who does love visitors but the engineer might not want their ear canals licked clean! Also they might leave the gate open and then who knows who's ears my dog will be cleaning.

There's no general benefit in an externally/easily accessible CSP. You still need permission to open the gate to get to it. There's a "splice" point for the copper cable too so to speak. It's where the external grade cable joins the internal. It's inline and right up where the anchors to the house. No one has ever needed to touch that since it was installed.

I can see why it would be their preference, but not the rule.

In reply to a post by dect:

This is off the top of my head so may have many many holes in it

Could you not offer to do the attachment of the fibre connectorised cable to the soffit and poke it through into the loft (via your scaffolding) for an internal CSP?

I have seen previous comments on here saying letting a customer assist an engineer is very unprofessional but Openreach allow Developers to do some of fibre work on most new builds these days. Also a lot of the commercial rollouts are being done by Tier 1 and Tier 2 contractors and having seen some of their work its normally [censored] poor as well.

Thanks, I'll keep this in my back pocket for the next engineer.

I did suggest helping the Quinn guy but he said it would be too much trouble regarding paperwork. I didn't put it quite as clearly as you have because we were trying to solve for an external CSP. I didn't know an internal one was really a thing till the responses here.

In reply to a post by umbramalison:

I didn't know an internal one was really a thing till the responses here.

They are the original CSP's used for both external and internal use manufactured by a company called OFS, they come in grey, brown and white although most people have the white version internally, I'm sure you would accept the current larger external one installed inside your loft if it meant thing would proceed via your chosen route.

In reply to a post by dect:

In reply to a post by umbramalison:

I didn't know an internal one was really a thing till the responses here.

They are the original CSP's used for both external and internal use manufactured by a company called OFS, they come in grey, brown and white although most people have the white version internally, I'm sure you would accept the current larger external one installed inside your loft if it meant thing would proceed via your chosen route.

Spot on, nothing looks pretty in the loft. And can be concealed (cupboard) if that was a concern.
Thanks for the list of options to look out for.

In reply to a post by umbramalison:

What I'm asking for is even simpler.

The loft is boarded, lit and with stairs. The room is accessed directly from the soffit. The mounting location for the ONT is 2M from the eyelet where the copper cable ties to the house, which is less than a foot from the soffit. I just fitted the bell box in the same site so I have first hand experience.on how easy it is to run cable from there into loft. If you can combe your hair, it's almost the same motion.

I don't even need ducting or pull through.

I know I won't win this last bit, but they don't even need a ladder. The job could not have been easier.
The scaffolding is like an extension on the house, should have told them it was a veranda, I'd sleep out there tonight if there was a point worth proving.

Forget your idea of using the scaffolding. No engineer should go up it regardless of what you say or who installed it, trying to make them go up there could get them the sack, it is a simple health & safety thing, so do not try and insist they use it. It matters not who might have used it before, the rules are the rules and when it comes to safety, you breach them you get sacked!!! If you do not have a scaf tag on it, no one should be going up it. Even if you did then that engineer would need to be trained to climb it etc, so realistically, its not going to happen.

Someone mentioned about the customer helping to feed the drop wire across from the pole????? Really? Absolutely NOT. Again a massive safety issue right there. Does the existing drop wire go across a road? If so a cut and draw is required regardless of how busy the road might be and the customer should never be involved in anything like that as they are not trained. What if the customer was up the scaffolding and then dropped the cable and it fell into the road? Anything went wrong with this then that engineer would face immediate dismissal. Is one broadband installation worth their job? No.

One other point is every property and installation is different, there is no one rule fits all. Just because one person had their installation done in a certain way doesn't mean the next one can. Although the customer in this case might want their installation done in a certain way, there is no guarantee that will be possible or it might just take longer to find a safe solution.

Those original CSP’s are for an older style installation. Not suited to the newer connectorised stuff.

I think you said it very well. It is a h&s thing I wouldn't want to put anyones life or career in any risk.

That's how it is and I respect that. Taking a few steps back however, it's still a bit silly.

The loft, boarded by myself... Any safer? Irrelevant until insurance decide to not cover it.

It is only a h&s issue because they don't provide more training and don't pay for insurance. It would be great if people could be trained and insured to make their own assessments.

The ladder system is a great solution to minimise cost and minimise complexity. Training and insurance can be explicit, tick box and done.

I know that the secure bolt system would not be as secure as the scaffolding in this instance. Because I know the state and construction of my house and the front wall is really a fasade.

I've asked for a cherry picker as this is safest and doesn't leave me with a repair bill either.

In reply to a post by umbramalison:

I'm only talking about the physical boundary, aka my land!
There's lots of scenarios why you can't assume access

Ah, get orf my land!

Even if this is old and doesn't apply, I bet somewhere in the contract for phone or interwebs there's a clause about letting Openreach have access.

In reply to a post by umbramalison:

I think you said it very well. It is a h&s thing I wouldn't want to put anyones life or career in any risk.

That's how it is and I respect that. Taking a few steps back however, it's still a bit silly.

The loft, boarded by myself... Any safer? Irrelevant until insurance decide to not cover it.

It is only a h&s issue because they don't provide more training and don't pay for insurance. It would be great if people could be trained and insured to make their own assessments.

The ladder system is a great solution to minimise cost and minimise complexity. Training and insurance can be explicit, tick box and done.

I know that the secure bolt system would not be as secure as the scaffolding in this instance. Because I know the state and construction of my house and the front wall is really a fasade.

I've asked for a cherry picker as this is safest and doesn't leave me with a repair bill either.

If a hoist is able to access the location where your current drop wire fixes to the building etc, then this will be your solution. The hoist will need a good drive which has stable ground to be able to work from and hopefully your current scaffolding won't be in the way for the bucket on the hoist. Note, the hoist can't work from any soft ground as it will potentially be unstable and that's never good!

As i say each install is different, it's not that it can't be done, but sometimes takes a little longer to be completed safely. I'm sure there will be a solution that works for you.

Yes H&S can be a pain in the back side and get in the way of what might seem like a simple solution, but when things go wrong then everything hits the pan if rules have not been followed correctly.

As regards the loft space, this needs to be boarded and fully lit and accessed by a fixed loft ladder that is fully secured at the top, as long as this has been done, then that is one thing that hopefully won't get in your way. Be prepared though to offer to crawl into the corner of the loft and grab the cable yourself for the engineers when the poke it in from the outside if they aren't keen to do this. This is where a simple draw string might save a lot of time. If you are willing to pop one through from the outside where the existing copper cable enters the loft to where your kit is located, then the hoist driver will just have to tape the new fibre cable on to the end of it and you pull from inside. If you do this it will just make it easier on the day and one potential obstacle removed.

In reply to a post by Woolwich:

I bet somewhere in the contract for phone or interwebs there's a clause about letting Openreach have access.

There is a difference between giving Openreach access and giving them unfettered access, it may be convenient for Openreach but not necessary for their customers.

In reply to a post by MHC:

Like you, when I had scaffolding up it was used by brickies, roofers, glaziers, chippies, me, squirrels and more ...

We were told "do not allow anyone to adjust it - we (scaffolders) will come back when needed. Buildners knew full well not to make changes to it. No reputable scaffolding company is going to do an unsafe installation, knowingly, and if they did, word would spread quickly.


Why theey refused? Lack of management foresight!

I had scaffolding up when we did a major house refurbishment. Took the roof completely off and replaced it. As part of that work I had the power cable removed, and replaced with an underground feed. The DNO pole is on the boundary of our property. Ironically the DNO chaps refused to dig the trench, because of the scaffolding, but they were more than happy to use the scaffolding to disconnect the overhead feed!
My builder dug the trench for them. Under a Grand for the whole job.

By the way, I also approached Openreach to do the same (they feed the house from the same pole) They wanted 360 quid just to come a take a look, and that fee would have been added (and not absorbed) into the cost of the work. If I decided not to proceed the 360 quid was non returnable. I rejected their proposal, and took down and reattached the line myself. I do wish now that I'd put a BT approved duct in from the pole to the house to future proof for FTTP.

Yeah, I'm not entirely sure why they decided to put the copper feed for our house DIG and not in a duct, though I never thought that it would cause issues down the line for fibre. It had to go overhead, which looks a bit weird, but the other option would've been very costly and messy!