Any point switching from one "upto 80Mb" providr to another?

Asking for a friend who is on TalkTalk Fibre 65 and experiencing fairly terrible evening speeds. Daytime is OK, about 20Mb in each direction, but evenings slows to about 0.8, much complaining in the house about xbox being unplayable etc. Because it's OK in the day it seems more like it's a contention/resource sharing rather than a problem with the connection per se?

TT has said friend can leave for free, but as far as I can see there might not be anywhere to go... NowBB, Sky, EE, Voda and BT re also offering "up to 80" fibre broadband for the location, Virgin is unavailable. The exchange also has TT and Sky LLU kit in (if the samknows page i found is still valid/up to date).

Is there any solution? Would switching away from TT and to another provider actually help any or is it all just re-badged OpenReach and unlikely to be any different of an evening? How does one find out? Is it contention for the line, or kit overload in the exchange/at TT?

Friend would prefer e.g. a consistent 16Mb copper over a variable 0.8 - 20 Mb fibre..

Edited by charred (Tue 14-Jun-22 11:17:56)

If it is caused by contention (which it probably is from the description) then moving to another provider would most likely fix the issue - the contention is likely in TTs network so moving to a provider that doesn't use TT retail connectivity would probably fix it. Also, TT provide a wholesale business service which has usually be considered much better than TT retail and there are some providers that resell that service with great success.

So, given a free let to leave then I would be taking that up and moving to a different provider. It isn't 100% guaranteed but it is VERY likely to fix it.

How are these speeds being tested? Getting the full 20Mbps up but then only 20Mbps down seems like there is either a fault or a limit somewhere within the home.

The tests really need to be done to a known-good server like TBB or Speedtest.net with a PC connected to the router with a cable. An idea of the line stats as reported by the router would be good as well.

In reply to a post by jpm:

How are these speeds being tested? Getting the full 20Mbps up but then only 20Mbps down seems like there is either a fault or a limit somewhere within the home.

TalkTalk Fibre 65 is 80/20 so 20Mbps up is not full, mine never varies much and its not something i have read being a major problem with TT so maybe its not congestion.

What was the minimum speed he was guaranteed?

Edited by Jack_Hackett (Tue 14-Jun-22 20:22:01)

In reply to a post by charred:

Is there any solution? Would switching away from TT and to another provider actually help any or is it all just re-badged OpenReach and unlikely to be any different of an evening? How does one find out? Is it contention for the line, or kit overload in the exchange/at TT?

OpenReach don't provide internet access. They run the wires that connect from your home through to wherever the internet provider has their equipment. In some cases that can be through many exchanges.

That the download is 20 Mbps during the day and 0.8 Mbps in the evening is obviously a problem, and could very easily be down to the fact that the chosen ISP is the lowest priced in the UK and has less to invest. So you have an "M25" type problem, too many people using it at one time.

That they only get 20 Mbps on an "up to 80" service is likely due to distance, and perhaps quality of the wire in the ground or on poles.

However they should be able to get this speed at all times, during the working day, evenings, and overnight. As they cannot then changing internet provider is advised. The supplier should have given an estimate of the top speed, that could be 20 Mbps or faster, that speed should be reached generally most of the time and is telling you more about the link from the home to the Openreach equipment in the street cabinet.

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

TalkTalk Fibre 65 is 80/20 so 20Mbps up is not full, mine never varies much so maybe its not congestion.

Could be quite easily congestion on a circuit from the Openreach handover node into the TalkTalk network, affecting many areas. Yours is obviously not affected. This will require TalkTalk to spend money, something they don't have much on at the super low prices they charge.

In reply to a post by jpm:

How are these speeds being tested? Getting the full 20Mbps up but then only 20Mbps down seems like there is either a fault or a limit somewhere within the home.

Or the distance to the VDSL cabinet only allows 20Mbps. The important fact is that the high is 20 but during the evening the low is 0.8 which has to be provider congestion, or a fault. That the highest speed (20) is quite low may be worth other investigations.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

TalkTalk Fibre 65 is 80/20 so 20Mbps up is not full, mine never varies much so maybe its not congestion.

Could be quite easily congestion on a circuit from the Openreach handover node into the TalkTalk network, affecting many areas. Yours is obviously not affected. This will require TalkTalk to spend money, something they don't have much on at the super low prices they charge.

They don't normally let customers leave so easily (see below) so maybe they know there is a problem and its not going to get fixed any time soon.

TT has said friend can leave for free, but as far as I can see there might not be anywhere to go.

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

They don't normally let customers leave so easily (see below) so maybe they know there is a problem and its not going to get fixed any time soon.

To me that is a “red flag” that means I would migrate as soon as possible to another provider in budget. Using the tools on this site to help select.

You can check https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/...
Enter your postcode. I know telephone number won't be recognized on a TalkTalk line with the checker.

Check what are the estimate speeds for the highest and lowest. If you know the cabinet distance and that it isn't too far, then it could be crosstalk.

But 20Mbps is actually quite low speed and could indicate the line is too long to your cabinet. If this is the case then switching provider will make no difference.

I'm on TalkTalk FTTC last 2 years and 4 months. I used to always get 80-20 Mbps.
There was a recent router firmware upgrade to TalkTalk Wi-Fi Hub version SG4K100136

Since then my speed has dropped to Download 76.3 Mbps Upload 19.8 Mbps.

I can't say if this is a coincidence or not. But I've never ever had below 20Mbps upload last 2 years since joining TalkTalk. The router firmware definitely caused that. You should check router stats as well and make sure you are connected to an Ethernet cable rather than WiFi for most accurate results.

My download was also always 80Mbps but since February this has dropped to 76Mbps. Checker still shows max estimate as 80Mbps for both Impacted and Clean lines. So perhaps crosstalk is the blame.

I'm now waiting for CommunityFibre to install their FTTP in my building. Support team say within a month. Site says that FTTP will come in a few months. So this is why I haven't yet changed FTTC provider.

If you've got an Altnet FTTP coming your area soon, check to see if you have any hope for that before deciding to switch to a new FTTC contract.

Although I'm paying £40 a month to TalkTalk for out of contract, I'd definitely switch if no hope of FTTP for price factor at least. But I'm sacrificing the cost for now should FTTP come soon, so that way I won't be stuck on an existing FTTC contract.

Edited by BLaZiNgSPEED (Wed 15-Jun-22 00:48:48)

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Although I'm paying £40 a month to TalkTalk for out of contract, I'd definitely switch if no hope of FTTP for price factor at least. But I'm sacrificing the cost for now should FTTP come soon, so that way I won't be stuck on an existing FTTC contract.

We pay £28 for the same 80/20 package why is yours so high?

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

We pay £28 for the same 80/20 package why is yours so high?

And you could pay £22 with Vodafone. Worth shopping around.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

We pay £28 for the same 80/20 package why is yours so high?

And you could pay £22 with Vodafone. Worth shopping around.

We don't have Vodafone here, i have been with talk talk 12 years with hardly any problems at all in all that time i don't mind paying the extra £1.50 a week

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Although I'm paying £40 a month to TalkTalk for out of contract, I'd definitely switch if no hope of FTTP for price factor at least. But I'm sacrificing the cost for now should FTTP come soon, so that way I won't be stuck on an existing FTTC contract.

We pay £28 for the same 80/20 package why is yours so high?

This is my TalkTalk bill.

My bills & payments

Due on: 10/06/2022

Broadband & Calls £39.86

The reason for this price hike is that when I signed up initially on a 24 month contract in February 2020 it was £21.75 a month for 24 months. Actually they breached the agreement, it then jumped to £23.99 mid contract.

Since March 2022 the price jumped to £39.86. It was a big shock to see this happen. But I heard from several others that this is nothing new. Once you complete your initial contract they increase the prices. This will happen with every one until they don't switch to a new provider.

They offered me to sign a new 24 month contract for £24.99. Of-course I'm not so daft to do that. There are cheaper options out there with Uswitch vouchers, which would be better value for money.

But I haven't considered switching yet because https://communityfibre.co.uk are meant to come soon!

Coming soon

"Great news, we're bringing full fibre broadband to you within the next few months."

Due to this reason I have decided for now to sacrifice this cost. Since signing a new contract will mean that if FTTP comes from CommunityFibre I won't be able to quit FTTC penalty free.

So I'm waiting for this to happen. I've seen fibre cables run down inside my building but for some reason the installation works haven't been fully completed yet. Once I switch then I will end my contract with TalkTalk and that way I won't be penalized as I am out of contract.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Although I'm paying £40 a month to TalkTalk for out of contract, I'd definitely switch if no hope of FTTP for price factor at least. But I'm sacrificing the cost for now should FTTP come soon, so that way I won't be stuck on an existing FTTC contract.

We pay £28 for the same 80/20 package why is yours so high?

This is my TalkTalk bill.

My bills & payments

Due on: 10/06/2022

Broadband & Calls £39.86

The reason for this price hike is that when I signed up initially on a 24 month contract in February 2020 it was £21.75 a month for 24 months. Actually they breached the agreement, it then jumped to £23.99 mid contract.

Since March 2022 the price jumped to £39.86. It was a big shock to see this happen. But I heard from several others that this is nothing new. Once you complete your initial contract they increase the prices. This will happen with every one until they don't switch to a new provider.

They offered me to sign a new 24 month contract for £24.99. Of-course I'm not so daft to do that. There are cheaper options out there with Uswitch vouchers, which would be better value for money.

They put my price up last year but did send this which is part of the email they sent, as i have always got good speeds and haven't had much hassle i decided to stay, i always phone the retention team a couple of months before my contract ends and they always offer a price reduction to get me to stay.

Thanks for being a loyal TalkTalk customer. We want you to stay with us, but you can choose to leave us before 15th July 2021 without any charges. You need to contact us directly via phone to ensure you are not charged. After this date, there will be an early termination charge if you cancel your broadband within your minimum contracted term. Click here for more information.

Edited by Jack_Hackett (Wed 15-Jun-22 20:12:28)

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

We don't have Vodafone here, i have been with talk talk 12 years with hardly any problems at all in all that time i don't mind paying the extra £1.50 a week

I believe Vodafone use openreach so are available everywhere openreach has service. But yes not worth changing for £1.50 😎

Vodafone do not normally use BT Wholesale.
ISPs that use their own network / backhaul have to buy cables links at each FTTC / FTTP head end exchange to connect the Openreach kit to the backhaul network.
The main players are: BT wholsale, TalkTalk, Sky and Vodafone.
When my area had FTTC provisioned Vodafone were the last to offer a service.
When my area had FTTP provisioned the same happened, Vodafone were a year or more behind the competition.

I don't think Talk Talk guarantee the price for the term of the contract like Plusnet do.

Off the top of my head they state there will be an annual increase of up to CPI+3.9% but have to give you the option of leaving penalty free within 30 days of notifying you of the increase.

In reply to a post by simon194:

I don't think Talk Talk guarantee the price for the term of the contract like Plusnet do.

Off the top of my head they state there will be an annual increase of up to CPI+3.9% but have to give you the option of leaving penalty free within 30 days of notifying you of the increase.

Not true. If they make an increase which is *not* in your contract, you can leave penalty-free. But if you signed up to CPI+3.9%, they will keep you to it.

See: https://www.plus.net/help/legal/cpi-plus-guide/

Can I cancel my contract because of these changes?

If we're only putting up the price of broadband, line rental, call plans, call charges and BT Sport in line with the CPI plus 3.9% and you choose to cancel because of that, you'll still need to pay any early termination charges if you're still within your minimum term. This is because the amount we can increase your price by is fixed to any increase in CPI plus 3.9% and we'll have made the price increase clear when you signed up and you'll have agreed to it in our terms and conditions.

If we put up our prices for any other reason though, you might be able to end your contract early without paying any charge.

In reply to a post by skandia2:

Vodafone do not normally use BT Wholesale.

Agreed, which has nothing to do with being available eveywhere Openreach has FTTC/VDSL infrastructure. The ISP part of Vodafone was previously the Cable&Wireless consumer division that ran the Bulldog ISP years ago, some may remember. They are not new to this.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

We don't have Vodafone here, i have been with talk talk 12 years with hardly any problems at all in all that time i don't mind paying the extra £1.50 a week

I believe Vodafone use openreach so are available everywhere openreach has service. But yes not worth changing for £1.50 😎

This is what shows for mu exchange -
https://i.postimg.cc/WzqhbHnF/llu.jpg

In reply to a post by skandia2:

Vodafone do not normally use BT Wholesale.
ISPs that use their own network / backhaul have to buy cables links at each FTTC / FTTP head end exchange to connect the Openreach kit to the backhaul network.
The main players are: BT wholsale, TalkTalk, Sky and Vodafone.
When my area had FTTC provisioned Vodafone were the last to offer a service.
When my area had FTTP provisioned the same happened, Vodafone were a year or more behind the competition.

Thanks for the info.

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

This is what shows for mu exchange - https://i.postimg.cc/WzqhbHnF/llu.jpg

Samknows website has been wrong for 10 years. Ignore it

In reply to a post by candlerb:

In reply to a post by simon194:

I don't think Talk Talk guarantee the price for the term of the contract like Plusnet do.

Off the top of my head they state there will be an annual increase of up to CPI+3.9% but have to give you the option of leaving penalty free within 30 days of notifying you of the increase.

Not true. If they make an increase which is *not* in your contract, you can leave penalty-free. But if you signed up to CPI+3.9%, they will keep you to it.

See: https://www.plus.net/help/legal/cpi-plus-guide/

Can I cancel my contract because of these changes?

If we're only putting up the price of broadband, line rental, call plans, call charges and BT Sport in line with the CPI plus 3.9% and you choose to cancel because of that, you'll still need to pay any early termination charges if you're still within your minimum term. This is because the amount we can increase your price by is fixed to any increase in CPI plus 3.9% and we'll have made the price increase clear when you signed up and you'll have agreed to it in our terms and conditions.

If we put up our prices for any other reason though, you might be able to end your contract early without paying any charge.

TalkTalk did something similar to Plusnet a while ago they upped the price but gave the option to leave (as said in the other post) and this is the rest of the message is below -

Each April, we’ll adjust the monthly amount you pay for your broadband and increase by the Consumer Price Index (CPI) rate of inflation plus 3.7% (which is lower than Vodafone, BT, EE and Plusnet’s current price rise commitments).

The CPI rate that we use is announced in January each year and we will adjust your bill by this amount, plus an additional 3.7%. This change will only apply to our broadband packages (some exemptions apply).

For example, the CPI rate announced in January 2021 was 0.6%, so all relevant customers’ monthly plan prices from April of the same year would see an increase of 4.3%. So, if you normally pay £25 for your broadband service, your new monthly charge would be £26.08.
If the CPI figure is negative in the relevant year we will only increase the charges by 3.7%.

These changes are being made due to increased running costs and further investment in the network. They will allow us to continue to offer resilient, totally unlimited usage as standard. That investment also means we can bring faster speeds to customers, including full fibre, to help meet increasing data demands.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

This is what shows for mu exchange - https://i.postimg.cc/WzqhbHnF/llu.jpg

Samknows website has been wrong for 10 years. Ignore it

Thanks i will have a look at Vodafone website as i am out of contract in a couple of months.

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

This is what shows for mu exchange - https://i.postimg.cc/WzqhbHnF/llu.jpg

Samknows website has been wrong for 10 years. Ignore it

Apologies to Charred for hijacking your thread.

I have checked on the Vodafone site and you are right i can get it here for £22 per month so am going to call the TT retention team next month and see if they can match it if the answer is no i will give Vodafone a try.

My point was that I've never seen an FTTC circuit where the sync was low due to line length also achieve 20Mbps on the upstream. They're always very asymmetric, and the fact the OP is getting 20Mbps up and the same down could be an indication of a fault.

In reply to a post by jpm:

the fact the OP is getting 20Mbps up and the same down could be an indication of a fault.

Worth a fault ticket, but if the ISP is providing speeds that low at peak times, I would jump to a new ISP with a reputation for fixing faults.

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

We don't have Vodafone here, i have been with talk talk 12 years with hardly any problems at all in all that time i don't mind paying the extra £1.50 a week

I believe Vodafone use openreach so are available everywhere openreach has service. But yes not worth changing for £1.50 😎

This is what shows for mu exchange -
https://i.postimg.cc/WzqhbHnF/llu.jpg

Yeah, SamKnows is not reliable.

I see you live in South Cumbria. Have you checked WeFibre? https://wefibre.com/
They are an altnet provider. I see an article here https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/08/wefibr...
They are rolling out FTTP in your area.

There are many Altnet FTTP providers that don't appear in a SamKnows or general Uswitch postcode checker. These only show availability. But they don't show whether an Altnet provider is coming to your area. Sometimes you have to manually search the official websites of these Altnet providers and enter postcodes there and see if any wayleaves have passed or whether they are considering building soon.

Example, SamKnows is showing BT FTTP as available for my postcode. BT FTTP broadband availability

"You are connected to the Bishopsgate telephone exchange."

"FTTP is available in your area"

This is false, I don't have Openreach FTTP and no plans for Openreach FTTP either. It's also showing availability for FTTC in a building next to me Kensington Apartments (E1 6LW and E1 6NE) when I know they don't have it. But they have CommunityFibre, which SamKnows does not display.

I have another apartment in Central London that I rent out. Sidney Street E1 2HH. Again, no FTTC. However, they have FTTP from CommunityFibre and will get Hyperoptic in August. I had to manually do these searches myself to find out.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

In reply to a post by jchamier:

... nested quotes trimmed ...

I believe Vodafone use openreach so are available everywhere openreach has service. But yes not worth changing for £1.50 😎

This is what shows for mu exchange -
https://i.postimg.cc/WzqhbHnF/llu.jpg

Yeah, SamKnows is not reliable.

I see you live in South Cumbria. Have you checked WeFibre? https://wefibre.com/
They are an altnet provider. I see an article here https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/08/wefibr...
They are rolling out FTTP in your area.

There are many Altnet FTTP providers that don't appear in a SamKnows or general Uswitch postcode checker. These only show availability. But they don't show whether an Altnet provider is coming to your area. Sometimes you have to manually search the official websites of these Altnet providers and enter postcodes there and see if any wayleaves have passed or whether they are considering building soon.

Example, SamKnows is showing BT FTTP as available for my postcode. BT FTTP broadband availability

"You are connected to the Bishopsgate telephone exchange."

"FTTP is available in your area"

This is false, I don't have Openreach FTTP and no plans for Openreach FTTP either. It's also showing availability for FTTC in a building next to me Kensington Apartments (E1 6LW and E1 6NE) when I know they don't have it. But they have CommunityFibre, which SamKnows does not display.

I have another apartment in Central London that I rent out. Sidney Street E1 2HH. Again, no FTTC. However, they have FTTP from CommunityFibre and will get Hyperoptic in August. I had to manually do these searches myself to find out.

Thanks for the advice i know they are installing FTTP in the next town but to be honest i don't need the extra speed i only stream Netflix in HD and even when we are all online we don't suffer buffering in fact i was thinking of dropping to fibre 35 if i cannot get a good deal from the Talktalk retention team
(before i found out Vodafone is available)

You are right, most of us don't need more than 80Mbps. Even 35Mbps may be enough for streaming, browsing, gaming, etc. The problem is that not all people on FTTC get decent speeds like in the case of the OP.

Like for example I am getting 76Mbps router sync speeds instead of 80Mbps that I normally did last 2 years. I might not complain about that small drop, but everyone would want to sync at full speeds without worrying about crosstalk, congestion, line length, noise margins, DLM, etc.

FTTC and the lack of symmetrical speeds is a drawback. There are cheaper packages currently like Onestream that offer 80Mbps FTTC for £19.95, Now Broadband for £20 and Pop Telecom for £22.99. Sure that will save me money and I would switch if I knew FTTP wasn't coming!

But in my case since CommunityFibre will come to my area I'll probably switch to the 500Mbps for £27 a month. Even though I don't need 500Mbps at all, it is better value for the ratio of what I'll save on FTTC.

Broadband is relatively cheap. It is the energy cost that is the biggest problem right now. I can afford to pay a few quid extra a month for broadband, that's not a problem especially if I know it is FTTP.

Most of us use an FTTC service because we don't have a better option available yet! When the whole country gets upgraded to FTTP eventually I don't see any reason why any one of us would stick to FTTC other than price factor being the reason.

My only worry with Altnets is that they might price hike at the end of contract and then I might have to go back to FTTC temporarily. But if Openreach FTTP comes we won't have that problem as we will get to choose a new provider on the existing network. When that happens pretty much FTTC will be retired.

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Most of us use an FTTC service because we don't have a better option available yet! When the whole country gets upgraded to FTTP eventually I don't see any reason why any one of us would stick to FTTC other than price factor being the reason.

By the time we get FTTP i have no doubt we will need it.

In reply to a post by Jack_Hackett:

In reply to a post by BLaZiNgSPEED:

Most of us use an FTTC service because we don't have a better option available yet! When the whole country gets upgraded to FTTP eventually I don't see any reason why any one of us would stick to FTTC other than price factor being the reason.

By the time we get FTTP i have no doubt we will need it.

Yeah ofcourse!
FTTP prices will also naturally drop and will be on par with FTTC. Even if theoretically we were all fine with FTTC after 10 years, most people will still switch to FTTP. Let's say in 8 years by 2030 at least 97% of the country should be upgraded with FTTP.

But in the case of the OPs friend receiving only 20Mbps a switch is definitely needed. He has not responded to this thread judging by his profile, only 2 posts (threads) in 15 years!

I'm curious to know whether his friend's broadband checker shows as 20Mbps being the max attainable speed. I am aware some people do get very low speeds on FTTC, but those are few.

In that case his friend must not switch to an 80Mbps FTTC package, but more on the lower tier as it's just going to be waste of money paying extra for only 20Mbps.