FTTP Installs by Sky

I gather Sky now perform the ONT installation on some (all?) FTTP installs where they are the ISP ?

So where's the demarcation point between them, and Openreach. Do OR still go from the 'street DP' and install the CSP, and Sky come along afterwards and splice into that ?

Yep, but I believe the demarcation point would still be the ONT

Yes, because that's still OR's 'device' I presume ?

So, on such an install, presumably OR leave the copper in place, as they are coming in advance of switch-over day (from FTTC to FTTP) and the copper presumably remains in place until it falls down/rots away etc ?

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

So, on such an install, presumably OR leave the copper in place, as they are coming in advance of switch-over day (from FTTC to FTTP) and the copper presumably remains in place until it falls down/rots away etc ?

One of my friends had Sky Fibre installed in Dec, and the copper phone service was left active. No idea when Sky intend to switch over to the voice port on the Sky Hub/Router.

Sky engineers do not have the authority to remove Openreach copper.

No but they could move a BT phone plug (431A) from the openreach copper wall box and plug it into the back of the router/hub.

My installation a couple of months ago saw the BT engineer arrive on a Sunday to install the cable from the pole to a grey box on the outside. The Sky engineer came the following Wednesday to run the fibre from the grey box on the wall to fit the ONT, in a position of my choice. The copper wire is still there and will be for a few years yet apparently..

In reply to a post by Discus:

My installation a couple of months ago saw the BT engineer arrive on a Sunday to install the cable from the pole to a grey box on the outside. The Sky engineer came the following Wednesday to run the fibre from the grey box on the wall to fit the ONT, in a position of my choice. The copper wire is still there and will be for a few years yet apparently..

According to an Openreach engineer, who was running some fibre to another pole a while ago, he said they will eventually remove the copper. Maybe they will get removed as a job lot and then sold.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

Yep, but I believe the demarcation point would still be the ONT

That is what I thought, the ONT belongs to Openreach, just like the master socket does,.

Why do sky have to send people around after? If the ONT is in place and working, then all people have to do is plug in the router. No different to what we do with FTTC and ADSL.

I have heard that Openreach will stick the ONT as close to where the fibre comes into the building as possible, in other words if you want it anywhere else, tough.,

I went to a friend's house a few weeks ago and saw a ZZoomm installation, amazing the fibre comes from the front of the house, though the cellar, up the stairs of the cellar and into the dining room at the back of the house to the ONT. Openreach would not do that, they were not happy that they had to move the splice box at my brother's house as they put it in a stupid place

Openreach will put the ONT more or less where you want as long as the ISP has ordered the correct installation. The services are:

FTTP

For our standard installation, our engineers will:

- connect an optical network terminator (ONT) within 1m of the nearest 13amp power socket and up to 10m from where the fibre enters the building
- run any external cable needed to reach the nearest suitable fibre entry point.
- connect your customer’s router next to the ONT
- connect one device – a set-top box, PC, laptop or smartphone. They won’t connect games consoles, Wi-Fi extenders or mesh network devices, dongles or any other devices which are specific to a communications provider. And they must have been connected to the customers’ network previously.
- upgrade a master socket to the latest NTE5c design if needed

For our premium installation, our engineers will:
- connect an optical network terminator (ONT) within 1m of the nearest 13amp power socket and – if needed - more than 10m and up to 30m from where the fibre enters the building.
- Run more than 15m of external cable to reach the customer’s preferred fibre entry point.
- connect your customer’s router next to the ONT
- connect up to three devices – a set-top box, PC, laptop or smartphone. They won’t connect games consoles, Wi-Fi extenders or mesh network devices, dongles or any other devices which are specific to a communications provider. And they must have been connected to the customers’ network previously.
- carry out Voice Re-injection Installation (VRI), which uses existing internal wiring to make use of traditional telephones.
- map Wi-Fi to help customers find the strongest signal
- upgrade a master socket to the latest NTE5c design if needed

Edited by jpm (Thu 30-Mar-23 09:23:58)

I don't really get the advantage for OR in making an 'Sky' FTTP installation a two stage event ! OR do the outdoor bit, Sky do the indoor bit, has to be on (at least) different half days, and with OR going first. Seems like a lot of admin for a procedure that if split in two can go wrong !

Why not give Sky the same 'authority' (and therefore training) as Kelly or Quinn ?

I think the idea is that you split the jobs up into outside/inside jobs so that when Sky turn up to fit the ONT they can also do internal cabling to your Sky box, set up repeaters, whatever other services they sell. Rather than having Openreach come in to fit the ONT and then Sky come on another appointment to do the internal bits.

At a guess Sky don't want the hassle of having to do training and risk assessments for work out in the Openreach network, and don't want to be responsible for getting the light to the customer premises. They want Openreach to do external work without a customer needing to be home, and then they do the rest - I guess it's a bit like how labour is divided on new builds with FTTP.

From what I have heard from the few people I know that have had Openreach FTTP, Openreach prefers not to take the fibre too far into the house and seems to get ratty if you want to put the ONT on a wall that is not part of the outside wall. Also complains if the socket is not a fixed socket, but an extension, no idea why after all as long as the thing has electric, what is the difference?

They mucked up at my brother's place, they put the splice box on a wall outside where a door would catch it when ever it was opened. That was why it had to be moved.

Not saying Zzoomm don't muck up they certainly do, but at least they don't complain about the placing of the ONT.
If I went for FTTP, I would want the ONT where my router is now, it would not be along run, depending where the fibre comes into the wall.

In reply to a post by jpm:

I think the idea is that you split the jobs up into outside/inside jobs so that when Sky turn up to fit the ONT they can also do internal cabling to your Sky box, set up repeaters, whatever other services they sell. Rather than having Openreach come in to fit the ONT and then Sky come on another appointment to do the internal bits.

At a guess Sky don't want the hassle of having to do training and risk assessments for work out in the Openreach network, and don't want to be responsible for getting the light to the customer premises. They want Openreach to do external work without a customer needing to be home, and then they do the rest - I guess it's a bit like how labour is divided on new builds with FTTP.

Is it only Sky that does it this way?

This is one of the things I mean when I say hassle with having FTTP installed for little or no gain.

When my time comes, I'd really like the CSP to be on the inside gable end wall of my (fully boarded, and lit, and accessed by a proper loft ladder) loft. Then run the internal fibre through a hole into the ceiling of my 'comms cupboard'.

I might be lucky and get someone willing and flexible on the day, or I might not !

I have a white internal CSP in my equipment room where my ONT is also located. There was no hassle and no fuss with the Openreach engineer on the day, he was fantastic. He really didn't want to leave after the job 🤣

+1

In reply to a post by dect:

I have a white internal CSP in my equipment room where my ONT is also located. There was no hassle and no fuss with the Openreach engineer on the day, he was fantastic. He really didn't want to leave after the job 🤣

That's encouraging. The fact he had an 'indoors' CSP in his van is a sign of hope !
Though I would have no objection to the grey 'outdoors' one, fixed inside the loft anyway

I'm sure when people first got copper phone lines installed into their houses there were some people who did a bit more work or engaged a bit more with the man who showed up from Post Office Telephones and got their line installed where they wanted it. You post on this forum so you have access to all the knowledge required to have a successful install performed to your own specifications - if the engineer who shows up doesn't want to install according to the description of a standard install then insist your ISP send someone who will. The requirement to not throw the ONT onto an extension lead is a sensible one, but again if you want to avoid a conflict over it you can just promise that you have an electrician coming out to install a socket, the Openreach engineer isn't going to fight you over it.

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

That's encouraging. The fact he had an 'indoors' CSP in his van is a sign of hope !

Not exactly, but it was sourced.

In reply to a post by jpm:

I'm sure when people first got copper phone lines installed into their houses there were some people who did a bit more work or engaged a bit more with the man who showed up from Post Office Telephones and got their line installed where they wanted it. You post on this forum so you have access to all the knowledge required to have a successful install performed to your own specifications - if the engineer who shows up doesn't want to install according to the description of a standard install then insist your ISP send someone who will. The requirement to not throw the ONT onto an extension lead is a sensible one, but again if you want to avoid a conflict over it you can just promise that you have an electrician coming out to install a socket, the Openreach engineer isn't going to fight you over it.

I very young when we had a phone installed and the only reason it was installed was because my brother started doing a mobile disco, I was told I was not allowed to touch it, LOL. I do remember it being in the hallway and at the time they were wired in, not socket. Most of them were in the hallway. Years ago, home phones were only for the rich, and I doubt very much if they engaged with anyone.

If it is an extension that is clipped in, then it should not be a problem, the cable running to my router is an extension, it looks like a proper socket, but it is not and then there is a 5 way extension on that, clipped to the wall. the other half have the same sort of system, Gigaclear had no problem with it. Openreach seems to have a problem with them.

If I go for FTTP I know where I want the ONT and the router of the fibre depends on where they bring it into the house. Openreach would not doubt bring it in where the original cable is, more or less, that what it looks like they have done via my next door neighbours. As I have said I am in no rush for Fibre, but if I do go then I am looking more at going with Zzoomm, they just need to sort out their reliability problems. Saying that, I have not heard anyone complain on their Facebook page for a couple of days. Oh one have, ZZoomm have left some cable where it should not be.
See, hassle, did not get it with Adsl or FTTC.

When our FTTP was installed it was in one visit by 'Kowboy Communication', the positioning of our old master socket was a PITA, the ONT was positioned where I wanted it, just a pity they couldn't drill the holes correctly.

A few questions from me about ‘FTTP Installs by Sky’.

FTTP via Openreach became available to order at my property at the start of this week & I promptly placed an order via the Sky website to upgrade my current Sky FTTC service to one of their ‘Ultrafast’ packages. During the order process, I was presented with a calendar and prompted to select an install date. I opted for earliest selectable date, which was Tuesday 11th April (day after the Easter bank holiday)

So…this Openreach/Sky hybrid install process. Is this for all orders for Sky Ultrafast, requiring a new fibre connection, or are Openreach (still?) doing the full external/internal work in some cases?

If Openreach are going to do the external work, presumably, this would be before the date I have booked the install for? If my install will be via Openreach & Sky, will I receive any notification from either Sky or Openreach of what date/time Openreach will be doing the external work?

Conscious that the days prior to my install are Bank Holidays & doubt Openreach would be doing any external week on Good Friday or over the Easter weekend/bank holiday?

Annoyingly, the parking situation in my street is not the best & quite a few of my neighbours (& visitors to neighbours) have been parking their cars half on the road/half on the pavement leading up to my house… and on-top of the inspection chamber which I am fairly certain contains the CBT. Would prefer to know when Openreach will be doing the external work so I can be around to ensure that cars are moved to provide access if required (will not be happy if selfish parking delays my install!)

Edited by NGA (Thu 30-Mar-23 22:08:33)

Have you used the DSL checker to determine if you're a '1 Stage' or '2 Stage/KCI2 Assure' install?

In reply to a post by dect:

Have you used the DSL checker to determine if you're a '1 Stage' or '2 Stage/KCI2 Assure' install?

The DSG checker tells me ‘Stage 1’ & ‘Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG premises served by 2.5 Inch plastic duct 56.’

Is the ‘Openreach for external, followed by Sky for internal’ process only relevant/applicable for Stage 2 installs?

In reply to a post by NGA:

The DSL checker tells me ‘Stage 1’ & ‘Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG premises served by 2.5 Inch plastic duct 56.’

Is the ‘Openreach for external, followed by Sky for internal’ process only relevant/applicable for Stage 2 installs?

Things may have changed as they tweaked the process as it matured but I was under the impression that Sky engineers only got involved if it was a '2 stage/KCI2 Assure' but others may be able to confirm.

In reply to a post by burble:

When our FTTP was installed it was in one visit by 'Kowboy Communication', the positioning of our old master socket was a PITA, the ONT was positioned where I wanted it, just a pity they couldn't drill the holes correctly.

Is that Kelly? I have heard a few things about them.

Who are you with?

Edited by zyborg47 (Fri 31-Mar-23 06:41:43)

Openreach do work weekends and have done so for many years, depending on the workstack they often work bank holidays

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by burble:

When our FTTP was installed it was in one visit by 'Kowboy Communication', the positioning of our old master socket was a PITA, the ONT was positioned where I wanted it, just a pity they couldn't drill the holes correctly.

Is that Kelly? I have heard a few things about them.

This is my fear. What ISPs offer the 'Enhanced' FTTP install from Openreach ? I don't need much of what it offers, other than someone who is competent, and has a bit more time on their hands ! I'd pay for that just to avoid atrocities being applied to our house !

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by burble:

When our FTTP was installed it was in one visit by 'Kowboy Communication', the positioning of our old master socket was a PITA, the ONT was positioned where I wanted it, just a pity they couldn't drill the holes correctly.

Is that Kelly? I have heard a few things about them.

Who are you with?

Yes they where the installers, unfortunately I was in hospital at time of install so came back to the bodged job. My ISP was TalkTalk Business, but they just used OR for install, who then subbed it out to Kowboy Communications. This was 2021, two years later so things might be different.

In reply to a post by burble:

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

In reply to a post by burble:

When our FTTP was installed it was in one visit by 'Kowboy Communication', the positioning of our old master socket was a PITA, the ONT was positioned where I wanted it, just a pity they couldn't drill the holes correctly.

Is that Kelly? I have heard a few things about them.

Yes they where the installers, unfortunately I was in hospital at time of install so came back to the bodged job. My ISP was TalkTalk Business, but they just used OR for install, who then subbed it out to Kowboy Communications. This was 2021, two years later so things might be different.

Kelly came in June 2020 to 'reconnect' the phone line and 'install' FTTC at our present home. (It had been empty and dilapidated for several years and we rebuilt it, more or less from the ground up in 2019/20)
I'd taken down the (inactive) phone line when the roof came off (fortunately the feed pole is in our front garden, so no big deal)
I put the line back up, and reinstalled the master socket in my newly built comms cupboard well inside the property a few weeks before requesting reconnection.

The bloke from Kelly turned up, didn't bat an eyelid at what I'd done (why would he !) and flounced off to the cabinet to re-jumper the line. Took 10 mins, he then sat for an hour in his van having lunch (etc) Nice easy job there, and no chance of causing collateral damage !

Did similar at a friends place, unclipped the drop wire from the front wall of the house, jointed it to a new length of cable at the eaves with a new closure, diverted it through the roof space and down into a comms cupboard in the centre of the property with an NTE fitted. The Openreach engineer didn't care that it was obviously not something that they had been responsible for, all the cable spec was correct and the line performed as it should.

In reply to a post by jpm:

Did similar at a friends place, unclipped the drop wire from the front wall of the house, jointed it to a new length of cable at the eaves with a new closure, diverted it through the roof space and down into a comms cupboard in the centre of the property with an NTE fitted. The Openreach engineer didn't care that it was obviously not something that they had been responsible for, all the cable spec was correct and the line performed as it should.

Good stuff. Yes, it's easy to obtain Openreach ins mats etc on ebay. I even ended up with a brand new junction box, with BT's 1980s 'T' logo stamped into it, which added to the authenticity (well, after 3 years of UV and weathering up there now) !

I did get some stainless steel screws to attach the triangular galvanised drop cable anchor though

Edited by broadbandjockey (Fri 31-Mar-23 15:17:21)

I concur, the Openreach part of my installation was completed on a Sunday, 3 days before the Sky engineer arrived to complete the job. The bloke installing mine had been brought down from Scotland for 3 weeks to cover the workload.

Mark

I have a hunch that Sky are selling a bucket load of FTTP at the moment and this is leading to a lot of Openreach activity keeping on top of the 'step one' tasks and moving engineers to service the hot areas.


At this time it's all about takeup for all the players.

In reply to a post by burble:

Yes they where the installers, unfortunately I was in hospital at time of install so came back to the bodged job. My ISP was TalkTalk Business, but they just used OR for install, who then subbed it out to Kowboy Communications. This was 2021, two years later so things might be different.

It does make me worry that I would get them if I went for openreach FTTP, I don't think things are any different from what I have heard

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

It does make me worry that I would get them if I went for openreach FTTP

Its not something you should ever be worried about, if you're present on the day and you follow the Kowboy around like a shadow during the install they will either push the job back because they know you're not going to be happy with their workmanship or they take the hint and do a decent job. Either way its your property and don't let them do anything you wont be happy with.

PS - I always use to hate the customer following me around but it did keep me on my toes so who am I to complain.

In reply to a post by dect:

Its not something you should ever be worried about, if you're present on the day and you follow the Kowboy around like a shadow during the install they will either push the job back because they know you're not going to be happy with their workmanship or they take the hint and do a decent job. Either way its your property and don't let them do anything you wont be happy with.

PS - I always use to hate the customer following me around but it did keep me on my toes so who am I to complain.

I hate following workmen around, I will chat to them, but the following nope.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

I hate following workmen around, I will chat to them, but the following nope.

With the greatest respect its your choice but don't complain if you get a bad install by Kowboys if you ever order some form of full fibre.

In reply to a post by dect:

With the greatest respect its your choice but don't complain if you get a bad install by Kowboys if you ever order some form of full fibre.

At the end of the day, they are supposed to know what they are doing, it is like when someone comes to service my gas boiler, I just let them get on with it as they are supposed to know what they are doing.

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

At the end of the day, they are supposed to know what they are doing, it is like when someone comes to service my gas boiler, I just let them get on with it as they are supposed to know what they are doing.

Surprised you're so trusting of Kowboy communications considering everything I've heard from you over the last few years on a range of topics. As I said its your choice but personally I couldn't be more happier with my full fibre install.

Edited by deleted (Sat 01-Apr-23 22:54:55)

In reply to a post by dect:

Surprised you're so trusting of Kowboy communications considering everything I've heard from you over the last few years on a range of topics. As I said its your choice but personally I couldn't be more happier with my full fibre install.

What makes you think I trust them? I certainly don't trust them, any more than i trust others. This is one of the reason why I have decided to stay with FTTC,

In reply to a post by zyborg47:

What makes you think I trust them? I certainly don't trust them, any more than i trust others. This is one of the reason why I have decided to stay with FTTC,

Your lack of trust is in them doing a bad job (right!), I suggested a way of you getting a good job done but you quickly dismissed my suggestion (as thats not what you do) and continued on your crusade about being worried about not getting a good job done and staying on FTTC for that reason.

[dect puts his head in his hands]

Edited by deleted (Sun 02-Apr-23 09:50:56)

I think at some point the desires of specific members to bend every discussion towards their own personal circumstances need to stop being indulged, the threads just end up getting massively derailed.

In reply to a post by jpm:

I think at some point the desires of specific members to bend every discussion towards their own personal circumstances need to stop being indulged, the threads just end up getting massively derailed.

There are some on any discussion board who will reply to any post directed at them... the solution isn't rocket science.

eta- Yes, he can be dogged (and sometimes frustrating) in sticking to his point of view, but he's far from the only one.

Edited by billford (Sun 02-Apr-23 10:21:45)

In reply to a post by broadbandjockey:

I gather Sky now perform the ONT installation on some (all?) FTTP installs where they are the ISP ?

So where's the demarcation point between them, and Openreach. Do OR still go from the 'street DP' and install the CSP, and Sky come along afterwards and splice into that ?

It’s the exact same demarcation as any other Openreach FTTP installation; the Ethernet port on the ONT.

Sky and Openreach entered into an arrangement, where Sky engineers were able to install the internal leg from the CSP, rather than Openreach. Effectively the Sky engineers were acting like (another) Openreach FTTP installation subcontractor.

However that doesn’t change the service demarcation.

Any future moves to another Openreach-based ISP would work with the installed infrastructure in the same way as if Openreach (or one of their sub’s) had installed it originally.

[…doing my best to bring this thread back on track slightly 😀]

In reply to a post by jpm:

I think at some point the desires of specific members to bend every discussion towards their own personal circumstances need to stop being indulged, the threads just end up getting massively derailed.

Sorry, I take your point and looking back seems others have already got that message apart from me

In reply to a post by jpm:

I think at some point the desires of specific members to bend every discussion towards their own personal circumstances need to stop being indulged, the threads just end up getting massively derailed.

theres two different things from "my experience" to "lets hijack the thread and make it about me" that hasn't happened in this thread.