Speed halved??

I Just noticed tonight that my speed was slower than usual so i did a speedtest and it had gone from the usual 16 meg to 7 meg??
I looked at the Orange website and it says my max speed it 8 meg?? Weird when I've signed up to the 20 meg service and have been recieving it for a year now.
The Sam Knows site says my exchange Tutbury (DE13 9NL) has the LLU still on it.

What do i do now? Just pay them for half a service? I really dont want to be the person I phone tomorrow, I'm gonna tear them a new [censored]. Is this even legal? Surely they cant bill me for Home Max 20 meg bb then take it away??

Edited by deleted (Wed 10-Aug-11 02:14:35)

They have been changing lines from LLU back to BT-based services.

Are you able to run a BT speedtest at http://speedtester.bt.com ?

Matt

yes.
Download speedachieved during the test was - 6476 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8128 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7150 Kbps

According to sam knows, my exchange is still LLU though??
Have they just forced me off a service i chose specifically because of the speed? And even worse, still charging me for it?
Does this mean that the other two companys listed as LLU 'talk talk' and 'aol' will be forcing their users off too?

No, Orange have handed their network over, to be managed by BT.

Part of this involves moving users from their LLU kit to BT-based kit. It would appear you've been put back on a BT up to 8Mb service. I can only assume because 21CN (ADSL2+) via BT isn't available there yet.

Other providers are not doing this.

Matt

Edited by uno (Wed 10-Aug-11 03:59:14)

So me complaining to Orange wont do anything but if I went with talk talk i would get my normal service resumed?

I did check my number via the website and even though it says it's LLU for talk talk, it still said i could only get 8 meg??

I doubt complaining would get you anywhere.

If Talk Talk have capacity, that may be an option for you, yes.

Matt

I'm asuming i'd be within my rights to change provider seen as they have broken their contract with me.

So, it's either talk talk or wait for this 21CN to arrive, which there are no plans for on my exchange.

Cant believe how angry i am right now.

In reply to a post by garyparson:

I'm asuming i'd be within my rights to change provider seen as they have broken their contract with me.

So, it's either talk talk or wait for this 21CN to arrive, which there are no plans for on my exchange.

Cant believe how angry i am right now.

Hi, you�re on 8Meg Max with the downstream speed 448Kbps

As you say, there is no sign of 21CN WBC at your Tutbury exchange and it�s not even on the proposed list yet.

https://www.btwholesale.com/pages/downloads/Communit...

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/EMTUTBU

Watch what you are doing with TalkTalk it can cost you to get back to BT.

8 meg isnt happening for me.. signed up for talk talk today. f you orange.

You should have received an email by way of notice "Subject: Improvements to your broadband service":

We're contacting you to let you know about some improvements we're making to your Orange broadband service. We expect that these improvements will mean a better quality connection, faster speeds and a better all-round internet experience for you.

They obviously didn't!

As others have observed Orange has handed over their BB to BT Wholesale White Label Service to manage and decommissioned their LLU network. As a result you have been moved from "up to 20 Meg" LLU to "up to 8 Meg" 20CN IPStream ADSL Max, as your exchange has not been 21CN'ed. This forum has been full of this fact for at least 4 months.

I recall getting an email a while ago but that had long passed the date they mentioned. I'd take them to court over the wording of that as well. They'd lose.

That;s cuz your exchange wasn't 21CN, so they kept you on LLU until they decommissioned it and then put you on 20CN ADSL Max.

I am on the codsall exchange and having noticed that my speed had gone from 13mps to 1 so i rang orange. They said they were migrating their service to a different system and i was in a test environment where they would check what my line would handle. I am not technologically minded so am i right in thinking that i am going to the Bt service as discussed and will get only the 8mps service from now on? AOL and Talktalk have LLU on my exchange, would i get back to my previoous speeds with them? My router stats are connection speed 8128 line 19.1db noise margin 12.2 on download. Have i lost my 13mps forever with orange?

Edited by deleted (Thu 11-Aug-11 09:55:42)

Forever no - depends on what date has been set for WBC on your exchange

I have looked on the BT and sam knows and cant see a date for an upgrade. Presume the upgrade would be to infinity? I am in a fairly rural area so cant see it being a priority. Talk talk have llu on my exchange, am i likely to get back to the previous speeds with them?

No the upgrade would be to 21/WBC product which is ADSL2+

Infinity is the BT Retail name for FTTC which is installed by Openreach and is the up to 40Meg product

I understand now. Until i get the 21/WBC upgrade on my exchange i am going to suffer a 6mps reduction in speed unless i change to talk talk or aol and they might not get me back to my old speed. And as i am 6 months into an 18 month contract with orange i am going to find it difficult to leave.

Orange have changed your conditions to your significant detriment. Ergo you may leave without charge.

I will ring them and see what they say but i cant see them being too understanding. Talk talk was a horror show a few years ago. Are they now a decent proposition as a broadband and phone provider?

Talktalk are reasonable, so long as you dont use phone support and use their web based support.

Service is generally fine.

Have rung Orange and unsurprisingly they are refusing to let me out of the contract which has 11 months to go without a payment of £82. Have managed to spring a free month out of them but am not well chuffed. Will wait until July next year then will almost certainly leave.

In reply to a post by shep1968:

Have rung Orange and unsurprisingly they are refusing to let me out of the contract which has 11 months to go without a payment of £82. Have managed to spring a free month out of them but am not well chuffed. Will wait until July next year then will almost certainly leave.

Hi, looking on the bright side, your exchange could be upgraded to 21CN WBC before July 2012.

I am in a rural area and there is no sign on the BT list of any upgrade to the Codsall exchange by the end of next year. I have been with orange since the freeserve days, will be leaving next year.

Edited by deleted (Thu 11-Aug-11 16:42:50)

In reply to a post by shep1968:

Have rung Orange and unsurprisingly they are refusing to let me out of the contract which has 11 months to go without a payment of £82.

This is bad. if you signed up to an up to 20Meg service, since your service is not now capable of meeting that due to a change made by Orange. See their complaints procedure at http://www1.orange.co.uk/codesofpractice/#code and I'd urge you to folow it, keeping matters in writing (e-mail will do through the contact form on their website, or write by letter to their contact address in Sunderland); and once you have complained to them and received an unsatisfactory substantive response then refer the matter with the copy correspondence (cut and paste) using the IPSA on-line form at http://www.ispa.org.uk/complaints/. (It worked for me with a very unco-operative ISP).

Orange are good at doing this, I was cut off for 24 hours and moved, without notice, to IPStream where I was told that the maximum speed my line could handle was 2MB. I explained that I was on Sky Connect before Orange and it was BT Wholesale who ran that and I could get 4.6MB on that and I had proof, 2 engineer visits a manual re tuning of my noise margin (from 16dB back to 5dB) and 3 months later I am getting speeds of 4.3MB. A far cry from the bull they tried to palm me off with. Have been promised 3 months free on top of the 3 months I have already had. All because I stuck to my guns, researched the subject before talking to Orange and kept emailing the CEO (only getting the executive office I know but it seems to have done the trick). The only issue I have now is the contention on the line as my exchange was listed as one of those with capacity issues. BT have known about this since at least 2009 as that was my reason for leaving Sky (my speeds dropped to 0.2MB at peak times and Sky agreed that this was unacceptable). BT advised Sky that there would be no quick resolution on this as it was a capacity issue. The estimate is for us to have to wait until December 2011 before something is done, having to wait for more than 2 years is an astoundingly bad decision from BT especially as they know fine well that there are hundreds of new properties being built all over the area that this exchange covers. Orange are slightly better in that the speeds only drop to 1.2MB but this makes playing any games on Facebook a slow and frustrating experience for my wife (who is very vocal on this matter). It goes to show that if you are firm enough, keep your cool and state clearly what you expect (without seeming unreasonable) and when suitably motivated (by threats to open a formal complaint with their ADR provider) and a demonstration that you know when you are being fed bull, then there can be a good(ish) outcome. On another note to shep1968 and MrSaffron, Talk Talk are still the pits, 7 weeks my sister has been waiting on a new router (4 from phone support, 3 from web support), Talk Talks advice "See if you can borrow one from a neighbour in the meantime". Same old garbage customer service in my opinion.

Yes, I can vouch for a formal written complaint being more effective than just talking to ignorant Call Centre script monkeys.

Post deleted by Sadoldman

Don't tell me to [censored] Orange! They haven't broken any contract with me!

Oddly many people with Sky Connect on exchanges switching to other IPStream can get a good service...i.e. Connect suffers a lot from the contention caused by Sky not buying enough capacity on its Central elements.

It is possible you had some exchange based contention on top of Sky Connect issues.

TalkTalk - yes customer service still not great.

Quiet why Orange sent engineers out to tweak noise margin when this is something done from the comfort of a call centre desk I've no idea.

That sort of language is not acceptable.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Quite why Orange sent engineers out to tweak noise margin when this is something done from the comfort of a call centre desk I've no idea.

From my own experience, I would guess a breakdown of communication between Orange non-technical staff and BT Wholesale.

You tell Orange that your line is running slower than what it should/did in the past and that it needs a reduction in NM to fix. Orange haven't the knowledge to understand this and just tell BTW, who actually runs their BB, that there is something unspecific wrong with your line. So BTW commissions OR engs to visit and test your line. They find nothing wrong with it and report back that the NM needs tweaking. Eventually BTW reduces the NM as originally suggested and all is hunky dory .

Just out of curiosity, why are they moving customers off LLU kit? Surely that's a waste of man hours? I asume it's cheaper for them somehow?

Orange aren't very forthcoming. But I think you're bang on with costs: they lost about 25% of their customer base for home broadband over the last couple of years and changed their contracted support engineers (they don't directly employ any for fixed broadband) to BT (who of course have to maintain their own kit anyway), and the decomissioning was part of that contract. Their financial reports are all about saving money to pay back the Orange UK JV's loans to its parents (two of the most indebted European companies!). So as BT offer the whole package (including customer support) as a "white label" which Orange can brand . . . go figure, as they say!

Orange has got into bed with BT! In effect they have subcontracted BT to manage their BB while Orange do the marketing and billing. For a fee of course, but I'm sure their accountants have done the sums. Orange no longer has to maintain their network infrastructure, so that must be a huge saving. Doubt if many man-hours are lost; it must be just a matter of BT throwing a switch in the exchange, just like when you migrate ISPs.

I'm not sure who does the support. There has been a slight improvement lately, so it could be BT or could be Orange staff being moved to BT.

so how does swapping from LLU to regular broadband save them money?

In reply to a post by garyparson:

Just out of curiosity, why are they moving customers off LLU kit? Surely that's a waste of man hours? I asume it's cheaper for them somehow?

I reckon Orange is looking ahead, now is the right time to get out of LLU when they can still sell-on the gear� maybe to TalkTalk.

http://www.fttcbroadband.co.uk/tag/orange/

http://www.cxo.eu.com/news/orange-favours-bt-broadband/

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/broadband/357307/orange-...

I would understand that if they took people off the service in an exchange that has the newer speeds but as mine hasnt it makes no sense whatsoever??

In reply to a post by garyparson:

I would understand that if they took people off the service in an exchange that has the newer speeds but as mine hasnt it makes no sense whatsoever??

Was it BT (just left to "get on with it" by Orange)? When it comes to Orange's bottom line I suspect they see the opportunity to sign up more customers on a competitive price on the 21CN exchanges (which are growing and exceed the number of their former unbundled exchanges which had stalled), than the no. of upset LLU customers now stuck on 20CN. That's life in modern business. You can't serve anybody if you don't turn a profit: like you have to breathe to live. They're not the first ISP to "abandon" unprofitable customers; and won't be the last!

EDIT: I suspect Orange have to pay BT to rent LLU DSLAM space in the exchange; and as the main benefit of LLU in term of costs was avoiding high backhaul costs, but Orange (unlike Sky, TT, C&W and O2) didn't have their own backhaul or buy in an ISP that did, I always found it madness that Orange maintained their LLU for as long as they did, not that they've now abandoned it.

Edited by deleted (Sun 14-Aug-11 11:38:14)

Expanding LLU means spending capital money and ties funds up

Also there is a lack of people experienced in running broadband, i.e. the good people are not cheap

Less need for expensive technical staff and updating old LLU hardware

Though it is described as a custom product, once I get time in Sept/Oct will meet Orange to talk about how custom, compared to usual WBC white label offerings

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

No the upgrade would be to 21/WBC product which is ADSL2+

Infinity is the BT Retail name for FTTC which is installed by Openreach and is the up to 40Meg product

Sam knows has now changed the status of my exchange and gives the following message.
21CN WBC status: RFS date set : 31/03/2012

Does this mean that the exchange will be upgraded by then or simply a date decided by then? What additional speed could i expect from the upgrade as a rule of thumb if i am currently getting 5 mps

RFS = ready for service and as far as I'm aware is achieved for most exchanges, unless (rarely) the date changes beforehand. You might need to prod Orange thereafter to "move" your service over, though it ought to happen anyway.

Fill in the relevant details from your Router's connection details and a speed projection is available from TBB's Andrew's calculator at http://www.farina1.com/adsl/ . Look down the page for ADSL2+. Livebox stats: see http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php .At 5Meg I suspect an increase won't be huge due to distance from the exchange: a graph showing the impact of distance from the exchange (or attenuation) on speeds can be seen at: http://www.internode.on.net/residential/adsl_broadba... .

(If you're a real patient optimist though and as me have probably more money than sense, my line struggled to achieve 5Mbps on WBC (went as low as 2Mbps on Orange LLU), and now on fibre (FTTC) I can get downloads in excess of 30Mbps, synching at 33.625!).

Edited by deleted (Mon 22-Aug-11 21:10:01)

On Talk Talk now and back on my nice speed again. Thanks Orange but no thanks. Shove your 7 meg up your a...e. I vote with my wallet and you aint getting my dollar. bye.

Good; but just watch your wallet. I've moved too, to fibre (with a MAC). But Orange are showing a reluctance to close my account (which I've escalated with a complaint through ISPA). There appears to be the odd horror stories emerging of Orange threatening ex-customers with debt collectors after cancellation of the DD after a move (I believe they have their own debt collection agency for this purpose).

As a precaution it's always best to notify Orange (though it's done me a fat lot of good), even though t&cs state closure is automatic 14 days after use of MAC (if you need one for TT?) so contractually you have to pay an extra 0.5m month fee in any case. I understand OR notify Orange of a transfer (but TT won't I suspect!).

Seems like Orange learnt the wrong lesson from Ofcom's fine on TT's ex-Tiscali unit for doing the same thing!

Edited by deleted (Fri 26-Aug-11 10:40:02)

Sam knows have said that my exchange (Codsall) has now been upgraded to 21 Cn WBC but having spoken to Orange they say that this is not the case and i am not eligible to transfer onto the faster service. speedtester.bt.com states that i have a 7150 max speed. Does anybody know what i should do now apart from potentially leave orange?

What does BT Broadband Availability Checker say about ADSL2+?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

What does BT Broadband Availability Checker say about ADSL2+?

For Telephone Number xxx on Exchange CODSALL Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband service that provides a fixed line speed up to 2Mbps.Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL Max broadband line speed of 7.5Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 6.5Mbps and 8Mbps.Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL2+ broadband line speed of 17Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 10Mbps and 19.5Mbps. Our test also indicates that your line could support an estimated ADSL 2+ Annex-M broadband upstream line speed of 1.5Mbps and downstream line speed of 17Mbps; typically the downstream speed would range between 10Mbps and 19.5Mbps.The actual stable line speed supportable will be determined during the first 10 days of use. This speed may change over time, to ensure line stability is maintained.Thank you for your interest.Please note that postcode and address check results are indicative only. Most accurate results can be obtained from a telephone number check. Note: If you already have a Broadband service enabled on this line and you want to switch service providers, you will need to contact both your current provider and your new provider to get your service changed over new and existing service provider to have this service transferred.

In reply to a post by shep1968:

Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL2+ broadband line speed of 17Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 10Mbps and 19.5Mbps.

proves your exchange has been upgraded to WBC ADSL2+.

Orange may be claiming you are not eligible for it because you were previously on 20CN Adsl Max at the time of the LLU decommissioning and that you need to take out a new contract in order to get it.

Have you tried to see what Your Account / Change your Package @ Orange webisite offers you?

Just wondering if this is another example of where the exchange may be upgraded, but existing broadband users are not automatically upgraded to the ADSL2+ higher speeds, until the supplier transfers them which means in Orange's case until BTw (their supplier) gets around to it, which can be up to 12 months later. It might be earlier, but it is not in Orange's control.

Other Providers operate differently for their existing customers, though generally not those who (like Orange) brand the BTw "white label service" under their own name. All new or transferred connections at your exchange should now be provisioned on 21CN or LLU depending on the Provider.

Orange are not in breach of contract so this is not a case in which you can expect to be allowed to leave without additional cost if you are in the minimum term of your contract.

Edited by deleted (Fri 06-Jan-12 00:53:16)

In reply to a post by smurf46:

Just wondering if this is another example of where the exchange may be upgraded, but existing broadband users are not automatically upgraded to the ADSL2+ higher speeds, until the supplier transfers them which means in Orange's case until BTw (their supplier) gets around to it, which can be up to 12 months later. It might be earlier, but it is not in Orange's control.

Other Providers operate differently for their existing customers, though generally not those who (like Orange) brand the BTw "white label service" under their own name. All new or transferred connections at your exchange should now be provisioned on 21CN or LLU depending on the Provider.

Orange are not in breach of contract so this is not a case in which you can expect to be allowed to leave without additional cost if you are in the minimum term of your contract.

I rang orange and got put through to their call centre in India. They had never heard of adsl+!! They tried telling me to clear the cache etc which did no good. I subsequently spoke to the upgrade team and was told that i was on an old package and the new one would give me the spped that i wanted. Have signed up for another year at a small increase in cost to get it. Orange customer service is poor but the broadband always works so am minded to stay with them. Thanks to all for their help on this matter.

Well i have made the switch and orange has said they will transfer me to the adsl+ service and spend 10 days testing my line. However my router is still saying that the downspeed connection speed is 8128 kbps. Will something from them actually change this and override this setting or do i need to contact them again to ensure that i move. I spoke to them on Saturday so they have had two days to set things in motion.

First sign of being on the 21CN WBC ADSL2+ service will be the upstream speeds change, as the training only applies to the downstream, and that usually starts at the faster speeds and only reduces if things look unstable.

Well three working days on from asking to swap i have received an email from orange saying what i should be getting and the new price but surprise surprise no difference in the speed of service. The downstream router setting still says 8128 and no increase in upstream speed. I know they take 10 days to check the line but when realistically should i get a noticable increase in speed and will those static figures on my router change?

Should see the change in connection speed within seconds of the line moving from ADSL to ADSL2+, i.e. IPStream to 21CN WBC.

It may wander down in a speed from the initial speed if it is unstable.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Should see the change in connection speed within seconds of the line moving from ADSL to ADSL2+, i.e. IPStream to 21CN WBC.

It may wander down in a speed from the initial speed if it is unstable.

Will there be any indication on my router if i login to it whether the change has been made or will it simply be by doing a speed test? I was told by orange that as the router downsteam speed is set at 8128 kbps i was not on adsl2+, will this figure change?

Router stats always trump speedtests.

In reply to a post by shep1968:

I was told by orange that as the router downsteam speed is set at 8128 kbps i was not on adsl2+

Have you checked that your router's ADSL Mode Setting (not status) is set to either Auto or ADSL2+?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

Router stats always trump speedtests.

In reply to a post by shep1968:

I was told by orange that as the router downsteam speed is set at 8128 kbps i was not on adsl2+

Have you checked that your router's ADSL Mode Setting (not status) is set to either Auto or ADSL2+?

The router is set to Auto (multimode). I have the options of this, adsl(G.MDT), ADSL2 and ADSL2+. If i change it to the last of these i assume i would get no broadband if this service wasnt being pumped to me.

In reply to a post by shep1968:

If i change it to the last of these i assume i would get no broadband if this service wasnt being pumped to me.

You can assume but there's nothing like trying

In reply to a post by shep1968:

Well three working days on from asking to swap i have received an email from orange saying what i should be getting and the new price but surprise surprise no difference in the speed of service. The downstream router setting still says 8128 and no increase in upstream speed. I know they take 10 days to check the line but when realistically should i get a noticable increase in speed and will those static figures on my router change?

Hi, if your speeds are 8128 Kbps downstream, 448 Kbps upstream, you are still on 8 Meg Max. On WBC at first it will be 800 Kbps upstream, and within the 10-day training period increase to 1100 Kbps upstream.

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/CMCOD

In reply to a post by E7er:

within the 10-day training period increase to 1100 Kbps upstream.

Unless it chooses Interleaved.

Edited by XRaySpeX (Sat 14-Jan-12 06:30:54)