Please help :(

Hi all, first post here though I've used this site a lot in the past for help and advice, I am at the end of my tether with my broadband problems.

I am with XILO my exchange is not unbundled or at least I can't get LLU, I am a little out in the sticks but not far enough to warrent these problems.

Basically I cannot get a reliable broadband conenction at ANY speed. My line should easily be stable at 3mbs (as told by bt engineer who came out) but I cannot get a stable connection even at 0.1mbs! My sync rate is at the time of writing :

ADSL Information ( SDSLADSL Firmware Version: 232201_A)
ATM Statistics TX Cells RX Cells TX CRC errs RX CRC errs
32117 130112 0 1
SDSL StatusADSL Status Mode State Up Speed Down Speed SNR Margin Loop Att.
G.DMT SHOWTIME 768000 1600000 15 58

but the sync rate is one nminute around 2mb down and 800kb up and the next minute it could be 200kb down and still around 800kb up....the upload speed i obtain is usually around 0.7mbs and my ping is as low as 16ms, geeat for gaming when its not disconnecting!

I get HUGE amounts of disconnects and bt continually lower my ip profile until i get speeds like 0.1mbs down. However i know for a fact it can be stable at 3mbs, and was so for 4 days no problems after i re-trained the line...and then the problems start again. I get huge amounts of crc errors. I have tried EVERYTHING, test socket, 4 different routers, huge number of filters, wired, wireless, sfi callout at a cost of £200 and he felt terrible as he knew i had a big problem but apparently the line tested fine?!

He also told me he knows for a fact people much further down the road from the exhcnage get perfectly stable 3mbs connections.

My neighbour is on talk talk and his problems are identical to mine, however being 82 and a rare net user he doesnt really notice, or care.

I cant understand what is causing these errors, or why it sometimes is fine for hours, or days at a time, then other times im getting 100's of crc errors a second and connection drops over and over.

I really don't know where else to try. Xilos support is VERY good but I think they are out of ideas to try and BT are not being much help at all.

They have taken me off DLM and im meant to be on a fixed 15db snr margin however i am yet to see it stable at 15db once...its 14 one minute then 16 the next.

When I wasnt on a fixed snr it could sometimes hold a stable snr at 6db for hours or days, but other times it would be all over the place on the router stats graphs.

I dont suppose anyone here coiuld help more than the support I've already received but I do wonder if changing ISP could change anything at all, or if anyone whos had similar problems have any other ideas that I can try?

I've tried unplugging all sources of electrical interference in my house from microwaves to cordless phones.

My phone line from my house is brand new as of 3 months ago, though I am getting attentuation of 59db as I am a fair distance from the exchange. As far as I can tell voice on the line seems ok, though sometimes even that can be noisey, and then again perfect at other times. And annoyingly there is no pattern AT ALL to when the problems happen, sometimes its mornings sometimes afternoons sometimes night and sometimes not at all!!

If anyone can offer any advice I'd really appreciate it as I cant stand the stupidly slow speed I am up with with no increase in stability whatsoever.

James

ps my line DID have interleaving on for the first couple of months but I was so sick of the problems I got zilo to turn it off just so I could at least enjoy gaming more...it made no noticeable difference to stabilisation its as bad now but not any worse than with interleaving on.

OH! Another slightly odd thing is my sync speeds change all the time, even when the connection doesnt drop , i was online for nearly 60 hours the last few days with about 10 different sync speeds ...xilo told me this shouldn't even be possible to change sync without losing connection but it seems to be happening...

Edited by betterthanpele (Sat 12-Jun-10 14:35:52)

Hi James,

I think this is still in the hands of BT; we've not given up yet.

As far as I know, you've not been charged for the SFI yet as we've disputed this on your behalf as even though the line was RWT (right when tested), you've then had further issues.

Rest assured, we still have your ticket open and are still working on it with you (and BT).

As I believe you spoke with Tom on the phone about, your neighbour(s?) is having the same problem which could be due to REIN (Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise) that is affecting you both. Escalating this to a REIN engineer is often a long process and something that BT are often reluctant to do without sheer persistence.

Edit: Just to add.. small fluctuations in SNR from 15 to 14 or 16, are quite normal. It is clear you have possible noise problems on your line so you'd not expect that to sit nailed at 15. Some routers go in to decimal places, so that could be 14.4 or 16.1 - which are tiny fluctuations. If it was going from 15 > 9 or 15 > 20 - that is more of a problem.

Matt

Edited by uno (Sat 12-Jun-10 14:40:13)

what is the upstream speed and SNR margin ? what router are you using ?

Based on his stats in the post, looks like a Vigor (from the router modem code number).

He mentions the speed is around 700k up.

Matt

In a similar position in that my line is affected by a REIN type of problem, and i have identified the location and at least one type of object that is contributing to the issue, but im unable to get it sorted out, as my isp won't get bt to get the rein engineer involved, but there again even if this where to happen, apart from asking the person responsible to stop using things so that the interference stops there's nothing that they can do, a sad state of affairs really that the telephony network is not protected by law from such interference being inducted from outside sources

HI thanks for the replies. Matt as I've always said I have no issue with Xilo, you are by far the best ISP i've ever used, its horrible that that has coincided with having the worst possible connection I've ever had. I wouldn't hestitate to recommend xilo to anyone.
The problem is looking more and more like rein but it certainly doesnt seem to be me or anything in my house causing it. There are no businesses near by and as I say no pattern to the times or length or interference.
Ive tried a netgear dg834gt, speedtouch 845 v6, us robotics, vigor 2080, and as i say countless variations of filter, and connections. Everything I try is getting me nowhere but when Im not even home and all power is off and it's still happening I guess its time for me to give up trying to find the problem in my house and accept its either the line or someone else causing interference to it.
I could call bt out another 10 times and they might not be here at a time that coincides with the problem.
I've even tried mobile broadband with very limited luck, so don't know where else to turn.

James

so the upstream is marginal and rate adapting - suggest try it on a Home profile (448k upstream) as there's no DLM on the upstream and I have seen bad instability when the upstream won't hold its sync at full speed.

I wouldn't give up just yet.

REIN faults can take time to diagnose and find. Once BT agree to get a REIN engineer on the case, it often involves them visiting the surrounding areas, often for hours, to find the source of the problem.

I know you've asked one neighbour who has the problem but do you speak with any others? It may be worth just asking them if they have the issue too.

Do you have a spare portable MW radio? You might be able to start your own investigations by looking at http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm

Matt

I'll have to look at the ticket when I get back as I seem to recall that BT came back to us with the suggestion of a fixed rate 2Mb product. That would naturally limit the upstream but to a much greater extent.

Matt

apart from asking the person responsible to stop using things so that the interference stops

what sort of thing is causing the problem ?

yarwell, the upstream is nearly always very good, hence me wanting to stay on the office product rather than 448k...its nearly always much faster than my download speed, even with download speeds of 0.1mbs i still get a really high upload speed and really good ping...as I say I can play games fine with no lag at all, and don't want to end up on a fixed 2mb line if it would affect online gaming??
Matt I havent asked other neighbours but will try to. Most of them are fairly old is my worry, my 82 yr old neighbour said his net was fine but let me have a look at his router page and even test out his wireless for a few days, and he definetly has the same problem with talk talk as I do here.
whether other neighbours will willingly let me try their connections or even know what i am talking about I dont know!
Cheers

James

in my experience the upstream being on the limit can cause the symptoms you describe. You should at least try a period on 448 as part of the diagnosis.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

apart from asking the person responsible to stop using things so that the interference stops

what sort of thing is causing the problem ?

Full story here and here.

In reply to a post by yarwell:

apart from asking the person responsible to stop using things so that the interference stops

what sort of thing is causing the problem ?

I believe it to be from the ballasts in the fluorescent lighting, getting into the bt telephony network from an internal extension that is quite possibly in contact with the mains supply to those lights Please see my threads on it Thread 1thread 2 you can see the sort of issues are being caused,
there are quite probably 1000's of ASDL connections that are affected by similar outside interference,and if like in my case where no disconnections are occurring then unless the end user has monitoring software etc then they would not know why throughput was low or erratic and just blame it on congestion etc, if REIN interfered with the Voice side of things then BT would jump through hoops to fix it, and quite possibly seek a change in the law to get the same level of protection as the power companies have

beat me to it,lol

Edited by tommy45 (Sat 12-Jun-10 16:23:59)

Quick ain't I.

I've just had another thought.

If you can enable SNMP and telnet on this router (Edit: the speedtouch) from our admin range, we can setup remote sync/snr/error count monitoring.

If you're able and willing to do that, let us know with the SNMP community name (read only access) and a user that has access to telnet (will need to be a WAN user, not administrator) on the ticket and we'll set it up.

Matt

Edited by uno (Sat 12-Jun-10 16:38:39)

Hi Matt,

Willing to try anything, to confirm you want me to take the vigor off put the speedtouch on and then.... you've lost me a little lol...I will plug it in and see if I can find this SNMP and telent info and put it in the ticket if I can!

Cheers

James

Jus6t realised its a speedtouch 585 v6 not whatever number i made up earlier! Been searching google and seems noone knows how to do the SNMP on it? Would it be easier on the vigor one it seems to have a lot more options!
I added a "WAN_ADMIN" user btw...is that what you meant for the telnet?

James

Can you just confirm the Vigor model number?

vigor 2080

Or do you mean 2820? If the 2820, we just need SNMP to that as we have the OIDs to monitor that already in a template.

Matt

Sorry Matt yes it says 2820vn on it! Really should check before posting lol. Any idea how I do this snmp on it? Are there any security risks etc?

Cheers

James

Under System Maint in the menus, go to Management.

Allow > Allow management from the Internet (but no specific service under that).

Ensure this is not ticked > Disable PING from the Internet

Under access list add 91.199.78.0 / 255.255.255.0/24

Enable > Enable SNMP Agent

Get Community - enter a random string of characters here that you will give us
Set Community - enter a longer random string, no need for these but they have to be set.
Manager Host IP - leave blank
Trap Community - set to the same as "Set Community"
Notification Host IP - leave blank
Trap Timeout - leave on default

Drop us the community on the ticket.

Matt

Hi Matt, support ticket updated, thank you, let me know if I have supplied everything you need.

Cheers

James

as per OP

"As far as I can tell voice on the line seems ok, though sometimes even that can be noisey, and then again perfect at other times"

look like you have a line fault ie noisey due to a hr diss , the line can well test ok even on a PQT ( with laptop and hawk ) but be noisey

you should not have to pay for the sfi just becuse he could not find the fault

thanks bt bert, I am updating this hopefully for other peoples benefit in the future...

the second BT guy came yesterday, I actually had tried to cancel it as I was not getting an errors for a couple of days,,,but it was too late to cancel and I thought I was doomed to face another possible £200 charge and to be told there was "nothing wrong".

Anyway I plugged in my landline phone as I was trying to call Xilo to cancel the sfi...for some reason I tested the phone was plugged in by calling it from my mobile, it rang and I went back to my PC to find xilos number (i should have it on speed dial by now ) anyway! the net was down..i thought thats odd and when it came back up I tried ringing my landline again...i watched on the router stats page and the crc errors were flying up...right until the second I stop ringing the landline...so i thought it must be a filter or phone problem. I swapped the filter and tried again...exactly the same thing...no errors to start..then whilst ringing errors were flying up and theyd stop dead when i stopped ringing.

Anyway so I thought it must be the phone itself, unplugged it completly from the master socket so only the braodband was in, exactly the same thing happened. I even got my friend to phone me several times, and sure enough without fail it happened each and every time (if i picked up the phone and talked, no problem at all, errors stopped dead...its literally just the ringing thats been causing all the problems somehow..)

Shortly after, the BT guy turned up (over an hour earlier than predicted!) I showed him this happening on my pc, he plugged in his own equipment, exactly the same thing happened. This was great and the first progress or sign of a pattern I've had since this all began months ago.
He re-did the wiring at the top and bottom of the pole, and the green box, and even went to the exchange to check it out, but nothing fixed it.

To cut an already long story short I should be getting rein people to investigate this now, and Im hopeful I wont be facing the £400 charges now. It was just pure luck that I found this out just before he arrived. So anyone who is having similar symptoms trying ringing your landline even with no phone plugged in and see if you get the same thing!

In reply to a post by betterthanpele:

..... To cut an already long story short I should be getting rein people to investigate this now......

I doubt that this fault is REIN related.

well nor did I deadbeat but its all the BT guy could think of, if the line and all wiring seems fine what else could it be?

As Bert says, it's probably an HR or high resistance fault caused by a poor joint somewhere. The likely resolution will be a pair swap.

In reply to a post by Deadbeat:

As Bert says, it's probably an HR or high resistance fault caused by a poor joint somewhere. The likely resolution will be a pair swap.

Thats the first thing Xilo said too, I told the BT guy this, he went to exchange to investigate HR dis and found nothing wrong...I THINK the first sfi did a pair swap but I could be wrong!

There is, 100% no way this is a REIN fault. As the others have rightly said, it is most likely an HR fault..... why did the engineer go to the exchange to look for an HR ? Get a pair quality test done, identify the poor leg resistance, measure, then go fix it/swap out pair.

Would this hr dis fault also be affecting my neighbour in the same way? I assumed BT might be right about rein as its not only me affected? Next door seems to have the same problem, though not actually tried to see if his connection is affected by ringing his landline?

An HR fault would really only apply to your pair back to the exchange. However, In the last couple of years, I've had three pair swaps due to HR faults and I've heard a lot of people locally saying the same thing. I think it's probably due to an exponential take up of broadband locally but I'm sure that the local cab being moved underground in an area where there are loads of springs and old wells isn't entirely coincidental.

In reply to a post by betterthanpele:

I've tried unplugging all sources of electrical interference in my house from microwaves to cordless phones.

A good few years ago we were having terrible problems with the original ADSL product not holding a connection for more than a few minutes. Infact it was predictable and would die at exactly 5 mins everytime. (This was back on the old USB voyager modems that needed a dial up networking connection on the desktop)

Had a myriad of BT engineers looking for a cause including the Special Faults guys. Turned out to be a TFT monitor chucking out a bag load of interference from it's power brick. They were able to read the interference from outside at the electricity junction box for the street when it was switched on. When that monitor was completely disconnected everything went fine.

Just helps to absolutely eliminate anything electrical from the equation.

Edited by orly (Wed 16-Jun-10 23:01:24)

The OP's problems only occur when his number is called so it's not a REIN fault.

Edited by Deadbeat (Wed 16-Jun-10 23:12:51)

Perhaps I should have been clearer too before we rule rein out! the problem isn't ONLY when my phone rings, though it happens 100% of the time when it does ring. I also get lots of errors and disconnects seemingly at random. Tonight probably 15 or more loss of sync due to high error counts and my phone has not rung once! I have tried turning everything off including the fridge and its made no difference. My guess is there is more than 1 factor involved in my problem.

No, it's a line fault not rein.

Have you done the somewhat comical "dander around the house with an AM radio at 600khz and listen" trick?

I have tried the am radio thing briefly, but didnt really know what i was looking for...will try again now I have a slightly better understanding of it! This mroning was terrible i was losing sync every few minutes and not one phone call...however i did note i could ring my phone and make it drop at will again...infact if youtube or something is on and the phone rings it has about 2 rings then it drops sync (errors going up about 500 per ring)...if im not using the net the errors go up still but nowhere near as much (20 errors per ring) and it will usually hold sync..
i'm still thinking its a rein AND line problem , which is very annoying as I know its going to take forever to fix!

Edited by betterthanpele (Thu 17-Jun-10 12:13:37)

In reply to a post by betterthanpele:

Perhaps I should have been clearer too before we rule rein out! the problem isn't ONLY when my phone rings, though it happens 100% of the time when it does ring. I also get lots of errors and disconnects seemingly at random.....

These are the symptoms of a worsening HR fault. Sooner or later, the voice side of your comms will become almost unusable too. It's usually at this point that BTo take things seriously.

In reply to a post by betterthanpele:

Would this hr dis fault also be affecting my neighbour in the same way? I assumed BT might be right about rein as its not only me affected? Next door seems to have the same problem, though not actually tried to see if his connection is affected by ringing his landline?

could well be as both your lines may go though a cable joint that is going down .

BT sent out a normal engineer again and they replaced everything from here to the exchange and apparently did a lfit and shift...made no difference at all, so looks like it has to be REIN now afterall Theyre coming today supposedly, I'm not holding my breath though on them finding anything wrong.

In reply to a post by betterthanpele:

BT sent out a normal engineer again and they replaced everything from here to the exchange and apparently did a lfit and shift...made no difference at all, so looks like it has to be REIN now afterall

Doubt it's REIN.

In reply to a post by betterthanpele:

..... replaced everything from here to the exchange....

Someone's telling you porkies. They probably did a pair swap and you've ended up running via the same bad, as Bert pointed out, cable joint.

Thing is if theyve checked the line 3 times now and replaced everything what other possibilities are there? Oh! and for the second day running the REIN people havent turned up. Nice one BT

In reply to a post by Deadbeat:

In reply to a post by betterthanpele:

..... replaced everything from here to the exchange....

Someone's telling you porkies. They probably did a pair swap and you've ended up running via the same bad, as Bert pointed out, cable joint.

Could this bad cable joint be anywhere in the 4-5km distance I am from the exchange then? I suspect porkies are going on because according to xilo they have already done a lift and shift but neither engineer whos been out said they were doing that, the first one was refused it and the second one certainly didnt mention it, just checked the exchange then phoned back to say he couldnt see anything wrong there. and the 3rd visit (the same guy as first) wasn't sure phoned to ask if he could do one and they refused him saying it was definetly rein as it always starts at 9am (which isnt even close to the truth anyway!! 3am last night, it went down for example), plus the ringing problem will happen at will WHATEVER time of day or night it is!
They also said they couldnt do a lift and shift without phoning xilo and getting their permission so it seems odd to me xilo only found out about the lift and shift through bt's notes unless I'm missing something.

Anyway no phone support from xilo as its the weekend so i've wasted half the day yesterday and half the day today with no idea whats going on, I need to go out this afternoon to get a fathers day present (late i know) and no idea if i'm still supposed to be expecting a bt visit or not! I cant speak to bt directly and am in the middle of this whole mess, and worst of all I'd be expected to pay what £600 now for 3 visits amounting to nothing?!

In reply to a post by betterthanpele:

Anyway no phone support from xilo as its the weekend so i've wasted half the day yesterday and half the day today with no idea whats going on, I need to go out this afternoon to get a fathers day present (late i know) and no idea if i'm still supposed to be expecting a bt visit or not! I cant speak to bt directly and am in the middle of this whole mess, and worst of all I'd be expected to pay what £600 now for 3 visits amounting to nothing?!

..but we did reply to your (edit) email this morning saying that the earliest we can query BT on the vist is Monday.

I'm not sure why you think you'll need to pay £600? Only one visit yet was officially charged, which we have not billed you and have already disputed on your behalf as discussed via email/phone earlier in the week.

Since the second visit and the installation of the SSFP - the line has been more stable than before but we feel there is still a problem. However, we can only relay the information BT have given us from the fault on Friday - that another engineer would be there today. Once we find out why that didn't happen - we can then update you accordingly.

Matt

Matt

Edited by uno (Sat 19-Jun-10 18:34:44)

Hi Matt. It's nothing against you or xilo really its just with no phone support I had no idea what was going on. I wrote the above a long time before you replied to the support ticket. It's just incredibly frustrating because I think we both know this rein thing isn't going to solve the problem. And to be let down 2 days in a row by bt takes the biscuit! Also didn't realised they'd only charged for 1 visit as the 3rd guy told me each visit bt would be charging you for 2 hours work. Though he spent half of that on his mobile to another engineer who needed help on another job anyway. And as I said the pair quality test failed 5 times. This seems like a never ending saga!

Oh and the stability always improves over weekend. Tomorrow it probably won't drop at all. But I am on 15db snr and very very slow speeds too and I can still cause errors by incoming calls, i've told everyone I know not to ring my landline too which again may be related to improved stability. But its hardly ideal and I don't think anything bt has done has made the slightest bit of difference. Certainly the slow speed doesn't make any difference to reliability. Last week Thursday morning was terrible so I'll see if its the same this week assuming rein group haven't come and worked miracles by then!

I know - I just wanted to let you know that we're here.

What BT engineers say can often be taken with a large pinch of salt. They often say things that are completely far from the truth.

Each visit is limited to 2 hours in time - that is correct but a charge is not made for each visit.

You're at the top of our list to speak with them about on Monday.

Matt