Continued - Latency / DNS Problems

See http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/f/3966586-c... for the old thread.

So basically what has happened (thanks Roberto):

Since mid-February, my connection has been getting very high latency times. I was initially a BT customer. After around 8 engineer visits, the engineer agreed to replace the line from the pole to the premises and this brought the latency in from around 1000ms-13000ms to around 80ms.
However, this was not the end of the issue. Cutting a long story short, I moved to Aquiss, got interleaving turned off and my pings are now around 40ms.

HOWEVER, on TBB's broadband quality monitor & through general browsing, my 'maximum' latency is still very high. I am a business user who relays on VoIP for calls however I cannot do so now as the latency is too high. Over the past few days, I believe I also have problems with resolving DNS'.

If I do a trace route, it never fully completes the trace for most sites:

Traceroute has started�

traceroute to bbc.co.uk (212.58.224.138), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 2.660 ms 1.912 ms 1.782 ms
2 lns15.the.dsl.enta.net (188.39.0.18) 32.820 ms 35.098 ms 35.882 ms
3 gi1-5.the.dist.dsl.enta.net (188.39.0.17) 36.677 ms 36.069 ms 32.880 ms
4 te2-2.telehouse-east3.dsl.enta.net (78.33.141.81) 35.557 ms 32.031 ms 32.020 ms
5 te5-2.telehouse-east.core.enta.net (62.249.192.121) 32.734 ms 33.599 ms 32.088 ms
6 te5-1.telehouse-east2.core.enta.net (87.127.236.98) 42.000 ms 52.141 ms 41.984 ms
7 212.58.238.177 (212.58.238.177) 34.655 ms 32.628 ms 33.433 ms
8 212.58.238.153 (212.58.238.153) 33.949 ms 33.822 ms 30.924 ms
9 * * *

However, one site it always completes on is a site I visit reguarly, macrumors.com:

Traceroute has started�

traceroute to macrumors.com (74.86.132.180), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 2.317 ms 1.755 ms 1.762 ms
2 lns15.the.dsl.enta.net (188.39.0.18) 29.586 ms 32.716 ms 33.917 ms
3 gi1-5.the.dist.dsl.enta.net (188.39.0.17) 33.644 ms 31.175 ms 29.016 ms
4 te2-2.telehouse-east3.dsl.enta.net (78.33.141.81) 27.532 ms 30.614 ms 31.924 ms
5 te5-2.telehouse-east.core.enta.net (62.249.192.121) 31.521 ms 31.176 ms 29.999 ms
6 te3-1.telecity-hex.core.enta.net (87.127.236.102) 31.806 ms 28.847 ms 28.308 ms
7 tengigabitethernet8-1.ar6.lon3.gblx.net (64.214.147.1) 27.993 ms 60.346 ms 27.808 ms
8 te1-1.cer02.sr01.dal01.networklayer.com (64.215.81.2) 135.872 ms 135.867 ms 136.506 ms
9 po6.dar02.sr01.dal01.networklayer.com (173.192.18.213) 157.536 ms * 160.308 ms
10 po2.fcr03.sr04.dal01.networklayer.com (66.228.118.190) 138.894 ms 140.787 ms 136.124 ms
11 xeeno.com (74.86.132.180) 136.173 ms 141.065 ms 139.866 ms
Traceroute complete.

I have a TBB quality monitor set up at:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/c0c5b5aa41a...

At 10:19 BST, I have just started using the internet connection. It hasn't been used except for early morning and at around 2pm. At 6am I was uploading a video to YouTube.

Every time I actually use the internet connection, it seems that there is a large spike in 'maximum latency'.

I used Visualware's 'Visual Route' and got these results for most sites:
http://i52.tinypic.com/20zah5c.png

I have also tried a number of different DNS servers.

I have disabled every single firewall of all devices on the network. Tried plugging my MacBook Pro directly into the modem with nothing else connected and it still results in high latency.

Is it possible any one could give any advice?

Thanks again, Jack.

Edited by deleted (Mon 02-May-11 22:41:36)

Post deleted by RobertoS

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 02-May-11 22:37:25)

Hi Roberto, just done what you said.

Have edited my post above.

Thanks, Jack.

Edited by deleted (Mon 02-May-11 23:00:30)

Post deleted by RobertoS

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 02-May-11 22:45:26)

Hi Roberto - what did you want the title to be? Is this one ok?

Edited by deleted (Mon 02-May-11 23:00:41)

Post deleted by RobertoS

Done

By the way - does anyone know why I've been getting such high packet loss today? I also noticed this issue on a Sky connection I have... they are very very slow.

Jack

Hi guys - sorry to keep rattling your cage but this is still going on. any ideas?

I haven't read to the end of the other thread.

Did you ever get the line noise issue sorted? If you do a quiet line test with a corded phone and with your router disconnected do you hear noise?

If I unplug the modem and plug a corded phone directly into the master there's a slight bit of background noise. Is that acceptable?

Thanks John.

Jack

If it is a faint rustling noise, that shouldn't be there.

So is that time to call BT up? What if they can't find any faults on the line remotely?

They just say so.

Disconnect your broadband kit and report a voice fault. Don't mention broadband during the report or when the engineer arrives. Get rid of the background hiss before trying to sort out other problems.

Hi Jack,

I thought all the line issues (when considered as a voice line) had actually been resolved. To reinforce what RobertoS has said, when performing a quiet line test you should only notice a "presence", that is to say the electrical circuit has continuity, i.e. it is "alive". There should be no loud hiss, rustling, humming, buzzing, clicking, crackling, etc.

It is unfortunate that we are not able to share audio in the way that you showed us the pictures, in your other post.

Just called them - said there was nothing wrong with the line... should I get another engineer out, will cost £120 if it's my fault but there's been around 8 engineers here and they haven't charged me with my other issues

Should I go for it??

No. If they say the line is OK for noise you have to trust them.

Yeah I understand what you mean - there's definitely some sort of noise and there's only 1 socket through the premises so no need for a direct connection to the master socket.

@john - are you sure? How else would I get this resolved? I had my BT engineer friend out a few weeks ago (see last thread) and he checked all the wiring and said it was fine, have had around 5-6 engineers out and they've looked at the wiring, one replaced the line from the pole to the premises, one done a life and shift and one changed the tie pairs at the exchange (is that the same thing?).

I believe that when there was noise on the line a few weeks ago, BT reported nothing but when they came out they couldn't find anything internally or externally either.

Thanks
Jack

Right - engineer was here today at 8am and said there was nothing wrong with the line and that "noise is normal".

Can't believe this! Has been going on for months. Monthly bill = £160 (that includes unlimited landline calls, £160 all on mobile calls) yet my VoIP provider is just £45 for everything!

In reply to a post by jdowning640:

Right - engineer was here today at 8am and said there was nothing wrong with the line and that "noise is normal".

Big sigh. I hope that what he said was that your line's sound "is normal" and not that "noise on the the line is normal".

Can't believe this! Has been going on for months. Monthly bill = £160 (that includes unlimited landline calls, £160 all on mobile calls) yet my VoIP provider is just £45 for everything!

Ouch!

So still no progress.

He did say you'd get a slight humming sound if you're 3km from exchange

Getting my ISP and my VoIP provider to have a look into it. It's mad!

What speeds, (connection and throughput), do you get?

Just that it only needs one engineer, (perhaps not fully independently), to declare your line not suitable for broadband, and you are dead. No broadband at all. As far as I know with no possibility of appeal.

So be careful.

DownStream Connection Speed 6432 kbps
UpStream Connection Speed 832 kbps

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1305156620.png

What do you mean Roberto? Isn't it made compulsory by the government for everyone to have an internet connection (at least in NI)?

Isn't it made compulsory by the government for everyone to have an internet connection (at least in NI)?

err... no.

well for business' the department of rural development said that they must have some form of broadband
(atleast 2Mbps specifically)

In reply to a post by jdowning640:

well for business' the department of rural development said that they must have some form of broadband
(atleast 2Mbps specifically)

Am I right in saying your business is a restaurant? And is the line registered in your business' name, as a business line?

Have you tried using a 2Wire HGV2700 (a.k.a. a BT Business Hub)?

You may be thinking of this announcement, but I read that as an overall aspiration. Not a legal requirement to supply to "all". Even in England it is possible for any particular line to be ruled out, though I don't know the conditions under which that can happen.

I have seen at least two people here in the last few years complaining to BT time after time about their line, until an engineer just called time on it.

Having said that, I don't expect you are anywhere near that point. But you need to be aware it can happen, at least on the mainland.

Yep restaurant & accommodation kinda' thing.

I have a 2wire (not sure on the model, the latest one that BT Business supplies) however it's on a residential line as that's what they put me on to begin with.

In reply to a post by jdowning640:

Yep restaurant & accommodation kinda' thing.

I have a 2wire (not sure on the model, the latest one that BT Business supplies) however it's on a residential line as that's what they put me on to begin with.

My only suggestion, here, would be to tell you ISP that you are trying to run a business and the residential service with which you have been provided is not coping . . . your business is suffering, as a consequence.

If needs be, see if your local MP would be willing to ask questions in the right places.

I told Martin at Aquiss this the other day however I agree with him that he can't report a fault if it's related to latency and advised me to get the line noise sorted out.

I removed all ethernet cables from my modem at approximately 10pm. The BQM reported no changes to latency which pretty much rules out anything internally.

Thanks
Jack

In reply to a post by jdowning640:

I told Martin at Aquiss this the other day however I agree with him that he can't report a fault if it's related to latency and advised me to get the line noise sorted out.

That's not strictly true. You made myself aware of what is running over your lines a number of weeks back. However, as was demonstrated to you on Friday, the latency appears to be coming off the BT network, prior to the LNS. Within the network, there is no latency being seen across the circuit. We have reported the fault a couple of times, but there finding any issues, however latency/packet loss is a difficult one to raise with BT at the best of times.

Your also aware that we have stepped up the monitoring of your line. As agreed with yourself a review of the collected data will take place on Wednesday, with a conference call penciled in 3.00pm of the same day.

In terms of line noise. You advised me on Friday that the line had a hissing sound in the background. I asked you if all broadband equipment was removed, was the hiss still there, which you said yes to. As explained, if you found the level of hiss unacceptable, then this needs to be taken up with phone provider. You advised that a recent engineer believed no fault was found.

I think you were speaking to Clare then. Sorry if I didn't get full details, didn't mean to put you down in any way,

Right a second engineer was out today - and apparently there is contradiction here.

Should there be zilch noise on the line regardless of how long you are from the exchange? I know you should know that there is presence on the line but absolutely no small background humming noises?

He decided to apply £120 engineer charge to my bill, again, even though BT called me up yesterday saying they had found a fault on their network and there would be no charge.

I can hear it, he can't/

Edited by deleted (Mon 23-May-11 23:22:56)

I'm probably really getting on all your nerves now but this is still happening!

Nearly 20 engineer visits, not one of them say there's a fault. I've tried LOADS of different modems. Plugged everything out, tried different computers, different everything.

What is my last option? I can't do this anymore!

In reply to a post by jdowning640:

Nearly 20 engineer visits, not one of them say there's a fault. I've tried LOADS of different modems. Plugged everything out, tried different computers, different everything.

What is my last option? I can't do this anymore!

Hi Jack.

Perhaps I shouldn�t be surprised that after all this time you�re still having these problems, but I am.
Martin of Aquiss claimed in one of his posts that the problem lay in the BT network, but he then added this comment: �however latency/packet loss is a difficult one to raise with BT at the best of times�.
If the problem is with BT, and I have my doubts about that, it beggars belief that between the two of them a solution cannot be found.

I came across this old observation about Aquiss on another forum: �They do employ an anti-latency tool which comes into effect when the network is absolutely saturated. What it does is gradually reduce the network (pipe) speed until there is no packet loss, ensuring you have a consistent connection (not particular ports or protocols, the overall speed) It is automatic, and constant - it will only reduce as much as necessary (in small steps), and will quickly increase when it can.�

Whether the �anti-latency tool� is still employed by Aquiss only Martin can tell you, but I presume that the monitoring they undertook several weeks ago and the conference you had with them revealed no new information.

Sadly, there appears to be very little response from this forum to your plight, but I�m sure that if there were posters here who could help they definitely would. The only option you have now is to keep persevering; keep hammering away at the three companies who, between them, are contracted to provide you with a suitable, sustainable and reliable broadband/phone/voip connection.

Wagstaff

I think I remember that post, or an almost word-for-word version here. It was describing the Entanet ALT, which I believe was scrapped long ago.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I think I remember that post, or an almost word-for-word version here. It was describing the Entanet ALT, which I believe was scrapped long ago.

Do you know why it was scrapped, Bob ?

Wagstaff

Partly the MSIL version never really worked properly, and partly perhaps they lost so many customers it became unnecessary.

Or maybe they ended up just making sure they had the MSIL capacity. I think the charging structure from Wholesale changed a little as well, making planning easier.

I don't think they ever said why, (in public),but I'm fairly sure it was officially dropped.

In reply to a post by Wagstaff:

In reply to a post by jdowning640:

Nearly 20 engineer visits, not one of them say there's a fault. I've tried LOADS of different modems. Plugged everything out, tried different computers, different everything.

What is my last option? I can't do this anymore!

Hi Jack.

Perhaps I shouldn�t be surprised that after all this time you�re still having these problems, but I am.
Martin of Aquiss claimed in one of his posts that the problem lay in the BT network, but he then added this comment: �however latency/packet loss is a difficult one to raise with BT at the best of times�.
If the problem is with BT, and I have my doubts about that, it beggars belief that between the two of them a solution cannot be found.

It doesn't surprise me. Aquiss are just reselling a product, they're not a kosher ISP - they don't have a forum on here for example.

To get this sorted out would take an ISP with some technical nouse, AAISP for example.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

It doesn't surprise me. Aquiss are just reselling a product, they're not a kosher ISP - they don't have a forum on here for example.

To get this sorted out would take an ISP with some technical nouse, AAISP for example.

We've already persuaded Jack to move ISPs once. Are you suggesting that he should move again?

Wagstaff

If it helps any, this is the BQM from a different line coming into the property from the same pole. It's on adsl24.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/6f43797828d...

Similar problems with VoIP.

May I add - I got a guy I know to give me a lend of another modem and it worked absolutely PERFECTLY for the first 20 minutes. (This is on the line we're mainly talking about) but it just went bad again after that and I've tried so many modems.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/de7dd905c32...

In reply to a post by Wagstaff:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

It doesn't surprise me. Aquiss are just reselling a product, they're not a kosher ISP - they don't have a forum on here for example.

To get this sorted out would take an ISP with some technical nouse, AAISP for example.

We've already persuaded Jack to move ISPs once. Are you suggesting that he should move again?

Wagstaff

Yes, to an ISP this time.

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by Wagstaff:

We've already persuaded Jack to move ISPs once. Are you suggesting that he should move again?

Wagstaff

Yes, to an ISP this time.

Besides AAISP, do you know of any ISPs operating in Northern Ireland who could sort this problem out?

Wagstaff

In reply to a post by Wagstaff:

In reply to a post by BatBoy:

In reply to a post by Wagstaff:

We've already persuaded Jack to move ISPs once. Are you suggesting that he should move again?

Wagstaff

Yes, to an ISP this time.

Besides AAISP, do you know of any ISPs operating in Northern Ireland who could sort this problem out?

Wagstaff

It's the UK, surely all ISPs operate there?

I think AAISP will sort it out.

My service at the moment with Aquiss is fine - would I really need to move for the problem to be fixed?

Jack

In reply to a post by jdowning640:

My service at the moment with Aquiss is fine - would I really need to move for the problem to be fixed?

Jack

As far as I'm aware, Aquiss resell a service provided by some wholesale ISP who buy from BT. In order to get problems raised with BT your ISP must talk to BT. So who talks to BT?

AAISP have a track record in raising faults with BT and actively pushing them being fixed, not being fobbed-off by BT closing faults for spurious reasons. This is all documented on their blog somewhere.

If you have a problem, I think AAISP are your best bet for getting it fixed, be it due to BT or some other reason.

I agree with you that AAISP 'seem' to be the only ISP that know how to deal with BT effectively in problem situations and have a great reputation for getting results.

It shouldn't be like this - but that's the way it seems so be

The trouble is their ADSL packages don't suit many people. Especially if you use your connection during normal working hours! The bandwidth allowances are very restrictive so seem to only suit customers that use their connection out of normal peak hours.

If I'm wrong and aren't up to date please let me know

http://aa.net.uk/broadband-trial.html

I stand to be corrected if wrong, but I don't think any other ISP gives the customer visibility of BT fault tickets

Hi guys,

I'm going to try AAISP for a few months and if the problem isn't fixed, I think I'll go back to Aquiss. I do like their 'try for a month and we'll repair your problems' statement but of course that can't always be true!

I've heard good things about them in the past but I feel bad leaving Aquiss just for this - they haven't done anything bad in the past.

Should I definitely go ahead with this?

Jack

Nothing to lose really and you only have to stay with AAISP for a minimum of a month

AAISP do claim they have not one single customer who has been disappointed

Agreed, go for it and please keep in touch.

Aquiss have done nothing wrong, as you say, but AAISP are unsurpassed so far as I know in getting things fixed. Just browse through what they set up[ to monitor your line for instance.

It can't do any harm to try them, expensive though it may be. Note that the "units" system is actually remarkably flexible if you are careful, as the estimator is just that. You don't have to use the units in the way you estimated you needed them. So 0.3 units at the right time of day can give a huge amount. For example [][]

Your usage does not have to be whole units at certain times, you can use some of a unit during the day and some in the evening, etc. We also have a special bonus aimed at people doing backups and file transfers over night. Instead of the normal off peak tariff, between 2am and 6am usage is metered at 1000GB/unit.

Aquiss have done nothing wrong, as you say, but AAISP are unsurpassed so far as I know in getting things fixed. Just browse through what they set up to monitor your line for instance.

It can't do any harm to try them, expensive though it may be. Note that the "units" system is actually remarkably flexible if you are careful, as the estimator is just that. You don't have to use the units in the way you estimated you needed them. So 0.3 units at the right time of day can give a huge amount. For example:-

Your usage does not have to be whole units at certain times, you can use some of a unit during the day and some in the evening, etc. We also have a special bonus aimed at people doing backups and file transfers over night. Instead of the normal off peak tariff, between 2am and 6am usage is metered at 1000GB.

I've spent the last 10 minutes skimming over your previous thread, and parts of this one.

Is it a 21CN connection you are on? If so, the DLM can force your modem to sync with an SNR as low as 3db. If you have a noisy/unstable line, this might be just too low to get a reliable stable sync on the line using fast path, unless you go the interleaved route, which is not what you need or want as you use VOIP.

Please check what the modem reports as your SNR on a fresh re-sync. If it is 3db, and you are on fast path, it is highly probably you will get noise interference, causing frames to be corrupted between you and the DSLAM, resulting in packet loss. In this case, I would suggest purchasing a modem where you can force what the target SNR will be (not all do this) so that it will sync at a more stable rate.

Moving to another ISP (AAISP) will not help you in this instance, as BT's DLM will still be on your line. The real downer here (and this is insane) is that BT will not allow you or your ISP to fixate the target SNR for your modem sync - it just auto learns, and picks what it thinks is best. I personally hate this, because sometimes, it just isn't going to make the correct judgements about your line.

Your other alternative is to move to an LLU provider like BE (assuming they are at your exchange) where you can set the target SNR for your line, to has high as 15db (they give you control of this and fastpath/interleaving through their portal) - if you are still getting packet loss on a 15db SNR, you probably need a new phone line.

If you have genuinely fixed the voice fault on the line (that is, you hear no abnormalities on a quite line test), and you've had repeated engineer visits saying the line is OK, I think the issue here is fast path with a low SNR. For the length of your line, you should be looking at at least an SNR of 6db and, for absolute stability, 9 or 12db. If you stick with a connection supplied by BT (20/21CN), this is going to be tricky to obtain without using a router that allows you to define what SNR it syncs at.

So, to summarise:

- if you still believe you have a line fault (voice/broadband) and BT engineers say otherwise, move to AAISP (they -will- escalate to BT and they will fix your fault).

- if the line is now fine, consider moving to BE (if you can) where you have full control over setting your line to fast path/interleaved with SNR targets of 3,6,9,12 and 15db.

Good luck.

Hi there, I'm on a 20CN line, here is my statistics.


ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 7232 kbps 832 kbps
Line Attenuation 37.0 db 20.5 db
Noise Margin 8.9 db 9.0 db

Ok, to put your line in perspective, I'm on 31db attenuation synced at 13,831bps with an SNR of 3db (but this is ADSL2+). So these stats look normal in my opinion.

How is the Fast Path HEC error rate looking? (some modems measure this as errored seconds). If this is clocking up even slightly (10 a second), that's probably enough to cause packet loss on fast path.

If I was in your shoes, I would move to AAISP and let them escalate to BT - but only if you still think there is a line fault. Have you tried alternative modems / splitters etc? (just checking).

AAISP will not lock you into a contract, so once they fix the fault, you can of course just give them 30 days notice and move to another ISP. But they do have many many useful features like continuous line monitoring and the ability to set the BRAS download rate their side, to say, 95% of the BT BRAS, which (if you do some reading on their site) people have reported works very well for VOIP (which is your primary use).

Either way, let them fix the fault, and see how you get on. If after a while you are happy, you could risk then moving back to a cheaper provider. If you do go this route, I would recommend BE (if available) for the reasons I stated my previous post.

Edited by deleted (Sat 02-Jul-11 22:35:34)

In reply to a post by mixt:

A very well-reasoned post.

Just two or three factual errors, (I think!).

First, Be do not offer full control over the sync-time noise margin, unless they have altered things recently. They offer three settings in the control panel, which seem to be 3dB, 6dB and 9dB. Though I expect others are available through support.

Secondly, again unless things have changed, BT Wholesale can certainly fix the sync-time noise margin as high as 18dB. (The DLM limit being 15dB). The "auto" system can be, and often is, turned off.

Thirdly only the trialling DLM running on some DSALM/MSANs can set the margin as low as 3dB. The minimum on the standard DLM, even on WBC, is 6dB.

Incidentally , "fixate" isn't what you mean. Look it up .

First, Be do not offer full control over the sync-time noise margin, unless they have altered things recently. They offer three settings in the control panel, which seem to be 3dB, 6dB and 9dB. Though I expect others are available through support

Correct. 12db and 15db being available via contacting support only

NB: There are indications of high latency on BE from NI exchanges at the moment. Does not appear to be affecting O2

lol, ok, thanks for the corrections.

Yes, BE portal allows 3,6,9db - you have to phone them for the 12 and 15db options.

Last time I spoke with AA, the chap said they couldn't set the DLM static at a certain SNR. I'm purely speaking the information as I have been given it. If it is indeed possible to do this, then the OP should look at maybe getting his 9db upped to 12db and beyond. But this then suggests to me that the line is actually pretty poor and one of these annoying cases where BT just wont see anything wrong with it.

In reply to a post by mixt:

lol, ok, thanks for the corrections.
...
one of these annoying cases where BT just wont see anything wrong with it

For a few months now it has been increasingly obvious that if you have a broadband connection at any level then Openreach are not interested in a variety of problems.

Even previous better performance is irrelevant. Worse still, ISPs seem to be encouraged to use the "SNR reset" facility willy-nilly to correct speed problems, which can be a disaster as it doesn't simply do that - it restarts a 10-day training period. If there is a fault causing low speed, rather than an excessively high margin being the reason, this results in the MSR and FTR being lowered, whereupon the poor performance automatically comes within range for that line so OR won't even accept a speed complaint.

Yeah, I'm with you, and I mostly agree.

My brother got BE on his business (office) line up north (Newcastle) some years ago now. The checker reported he should get 12 odd Mb sync.

I setup all his kit (routers etc) so they log stats to an online server, one of these stats being the SNR. He plugged the router in and it synced at.... 3 Mb, for about... 2 weeks. Then for around 5 days, the sync went all the way to 12 Mb. I was amazed.

After this, it dropped again back to 3 Mb. I tried to log this as a fault with BE, but given that I'm not actually the line or account owner, it was kind of difficult to go anywhere with them. The monkey on the phone reeled off the usual 'we can't see any fault on the line, this is to be expected'. The fact that it did achieve a 12 Mb sync for 5 days a few days previous went right over his little head. If this had been AA, they would have logged this (they log everything!) and they would have had all the ammo required to put the gloves on and pay BT a visit.

But, it wasn't, so that hasn't happened. His line has been this way for the past 2 years - still 3Mb, still chugging along. It doesn't bother him as they are not using the connection in any intensive/fast way. But if it was me, I would be all over that as one major fault that someone (BT) needs to fix.

Right now he has a 40.0 db line attention, synced at 2,752Kbps with an 8db SNR - *that* *is* *pretty* *disgusting* - but it ain't my line, and it works... so, let's leave it alone!

Edited by deleted (Sat 02-Jul-11 23:18:46)

Just doing another test & replaced the micro filter, plugged all ethernet devices out - just the modem. Have done this 4-5 times before with no luck.

Ok, as I said before, organise moving yourself to AA.

As soon as you are with them, they will start to monitor your line and graph latency/packet loss continuously (they do this at the PPP/LCP layer, not at the IP layer). This allows both them and yourself to see -precisely- how the line is behaving over time, and gives them something to work with when escalating to BT.

They will not give in until you are happy with the result. As I said, I think the downer here is the fact you are -wanting- to run fast path, on what appears to be a poor line. So either the line fault (if there is one) is going to get fixed, or they are going to help work the problem (increase your SNR, do what ever is required) to deliver a working broadband connection that works in the way you want it to.

Let us know how you get on. Btw, if it helps you at all, I phoned them once a few months back cause I had a line fault. They took a while to answer, but I never found myself in a queuing system, and I told the guy all the usual tests I had done with my line and within 30 seconds he basically organised a BT engineer call out (which I subsequently had to cancel, I won't go into that here). They are very good, and certainly do not read from scripts.

In reply to a post by mixt:

The real downer here (and this is insane) is that BT will not allow you or your ISP to fixate (I think you mean) the target SNR for your modem sync - it just auto learns, and picks what it thinks is best.

On Orange's White Label BTW's 21CN WBC I can manually set my target SNR via my router (adslctl cmds). Is that what you are contending BT doesn't allow? How do you explain that I can do it? Or do you just mean that they don't allow the ISP to offer target SNR changes upon request, a l� Be?

In reply to a post by XRaySpeX:

I can manually set my target SNR via my router

I've often wondered how this actually works... obviously your router can't change the target SNRM in the DSLAM, I assume that the DSLAM asks your router what the signal level is and, if you've locally changed the target SNRM, then your router lies through its teeth... or is it done some other way that I haven't thought of?

I defer to a higher authority than I, Kitz, for any explanation.

That says how to do it, and is similar to the Billion 7800N (except that the 7800N fiddle will survive a reboot), but it doesn't say what it does... it's not really important, I'm just terminally curious

No, I was contending BT do allow it. Though this is a presumption. I managed to force sync at what ever target SNR I wanted using a SpeedTouch with Zen on a 20CN connection many years ago.

I presume it still works for the new 21CN connections too. BT probably allow it. What I was meaning was - it was my understanding that BT do NOT allow the ISP to fix the DLM at a static SNR, but as Roberto has pointed out, he seems to reckon this is incorrect. I only say this based on what AA said when I called them up.

Hard to explain what I actually meant. Two different situations.

1) The setting of the target (sync-time) noise margin on BT Wholesale circuits is within the BT Wholesale DLM. In the past that sometimes used to, maybe still does, get stuck at a high level after problems on the line. The DLM was/is expected to lower it over time, given a period of sufficient stability. BT Wholesale were able to reset it or in some way unstick it. ISPs have never had that facility, and most had extreme difficulty getting BT Wholesale to do it when needed.

It was the work of a few seconds .

ISPs now have access to a tool to set the target noise margin to the default 6dB, but this also redoes the initial 10-day training period. (There appears to be a delay in this happening after the ISP request - whether this is within an automated queuing system or whether it is a case of a BTW employee triggering it from a list of requests I have no idea).

That is fine so far as it goes, but can have a long-term detrimental effect if there is an ongoing problem causing low sync, as that low sync then becomes the maximum expected for that line, and 80% of that low maximum becomes the benchmark for even considering the possibility of a fault.

So, badly trained or deliberately misinformed support staff may, and certainly have done at times, inappropriately trigger this reset because of low speed. Whereupon the speed does not improve, but the line no longer has a reportable fault condition.

2) Given an unstable line with frequent disconnections, it has always been possible for the auto-adjustment of the target noise margin to be disabled, and the level fixed at any 3dB step up to (I think) 18dB, where the DLM peaked at 15dB.

I was under the impression this was done by Openreach engineers in order to correct the instability. To do this, it seems likely they had direct access to the DLM settings, similar to new ISP tool. Or maybe they had a request mechansim to BTW. One way or another it was achievable.

I seem to remember that occasionally ISPs have been able to get this manual setting carried out, but I don't think there was a formal mechanism.

The above sorts of thing are where AAISP are ace! Both in getting the correct settings applied, and in getting underlying problems fixed.

In reply to a post by mixt:

... it was my understanding that BT do NOT allow the ISP to fix the DLM at a static SNR, but as Roberto has pointed out, he seems to reckon this is incorrect.

I thought I agreed with that? But see my post a couple of minutes ago where I try to clarify.