Download speed too fast

I have been running some speed tests, mainly via this site. They seem to produce results that are better than my service supports. Can anyone suggest why?

thinkbroadband (flash based) 14.6Mbps
broadband-speed-test.uswitch.com 15Mbps
broadbandspeedchecker 12Mbps

My exchange is THWA/WARGRAVE. My ISP is Pipex. I am using a BT ADSL line, am near the exchange and can expect a speed of 7-8Mps. TalkTalk do have a faster LLU service in the exchange, but I'm not using that. So how can I get the speeds measured above?

I assumed there must be something wrong with my use of the tools, so timed the download files available on this site. I got:
200MB 232s=6.9Mbps OK
50MB 34s = 11.8Mbps ?
50MB 37s = 10.8Mbps ?
100MB 40s = 20Mbps ???

Windows does indeed confirm the file sizes of these zip files. How can I be getting these speeds on a line with a max speed of 8Mbps?

TalkTalk bought the Tiscali UK group some time back (that includes Pipex). So you may well have been moved to TalkTalk equipment at the exchange and put on an ADSL2+ line profile.

Interestingly SamKnows doesn't show any LLU being available in your exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/THWA - although it's not always up to date and TT have been expanding their LLU footprint lately.

Getting the line stats from your router would be conclusive.

Are you using Kaspersky anti-virus (which caches data and often gives stupid speedtest results)?

Edit: Of course, your maximum speed may not be 8Mbps (that's just a very conservative BT estimate and has no actual impact on your connection speed - which will naturally go as fast as it can achieve).
Best to also check the speed your ADSL router is connecting at.

Edited by adebov (Thu 18-Aug-11 22:10:07)

I know Wargrave exchange very well,(just behind the Bull, in Backsideans) and there's no LLU stuff in there, and only 'up to 8' Wholesale stuff.

Then it truely is a mystery I was just going by what the OP stated w.r.t. the TT LLU.

Clear your cache and history and try a 500MB file. I've seen speed meters and testers mis-report smaller files, but when timing it the clock seems to get it right (funny that). Also some file downloaders start downloading early I've noticed. Not sure if it's some caching or efficiency. Might be that.

Adebov mentioned Kaspersky AV as screwing up many speed testers.. Avira does the same.

If you can find and post your line stats, see here for help, we can see what your line is actually connecting at, plus other useful information.

The BT Performance tester also gives other useful info. Please post the results as far as the end of the upstream figures.

Well, I can clear up most of the mystery.

I was on an 8Mbps max line with Pipex. My router stats now show 18.5Mbps downstream, ADSL2+.

I was aware that Pipex were due to be migrated to TalkTalk, but because of what I'd heard of TalkTalk's customer service, I decided I wanted out. So last Friday 12th August, I started investigating broadband alternatives.

However, I did get a quote from TalkTalk showing I could expect 9-18Mbps 15Mbs average on their LLU sevice, but this required me to switch my phone line to TalkTalk, and there was the customer service issue, so although tempting I decided no, even though everything else in the exchange is on BT max 8Mps . Late Fri pm, I spoke to Zen, and on checking my potential speed, they said there was a broadband cease on my line due to complete on the 16th - two working days away. This was news to me.

I thought it might be due to the migration to TalkTalk, but the Pipex cancellations dept said no the move to TalkTalk was just a billing change at the moment, and my supply would cease on the 16th, very sorry, but unless they could stop it I would be without broadband for some days. They couldn't tell me why there was a cease on the broadband supply, very very sorry, but it was probably too late to stop it. After a lot of frantic calls to Pipex the broadband cease did get removed just before the 16th.

I asked Pipex for a MAC yesterday and received it today. I thought I'd try running speed tests today, so I could check how much my speed had improved when I switched to Zen, and got the above confusing results.

So what appears to have happened is that when the cease was cancelled, TalkTalk switched me to their ADSL2+ service without telling me, and I'm now running about 3 times faster than before. Maybe this WAS all part of the planned migration from Pipex to TalkTalk and the Pipex cancellations team hadn't been told. Who knows?

Now I don't know what to do. TalkTalk said they could not offer me their ADSL2+ broadband unless I switched my phone to them as well. Pipex said I would hear about what packages TalkTalk would offer me soon when the migration was complete. If ADSL2+ is on offer as an ex-Pipex customer, but keeping my BT line, then I would be very tempted, in spite of the customer service issue.

Sorry this has all been so confusing. It was only when I was urged to look at my router stats that I realised what had happened.

That could potentially be very bad news. Just going by what you stated - TalkTalk said that they could only give you ADSL2+ speeds if you gave them the line rental as well. The primary reason for that is that they do not offer broadband only packages. The concern is that they may only have full MPF LLU in your exchange i.e. only capable of delivering both voice and broadband (as opposed to shared MPF (SMPF) which can be used by LLU operators to provide broadband on other telephony providers lines).

So I envisage two possible scenarios:
1. TalkTalk processed a sales order to take over both voice and broadband despite you indicating you did not want to proceed. That would cause your line to move from WLR with whatever provider you are with now to TalkTalk's full MPF. This would also generate a broadband cease that Zen would be able to see on their BT systems.

2. Both MPF and SMPF (or maybe just SMPF) capacity has been installed in your exchange by TalkTalk and as LLU is far less costly for them to supply they have migrated just your broadband from BTWholesale IPStream to SMPF LLU. This could be done without necessitating a move from Pipex (brand) to TalkTalk (brand) and still retaining your current telephony provider. The cease of the IPStream during the migration would also be visible to Zen in this scenario.


If scenario 1. were the case you should have received a "We're sorry you're leaving" letter from your current line rental provider. Check your post It would also make it more tricky / expensive to move onto another provider for voice and/or broadband. Although you'd have a good case for recompense as they effectively "slammed" your line.

Personally I think that scenario 2. is more likely and it is in fact just coincidental timing that you called Pipex to discuss leaving and MAC codes etc. just at the time there were orders flowing through there internal systems to move you from IPStream to SMPF, so the agent quite possibly misinterpreted what they had in front of them. SMPF is no harder to migrate away from than IPStream - it uses the same MAC code process.

I've never been a customer of either company so can't comment on any customer service issues from my own experience. All I can say w.r.t. TalkTalk is from the comments made by posters on this forum is that the TalkTalk members' forum is often more expeditious than the telephone route in. Can't attest to the veracity of that, it's just hearsay.

Let us know how it goes - might be worth giving it a few days for internal sytems to sort themselves out then give Pipex a call back and confirm you are still active with them. They should also be able to confirm that they can see that you are now on LLU or not - although I think we know the answer to that already!

Edited by deleted (Fri 19-Aug-11 01:35:21)

GeeTee

I thought of possibility 1 this morning before I read your post. I also think it's unlikely, but a possibility. I guess a call to BT should confirm the phone is still with them, and I guess there should be other ways I could check myself if the phone line has been switched to TT?

Assuming it's only the BB service that's been switched to TT, I have a difficult decision in front of me. Even if I decide to move to Zen, I will have a week or so running at about 18Mbps before the transfer takes effect. Then my line speed will drop by a factor of two to three after I've become used to the faster speed. Not a nice prospect!

Thanks to everyone for their help. I'm out this morning. Will keep you posted.

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

That could potentially be very bad news. Just going by what you stated - TalkTalk said that they could only give you ADSL2+ speeds if you gave them the line rental as well. The primary reason for that is that they do not offer broadband only packages. The concern is that they may only have full MPF LLU in your exchange i.e. only capable of delivering both voice and broadband (as opposed to shared MPF (SMPF) which can be used by LLU operators to provide broadband on other telephony providers lines).

Hi GeeTee,

TalkTalk Group have SMPF DSLAM equipment in many exchanges to support legacy Tiscali, Pipex, Nildram, and also AOL customers who have broadband only contracts.

Scenario 2 is far cheaper to supply as the equipment has already been installed by the previous ISPs.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

GeeTee

I thought of possibility 1 this morning before I read your post. I also think it's unlikely, but a possibility. I guess a call to BT should confirm the phone is still with them, and I guess there should be other ways I could check myself if the phone line has been switched to TT?

Assuming it's only the BB service that's been switched to TT, I have a difficult decision in front of me. Even if I decide to move to Zen, I will have a week or so running at about 18Mbps before the transfer takes effect. Then my line speed will drop by a factor of two to three after I've become used to the faster speed. Not a nice prospect!

Thanks to everyone for their help. I'm out this morning. Will keep you posted.

if you have been provided a mac code, you are on smpf

if you dial 17070, if you can do a line test you are still on a bt wholesale line, on talktalk's network it only repeats your number to you

Without knowing the speed your ADSL modem is connected at, then anything said is pure guesswork

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

TalkTalk Group have SMPF DSLAM equipment in many exchanges to support legacy Tiscali, Pipex, Nildram, and also AOL customers who have broadband only contracts.

Err no!

I am fairly sure there is no difference in the exchange between the ISP equipment for MPF and SMPF. The difference is purely what the ISP chooses to allow. As in Sky, who used to allow SMPF for new customers but now require MPF, though existing SMPFs bcan continue as they are.

Scenario 2 is far cheaper to supply as the equipment has already been installed by the previous ISPs.

Errr no!

I am absolutely sure that on any broadband connection the line from the customer's premises terminates on the ISP's or wholesaler's DSLAM/MSAN. So broadband through BT Wholesale is to a BT Wholesale DSLAM/MSAN, and SMF and SMPF by an LLU ISP both end up on the providing LLU ISP's kit.

From the DSLAM or MSAN the phone connection is then linked to either the main BT MDF, (SMPF), or through whatever backhaul the LLU CP has provisioned, (MPF).

Its not clear whether TalkTalk has actually removed old Tiscali group LLU kit from exchanges, it may be doing this slowly.

A lot will depend on the age of the kit.

But yes nothing stopping MPF and SMPF being ran from the same MSAN, the ISP may reserve some line cards for MPF only possibly.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I am fairly sure there is no difference in the exchange between the ISP equipment for MPF and SMPF. The difference is purely what the ISP chooses to allow. As in Sky, who used to allow SMPF for new customers but now require MPF, though existing SMPFs bcan continue as they are.

Err no!

As it's widely believed TalkTalk use Huawei kit, I'll use them as a reference:

DSLAM - SMPF - http://www.huawei.com/en/products/fixed-access/dslam...
MSAN - MPF - http://www.huawei.com/en/products/fixed-access/multi...

Different devices. There's no indication they can be mixed and matched. Only the DSLAM has any reference to the splitters required to be able to return the voice path.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

Hi GeeTee,

TalkTalk Group have SMPF DSLAM equipment in many exchanges to support legacy Tiscali, Pipex, Nildram, and also AOL customers who have broadband only contracts.

Scenario 2 is far cheaper to supply as the equipment has already been installed by the previous ISPs.

Not sure if you are the same Anon as the OP.

However, no doubt on either point.

That said, this appears to be a recently unbundled exchange (ref: SamKnows still has it as a Market 1 exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/THWA). Given that TalkTalk don't offer broadband only products would they be installing new DSLAMs just to move those legacy customers over onto? I guess that comes down to the economics of each particular exchange in terms of how many of those legacy customers they have iin it. I'm sure they are not going to pop-up on here and disclose what their new footprint is exactly or how they do the financial modelling to work out what they consider viable, that would be commercially suicidal.

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I am fairly sure there is no difference in the exchange between the ISP equipment for MPF and SMPF. The difference is purely what the ISP chooses to allow. As in Sky, who used to allow SMPF for new customers but now require MPF, though existing SMPFs bcan continue as they are.

Err no!

As it's widely believed TalkTalk use Huawei kit, I'll use them as a reference:

DSLAM - SMPF - http://www.huawei.com/en/products/fixed-access/dslam...
MSAN - MPF - http://www.huawei.com/en/products/fixed-access/multi...

Different devices. There's no indication they can be mixed and matched. Only the DSLAM has any reference to the splitters required to be able to return the voice path.

Without knowing what all the acronyms used in the MSAN writeup, it rather looks to me as though it integrates the splitter functionality on the DSLAM line card boards into some more efficient system. To me it reads as though it could happily connect the voice side to the BT MDF.

In particular, given a phone line which is provisioned under WLR by virtually anyone, with WBC-based broadband, how does the BT Wholesale MSAN handle it? The line is not under BT Wholesale control.

I stand to be corrected of course. In my previous post I did say "I am fairly sure there is no difference in the exchange between the ISP equipment for MPF and SMPF". Fair enough, there is. But not so far proven to be relevant.

So I'm not convinced you are right re point 1, and the point two made by the Anonymous poster, which I more strongly challenged, is just tripe. Even if you are saying MPF can only be provided over an MSAN, (are you?), the point isn't relevant to the OP's situation.

In particular, given a phone line which is provisioned under WLR by virtually anyone, with WBC-based broadband, how does the BT Wholesale MSAN handle it? The line is not under BT Wholesale control.

Exactly the same way as for old style DSLAM's ie. splitter

As MSAN is just a multiple service DSLAM, with some interegration that can make wiring simpler in situations where there is one voice provider.

In scenarios like Openreach have in an exchange, the costs are higher for all parties due to the flexibility/extra wiring that needs to be supported to allow for the various phone/broadband options.

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

Not sure if you are the same Anon as the OP.

No, I'm the OP. I've only made two posts on this topic. I was registered when I last used ADSLGuide in 2003, but forgot my login details. I can see it's confusing when several anons are posting.

I've not got involved in technology post ADSL at all. Can someone please point me to a good quick summary that will help me with DSLAM,MSAM,SMPF,MPF,SMF,etc... I think I need to get up to speed on the current technology before I proceed further.

Thanks,
Arnold

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

Without knowing the speed your ADSL modem is connected at, then anything said is pure guesswork

Andrew,

As I said in an earlier post, I thought I was on 8Mbps on a BT wholesale connection with Pipex, but from what my router says now, I appear to be on
ADLS2+
Downstream 18Mps
Upstream 1Mbps
and probably with TalkTalk, though this is surmise at the moment.

I could possibly clear up some of this by contacting Pipex, but given my earlier experiences with them, I'd prefer to get a bit more up to speed on the technology before I do so.

Arnold

In which case your speedtest results make perfect sense.

Pipex was bought by Tiscali, who in turn were bought by TalkTalk, and TalkTalk has been intergrating and upgrading a lot of these customers from ADSL to ADSL2+ so your speed jump is of no surprise.

It is less of a technology issue, more of a keeping pace with the musical chairs that has gone in the ISP industry.

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

That could potentially be very bad news. Just going by what you stated - TalkTalk said that they could only give you ADSL2+ speeds if you gave them the line rental as well. The primary reason for that is that they do not offer broadband only packages. The concern is that they may only have full MPF LLU in your exchange i.e. only capable of delivering both voice and broadband (as opposed to shared MPF (SMPF) which can be used by LLU operators to provide broadband on other telephony providers lines).

So I envisage two possible scenarios:
1. TalkTalk processed a sales order to take over both voice and broadband despite you indicating you did not want to proceed. That would cause your line to move from WLR with whatever provider you are with now to TalkTalk's full MPF. This would also generate a broadband cease that Zen would be able to see on their BT systems.

2. Both MPF and SMPF (or maybe just SMPF) capacity has been installed in your exchange by TalkTalk and as LLU is far less costly for them to supply they have migrated just your broadband from BTWholesale IPStream to SMPF LLU. This could be done without necessitating a move from Pipex (brand) to TalkTalk (brand) and still retaining your current telephony provider. The cease of the IPStream during the migration would also be visible to Zen in this scenario.


If scenario 1. were the case you should have received a "We're sorry you're leaving" letter from your current line rental provider. Check your post It would also make it more tricky / expensive to move onto another provider for voice and/or broadband. Although you'd have a good case for recompense as they effectively "slammed" your line.

Personally I think that scenario 2. is more likely and it is in fact just coincidental timing that you called Pipex to discuss leaving and MAC codes etc. just at the time there were orders flowing through there internal systems to move you from IPStream to SMPF, so the agent quite possibly misinterpreted what they had in front of them. SMPF is no harder to migrate away from than IPStream - it uses the same MAC code process.

I've never been a customer of either company so can't comment on any customer service issues from my own experience. All I can say w.r.t. TalkTalk is from the comments made by posters on this forum is that the TalkTalk members' forum is often more expeditious than the telephone route in. Can't attest to the veracity of that, it's just hearsay.

Let us know how it goes - might be worth giving it a few days for internal sytems to sort themselves out then give Pipex a call back and confirm you are still active with them. They should also be able to confirm that they can see that you are now on LLU or not - although I think we know the answer to that already!

GeeTee,
Thank you. I just read your post more thoroughly. There was a lot of info that cleared up some of my questions. When I first read your post, I was rushing away to an early morning appointment on the golf course - the joys of retirement.

Arnold

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

if you have been provided a mac code, you are on smpf

if you dial 17070, if you can do a line test you are still on a bt wholesale line, on talktalk's network it only repeats your number to you

Thanks. I've dialled 17070 and confirmed I'm still on a BT wholesale line

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

Without knowing what all the acronyms used in the MSAN writeup, it rather looks to me as though it integrates the splitter functionality on the DSLAM line card boards into some more efficient system. To me it reads as though it could happily connect the voice side to the BT MDF.

In particular, given a phone line which is provisioned under WLR by virtually anyone, with WBC-based broadband, how does the BT Wholesale MSAN handle it? The line is not under BT Wholesale control.

I stand to be corrected of course. In my previous post I did say "I am fairly sure there is no difference in the exchange between the ISP equipment for MPF and SMPF". Fair enough, there is. But not so far proven to be relevant.

So I'm not convinced you are right re point 1, and the point two made by the Anonymous poster, which I more strongly challenged, is just tripe. Even if you are saying MPF can only be provided over an MSAN, (are you?), the point isn't relevant to the OP's situation.

Your summation on the MSAN splitter functionality is correct. Only difference is is that on the DSLAM setup the voice frequencies have to be presented back out on a separate tie pair to be returned to the MDF from where they are then jumpered onwards to whichever suppliers' PSTN kit. The MSAN does not physically have the connectors to facilitate that, it's all internalised.

As for relevance - I was concerned the OP may have been moved to full MPF unintentionally i.e. TT put a sales order through by mistake. Recoving from that scenario would be likely painful.

Ref WLR - MrSaffron covered that in his reply.

Ref the quesiton on MPF only over an MSAN. If by MPF you mean an LLUO providing both PSTN and ADSL then it is the most common way of doing it in the UK. Technically I guess it would be possible to install both a DSLAM and some other PSTN device alongside and jumper between the two from the incoming line. But it would consume more space and costs.

I think both MSAN and DSLAM chassis can be physically installed in the same rack if required.

All good then. It would seem TT group have indeed installed SMPF capacity in the exchange and elected to move you from IPStream to that - presumably to reduce costs. Benefit to you is the uplift to ADSL2+.

You're still a Pipex customer, just the DSL is provided over the TT network rather than over BTWholesale.

In reply to a post by GeeTee:

Not sure if you are the same Anon as the OP.

However, no doubt on either point.

That said, this appears to be a recently unbundled exchange (ref: SamKnows still has it as a Market 1 exchange http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/THWA). Given that TalkTalk don't offer broadband only products would they be installing new DSLAMs just to move those legacy customers over onto? I guess that comes down to the economics of each particular exchange in terms of how many of those legacy customers they have iin it. I'm sure they are not going to pop-up on here and disclose what their new footprint is exactly or how they do the financial modelling to work out what they consider viable, that would be commercially suicidal.

Tiscali used Huawei dslam msan equipment too

TalkTalk do offer a broadband only product, it's called AOL http://www.aolbroadband.co.uk/

Thanks Andrew, that's what I thought. The result is the same, just a different setup to achieve it.

In reply to a post by Anonymous:

TalkTalk do offer a broadband only product, it's called AOL http://www.aolbroadband.co.uk/

And comes with an extremely generous 10 GB download allowance.

Edited by Oliver341 (Fri 19-Aug-11 23:51:35)

GeeTee

I just spoke to Zen sales to confirm I could move to them from Pipex (if I wanted) even though I have now LLU broadband with Pipex/TT, as I now have my MAC. He said, yes, I can move because I don't have LLU broadband - I'm on the BT database. He couldn't explain how I am now getting 18.5Mbps. He said if I did have a LLU broadband supply, Zen could not give me broadband without my getting a new phone line, but he insisted I don't have LLU broadband anyway. From your replies, I believe I have to be on an SMPF line and he is wrong. Also that Zen ought to be able to supply me easily if I want to move my broadband supply to them. Maybe he has never heard of an SMPF line, but surely he ought to know about this.

I am confused, and wonder if I should try to speak to someone different in Zen. Have you any comments?

Arnold

I think there is just some confusion in the converastion between you and the Zen person.

He may not be aware that TT do SMPF, which they clearly do. He is thinking of LLU phone, which you are not on. So no problem - just use the MAC to sign up to Zen.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I think there is just some confusion in the converastion between you and the Zen person.

He may not be aware that TT do SMPF, which they clearly do. He is thinking of LLU phone, which you are not on. So no problem - just use the MAC to sign up to Zen.

Actually, I said my phone was definitely still with BT and that I must have been moved to an SMPF line with TT. I think he must have been unaware that I could have LLU broadband without LLU phone, though I attempted to tell him that SMPF allows this. He also said that I couldn't be on LLU broadband because my exchange is not enabled for it - as previously noted above the database is out of date on this.

Anyway, later I spoke to someone else at Zen, who said I could migrate to them with my MAC if I wanted, whether I had had LLU broadband or not.

Arnold