Openreach are they wrong?

I had an engineer visit on 11th of Nov to fit a second phone line. Well this engineer messed up and cut the second pair wire at my house. There was not sufficent length of cable at my property to now connect the second phone line.

BT Openreach have now said they will have to replace the cable from my property to the DP. However I was told on the phone that they will not require access to my property to do this. Does this mean they will leave the existing cable at my property and fit a new cable?

I cant imagine them removing the existing cable with a phone line still attached to it (my first phone line).

Any ideas?

They may just put in a wire with the usual multiple pairs, and then at a later date connect the second line up.

Without knowing the exact location and wiring of all the wires hard to say, and the advice on the phone will only be going off the notes for the job, which can be wrong or mis-interpreted.

If it is an overhead cable, if you look closely at where it reaches the premises you will see some cable strengthener/gripper wrapped round it, before it forms a U-shape and enters a junction box, from which a wire enters the premises.

So they just require from the pole to that junction box.

If it is underground I don't know, but I expect some similar arrangement to enable replacement.

Access to property - no necessarily inside but definitely the garden.

However, if the change the drop wire, they will change the connection on the eaves box and in doing that they should really come inside and check that a call can actually be made! A the eaves box to master link might fail an inch down the cable!

The cable is underground cable. Its so frustrating not knowing when this work will be carried out, its almost one month I have waited for a phone line install.

OK, you hadn't mentioned it was the UG feed that the contractor broke, in the previous thread.
So if the contractor has completed the 'fit' the feed from the external point to the new socket, then no access to inside required.

The second phone line inside the house has not even been fitted yet, as when the cable broke he abandoned the job.

There has not even been a whole made in the wall to fit the second socket yet.

Edited by deleted (Mon 14-Nov-11 16:58:53)

well in that case they will need access to do the fit.

if they work the same way there as were i work this will need to go to a track and mark guy to draw up the job and get you to sign a form ( CTD ) so we can get a new duct put in.You should see some gray paint marking up were the digging will be done .

Have you sign a form yet ? as to when this is done the job will go no were.The first guy there "should" have sorted out a T&M job but i would not bet much on it by the sounds of things,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I have not had any forms to sign yet. I have just been ringing up BT who have then contacted openreach. Any information that they have been given is then passed on to me over the phone.

The whole process has been very vague and I dont understand what exactly is going to happen or when. If only there was a way for me to get in direct contact with openreach so I can find out from the horses mouth what is happening.

Can't they pull a replacement cable through the duct? It seems the premises end of line 1 is still connected and working.

That is correct, the first phone line is still working, its the second pair two wires that were cut and need replaced.

Will having a new cable fitted inprove my FTTC speeds, the cable there is 25 years old.

Edited by deleted (Mon 14-Nov-11 17:49:38)

yes Rob we can pull a new cable through the duct but only if there is duct there !

btbert,

Is it a single length of two pairs between the premises and the cabinet via underground ducting? If so can a damaged pair be repaired or does the entire length of cable between the premises and the cabinet have to be replaced?

In reply to a post by Hellish:

Will having a new cable fitted inprove my FTTC speeds, the cable there is 25 years old.

Probably not, unless it is aluminium.

As btbert suggests, it may not be ducted. Particularly at 25 years old, (which I hadn't seen as you edited it in). Does it run visibly anywhere from underground, so that perhaps a short section of it could be replaced? Where did the line 2 wire get cut?

It is difficult without seeing the installation, but it does sound like a 'direct in ground' feed, so as Bert said, they may be having to get the civils gone for new duct and cable.

'Course if the contractor noused up the cable butt in the BT66 o/s the premises, then that highlights even more, how they are a poor investment for Openreach.

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by Hellish:

Will having a new cable fitted inprove my FTTC speeds, the cable there is 25 years old.

Probably not, unless it is aluminium.

As btbert suggests, it may not be ducted. Particularly at 25 years old, (which I hadn't seen as you edited it in). Does it run visibly anywhere from underground, so that perhaps a short section of it could be replaced? Where did the line 2 wire get cut?

The cable runs to a bt manhole which is just accross the street from my property. The guy who was fitting the phone line, before the cable broke, was working in there. I had a look in there and there where about 5 gray tubes which I assume go to each property. I take it they are the ducts.

My cabinet is around 500 meters away.

Still no sign on openreach, I hope today I see some activity.

Here is an image to give a better picture.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/713/btcable.jpg/

Edited by deleted (Tue 15-Nov-11 11:57:05)

Zarjaz,

Sounds like there wasn't enough free length of wire to connect up to the BT66 after it broke somewhere - I've got 2 pairs of single core within one outer casing coming from underground entering the BT66 ('T' logo'), which have been there nearly 40 years, and could easily be broken if not handled carefully...

Ok so BT came around today, and said that the road would have to be dug up to my front door. There would be a hole drilled in the wall of the house for the cable to enter and the line would be at the front door.

I am not happy with that as all of my equipment is in the hallway and theres no plugs at the front door.

I said to him about trying to salvage the cable in the house, by making a hole in the wall and getting the second pair by breaking the gray cable further on down to get at the broken black wire, the second face plate would be then stuck there. This would avoid digging up the roads to get a second phone line.

HOWEVER he said it was not BTs responsability to make holes in the wall, so he said I would have to do this myself, then get the BT person around to fit the faceplate.

I will be taking my master socket off tonight to have a look at the condition of the cable to see if I can cut further on down to get at the black wire. I will post pictures up before I do any work as I am scared of breaking the first phone line and then I have no choice but to have the road dug up.

Hellish,

Best not to mess with the NTE5 master socket yourself otherwise you may end up with a very large bill!

Can you run an extension(s) from the new master NTE5 socket(s), fitted with filtered face plate(s), at the front door with possiby one or two of these, or similar, http://www.clarity.it/acatalog/adsl_extensions.html - DUAL: 1 x RJ45(ADSL/Data) & 1 x BT (two if you require broadband and phone on both lines.) ?

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Hellish,

Best not to mess with the NTE5 master socket yourself otherwise you may end up with a very large bill!

Can you run an extension(s) from the new master NTE5 socket(s), fitted with filtered face plate(s), at the front door with possiby one or two of these, or similar, http://www.clarity.it/acatalog/adsl_extensions.html - DUAL: 1 x RJ45(ADSL/Data) & 1 x BT (two if you require broadband and phone on both lines.) ?

Yes I could do that. But I am very scared that would reduce my adsl speeds. I have had extensions before and I lost 1meg sync speed.

Did you use cat5 cable for the extensions previously though?

Probably not. So cat5 cable is the same as network cable? I would be guaranteed not to lose sync speed.

I really am tempted to fix the existing cable, if I mess up my first phone line I would just cancel that phone line and get a new one in with the new cable they would be putting in.

In order to guarantee 100% no reduction in sync and throughput speed you would have to put the router as close as possible to the new NTE5 then run the extension as an ethernet (data) connection to your computer. If that is not convenient then the adsl signal together with the filtered voice signal sent along 2 pairs of a cat5 to a suitably located dual socket would probably minimize any loss of sync. That would require a filtered faceplate on the nte5, such as the pressac http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pressac-NTE5-compatible-filt... with the adsl connected to the A&B terminals and voice connected to the 2&5 terminals on the back of the faceplate.

Alternatively, you could run unfiltered voice and adsl along one pair of the cat5 from the master NTE5 to a filter/splitter socket on the other end of an extension but that perhaps might not be so good.

Sorry I still feel uneasy about your intention to mess with the existing master nte5 since BT/OR engineers might still need to check your current wiring...

Edited by 4M2 (Thu 17-Nov-11 16:35:58)

I am sorry you feel uneasy about my intention to fix the existing cable but I am going to go ahead anyway. What is the name of the plate which BT fit to the two wires coming from the gray cable. (is it the NTE5 faceplace?) I will buy one tomorrow, (could you please provide a link where to buy one) and fit the phone line myself.

Thanks.

BT gray cable do you mean cable from the outside, i.e. telephone exchange. That is the NTE5 socket.

The removeable part, which you are allowed to play with a faceplate.

Sourcing a genuine Openreach part, complete with logos is the challenge

Yes I meant the BT gray cable from the outside. Would the NTE5 socket have to be Openreach branded? Surely someone somewhere sells these things. Would my local electrical wholesaler sell them?

Just to be 100% clear about this: do you want to fit a master NTE5 (e.g. http://www.amazon.co.uk/NTE5a-BT-section-connection-... ) to the currently unused pair at a point were the wire is undamaged? If that grey cable is officially exchange side of the current master NTE5 then I definitely wouldn't mess with it.

In reply to a post by 4M2:

Just to be 100% clear about this: do you want to fit a master NTE5 (e.g. http://www.amazon.co.uk/NTE5a-BT-section-connection-... ) to the currently unused pair at a point were the wire is undamaged? If that grey cable is officially exchange side of the current master NTE5 then I definitely wouldn't mess with it.

Yes that is correct.

If I dont do this then BT have to dig the road up and drill a hole in my home. The BT man said its costing BT £1000 to do these works if I go ahead. I would be saving BT money doing it my way.

I am also peed off BT wont atempt to fix the broken pair in my hallway, and instant on getting the diggers out.

Edited by deleted (Thu 17-Nov-11 17:14:08)

Openreach or BT logo branded, if not they know it was not fitted by them, and after future fault visit may incur a regularisation charge.

If you mess up the wiring job and BT felt the need for a new drop wire, then can bill you for the cost too, i.e. if not sure about what you are doing and not using genuine parts the risk of a you or a future resident having issues are higher.

Personally I would be happy with 2 new pairs to my external junction box BT66 (and a single pair within external quality cat5 on to the NTE5) because the originals have been there nearly 40 years and do seem rather brittle

In reply to a post by Hellish:

I am sorry you feel uneasy about my intention to fix the existing cable but I am going to go ahead anyway. What is the name of the plate which BT fit to the two wires coming from the gray cable. (is it the NTE5 faceplace?) I will buy one tomorrow, (could you please provide a link where to buy one) and fit the phone line myself.

Thanks.

I bought this one which looks identical to the official openreach ones about a year ago.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-OPENREACH-BT-MASTE...

There is one part of the house which already has a hole in it for an outside plug. If BT were to run the wire inside this hole, would the electrical cable for the plug interfer with the phone line in anyway?

Ok I have got the black cable back. I will ring Openreach tomorrow and ask them to fit the second faceplate. Heres a pic of my handy work.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/img20111117...

looks like a winner to me so well done !

i have in the past had a few punters do the same thing but its not a thing we can do.

years ago when thinking was ok i have dig down on to a u/g cable and pulled it out of the house and fixed it on to the outside wall to save the cost of a new cable to the house , i would not do it now ! : (

In reply to a post by Hellish:

the second faceplate.

You mean the second master socket .

As btbert says, well done.

Ok I rang BT and they said they would be sending someone around prob next week. They have also said theres no spare capcity at the telephone cabinet and they will have to lay new cables. Does this mean I will be getting new copper cables most of my route to the telephone cabinet?

Also the person fitting the phone line wont be the same person who fits my Infinity? I will have ordered infinity over a month ago next week so I cant bare to wait another week for the BT infinity to be installed.

I doubt if they will lay new cables in a week, but maybe.

Is there a reason for not just migrating your existing broadband to Infinity? Or have I missed it somewhere?

Bob,

I thought the redundant pair was normally maintained as a viable connection all the way from the premises to the exchange via the cabinet? Perhaps the unused redundant pair only runs between the premises and the cabinet, or not even that far, and is not actually connected at the cabinet.

Usually only premises to the cabinet, if all drop pairs were connected the cost of lines would shoot up

Thanks Andrew,

So limited capacity at the cabinet would imply the need for additional cabling between the exchange and the cabinet.

However if FTTC was ordered then perhaps the unused pair could be used to the premises or does that still require a copper connection for voice between the cabinet and the exchange?

FTTC is still only done over a line with active voice line rental on it.

Naked DSL is not done by BT to avoid situations where a line with just DSL and no voice signal gets reused by mistake. In theory the newer test kit engineers have should avoid this.

Naked DSL over FTTC would be good though, especially for folks who use different forms of voice communication, e.g. mobile phones etc. Although as it stands line rental for both voice and broadband is still obligatory...

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

I doubt if they will lay new cables in a week, but maybe.

Is there a reason for not just migrating your existing broadband to Infinity? Or have I missed it somewhere?

I am currently with SKY LLU, and they wont release me from my contract. I would have to wait until Janurary.

Getting the second phone line is free, and when I cancel my SKY I can just disconnect the first phone line.

Hellish,

Will there be a cessation of broadband charge on the first phone line after you get the second line up and running - maybe 25 quid or something?

BTW. these people http://www.directsavetelecom.co.uk/dst_option1.php will install a new line for £49.95, but that is on an 18 month contract, and you could possibly take FTTC from another ISP...

Edited by 4M2 (Fri 18-Nov-11 15:11:16)

The second pair in a direct in ground UG feed will most likely go as far as the nearest joint box outside the premises.

In reply to a post by Zarjaz:

The second pair in a direct in ground UG feed will most likely go as far as the nearest joint box outside the premises.

b*cat nods in agreement, on reading the words of a man who should know.

Is it also true that an external or direct in ground UG feed can only have a max two metres internal length due to fire regulations?

How many man hours would it take BT to feed new cable from the joint box to the telephone cabinet which is around 500 meters away?

Then im guessing a cable from the telephone cabinet to the exchange is also required?

I'm not aware of that. Perhaps Zarjaz will be able to enlighten us, please?

I wouldn't get carried away. Nobody is going to dig 500 metres of cable in to the cabinet. Let alone install a new pressurised eside to the cabinet.

They'll either dig a new duct and cable up your garden to the exterior wall or a faultsman with clue will dig outside and pick up the existing as it enters the cavity and bang it up the outside wall. My bet is on the former.

I thonk there is considerable confusion, starting at

They have also said theres no spare capcity at the telephone cabinet and they will have to lay new cables.

That to me implies no spare (working) pairs E-side, but I find it hard to believe as the beginning of this thread was just about the engineer messing up. So that problem wasn't present just a few days ago.

For my money. If their aint no esides, the provide wouldn't be appointed until the planners had conjured up some more.

This sounds more like a routed pair leading to an appointment date and a subby installer breaking off pair two in the lead in butt and panicking. Can't blame him, prolly wasn't mentioned on the three day course.

Standby for some local digging.

Yes, I agree, and it's where we started. I guess he was just given duff info in that phone call.

But the OP has retrieved the end of the broken wire .

Yep, they reckon that the sheathing gives off toxic fumes if burnt. I believe it's only 1m, that goes for dropwire too.

I should be OK then - just got less than a metre of old unused droplead in a cavity near the front door

Ok had the same contractor come. He said there was two spare pairs at the manhole under the road which is beside my property. But he said BT still have not put in cable between that manhole and another point along the way. I dont think it was up to the telephone cabinet, it was between two of those BT manholes where the cable is missing.

So now I must wait again... he filed a report 3 weeks ago when he was last here. He says BT havent bothered installing the cable yet...

So now hes filed a report for the second time.

My question, how do I know BT will fit the cable this time?

I am getting angry its been one month and 2 weeks since I ordered the line and still nothing.

Edited by deleted (Fri 02-Dec-11 11:51:10)

Helliish,

Are the contractors saying that the unused pair is physically missing between the manholes or are they unable to locate it? Seems very odd that there is an unused pair at the cabinet and another unused pair from your property to the adjacent manhole.

He says physically missing, and needs to be put in. When I said oh is it from my property manhole to the cabinet he said no, its from some manhole along the route. He said the cabinet was fine. The cabinet is 600 meters away. I think ive seen like 5 manhole covers along the route to the cabinet. So somewhere between those manholes the cable is missing im guessing.

I have the phone number of the guy from openreach who came around when I thought the road had to be dug up to put the cable in. He is an Access Build Engineer. Would it be worth my while phoning him and asking him to put me on contact with someone from openreach on the ground who can look into this physically for me (I do not trust that contractor one bit and feel he isnt very qualified)

Edited by deleted (Fri 02-Dec-11 13:12:35)

I cant believe contractors are doing this work. Its awful enough when all they have to do is put a socket on the wall.
You need a qualified BT engineer to do a 1057 / pair prove - he would get the line either to your property or tag it either end of a blocked cable (i.e. fully used or faulty) and make the necessary arrangements for an additional cable (if manhole was too deep for him and a buddy to pull one in themselves). Contractors dont have access to the numerous systems and records bt egineers do. I have been to numerous jobs passed back by contractors requesting a line be provided only to find there are spare "stopped" (i.e. voltage on them but not being used) pairs waiting at the dp. Make a complaint and demand a proper BT openreach engineer.

C.

If you can somehow get Openreach involved with the problem that would probably be best if you feel the contractor is not fully qualified.

OK folks line is working now had BT guy sort it out yesterday. Now the problem is BT cant go ahead with my order for infinity. They said they have to wait until their system updates to say the line is fully working. This could be a couple of days.

I was telling him, the line is WORKING, but computer said no, so nothing he can do.

Im betting it will be over 2 months since I ordered infinity before I actually get it. Not holding much luck I get it before christmas.