Starting a broadband service where a service exists

The home mover FAQ contains the following:

I have moved, but my provider is telling me that someone is camped on my line, what do I do?

The phrase 'camped on the line' is used to describe a situation, where you have moved into a property and took over the telephone line, but the old broadband is still active.

Your broadband provider should wait three days for the tag to clear and place a broadband order after this. If the tag fails to clear then given proof that you have taken over the telephone line they will arrange for the old broadband to be removed.

Is this (the italicised bit) true?

I signed up to Zen ten days ago. They told me there's already someone using the line (I moved into the house about six weeks ago). I have asked them to cease their broadband but they clearly haven't done it yet (it was a contract owned by the previous resident's employer... my guess is that bureaucracy is stopping anything getting done).

Zen claim that there's nothing they can do until they get a MAC, and I assume this is the case for all ISPs.

So can someone simply stop you getting broadband by camping on a line?

Edited by deleted (Thu 17-Oct-13 13:36:30)

A MAC is irrelevant as you aren't migrating a service you are starting a new one (the old one has to be terminated as you cannot transfer it to your name).

Zen should be able to start a new order process that effectively slams the line. The old provider should send a letter to the address (old owner) telling them that the line is being slammed and if there was an issue with this then they should contact - as they are no longer at the address they obviously won't get the letter and stop the transfer.

Once that has cleared then the old provider should terminate the connection and Zen should be able to reprovide.

You have to remember you also need to take over the voice line and that process doesn't use MACs at all anyway.

PS: You would effectively be using the same process as in this thread but for the purpose it was created (whereas in that thread it was done by accident in error).

Edited by ian72 (Thu 17-Oct-13 12:43:49)

Did you sign up to Zen for phone and broadband, or just broadband? If just broadband, who have you signed up to for the phone?

Or are you just using the line, (and broadband?), that is still there?

Thanks, but I should be clear: I'm only talking about broadband here.

Yeah, Zen say it's possible to slam the line but only if voice/landline services are transferred to Zen too. I don't want to do that; I chose my phone provider based on low line rental costs and have only just transferred to them (hence the four week gap between moving in and signing up to Zen).

Did you sign up to Zen for phone and broadband, or just broadband? If just broadband, who have you signed up to for the phone?

Just broadband. Phone with Primus.

Or are you just using the line, (and broadband?), that is still there?

I'm using the Primus line that has been recently transferred, yes.... not sure if that's what you meant.

I changed the thread title... maybe "taking over a line" suggested this was phone line too... apologies!

The act of Primus taking the line should have cleared the broadband as well as the line is now in your name. But it might take a few days for the tags to clear.

The line was transferred ten days ago (eight working days). Any idea how many days that should take?

Hmm, in that case I would say Zen should be able to deal with it. As they can't I'm not sure where you can go next I'm afraid. Sorry.

The phone number didn't change, does that affect it?

When Primus take over the line Zen should be able to place BB. As this has already happened it's strange. As to why they would keep you using a previous tenants number is strange - afterall you'll be getting the previous tenants calls. They should have transferred your old number over OR given you a brand new number.

As Primus is cheap & perhaps not the best at doing things I suspect they may have done something not quite perfect (that's just my guess).

no, change of billing should have ceased the broadband.

Sounds like Zen is having a computer says no moment, particularly as mentioning a MAC, try one of their reps on the forums of a twitter feed. They should do some checks to make sure you are authorised, i.e. rent/own property and then go ahead forcing a cease and provide

Was the line working prior to primus being involved ? if so then maybe the changes haven't been completed yet, so primus don't yet have the line
Get in touch with primus to make sure ,your primus order has completed , if they say it has, then ask them why you are still unable to place a bb order with another supplier

I had the email from Primus saying it was completed ten days ago...

Thanks to everyone for their help.

Edited by deleted (Thu 17-Oct-13 15:23:25)

Then you would have to find out from primus if they are in any way preventing you getting a bb service from another supplier, if their not then they must be able to get the existing bb ceased ? if not are you able to use the bb ? if so you may be able to find out which ISP is providing the bb on the line, and then you could try contacting them and explaining the situation, they could at least then contact their customer regarding it

Should be nothing to do with if they have the line or not (although if they had the line it is easier to get the issue resolved from their part) but as you have been told it is the broadband provider who should get this sorted out, I am surprised Zen are asking for a MAC as they are normally quite good with this sort of thing, maybe an idea to pick up the phone to them and explain it so they know for sure as they may just be misunderstanding the position.

In reply to a post by ukhardy07:

As to why they would keep you using a previous tenants number is strange - afterall you'll be getting the previous tenants calls. They should have transferred your old number over OR given you a brand new number.

In my experience that is pretty standard. When I moved into my house I signed up to the line and because they didn't take their number it was the one assigned to me.

Even if you had a "new" number it wouldn't be new. They recycle old numbers all the time and so likelihood is that the number will have been used by someone else before.

I've tried to explain a few times, trouble is I think you get re-directed to the same person, and either I have explained or understood things poorly or she simply doesn't understand.

Well, Zen filed something called a "tags query", which came back confirming the broadband service has not been ceased.

So basically, I cannot get broadband.

They can only offer two solutions: getting the MAC, which I've already told them is unlikely to happen, and ceasing the phone circuit and re-activating, which I assume will cost me a lot of money, both in terms of re-activating and also as I'm already in a contract with Primus.

I don't really understand how the broadband supply system can possibly work for home movers?

As you are not the account holder for the old account then getting the MAC will not be possible.

Zen can push through an order in theory, the answer is if one ISP says not possible do not believe them until more providers have said the same.

I wonder if I have to provide documentary evidence of owning the house to BT Wholesale? Otherwise I suppose some unscrupulous broadband supplier *could* "push through an order".

Still no point MAC is linked to the account holder, if they are no longer paying then the service should be ceased, if they are still paying then you are in a very odd housing situation.

Yes the tags process can allow providers to do naughty stuff and push a cease on the broadband side (without affecting PSTN) and then do a broadband provide.

As far as I am aware, they are still paying, yes.

I doubt it's that odd. Many employers pay for their employees broadband. And employers, being businesses, can take a long time to do things, if they do anything at all. £30 a month is unlikely to be noticeable.

Does this "forcing" have a special name or terminology?

Cease and provide of the broadband service to resolve a marker/tag issue

Have you any way of contacting the previous owner of the property, to ask their employer to cease the broadband? Possibly via your solicitor to theirs?

Or! Better!

Is it likely they have Mail Redirect in operation? In which case send them a letter to your address and it should be re-directed to their new one.

Yes I was in contact with the previous occupant and initially they were informing me of progress, but they've stopped responding to emails now (they could be on holiday of course).

Pity you didn't get the service login details from them .

That has crossed my mind!

Ummm ...
You don't have a router with TR-069 do you? [evil chuckle]

(There's quite a few services use that these days for connection)

Edited by RobertoS (Wed 23-Oct-13 20:20:41)

No, a very old but trustworthy Netgear!

Why would having the same router help, aren't the connection credentials etc stored in the individual router's memory?

If the ISP is using TR-069 then a TR-069 capable router can pick up everything including the username and password from the ISP's system. The phone number is recognised and the link set up.

Takes 15 minutes or so on PlusNet - their booklet tells you to go away and have a cuppa, then come back .

So I phoned up Andrews & Arnold for a second opinion. They, in common with Zen, say they cannot enact a "cease and provide" because they don't own the tag.

Their only real suggestion was to try to get the landline provider to clear it. As I'm in the early stages of a contract I'm probably in a poor negotiating position, so I fear the worst.

I tried with Primus, but they won't do anything. I tried phoning Ofcom but they won't do anything either. This is crazy.

The existing broadband is with a supplier called "VTL Internet". Might anyone know who that is so I can contact them?

If this information is for the correct company and is correct, VTL Internet Ltd was struck off the roll in September 2011 and no longer exists. It's possible lines with their tag are now being run by another company - Zen or AAISP may be able to get contact details for you from BT Wholesale.

A further problem with trying to unravel the previous broadband is that you're a third party to that contract and have no right to bring it to an end - though you may be able to demonstrate the existing broadband should be ceased or migrated to you (in which case you'd get a MAC) if you can show the user has left the property.


This is beginning to fall into the "world of pain to sort out" bracket. It's a shame that you'd already entered into a phone contract with a cheap provider, who probably won't be that interested in helping you. They're providing the voice service they're contracted to provide.

I think the only quick and easy ways to sort this are to force a PSTN cease and reprovide on the existing line if you can, or have a second line installed.

Primus may agree to implement a PSTN cease and reprovide if you agree to pay their costs and possibly start a new minimum contract period with them.

Another way to force a PSTN cease and reprovide would be to negotiate early migration away to another provider who agrees in advance to cease and reprovide the line for you if that proves necessary. It may be best to contract with the new provider on a "phone and broadband" basis, so the new provider breaches the contract if they fail to get broadband working for you. Zen may be able to help as the new provider. Though I don't believe Primus can resist early migration away, they may well try to hold you to the charges for the remainder of the minimum contract period. Still, that may be cheaper than having a second line installed and any costs you incur by losing the existing number by ceasing the non-broadband line at the expiry of the minimum contract period with Primus.

The cease and provide for when this person moved into the property and put the line with Primus should have triggered a cease of the ADSL services already.

To the poster I suggest you point out to the broadband provider you are trying to sign up with, what Ofcom has to say about tags:
http://ask.ofcom.org.uk/help/internet-service/tagrem...

If the providers do stone wall completely, then email me [email protected] with pertinent details and will attempt to chase up with Openreach/BT Wholesale directly.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The cease and provide for when this person moved into the property and put the line with Primus should have triggered a cease of the ADSL services already.

Indeed, Andrew - I'm surprised that there hasn't been a cease and reprovide already. My suggestions were on the assumption that somehow the OP has taken control of the existing service and migrated it to Primus, or simply got stonewalled by all involved.

Hopefully you can work with the OP to persuade BT Wholesale / Openreach of the error of their ways and get the tag cleared if the OP fails to achieve this by themselves. There is no reason why the tag should not be cleared based on what has already occurred.

Yeah, to clarify it was *I* who changed the landline provider to Primus. When I first moved into the house I was told I should sort the landline out first, then broadband (as I'd expressed a desire to separate the two).

I have contacted the employer of the previous occupant, who paid for the broadband. They were surprisingly helpful. I'm expecting a call back... but I really have no idea how likely this is.

Zen have stated to me that the Ofcom page about tags is not relevant to this case: https://forum.zen.co.uk/forums/permalink/45606/45605...

In reply to a post by gravelld:

Yeah, to clarify it was *I* who changed the landline provider to Primus. When I first moved into the house I was told I should sort the landline out first, then broadband (as I'd expressed a desire to separate the two).

That is the odd part as the transfer of phone to you and a new provider should have automatically terminated the broadband (normally any change of who the phone line is contracted to would cancel the broadband as well).

I'm beginning to wonder Primus haven't done something they should've.

The best solution then is for them to supply a MAC, as suggested by Zen. That avoids VTL doing a Cease on the line that either they or you would have to pay for. (In the region of £30).

It would also work quicker, as a cease takes time and you can't order until it completes, as the tag is not removed until completion. Then you have another wait after ordering. With a MAC it all happens at the same time, usually within a few days.

What if the line was already with Primus and they just changed the account on their system?

Yes, well after this whole debacle I'm not too confident in best-case scenarios working out

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

What if the line was already with Primus and they just changed the account on their system?

Possible but unlikely, I would've thought, for a line installed soley by an employer / large business. I dunno.

Agree, I think the Primus market share is probably low enough that it is unlikely.

If they had, then the tag would not be a VTL one, but a new call telecom or maybe TalkTalk one

How so Andrew?

Any of us could have line rental from Primus with other broadband.

Not if the previous owner had a Primus phone line before his employer provided the broadband on it. Or do you know that the employer paid their phone bill directly, (if they paid it), rather than through expenses?

If Primus had done something daft and ordered a full LLU line + broadband rather than just WLR product

I noticed a few other threads pointing here, so I thought I'd provide an update.

This is still dragging on. I was eventually informed that the current service with Vodafone was ceased on the 9th October. My understanding is that Vodafone sold their ADSL business to Plusnet. So, assuming Plusnet's Ts&Cs apply, that's a 30 day cease period (for the love of God I assume that's not working days) which means it should've been cease by Monday.

But as you'd expect for this sorry excuse for a system, the tag remains.

Personally I think 30 day cease periods should be banned. They are totally non-competitive. Seems like the same bunch of numpties that designed the energy and railway "markets" designed this one too.

Over two months without the fourth utility and counting.

Ummmm.

I wonder who told you that about Vodafone.

Just that at one time Vodafone broadband was a BT Wholesale White label service. As you say, (I believe) their customers were transferred to PlusNet long ago. However I would have thought the customer would have known they were with PlusNet.

Since then, Vodafone have bought C & W. If the tag on the line is Vodafone I would think that's what the ceased service was, and nothing to do with PlusNet.

Well, I think I found that Plusnet purchased Vodafone with a web search myself, but this info may have pre-dated the purchase of C&W. I suppose the point is that even after more than 30 days of a supposedly ceased service the tag remains.

I was able to get a little more out of Primus today. The quality of their customer services reps appear very variable, but I suppose you get what you pay for. They will apparently try a stop and start by Friday. We'll see...

I hope you don't mind me updating this with the latest.

Well, Primus's promise to perform the stop/start by last Friday 15th turned into Thursday 21st (yesterday). Then, when I phoned this morning to check progress, they informed me they didn't want to do it after all and I would have to pay about £55 for the pleasure. No thanks. Another two weeks wasted.

I phoned Ofcom next who informed me that it depends on whether the tag is *active* or not... you can have inactive tags. Regardless of that, they said, if I have exhausted all possibilities then it's down to the gaining provider to look into why the tag is active when the service is ceased.

I spoke to Zen and they refuse to do this.

I then spoke to Andrews & Arnold who have suggested it is possible to ask BT Wholesale about this. They referred to some "grey area" where active tags can be removed. So if they can do something about it then they get the business.

Edited by deleted (Fri 22-Nov-13 11:52:05)

Well I thought I'd bring this thread to a close... I'm posting this via an ADSL line!

My next steps were to approach Ofcom about this. Their general response was that the gaining broadband provider (Zen) should be doing more to sort the situation out, whether the tag is "active" or not. So I went back to Zen, who refused to do anything because they maintained that an active tag meant their hands were tied.

So at that point I went back to Andrews & Arnold. A&A said it could be sorted with a phone call to Openreach, so I told them the business was theirs if they could fix it. Sure enough, phone calls were made and Openreach soon confirmed the tag would be removed. There was a slight hiccup when it wasn't removed when expected, but after chasing by A&A the situation was remedied, I placed the order and it took four further days (one day faster than estimated) for the "i" LED to light up on my router.

Why Zen couldn't have done that from the start I don't know. It strikes me that ISPs don't fully understand their responsibilities, or at least their staff aren't fully trained in the possibilities.

It's hard to understand how Zen, who have a reputation second only to AAISP, failed to handle this. But it isn't the first, or even second time I've seen weird failures like this by Zen support reported on these forums. It isn't even as though I costs them. Failing to gain the customer certainly does so, both financially and reputationally. (Spellchecker doesn't like that!)