BT Open Reach

My son uses BT for his broadband - (and phone) although he rarely uses the phone itself. Several weeks ago he started getting a problem with their line. Open Reach investigated and have not done any repairs yet. They told him that the problem was a number of metres along the line and the last we heard they were trying to get access to a property to get to a pole. They told him that they had written to the owner - but the house is empty (we have told engineer (I caught him on the day he was looking) and the call centre who have not been helpful at all. They are not keeping him updated and it is looking unlikely that he will get his internet back this side of Christmas. My question is - is there anyone we can complain to and use them to lean on Open Reach/ BT to get them communicating and moving to repair this line. From what I have seen the pole can be accessed from another garden - I can't see what the problem is - unless that engineer I spoke to didn't know what he was doing!!!!

My question is - is there anyone we can complain to and use them to lean on Open Reach/ BT to get them communicating and moving to repair this line.

Yes, speak to BT.

" From what I have seen the pole can be accessed from another garden - I can't see what the problem is - unless that engineer I spoke to didn't know what he was doing!!!! "

Sad to say its not just a case of throwing a ladder against the pole and running up it any more. We need to get to the pole to test it and put a lable on the base of the pole ect ect , get caught not doing any of it and its P45 time.

That is the point I am making - my son is trying to talk to them but it is an impossible task - no-one seems to know what is what and they keep telling him they will send someone else to the house - but no-one turns up! Not that they can do anything - the engineer who comes to the house can't go up the poles! Different equipment - so different engineer. He has asked to speak to a manager - which he did - he was told it would be done on Friday, - but nothing has happened. - You can't talk directly to anyone - you just get someone in a call centre and no communication with the engineers on the ground. It has now been 3 weeks without a phone line - he has no other means of getting internet. But if the pole in question is in the property that is now empty because the owner has gone into a home - miles away - sending a letter to this property isn't going to get anywhere. My son has told them this. No-one can give him answers and he is not convinced that they really know where the fault is. Absolute lack of communication and total frustration.

Oh nice - a BT person! No it isn't a case of running a ladder up a pole - there is a problem with vegetation/ tree. But if it is the pole that was pointed out to me then access can be gained to the tree from the garden on the other side - I have looked at a bird's eye view of the gardens. Do you have to gain permission to go onto land before work is done? I thought legal niceties were sorted when the poles were put on the land in the first place.

I'd suggest that your son phones BT, pointedly (but politely) asks the name of the person he is speaking to and notes it down. The pause while he writes it down will get their attention. Now use the expression "formal complaint". They will still try to wriggle but you have set the ball rolling. I would also suggest that he tells them that he will be sending a copy of the complaint to BT in writing. And do so, don't bluff. If you do not do this your "formal complaint" is likely to evaporate at their end. He will need to check the back of the paper bill (in the unlikely event that he gets one) or dig through the ts and cs on the BT web site to find the BT complaint process. Or possibly some kind soul on this forum is familiar with it and can point to it.

At least after this you will no longer have an open ended wait. If BT don't respond as described in their complaints process then you have the right to escalate it further, again as described in their complaints process.

Good luck.

John

While a complaint about the way things have been handed may be justified access to poles and cutting back of stuff to gain safe access can be a long drawn out affair.

An empty house with no-one answering the door does not give Openreach the automatic right to do stuff, their code powers might after a period of time when a landlord/owner has proven not contactable, but that is beyond the local faults engineers and more to do with the legal teams.

Do you have to gain permission to go onto land before work is done?

I'd have to say yes, if it's private land. It sounds like there's branches to be cut down too ..... these don't belong to Openreach either, so the owners permission must be sought.

As Bert says, it ain't as cut and dried as perhaps you imagine.

My son has been told after over 100 attempts to get through to speak to someone who knows - you get put through to a call centre whose only response is to say they will send an engineer to the house - and then put through from one department to another with no-one really knowing what the problem is. He spoke to someone yesterday in the end who says that we have to find the owner of the land and get his permission to do the work! I am sorry but that is not right. If they can't access this pole then they should provide him with a new line - he suggested that and they told him they would have to bill him for digging up the road (the supply is overhead and they have just provided service to a new house a few doors away - no roads have been dug up). If this was one of our couple of elderly vulnerable neighbours what would they do then! There must be some outside body who can advise us and tell us how to proceed because BT seem to have just wiped their hands of it.

You can try Ofcom but they do not deal with individual complaints.

If there is someone vulnerable they can register their line in advance and extra effort is made to keep a service running, which can mean things like mobile phones delivered to allow contact if a line is without voice service.

The only time Openreach would be allowed to trespass and remove the blocking green stuff would be this was deemed an emergency, e.g. car crashes into pole and pole is left in a dangerous condition.

No engineer will go onto any ones land unless they know they have the clearance, (a) it would mean the sack for breaking company policy and (b) they could be done for trespass individually.

If the phone is working well enough to make an emergency call then a crackly line will be down the list of priorities. That is the harsh reality, requesting BT to install a new telephone pole and run new copper is not going to win you many friends in the call centres.

Edited by MrSaffron (Wed 17-Dec-14 12:46:12)

They wouldn't have to erect a new pole - there is already one there! - It seems that is last resort - we are trying our best to find a telephone number for the gentleman's sister. Folks who may have known have also moved away. They can also use a cherry picker! It has been suggested. I am going to call on the owner of the land the other side - the pole is in the corner of his garden too.

Do you know where he is?

If so, the staff must have a contact number to his family, possibly someone with a Power of Attorney.

They will not give you that number, as it would be illegal for them so to do, but I see no reason why they could not relay a message to that person if you give them a short one to send asking for help. Ideally include your phone number in the message.

We have a mobile number ourselves but it seems to be constantly off. Bumped into relatives (estranged) yesterday and they have an address. Asked the neighbour about the pole - it is actually in HIS garden not the absent landowner. However he had problems a while back with his broadband - and took ages to get a response - the pole leans towards the absent gentleman's property and has to be climbed from there because it wobbles! What a mess. But of course we had to investigate ourselves to find all this out - no info from Open Reach/ BT. My son now has a manager phoning him this evening so we can at least give all the information to someone who can do something about it. But I can't see anything being done this side of Christmas - that is if the land owner even bothers to respond. We so depend on our internet access these days - every thing is done on line so we are completely lost without it.

Doesn't sound like anyone should be climbing it if it wobbles! Surely it should be replaced before now if it's wobbling and leaning over...

Although maybe it is due, but hasn't been done due to the complications you've discovered yourself

If it is leaning and wobbles it will be classed as dangerous and a BT Tech will not be permitted to climb it. That means either a cherry picker if they can get close enough or a new pole. Does te pole have any labels on it?

Try raising the issue via:- http://bt.custhelp.com/app/contact_email/c/4950

This usually gets through to a UK based Team that I have found to be more responsive!

Thanks for that link - my son has been talking to people in Middlesborough and still can't get any satisfaction - he is getting handed from one person to another - got told all sorts of things. - like the manager will phone you tomorrow - what time is suitable - my son says 8 am. - no it will have to be a slot - 8-10 - wait a minute better give a second one just in case, 10-12. but if the guy in question is on the afternoon shift it may be 2-4 - etc etc - and then no-one phones. Another call said they had sent a letter to someone - my son asks who? Oh we can't tell you - in the end he gets a name out of them and the last digits of the phone number - no address - turns out this was the first engineer's name and the phone number was my son's own! I think they are just spinning out any story to keep him hanging on. There is no certainty at all that the fault is with the pole in question - only that it is 275 meters away from the house. I don't think communication between Open Reach and BT themselves is any good at all. My son still feels it is a coincidence that they haven't long added another house on our lane to the system and his line becomes faulty! He could go to another broadband provider but they would still have the same trouble getting a line.

In reply to a post by megjay:

Oh nice - a BT person! No it isn't a case of running a ladder up a pole - there is a problem with vegetation/ tree. But if it is the pole that was pointed out to me then access can be gained to the tree from the garden on the other side - I have looked at a bird's eye view of the gardens. Do you have to gain permission to go onto land before work is done? I thought legal niceties were sorted when the poles were put on the land in the first place.

Sounds like perhaps the pole hasn't been tested within the test cycle. If that's the case no one can climb it until a pole tester assesses it first and puts a label on to say it is safe to climb. If you can access the pole could you take a photo of any labels that are on it for us?

You may be able to establish who is/are the owners via the Land Registry; or less certain, use the Electoral Roll available on Find My Past-

www.findmypast.co.uk

192.com may be another route.

only that it is 275 meters away from the house.

How many spans (between the property or pole to pole) are there to the pole in question ?

6 spans I think from memory and google earth! Then there is the span across the garden from the house -

Today my son had a message to say that they were carrying out traffic management and vegetation cutting - nothing has happened! He is now out of the country for Christmas so BT have our number to contact for any access needed.

On one hand he was told that we had to find out the land owner's details, and on the other they say they won't tell him the address or name of where the problem is!

Following the line along ourselves it has got to be this pole they are talking about - there is a cable that runs down the pole so it must go underground along the back gardens -

if they have overloaded the supply to our lane what will that mean workwise I wonder - new cables? Work at the exchange? There is some reason they are not telling us all the facts here.

We have established that the pole that the one engineer identified is not on the land that we were told - it is actually in the corner of the neighbours garden which was confirmed by the owner of that property - and that Open Reach have not contacted him at all. My son offered this information and the address to BT but they just won't confirm that this is where the problem is -

Ah, OK, so 6 spans will be around the 300m mark.

if they have overloaded the supply to our lane what will that mean workwise I wonder - new cables?

Isn't it just a noisy line ? A lack of capacity would mean no line at all.

If the pole is sufficiently wobbly, the fault could be at the top, particularly if your son's line is being tightened/stretched by the pole, ie the pole tends to lean away from your son's house.

Or it could be at the foot of the pole, where the cable down the poles leaves it to go in to the duct etc towards the exchange. In this case, I would expect that others would be affected as well.

Remember to take account of any vertical wire runs as well as any more obvious horizontal runs, when measuring.

Subject to someone else confirming the usual Reflection Point when using TDRs on phone lines from the Exchange end, it may be important to take account of the wiring within the house to the first working device, phone or broadband etc. My main experience with TDRs was generally with Ethernet and similar networks, within buildings and between such buildings within typical industrial estate limits.

-----------------------------

That neighbour may have a copy of the Wayleave for erecting the pole in his property; and may also receive some form of rental, so it may help progress the situation if he can find such documentary evidence.

Subject to someone else confirming the usual Reflection Point when using TDRs on phone lines from the Exchange end

Best to use the TDR as close to the fault as you can and to use on just a pr of wires ie with all the house kit dissed off .If used on naked wires its good to within .5 M so yep a good bit of kit. This is for the EXFO.

PS The TDR on the HAWK is a lot better for seeing a HR Diss.

Thanks, Bert.

Do you have any idea of what forms the main reflection, when used without any specific preparation, from the Exchange end, on a normal working line?

For example, if the nte is an NTE5, does the filter on its phone side, appear as the main reflection, or is it any piece of equipment on the Customer side of the NTE?

The wiring in the house has been checked! Not sure about the distance because the line from his house to the first pole goes across 2 gardens.

Anyway developments yesterday and today. - Got told the number of the pole - and asked to check it out! The owner of the house where the pole is really situated (not the absent owner) has had 2 emails sent apparently and hasn't replied - BT don't know his phone number. So I went around to see him and met him walking towards me. He wasn't very helpful - but he hasn't had any emails - BT don't have his email he said but he is a customer so of course they have his phone number. I asked him if he wouldn't mind looking for a number on the pole - but he really wasn't interested in helping! He told me that when he had trouble - about a year ago he threatened to chop the pole down if they didn't come out and do something! Another neighbor I bumped into said that Open Reach had been there a short while ago - they had gained access around the back of the house of the absent landowner - (without permission then) because they were investigating giving a line to a house that had been empty for a long time across the road.

Today an Open Reach van appears in our lane. It turns out they are there to provide a line for the new house - they have been waiting 3 months for it. They had a cherry picker too. He didn't know anything about my son's fault but said he would check it out for us and phone us later - He also said there is more room for further lines on our section. He said he would check out the jobs list and let us know when it is going to be done and phone us later - didn't think we would hear anything. I think my son has another couple of months to wait yet by the sound of it!!!! It just makes one want to sit down and cry!

BT fellow told my son they didn't know what could be done - they had only just got to talk to an Open Reach manager and it will be 10 days now before they can contact them again.

I use Google Earth for similar purposes; and you can get extremely and surprisingly accurate measurements on it, as I have proven by comparing such Google results with local known measurements.

It is the Icon that brings up "Show Ruler", along the top.

That will give you the horizontal components of the distance, to which you need to add any verticals.

Subject to anyone else knowing the likely verticals accurately, I suggest that you use 5 Metres for each vertical, subtracting those from the 275 M.

Thus bringing the fault apparently nearer his house, on the basis that the 275 M is "from his house".

Edited by deleted (Thu 25-Dec-14 08:54:30)

Thanks - have done that and the pole in question is less than 275 metres! The line then goes underground I think.

Quite a nice description of using TDRs-

http://www.hipotronics.com/Collateral/Documents/Engl...

=================

Is the pole leaning away from your son's house, hence tightening the cable; or is it towards the house, thus slackening it?

Is the pole leaning away from your son's house, hence tightening the cable; or is it towards the house, thus slackening it

I don't think it is anything to do with the pole leaning - it doesn't even look as if it is leaning to me - there is a box on this particular pole where we believe the problem lies - there are another 14 houses using the same line - and only my son is affected.

Morning Megjay

I had got the impression that there was/is a definite lean and wobble from your earlier post-

"the pole leans towards the absent gentleman's property and has to be climbed from there because it wobbles!".



However, the important point is that you now have greater certainty as to where the fault probably lies.

The 'leaning' pole is 6 poles away! If only it was as simple as the one nearest his house it would have been mended by now. My son says that they are trying to ring him every day - they let it ring once and stop - not giving him time to answer - he reckons that they will then say they have tried to update him. Oh we are getting so cynical!

In reply to a post by megjay:

The 'leaning' pole is 6 poles away!

Is that the pole with the box on it?

there is a box on this particular pole where we believe the problem lies

I believe I am right in saying that BT Openreach is part of BT and I would have thought the best advice at this stage of apparently impossible communication is that help should be sought from the Chairman of BT. I don't know his details but I'm sure someone at Think Broadband does (they always were known!). So -

Concise letter or email to Chairman of BT with copy to your MP. I write as one who used to deal with such escalated complaints for a different public utility.

Could this "ring once" be connected with the fault - anyone have knowledge of that possible sort of fault?

It's known as 'ring trip' and caused by low insulation A-B or B-Battery.

Thanks, Partial.

Another snippet of knowledge.


If that is the fault, I suspect that it would affect all incoming calls on that land line, eg from mobiles as well as, say, international etc.


Are there any known problems with making out-going calls on land-lines with such a fault, which would help in possibly confirming it?

Is it a fault that is associated with the described circumstances, of apparently being related to the outside line at the pole?


If most calls to and from this house are on mobiles only, both ways, the fault could be "undetected" etc for a long time from when it arose, unless it also impinged greatly on broadband usage.

--------------------

Just found amongst many-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringtone

Background
"
In POTS switching systems, ringing is said to be "tripped" when the impedance of the line reduces to about 600 ohms when the telephone handset is lifted off the switch-hook. This signals that the telephone call has been answered, and the telephone exchange immediately removes the ringing signal from the line and connects the call. This is the source of the name of the problem called "ring-trip" or "pre-trip", which occurs when the ringing signal on the line encounters excessively low resistance between the conductors, which trips the ring before the subscriber's actual telephone has a chance to ring (for more than a very short time); this is common with wet connections and improperly installed lines.
"

Edited by deleted (Wed 31-Dec-14 07:15:36)

Could this "ring once" be connected with the fault - anyone have knowledge of that possible sort of fault

Oh no - sorry should have been clearer - they are contacting him on his mobile - the land line is dead - when you try to ring it from outside it gives and engaged tone. He is not even in the country at the moment. The box is on the pole that is said to lean - the nearest pole to 275 metres away from the house.
This won't let me put a copy of a photo on here.

You can put a photo on a photo sharing site, like www.tinypic.com and post a link here.

Do other calls to his mobile ring more than once?

-------------------------

Although I actually did the final assembly of the first three mobile phones purchased by my employers back about 1990 (without any instructions etc), I have relatively little experience of them.

Does anyone know if it is possible to set any mobile to ring only once, to minimise disturbance etc?

For example, are there any where they can be set to ring once on incoming calls, then automatically switch to a vibrator?

http://i58.tinypic.com/2is70hc.jpg[/IMG]"]

Photo of the 'inaccessible' pole - the thicker line coming from the top of the picture is the one that comes across the fields from his house. The lines going from it go to the surrounding properties and a cable goes down the pole.

and in answer to Eckiedoo - yes other calls ring more than once - the ones that ring off straight away he suspects are from BT.

So a maybe 10 pair aerial cable from this, the DP, going off to the property.

At first glance, the obvious reason it cannot be climbed, is all the vegetation. Various tests have to be done, a 'pre-climb' check. Being unable to access the base of the pole for an initial hammer test would be a reason not to climb.

Clearly, due to it's location, a hoist will be of no use. It could be that the pole is out of test date too .... this would require a visit from a pole tester to check, these can take some time to arrange, more so when no access to the pole is agreed with the lands owner.

And the whole process is on hold - if only BT could be honest - I am posting on here now just to say how rubbish BT customer service is. My son said that the calls he received - where they let the phone ring once and then rang off were followed up with a text message saying - we tried to call you but you didn't answer. They have now sent him a text to say an engineer will have to call at the house - Good - poor engineer, he won't be able to get away until we get some answers!!! We have heard enough tall stories.

While my son was away BT had our number in case they wanted access to his house - we never heard anything of course but today we have had a message to say that BT have sent us a text message - on our land line!!!! So our phone informs us. We can't receive text messages on our land line. This is such a mess!

If you receive spoken text messages but don't have an answer phone or answering service, just call Text store on 0845 602 1111 to pick up messages. Please note that messages are only saved here for 24 hours.

They can't get a cherrypicker there so it is Kit Staging and an uninterested landowner. If they can't produce a wayleave, this one will run and run until planning come up with a new method of feed.

Oh well today an engineer phoned to say he was on his way and my son rushed home. The engineer agreed that this job should have been done ages ago and it has 'slipped' through the net. He climbed the offending pole from the property of the absent landowner. Told my son that the landowner on the other side didn't want the hedge cut down because it affects his privacy. So tomorrow some more engineers are coming out to see if they can give him a line from the next pole closer to his house!!! Does that make sense?

Anyway my daughter in law was coming home from school with my grandson and an engineer was working in the box on the pavement up the town - where my son saw someone working just before his line went dead. Guess what - they have the internet again tonight!

In reply to a post by megjay:

...
but today we have had a message to say that BT have sent us a text message - on our land line!!!! So our phone informs us. We can't receive text messages on our land line. This is such a mess!

Try calling 0845 602 1111


Have just seen Batboy has posted this too.

Edited by MHC (Tue 06-Jan-15 20:47:12)

lol

Hi,

Have you tried asking to leave BT? Is your son's area cabled with VirginMedia? I use them in a well cabled area and get nearly 50Mb! He could then transfer his phone to Virgin and that way he isn't using BT copper wire. Openreach are the ABSOLUTELY least contactable company in the world! This for a company that is suppose to specialise in communication! You would have more chance of contacting a martian on Mars!

HTH,

In reply to a post by mking90031:

Hi,

Have you tried asking to leave BT? Is your son's area cabled with VirginMedia? I use them in a well cabled area and get nearly 50Mb! He could then transfer his phone to Virgin and that way he isn't using BT copper wire. Openreach are the ABSOLUTELY least contactable company in the world! This for a company that is suppose to specialise in communication! You would have more chance of contacting a martian on Mars!

HTH,

It is easy to contact Openreach - if you have good reason to do so. The consumer is NOT an OR customer and it is OFCOM who insist on consumers going through other arms of BT and not direct.

Openreach are the ABSOLUTELY least contactable company in the world! This for a company that is suppose to specialise in communication! You would have more chance of contacting a martian on Mars!

You are so right! We (I am next door) live on a private lane - no other alternative I am afraid but I am very pleased to announce that 2 vans turned up just after lunch and the 2 engineers went and climbed the offending pole, opened the box and fiddled around for some time and everything seems to be working again. Just hope it stays that way. Now my son needs to get compensation for paying for a service that he didn't get for nearly 2 months, for the subscriptions he couldn't use, for all the phone calls he had to make, etc. I bet BT make it as hard as possible so that people just go away glad at last that they have a service.

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

He might get a reduction in his bill for the broadband. He is less likely to get money back for calls. And he is pretty much certainly not going to get money back for 3rd party services like subscriptions.

It is easy to contact Openreach - if you have good reason to do so. The consumer is NOT an OR customer and it is OFCOM who insist on consumers going through other arms of BT and not direct.

Well said.

I do hope the technical support you offer is a little sharper than the rationale behind posting two telephone numbers and an e-mail address on a public forum.

Hmm, a "fully qualified" IT professional whose website shows all the certifications - that being an MCP in Win 2000. And a website that uses Comic Sans as the font...

Of the same ilk as the punter I met, whose 'IT Professional' chum had come round to help replace his router for him. Plugged a microfilter and leads into the PSTN out of an obvious ADSL faceplate {he must have unplugged the correctly connected leads from the old router to do so} and left the poor sod without broadband over Christmas as a result .......

I find making no claims to be a professional anything is always the safest bet.

Oh my god. The (web-based) horror, the horror! There is absolutely no excuse for a "business" focussed IT company to have such a web-site, mired in 90s design techniques. And as for the twitter feed that is almost exclusively links to gumtree ads, you're not doing your reputation any favours.

RobC.

Was that meant to be a reply to this post(er)? I hope so - but using the Reply button on it would have made things much clearer .

Yep, it was. My bad! Trying to do too many things at once.

I think a few of us have looked around his website(s)

I noticed on his personal blog a link to an autism website so perhaps we should all have a read of that page and congratulate Mark on his business.

http://www.autism.org.uk/

Ian

Now, Now.

Everyone is free to criticise BT and many do whatever the status of their website. I am more concerned about CSEs climbing unsafe poles, poor measurements and lengthy delays that are referenced in this thread.

Edited by deleted (Fri 09-Jan-15 21:37:56)

Fair comment.