Noisy line and no broadband

My normally very slow broadband is completely down (fourth time in four years I think)

Broadband light (home hub 3) was flashing orange/purple.

Tried it in the test socket with an adsl filter, same issue (socket is an adsl faceplate).

Picked up the cordless phone, very noisy/crackly etc. Later on, listened again, no dial tone at all.

Plugged a corded phone into the test socket, with nothing else connected, similar noise sometimes. Then other times no dial tone - or the dial tone arrives after a few seconds, or goes silent after a few seconds.

I can sometimes ring the line and sometimes can dial out.

Presuming it is a fault with the line, somewhere between the cabinet and my house. Maybe rain related or a loop, or loose connection somewhere?

The BT line test says "customers property". Edit: Oooh, it has changed now to "Close to Customer's Property"

The email from BT asked me to book an appointment but it wouldn't let me book one online (using 4G hotspot!). I phone BT and they said an appointment isn't needed. They'll check outside the property by the 4th Dec, then call me to arrange an appointment after that if the issue is still present. Hmmm.

Edited by B31 (Sun 29-Nov-15 16:10:28)

Are you fed overhead ? It's been a windy few days.

No, it is all underground.

I'm wondering if the rain has made the line worse than normal.

In reply to a post by B31:

No, it is all underground.

I'm wondering if the rain has made the line worse than normal.

I know the wind and rain causes issues with our line with is above ground from our house to the pole, then its all under ground from there.

We also get an intermittent static whine noise on our phone line and the odd crackle, also that last bit of wind and rain we got killed our line for a few mins, sadly it came back up just as I was about to report it to BT on my mobile.

Paul

If it's a wet joint somewhere, then it'll stay wet even when there's no rain.

Home hub broadband light briefly went solid blue this morning.

Phone line still noisy.

Next time I looked it was back to its usual state of flashing orange purple.

Picked up the phone again, noisy, and the dial tone sounded for a second before cutting out. Just noise now.

In reply to a post by B31:

Home hub broadband light briefly went solid blue this morning.

Phone line still noisy.

Next time I looked it was back to its usual state of flashing orange purple.

Picked up the phone again, noisy, and the dial tone sounded for a second before cutting out. Just noise now.

I reckon its water logged, or loose wires.

Paul

Well, the broadband started working again just before lunch, and looks like it has been up most if not all of the day.

The line is still very noisy though.

line test recording (recorded on a phone plugged into the master socket, it also sounds similar on the cordless phone).

Edited by B31 (Mon 30-Nov-15 21:40:56)

Sounds like an HR to me ....

Cheers. I'll have a read up on that.

Just done a speed test, 0.5 Mbps and it gave up before it could test the upload.

Retried, got 0.55 Mbps down and 0.11 Mbps upload (although it was mostly on 0.00 Mbps during the test).

And that speed test was enough to make my broadband light start flashing orange and purple again!

An HR (high resistance) fault. Essentially a poor connection somewhere. A CIDT test performed by service provider may confirm its presence.

Hopefully I've done enough to avoid a nasty engineers fee! That's a nasty fee, not a nasty engineer!

I've tested the broadband and phone via the test socket, using an adsl filter. Tested the phone only, again in the test socket, with broadband off and unplugged. Tested the phones in the adsl filtered face plate too. The noise is present no matter what.

In reply to a post by B31:

Well, the broadband started working again just before lunch, and looks like it has been up most if not all of the day.

The line is still very noisy though.

line test recording (recorded on a phone plugged into the master socket, it also sounds similar on the cordless phone).

Just listened to the recording and that sound like a loose wire, like Zarjaz has said, possibly a loose connection.

Paul

I wonder if an engineer was working on the local CAB on Saturday.

Perhaps the connection came loose.

Wouldn't be the first time I've been disconnected accidentally, I hear the CAB is very untidy.

In reply to a post by B31:

I wonder if an engineer was working on the local CAB on Saturday.

Perhaps the connection came loose.

Wouldn't be the first time I've been disconnected accidentally, I hear the CAB is very untidy.

Its possible, those IDC connectors that are used in those cabinets are well terrible, all it takes is for an engineer to loose their insertion tool and end up using a small thing flat head screwdriver to push the wires through, I know I have seen some sub contractors do it.

Well we had an issue a while back where we along with several other homes on our phone pole ended up on each others lines, which resulted in another visit to all those homes, turned out a wad of wires got pulled out of the shield in the chamber and the engineer just assumed they went to where he put them.

As for them being tidy, LOL, you should see in ours, in ours it looks like a spiders web all screwed up into a ball or messiness LOL.

I have seen the new tool less panels that BT are moving over to soon, they will result in a much more tidy cabinet.

Paul

Yeah, swapping lines over is pretty bad!

My current speed test is

Download 0.14Mb/s
Upload 0.87Mb/s
Ping 1421 ms


As for messy CABs having seen some tidy and some very untidy data centres I can appreciate that! One floor tile had so many cables going through it there was no way you could trace a particular one and I'm not even sure how they got the last cable through the hole!

Don't think the broadband has been up at all today, nor was it working (at all) yesterday evening.

Just listened to the line several times, no dial tone.

Called my landline from my mobile, the phone rang and could be answered.

I now have a dial tone again, not sure how long for!

No update from BT yet. Their estimated fix time is 5pm tomorrow.

In reply to a post by B31:

Don't think the broadband has been up at all today, nor was it working (at all) yesterday evening.

Just listened to the line several times, no dial tone.

Called my landline from my mobile, the phone rang and could be answered.

I now have a dial tone again, not sure how long for!

No update from BT yet. Their estimated fix time is 5pm tomorrow.

Good luck.

Paul

Ta.

Still no news from BT, estimated fix date now breached.

I texted them yesterday, but they've not responded yet.

Customer services said they'd call me tomorrow morning (arranged when I called up on Sunday), so hopefully I'll get an update!

I imagine if its not in the cabinet it could be fun trying to find the damaged/loose connection.

I imagine if its not in the cabinet it could be fun trying to find the damaged/loose connection.

.... but that's what the engineers are trained to do.

I had a text message saying BT would call me as planned this morning

Well, no phone call.

Deadline slipped.

Might have to phone them up from my noisy line just to make a point. If I can get a dial tone!!!

Ended up phoning BT (and on my mobile as I couldn't get a dial tone!)

They booked me an appointment, confirmed all the details, advised it might be chargeable. They then read the engineer notes and said an appointment wasn't required at the moment!!!

They'd better hurry up as i've used almost 5GB on my 4G phone, 2GB left.

In reply to a post by B31:

Ended up phoning BT (and on my mobile as I couldn't get a dial tone!)

They booked me an appointment, confirmed all the details, advised it might be chargeable. They then read the engineer notes and said an appointment wasn't required at the moment!!!

They'd better hurry up as i've used almost 5GB on my 4G phone, 2GB left.

What do they mean by "an appointment wasn't required at the moment" are they taking the flipping mick.
I would ring them up on your mobile when your phone line is dead and demand them to do a flipping line test, your paying for a service that they cannot supply nor do they make any attempt to fix.

I say contact your local MP explain everything that has happened.
Or try and phone the people higher up, contact details at bottom of the page.
http://btplc.com/Thegroup/UKPublicAffairs/UK/Parliam...

It says "If you have an enquiry about your own home or business lines including new orders, please call the Parliamentary Helpline" they are open Mon-Fri 8am to 6pm.

Paul

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

What do they mean by "an appointment wasn't required at the moment" are they taking the flipping mick.

The earlier line tests seem to have indicated the fault is outside the property. So no visit required. Hence no appointment required.

Edited by RobertoS (Sat 05-Dec-15 12:47:55)

In reply to a post by RobertoS:

In reply to a post by PaulKirby:

What do they mean by "an appointment wasn't required at the moment" are they taking the flipping mick.

The earlier line tests seem to have indicated the fault is outside the property. So no visit required. Hence no appointment required.

Ohhh, silly me, I was thinking that they was not putting it down as a fault.
Well that is different, I take most of it back then LOL.

Paul

I've done dafter things .

Yeah presume a network fault, even though the diagram now shows "fault at customers property" again now.

They did a line test again.

The line isn't completely dead. It rings and you can answer it, very noisy still. Mostly no dial tone last few days, and no broadband for pretty much a week now.


They've agreed I'm owed compensation for phone and broadband from day 4 onwards.

Edited by B31 (Sat 05-Dec-15 14:18:06)

B31's problems could have been my own, which were described a month ago elsewhere on the Slow Broadband area. I have had identical and regular problems over the past eight years which was when I first started to use programs like Router Stats and the TB Speedtest.

Problems are not helped by my ISP, whose fault analysis equipment is unhelpful and often inaccurate. Each time there's a Broadband (BB) fault I still have to go through hours of socket tests, router re-starts, equipment disconnections etc etc before they'll call out BTO. Strangely, if I say the problem is phone line noise the engineer will be called out immediately - even if the phone is fine. Perhaps the phone service provider can't always hear line noise at the consumer's end of the line? But if I say it is slow a slow BB, typically, 25% of normal, I have to go through hours/days of pointless checks and testing before an engineer is booked. My problems are always line related so it matters not if the engineer is a phone-only man (some are and others are trained for both phone and BB).

My speeds are similar to the OP's, so we are frustrated even when our service is performing normally. My problems typically start with crackle on the phone when overhead cables rub through their insulation where they pass through trees and following windy, then damp/misty/wet weather. I'll lose the phone, then the BB service, which is more tolerant, a few days later.

This past week I've had very slow BB but no phone. The BTO engineer came on day 6 of the outage, and fixed that connection fine, but the BB has now lost 75% of the speed it had when the phone wasn't working.

I wondered, why? "It's probably down to the DLM - Dynamic Line Management - software at the exchange" (engineer). Why then can other repairs instantly get me up to 185% of normal speed - with an SNR of 6 rather than 16? I think the SNR can be reset if the engineer is BB-trained. Today, 12 hours after my most recent repair, my speed is still only 0.8mbps compared with a possible 3.4mbps when everything is working ok.

BTO have replaced one length of overhead cable at least five times for me alone (there are others in the cable bundle as well) but can't address the underlying cause because it's cheaper to replace the cable every time than re-route it.

When it's an underground fault it's often high resistance or other connection/equipment faults. My line connects direct to the exchange but via numerous poles and sumps where there are cable joins and which are damp. They are often close to a 60mph main road (which requires significant additional H&S procedures) so BTO prefers to avoid sorting out the cumulative resistances and leaves me with an unreliable, slow and noisy connection which if it were a consumer product I'd be able to return to the retailer and demand my money back.

My point is that B31, the OP, has got cable and other equipment serving his property that is quite possibly just old and in need of replacement and, because BTO operates as a monopoly supplier, there is no-one making sure they see to it. And as we cannot take our custom elsewhere, unless we happen to be in an area served by a cable company with their own, separate, infrastructure, we have a big problem.

Your ISP/Phone service supplier will not fight your corner as vigorously as you would for yourself and, as you have no direct contract with them, BTO they won't talk to you direct. My line can deliver 3.4mbps for days at a time but it's usually well below 2 and has been extremely unreliable over the past 3 months - with up to 150 dropouts every 24hrs in a bad period. 3 recent engineer visits have resolved the issue only temporarily, and then it starts over again, just like Groundhog Day.

The infrastructure that the engineers are working with is simply not up to the job, and the repair procedures they have to implement are sticking plaster jobs. With no way of putting pressure on BTO management I know I will have to repeat approaches to my MP, Ofcom and others, whose bark should be louder than my own. But I won't be holding my breath.

And I've not mentioned the similar problems that many other people in the village are having. Divide - via all our different ISPs who can't, or won't, talk to each other - and rule lives on in BTO's ivory tower.

Frustrating isn't it.

I've been talking to the MP about the issues for quite some time, still waiting for the road status to be sorted (discussed elsewhere on this forum).

Fault diagram now shows it as "4. Close to customers property"

So it seems to be flip flopping, I've seen it at 5, then 4, then 5 again and now 4 again!

I'll probably drop my MP an email tonight (want to see how the road adoption/super fast discussions are going anyway) and if the issue isn't fixed at the new estimate of Weds I'll start chasing people higher up at BT...

My phone line is now back up and running. Broadband working again too. Cheers for all the info everyone.

Just got to hope my speed increases now. Getting 0.15-0.20Mbps down.

Might ring BT in a bit ask for compensation and see if they can reset the speed (IP profile?)

Can you post all of your current stats - attenuation, sync, SNR for both Down and Up.

ADSL Line Status
Connection information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 day, 02:25:55
Downstream: 283 Kbps
Upstream: 444 Kbps

ADSL settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 7.3 dB / 12.4 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 60.5 dB / 33.6 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 18.0 dBm / 11.8 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 3115 / 285
CRC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0


Recorded line length to Exchange 4614m
CAB at least 800m away

Ta

Don't worry about a reset, it will soon rectify itself.

Perhaps, tomorrow morning at around 8:00 AM, power off the modem, but do not disconnect the line. After a couple of minutes, disconnect the line. Power the modem, wait another few minutes for it to fully boot and stabilise, then reconnect the line and see what sync you get.


What modem/hub do you currently have? For a line with 60dB attenuation you may be able to get one which works well on long lines.

It's the home hub 3 that came when I first took up the service.

They may well be slightly dated, however the BT Business Hub can perform very well on long lines. It can drag a little extra speed out and will hold the line as the SNR drops.

If you are willing to take a chance - look to see if you can buy a 2wire 2700HGV - typically around £10 (NOT the 2701 ...) It should work fine on a BT residential service - or may (but I don't think it does) need unlocking which is easy and well documented. The functionality as a router is much the same as the HH3 and I actually preferred it!

In reply to a post by MHC:

Don't worry about a reset, it will soon rectify itself.

Perhaps, tomorrow morning at around 8:00 AM, power off the modem, but do not disconnect the line. After a couple of minutes, disconnect the line. Power the modem, wait another few minutes for it to fully boot and stabilise, then reconnect the line and see what sync you get.

This reset procedure is interesting and not one that has been recommended to me before - I'm just told to switch off for a few seconds and switch on again. Is this time-of-day and more complex disconnect procedure better?

Also I don't understand the 'settling in' period (after a reset or other disconnection).

Why am I told, for connection speed reasons, to keep the router on at all times? I think it's because of the operation of dynamic line management (DLM) but ........

My (normally) 1.9mbps line can have an SNR reset done by my ISP and instantly its speed can jump up to 3.7mbps, and hold that speed for several days, until the exchange's software (DLM?) pulls it back to around 2mbps.

This past week, the engineer who restored my phone connection left behind yet another BB fault (hence my current speed of only 0.9mbps and, worse, an upload speed of only 0.08) That fault initially, and for more than 4 hours, showed up as a cityscape line graph of my sync speed/SNR - ie the router couldn't maintain a connection for more than a few seconds and constantly reconnected/disconnected.

When the ISP did another reset of my connection a couple of days later the result was the same, though this time the line settled down from being completely unusable in 'only' an hour or so.

It seems as though Openreach engineers can't identify the problem, or where it is, or - if they can - they can't/won't do anything about it. B31, and many others, seems to have the same kind of problem.

Is fault analysis and rectification really this difficult?

By powering off the modem, it realises the loss of power and sends a "last gasp" message to the DSLAM telling it that there is a power failure. The DSLAM should note this and not react in the same way as a line disconnection due to noise or similar and hence it will not cause a downgrade in speed. By restarting the modem before connection,also means that there is nothing else happening at connection apart from trying to establish sync.

As for time of day - a couple of hours after sunrise has always shown to give the best sync speed.


And yes, try to keep teh modem on permanently - and if you need to disconnect do it the way suggested to avoid DLM.

Is fault analysis and rectification really this difficult?

If looking for an incredibly minor fault, then yes.

Couldn't you just login onto the modem/router and click on the disconnect button wait a few seconds and then un plug it?
By clicking on the disconnect button your telling the other end that you are going and the other end shouldn't react when you unplug it.

Paul

Not all have such a feature, quite a few do not. Some allow you to reboot and that is all. And does it actually fully disconnect? or does it leave the line in sync with no session established?

In reply to a post by MHC:

Not all have such a feature, quite a few do not. Some allow you to reboot and that is all. And does it actually fully disconnect? or does it leave the line in sync with no session established?

Oh, I had the impression that they all had the disconnect feature.
I know our HH4 (Type A) does, also our other modem/router has 2 disconnect buttons one that disconnects the connection however stays synced up (i.e. we keep our gateway/connection IP) and another button that closes that connection.

Paul

BT Business Hubs certainly don't. There are resets which include <Reset IP/PPP>, <Reset Broadband> but no disconnect/logout ...

And it is often easier to say "Do it this way" rather than "which modem/hub", wait for answer and then go through the process. The Dying Gasp should work in all cases

In reply to a post by MHC:

BT Business Hubs certainly don't'

Just being pedantic really but, Business Hub 3 here certainly does, right on the home screen, top button in 'My Services' section.

In reply to a post by MHC:

BT Business Hubs certainly don't. There are resets which include <Reset IP/PPP>, <Reset Broadband> but no disconnect/logout ...

And it is often easier to say "Do it this way" rather than "which modem/hub", wait for answer and then go through the process. The Dying Gasp should work in all cases

This is true.

Paul

Which proves the point ... every one is different!

My speeds seem to be normalising now. I did the disconnect thing this morning, but even at lunchtime it was still slow.

I'm now getting 1.29 - 1.45 Mbps down (3 tests) 0.09 - 0.31 up.

Also looks like I'll go over my 4G allowance, likely to be charged £6.50 for an extra 500MB. Billing cycle stats on the 11th... Drat.


Connection information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 day, 01:51:33
Downstream: 1,683 Kbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps

ADSL settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 7.3 dB / 15.3 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 60.5 dB / 33.6 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 16.9 dBm / 11.4 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 33 / 0

I'd say the downstream sync was a little low for that attenuation ?

Possibly still resetting itself?

I've just got 1.70 Mbps down and 0.22 up

I'm now seeing the fastest speeds I've ever seen on my BT line.

2.31 - 2.52 Mbps down and 0.63 - 0.95 Mbps up (over 6 tests).


Connection information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 1 day, 21:58:04
Downstream: 2,359 Kbps
Upstream: 720 Kbps

ADSL settings

VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 3.3 dB / 6.1 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 60.5 dB / 33.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 18.1 dBm / 11.8 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 3734 / 128
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
HEC Errors (Down/Up): 4126 / 54
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 86

Is that with the HH3 installed?

I can see that te Down SNR is at 3dB so you need to watch that - it should hold OK.

As I mentioned before ... have you thought about a 2wire 2700HGV? You may be able to drag a little more from te connection with additional stability.

Yeah still on the HH3.

I'll see how it goes for now, rather than buy a new router.

Bit annoyed with Vodafone

I took out an extra data pack, by phone, as I was very close to the limit.

I didn't use it, but I'm not too fussed with that.

When I went to cancel, it said the last charge would be on the next bill - so I'm being charged for two months when I needed it for none.

The guy on the phone said I could cancel it at any time, but didn't say when I'd need to cancel it.

I took it out on the last day of my contract - apparently I'd also need to cancel it on that day too, in order to be charged once!

Hmmm.