Post Office / Open Reach broken line woes...

Yesterday I had a call from a relative who had been on a visit to my parents to let me know their phone line had been broken by a falling tree. They had managed to cut the tree and clear the road and asked me to report it for them.

My parents are elderly (dad is 90) and live in a remote area in Wales 200 miles from me.

Their line is with the Post Office...
After managing to find a number to report it and explaining the situation they said I would need to contact BT.
I asked if they were sure as I thought the provider needed to deal with things like this, but they assured me they couldn't help and I need to call BT.

I called the BT Open Reach number they provided (0800 023 2023) which sounded like an overseas call centre when I called.
They kept saying that they could only help with "safety issues" - I explained the line was on the ground etc. etc. He said all the engineer would do is make the area safe and not fix anything!?!
He told me to phone another BT dept. on 0800 800 150. I asked if he was sure that's correct as their provider is the Post Office. He assured me that was the number to call. It's an automatic system that asked for the affected number - it immediately informed me that it wasn't a recognised BT number and either it or me hung up!

I called the Post Office back up and explained things again. They apologised and said they would deal with it if my dad accepted any possible charges. I explained (again) that he wasn't able to be contacted so I would accept them on his behalf. That could only be done if he instructs them first - and we just went round in circles.

I asked them to test the line and they couldn't see a fault.
I let them know how disappointed I was and said let's hope there's not an emergency and this all ends up in the papers...
That was the end of the call.

A few minutes later the PO called me back and they had retested the line and could now see a fault and would report it.

Today reading the Open Reach website and also BT's website they list the first number I mention above to report damage on - and not just for "safety" issues. So I called again and just ignored the warnings about safety and just kept saying the phone line is on the ground. They said an engineer would visit within 4 hours. They gave me a call reference (something the PO couldn't manage to do). I asked if I could view the status online by using the reference - they just kept saying yes but you'll have to phone us. I gave up trying to explain what 'online' meant!

My Mum has just called via a mobile after walking to an area with coverage so she knows things have been reported.
It seems dealing with phone faults is harder than sending a man to the moon - there has to be a better way!
#Frustrating

The retailer should be earning their profit by taking the call off your hands once account checks are complete and liaising with Openreach who are the wholesaler.

If there are neighbours its worth making sure they've also reported a fault to their providers, since the more faults logged the more likely to get further up the list.

Hi MrSaffron,
No neighbours on this line I'm afraid.

BT OR engineer just called me while trying to find their location before his mobile lost signal. I'm hoping I got enough details through to him before the call dropped. So it looks like my OR call to report damage has worked.

The 'providers' should try calling these numbers themselves to see how their customers fair if they are interested in Customer Service!

In reply to a post by b4dger:

I called the Post Office back up and explained things again. They apologised and said they would deal with it if my dad accepted any possible charges. I explained (again) that he wasn't able to be contacted so I would accept them on his behalf. That could only be done if he instructs them first - and we just went round in circles.

Who owns the "offending tree"?

If it is not your parents (i.e. it is on the highway or where it crosses another property), I'm not certain that such charges would be valid!!

HTH

I'm not sure from the details I have - it sounds like flooding in a river that borders their property has undermined the tree that came down.

My own dealings with BT and trees on the line have never gone smoothly! But that has always been down to who owns the tree and who's going to pay for tree work.

This is a bit different where the tree is down and the service is out.
At the moment I'm not so worried about charges I just want them to have a phone connection!

A BT OR called at 3pm looking for the line, I'm hoping the details I got to him before getting cut off worked. At 5pm after not hearing any more I sent him a text asking how he got on - no reply so far.

I was just about to submit this when the BT OR engineer called!
He has "tied the cable to the pole to make it safe" - that's all he was asked to do and all he can do. "All jobs must come from the service providers".
He didn't even knock on the door of my 90 year old parents house...

I told him the full story - without much luck. All I could (eventually) get him to do was to escalate this to his management (which he said would be a waste of time) to explain there is a 90 year old couple without any outside means of communication and the reporting of the fault isn't going well!!!

In reply to a post by b4dger:

This is a bit different where the tree is down and the service is out.
At the moment I'm not so worried about charges I just want them to have a phone connection!

As others have suggested, from the information you have given, it sounds as if the Post Office have let your parents down.

Openreach are right in saying the fault reports should come through whoever the line rental is paid too.

In circumstances where 'vulnerable' customers are involved, many keep their line rental with BT to benefit from their Free Priority Fault Repair Scheme which means they do what they can to get a customers line back in service asap. A quick search reveals it looks like the Post Office have their own version of this scheme here

Of course, one is supposed to register for such schemes before a fault occurs..

Thank you. I will look at that.

Edited by b4dger (Thu 31-Dec-15 23:04:13)

I wonder if any of the contents are applicable-

https://www.btplc.com/Thegroup/RegulatoryandPublicaf...

Thanks again.

I've just been talking to the Post Office again and got a completely different level of service - at least verbally.

He confirmed that their original call handler shouldn't have asked me to call the BT 'damage' number and will be looking in to see why that happened.

My parents are obviously still without a phone line but at least he was able to give normal expected responses to my queries and the current state of play.

He also couldn't understand why BT would turn up and leave the cable tied to a pole rather than either fixing it and/or talking to the home owners.

I was also able to speak to him about help for the elderly and vulnerable.
This looks like it only makes them focus a bit more on the outstanding fault rather than being able to escalate anything within BT OR.

Edited by b4dger (Thu 31-Dec-15 20:28:04)

"He also couldn't understand why BT would turn up and leave the cable tied to a pole rather than either fixing it and/or talking to the home owners."

On a DRO (damage report other) we make safe and thats all we do . DROs go to the very top of the Q even above PWs ( private wires ) that cost £0000 as its a safety issue.

A shame he didn't have two minutes to knock on the door when working by a house in the middle of no-where. Also a shame that BT OR didn't provide him with notes to say this line belongs to vulnerable people as explained in my desperate call(s).

I've had a PM from a TBB regular who I won't name as I guess they PM'd for a reason...

"I know it is too late in this case however if there is a next time.
Consider moving your parents from PO back to BT. In situations like this it does become a lot easier to accept that it will be a little more expensive, but you would not have had all the hassle."

Is that right though?
I believe all dealings with Open Reach are 'supposed' to be the same whoever your provider is?
BT Retail would have just the same access to BT OR as the Post Office?

In reply to a post by b4dger:

I've had a PM from a TBB regular who I won't name as I guess they PM'd for a reason...

"I know it is too late in this case however if there is a next time.
Consider moving your parents from PO back to BT. In situations like this it does become a lot easier to accept that it will be a little more expensive, but you would not have had all the hassle."

Is that right though?
I believe all dealings with Open Reach are 'supposed' to be the same whoever your provider is?
BT Retail would have just the same access to BT OR as the Post Office?

The above is basically what I also suggested higher up in the thread.

The dealings with Openreach will be the same for all communication providers but I suspect that from reading the details/description of BT's Free Priority Fault Repair Scheme (i.e. "Under the scheme, we�ll give you priority over standard faults by dealing with them as soon as we can, every day of the year, including Christmas Day") is that if a customer qualifies BT Retail pay Openreach for a line to be covered by an enhanced SLA for faults - as their standard residential SLA does not cover public holidays etc. (see here for more details)

This differs from what the Post Office eventually told you about their support for elderly and vulnerable customers re: only making them focus a bit more on the outstanding fault rather than being able to escalate anything within BT OR.

There is also the question of training etc. for staff and if your first contact at BT Retail would have been better than the Post Office where you were effectively fobbed off the first time (you can also report faults online with BT Retail (and some other providers) rather than having to call them) which some may prefer.

Thats not to say BT Retail are perfect or that some other providers are not good at dealing with faults etc. but I have noticed some providers no longer offering 24/7 support to lodge faults (though the PO does I see)

I, along with many others have given up the the PO in times of problems. Their Customer Service is outsourced to Capita (I think) and all they do is read from the same old script every single time you call them and insist on doing the same test EVERY time (last year we called 23 times in 2 months). We had a problem on our line and they just did not want to help, then when a fault was found insisted - yes insisted we had to pay two lots of fees to have it fixed (we didn't and eventually after going to the ADR (disputes) we got the charge dropped - still awaiting an apology though).

They will not get OR out to fix faults unless they absolutely have to. When a neighbour had a squirrel (actually photographed) gnaw through their line the PO told them because they had a bird feeder out it was their fault for attracting the squirrel and would have to pay!! Needless to say they didnt!.
Oh and please don't expect a call back from a supervisor... look online and you will see thats what they always promise, but I've yet to see anyone who says they actually had a call back!

I believe all dealings with Open Reach are 'supposed' to be the same whoever your provider is?
BT Retail would have just the same access to BT OR as the Post Office?

Correct the difference however being that BT Retail would try and get the problem fixed whereas the Post Office don't appear to care for their customers as illustrated by your problems.

In reply to a post by b4dger:

I believe all dealings with Open Reach are 'supposed' to be the same whoever your provider is?

All providers have equal access to Openreach and all log their jobs via the same systems.

You have tried to circumvent a provider's fault reporting service by contacting Openreach directly and advising of an issue that is a matter of public health and safety. Openreach will respond quickly to issues such as cables or street furniture that poses a risk to health and they will make sure that the public are not at risk. This is not a fault reporting service.

I can tell you that the vast majority of people will tell you a myriad of reasons why they are a priority and why they need to jump the queue. Age, disability, running a business, children, urgent conference call, they are an MP, they are an alcoholic etc.

Providers offer products that offer tighter service levels. If the phone line is extremely important to people, then they need to look into these products.

Edited by deleted (Fri 01-Jan-16 21:53:37)

In reply to a post by partial:

You have tried to circumvent your provider's fault reporting service by contacting Openreach directly and advising of an issue that is a matter of public health and safety. Openreach will respond quickly to issues such as cables or street furniture that poses a risk to health and they will make sure that the public are not at risk. This is not a fault reporting service.

Please see early posts it was actually the Post Office who were insisting I should contact OR!
If I had believed their bad advice my parents line fault wouldn't even be in the queue.


Thanks for all the comments people it's all useful stuff.

Have the post office given a date for an engineer visit now?

Hi, I'm afraid not.
They are telling me the ticket is still waiting for OR to reply and has 2 days, 12 hours to run. I asked if that is normal for OR not to have given a date and he said it was and there was nothing that could be done until OR reply.

They confirmed that OR are aware that there is a network fault outstanding.

The Post Office have this marked as a 'welfare' case with high priority.

In reply to a post by gt94sss2:

The dealings with Openreach will be the same for all communication providers but I suspect that from reading the details/description of BT's Free Priority Fault Repair Scheme (i.e. "Under the scheme, we�ll give you priority over standard faults by dealing with them as soon as we can, every day of the year, including Christmas Day") is that if a customer qualifies BT Retail pay Openreach for a line to be covered by an enhanced SLA for faults...

Hi @gt94sss2,
I've been looking at the BT documentation you linked to earlier - thanks again for that.
...and thanks to ThinkBroadBand and all it's members for their help and suggestions as getting this sorted would be even more painful without this place!

I'll have to get through this current problem and then have a chat to my parents about their options.
I know I'll probably have some problems getting my independent parents to get their doctor to help them with the sign-up criteria though!
And I'm not sure if being a frail 90 year old will 'be enough' but hopefully it is.

BT
The Free Priority Fault Repair Scheme is available if your household includes someone at risk. They must meet the criteria below.
You can apply if you:
� rent your line from BT and you, or someone who lives with you, are:
� registered as Chronically Sick & Disabled by your local authority social services under the Chronically Sick & Disabled Persons Act (CSDPA) 1970
� incapacitated and therefore housebound, due to a chronic long-term illness or disability which prevents you leaving the house without the assistance of another person. For example, on the National Organ Transplant waiting list.

Here's a link to the Post Office's own version of this: http://www.postoffice.co.uk/broadband-mobile/vulnera...

Edited by b4dger (Sat 02-Jan-16 13:04:08)

In reply to a post by b4dger:

And I'm not sure if being a frail 90 year old will 'be enough' but hopefully it is.

It's worth pushing it. Had a problem with my Mum who is 88 - electrics blew on a Friday and told someone would come on Tuesday to fix it. Rang electricity co. and told them it was an emergency as she had not hot water or heating (and this was late November). They backed down and it was fixed by the next day.

In reply to a post by MrSaffron:

The retailer should be earning their profit by taking the call off your hands once account checks are complete and liaising with Openreach who are the wholesaler.

FYI This has shown it's more than just 'taking the call off my hands' - all the Open Reach call can achieve is getting lines/poles/cabinets/etc. made "safe" and won't help getting service restored!

In reply to a post by b4dger:

FYI This has shown it's more than just 'taking the call off my hands' - all the Open Reach call can achieve is getting lines/poles/cabinets/etc. made "safe" and won't help getting service restored!

Openreach are the ones who will fix the fault/restore servce - but they need the Post Office to properly lodge it first - which is effectively all they needed to do.

You should never have been told or needed to call Openreach who don't deal with members of the public - unless there is a safety/health issue involved - hence they making the line safe.

You can't blame the OR engineer for only doing his job, if he had spoken to your parents and fixed their line, he would be breaching the rules (imposed by the regulators) as well as doing something he had not been tasked to do.

Openreach did recently suggest that they would be more willing to deal directly with members of the public rather than just the communication providers (who are their customers) but some of the CP's objected.

They are telling me the ticket is still waiting for OR to reply and has 2 days, 12 hours to run. I asked if that is normal for OR not to have given a date and he said it was and there was nothing that could be done until OR reply.

The response you have got from the Post Office imho is that they are still not escalating your case sufficently as I imagine there are ways they can escalate the fault with Openreach rather than just waiting for a ticket to be updated (perhaps the PO picking up the phone to speak to them etc.)

I'm aware of how the Post Office 'should' have dealt with my first call - I did all I could to tell them that me phoning Open Reach can't be the correct advice...

In reply to a post by gt94sss2:

You can't blame the OR engineer for only doing his job, if he had spoken to your parents and fixed their line, he would be breaching the rules (imposed by the regulators) as well as doing something he had not been tasked to do.

I DO blame him for not calling at the house which is in the middle of no-where and after I had told him my 90 year old dad depends on this phone line and that there is no other means of communication with the outside world!

The least he could have done was spend two minutes explaining to them that the phone line that crosses the road to their house is broken, but gone on to explain how it will be fixed. He was a 'jobs worth'

Regarding the PO escalating the fault - I can assure you I've tried/pleaded for them to do more!!!

Edited by b4dger (Sun 03-Jan-16 17:46:42)

I DO blame him for not calling at the house which is in the middle of no-where and after I had told him my 90 year old dad depends on this phone line and that there is no other means of communication with the outside world!

Sorry but you did not tell him anything at all ! You told someone in a call centre so you can not know want he had on his job notes . As for just being a jobsworth well thats the way OR works .

He phoned me when looking for the location, I had the chance then to tell him some details...

Ok thanks , lets hope it gets sorted asap would be nice if you get some good news on Monday .

(damage report other)

Damage Report Overhead surely Bert ? As in DRU damage report underground.

This weeks updates - 90 year old dad still without a phone line!

Even though the PO have this marked as a "high priory welfare case" the only updates I've received are by me phoning them up each day...

4/1/16
Line should be fixed by the 7th. OR have acknowledged the fault.

5/1/16
OR tried phoning my parents mobile - they have no mobile signal where they live as explained previously.
All calls should be coming to me. On the 4th OR have updated the fault saying a hoist is required (the line crosses a road) and one isn't currently available.
I asked why I haven't had any updates - the PO notice that my parents account is marked as high priority but the actual open fault hadn't been - he's changed that.

6/1/16
I chased the PO for today's update. Again I received apologies for the way this has been dealt with. I said I have apologies every day but no actual action. He volunteered to contact OR directly for an update and get back to me. When I had previously asked the PO to do this I was told they couldn't. He phoned me back as promised. OR are due to visit the site tomorrow and the PO have promised to update me.

I've posted a letter (first class) so my parents are aware they haven't been abandoned

The PO called me for an update today - first time that's happened!

BT OR turned up today and have reported that some tree work is required and also traffic control will be needed to cross the road. They have given a date of the 14th for this work. Another week...

BT OR have been on site twice before so it's a shame that wasn't picked up earlier either on New Years Eve or the engineer visit on the 4th.

I asked the PO to find out (as it wasn't clear in the notes) whether BT had knocked on my parents door to update them.
The PO called BT OR for me and were told that as the fault wasn't within the property they wouldn't have tried contacting them!
This was after all parties have been made aware this is for a 90 year old couple with no other means of communication with the outside world...

Terrific customer service! I've posted another letter today to explain to my parents how their 'service providers' are getting on

Good to hear progress is now being made, even if slow. Hopefully the Royal Mail doesn't let them down and fail to deliver the letters.

My mum just phoned via her mobile - she has to go about 1/2 mile to get a signal.
My letters arrived (both in the same post* unfortunately) so I was able to ask her to phone me and give her an update on the PO and OR 'progress'.

*EDIT By the way it's the Royal Mail that deliver letters a totally separate company from the Post Office. I know this as a good percentage of the PO's twitter feed is informing people of this...

"Yes mum you'll have to have your mobile switched on if you want me to call you when you go to the shops!"

She did see the BT vans parked on her drive yesterday. But by the time she had got herself organised to go outside they had disappeared! It's not easy being old!

Nice one BT, turn up and park in your customer's (yes, via the PO as the public aren't your direct customers and aren't allowed to contact you directly as you are *special*!) drive and then leave without updating the home owners
Both the PO and BT OR have in their notes this is a welfare case bla bla bla.

My parents bought a new PC just before Xmas which had one of these cashback offers where you have to submit your claim within a certain window. This period started after they lost their phone and only lasts for 20 days, so I could see they could miss out on a £100 from Lenovo if they weren't careful! At least by writing I've been able to get the required serial number etc. and submit the claim for them!

Edited by b4dger (Fri 08-Jan-16 17:59:43)

when BT turns up make sure they can't leave until they fix the job as this is a welfare case they should get the job done on the first or second call out no excuses (they will drive off silently if the job takes to long as they done it twice to me)

it might be easier for you to just move to BT and get it sorted out as a new customer (make sure they have all the notes, new phone Drop cable is needed) as each time its adding 1-2 weeks to not fix the problem

Edited by leexgx (Sat 09-Jan-16 15:35:04)

So wrong ! If OP jumps ship now and orders a new line he ( or his parents ) go to the back of the Q.

"make sure they can't leave" is that not illegal ?

Edited by MC31 (Sun 10-Jan-16 11:03:03)

Had a punter lock me in her property once, insisting that she wouldn't let me go until I had fixed it ......

Two previous engineers had 'left without doing anything' previously apparently,

In fact what they had done was A prove the fault to the buried lead in, tag in the last joint as required, B the second came to do the track and mark for the dig. All perfectly correct. Me, as the third cam to sort out the new lead in cable, joint through etc. External work which I couldn't do whilst locked in her property. Nutty bint.

Every day I call the PO and am told similar things - another 5 working days etc. so time is just slipping past!

It seems BT OR are still preparing paperwork to ask for permission for traffic control to work in the the road. I've been told the same sort of thing for a week or so.

Again pleaded with the PO to escalate - but they are now saying it's all with BT OR and there's nothing that can be done. I've just called the Council Highways dept. to see if they are aware of the request - they can't see it in the system.

I've tried calling the PO back (as obviously I can't talk directly with BT OR) and they've changed their number (03456003210) to play a recorded message about general on-going faults which then terminates the call after the message so you can't actually talk to anyone!!!

If you're a Twitter user, https://twitter.com/PostOffice might get something moving, as it's public.

Also telling their local newspaper about it may get a rapid result.

Or try your parents' MP. He/She may even have a surgery in the constituency tomorrow.

Yes, I've been using Twitter since this started. In the last hour they've asked I email them and provided an address etc.

Just a quick update as I've run out of energy for today...

This has gone from bad to worse!

After hinting last week that work would be starting today The Post Office informed me today that BT Openreach won't be replacing the phone line until 17th February.

Apparently BTOR told the PO that as there are two people living at the house it isn't an urgent welfare case. These two people are my frail and unwell 90 year old dad and my elderly mum just a few years behind him!

To say I'm disappointed with The Post Office is an understatement, and the contact arrangements (or lack of) for them and Openreach when situations like this arise are a joke...

Though the Post Office could likely be better at communication in this case they are at the mercy of BTOR.

17th Feb sounds a lot longer than even normal lead times for these sort of repairs, anybody else have more info around that?

As I said earlier. Local newspaper and/or MP. The first can lead to nationals, the latter slower put can really put the boot in.

Have you tried the Openreach and BT Group CEO email addresses on these forums?

Edited by RobertoS (Mon 18-Jan-16 21:29:43)

I've contacted their MP and am waiting for their reply.

Can someone point me to the current BT CEO address as I'll certainly try that?
Thanks.

Group CEO - [email protected]

Thanks, I've also emailed Paula Vennells the Post Office CEO.

Another suggestion: [email protected] (see http://www.theguardian.com/uk/money)

My wife has made another suggestion: have you raised the situation with their GP?

Thanks for both of those suggestions jelv.

Quick update...
My Mum ended up having to call for help last week late at night by walking half a mile down a county road to find the nearest mobile signal. I sent one final email to the people I had contacted - PO CEO, BTOR CEO, PO complaints, Council Highways and the MP telling them all my family had been badly let down by the PO before going to my parents 200 miles away.

The line was replaced on Sunday - just took 45 mins.

The PO know I'll be back in contact to discuss their failings, but for now I'm focusing on helping my Mum and Dad...

Sorry to hear it came to that. Glad it's now resolved, took longer than it should have.

Do you know it was you emailed for a final time that kicked things into action?

Well done. But what an unforgivable position the PO and Openreach put your parents in!!!

Any developments in terms of an explanation or apology from the PO.

In reply to a post by philippercival:

Any developments in terms of an explanation or apology from the PO.

Hi thanks for asking.

I'm too busy to get back to the PO for their many failings over this - I keep telling them I want to focus on my parents and not a phone line fault.

When things improve (or move on) I will get back to them.

My last communication was letting them know the line was working and I asked that they added me as a "Delegated Authority" to my parents line. I had a reply from my senior PO bod saying this had been done.

A few days later I phoned the PO (accounts) to arrange for my parents bill to be changed to a Direct Debit to save them from writing a cheque to pay the bill. I was disappointed (but not surprised) to find that I hadn't been added as a Delegated Authority...

Yes, the Post Office are worse than useless!

I have been trying to sort a relatives phone/BB which has died, and was told that there was already an open fault on the line and therefore they could not do anything about it. When I asked what and when, they said that they could not tell me as I was not a nominated person on the account. to put me on the account, the relatives would have to ring or go on line, which they agreed was a little difficult if the phone is not working.

May be your parents are the only ones who can add you as being able to control the account. Next time you visit, why not sit down with them and do the same for electricity, banks, etc.

In reply to a post by philippercival:

I have been trying to sort a relatives phone/BB which has died, and was told that there was already an open fault on the line and therefore they could not do anything about it. When I asked what and when, they said that they could not tell me as I was not a nominated person on the account. to put me on the account, the relatives would have to ring or go on line, which they agreed was a little difficult if the phone is not working.

May be your parents are the only ones who can add you as being able to control the account. Next time you visit, why not sit down with them and do the same for electricity, banks, etc.

That's not exactly true, all I do when I phone BT is tell them the phone number I am referring to and also to confirm the full address and the name of the owner of the line, granted I am on that said line, but I also tell them that its my parents phone line and broadband and that I deal with all the technical side of things.

And they are all fine with that, there is no asking of me to get my parents to the phone nothing.

And due to the state of our line here I do this on a regular bases.

Paul

really depends on who you're talking to (normally they ask for the owner of the line at that point if you state your not the owner, why i norm get that info before calling them)

if you know all the details you can just pretend youre them (they would of asked for information so just make sure you have that to hand or you don't know the password they norm ask for DD information)

Well I must be lucky then, because every time I have phoned them and that is a load of times, especially in the last couple of years, I have stated its my parents line and broadband that I look after due to they are not technical people, and they that's fine and ask me all the basic questions, phone number, full address and bill payers name etc.

TBH, I have never been asked to get any of my parents on the phone.

Like I said I must be lucky.

Paul

It occurs to me that you never said where your parents are apart from its a remote location in Wales.

I believe Openreach declared North Wales as a MBORC (Matters Beyond Our Reasonable Control) area at the end of last year due to the severe weather/flooding experienced there.

Usually MBORC's only last a few days but it think that the North Wales one may exceptionally still be in effect.

Even then, that doesn't excuse the PO for their continuous poor handling of your parents case - and it's the type of situation where properly marking a case as a welfare one would be even more important than normal

Edited by gt94sss2 (Sun 14-Feb-16 12:52:42)

Hi, They are nearer to Brecon so not affected by any MBORC.